Jonathan Bell
Strangford · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I did so because terminally ill children were being prevented from getting a hospital place in my area. While attempts were being made to prevent me from coming to the Public Accounts Committee, a terminally ill child was told, after being seen by doctors, that they could not have a hospital place and that, if they needed one, they would…”
“The permanent secretary replied "No" and said that everybody would recognise that every government worked by and on collective responsibility. <BR /> <BR />We are in a mess, and somebody has to shine a light on that mess. It fell to me, and I do not know why. I did not seek it, nor did I want it. I did not want to do it.”
“Let me conclude, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker. The regulations are necessary because of the extreme mess that we have found ourselves in. The points that I made when I had to shine a light on this devastating situation were not made in December. The points were made in writing to the then First Minister in March 2016.”
“The permanent secretary replied, "Well, that is right". <BR /> <BR />There were no regulations on the table when I spoke out. There was no suggestion that we could reduce to zero or even significantly reduce the costs, and we had no legal procedure, that I was aware of, that we could have followed.”
“But I cannot speak authoritatively because, even after the Public Accounts Committee meeting, when I asked the permanent secretary last week whether I could come and see the information that, I believe, legally should be made available to me, I got no reply. Nothing.”
“The second objective that I wanted to achieve was to stop the haemorrhage of public funds. Let us not pretend that the money is still to be spent: tens of millions of pounds of taxpayers' money has already been spent — £85,000 a day, day by day, as we go along.”
The complete record
Every one of 1,174 lines we hold for Jonathan Bell, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 23 of 24.
“We understand from the Treasury that, under the new scheme, 80% of people will be better off, which, potentially, if we take into account the 1,000, leaves us with a figure in the region of 200 people who may be worse off. <BR /> <BR />The point was raised also about children over 12 years of age. The research that I have noted, by RSM McClure Watters, indicates that only around 6·5% of childcare providers provide for children who are over 12. Many of those are for disabled children and, as I have taken pains to point out, disabled children up to age 17 are included in the new scheme. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate the work that Mickey Brady has done. He spoke to me formally in the Chamber and indicated his concern that childcare providers should be registered.”
“Therefore, when it became clear that tax-free childcare was neither a tax nor a duty and was thus a transferred matter, the OFMDFM Committee was engaged after OFMDFM Ministers and the Executive agreed to promote a legislative consent motion on the matter. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate the concern that the Committee had, as elucidated by its Chairman, Mr Nesbitt, on the potential for disadvantage. Currently, if we take some of the information that we got from Employers For Childcare — I share in the compliments paid on the excellent work that it and the other groups have done — we are looking at around 1,000 people a year being recruited under what would have been the old scheme.”
“<BR /> <BR />In early 2014, devolved officials were approached by Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs about the need for a legislative consent motion to implement tax-free childcare here. That communication indicated that the Home Office legal advisers branch and Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs legal advisers were both of the view that the tax-free childcare scheme may be within the competence of the Northern Ireland Assembly. Officials took legal advice from the Departmental Solicitor's Office, which confirmed that the proposed tax-free childcare scheme did not fall within the excepted fields, as provided by schedule 2 to the Northern Ireland Act 1998. That was communicated to OFMDFM Ministers on 18 March 2014.”
“Her Majesty's Treasury launched the public consultation on the coalition Government's plans to introduce tax-free childcare in August 2013. The consultation document sought views on the design and operation of the proposed new tax-free childcare scheme. Immediately prior to that launch, the relevant UK Minister wrote to alert the Northern Ireland Administration to the fact that the Government would be publishing a consultation document on tax-free childcare. The letter stated that tax-free childcare was a reserved matter and, as such, would be delivered by the UK Government on a UK-wide basis. It did, however, welcome contributions from officials during the consultation period. At that point, the issue was not a devolved matter, just as the employer-supported childcare scheme is not a devolved matter.”
“The Bill will make a valuable contribution to enabling more working parents to access financial support to help with their childcare costs. Some Members raised concerns about the specifics of the new tax-free childcare scheme and on the way in which it will be implemented. I will do my best to respond to each of the points raised. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the positive comments that the Chairman of the OFMDFM Committee made. It was a very difficult, tight time frame for all of us, and I think that we tried, formally and informally, to get through it as best we could. I am aware that the Committee expressed its disappointment that it was not consulted earlier about the tax-free childcare scheme, so let me try to explain why.”
“I start by saying a sincere word of thanks to Mr Nesbitt, the Chairman of the Committee for the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister, Stephen Moutray, Mr Brady, Mr Attwood, Mr Lyttle and Ms Bronwyn McGahan for their contribution to the debate. <BR /> <BR />Given the impact that the Childcare Payments Bill can have on working families, I am not surprised by the interest shown by Members. Indeed, it reflects the scrutiny that was given to this by the OFMDFM Committee when the legislative consent motion was in Committee. From listening to what everybody said, it is fairly safe to say that the vast majority of the Members who spoke agree that more needs to be done to support families with childcare costs.”
“It is intended to launch consultation on the childcare strategy by the end of 2014, with the aim of developing a draft final strategy for publication in 2015. I appreciate that the Assembly would normally look at legislation and legislative competence in that area. However, I hope that Members agree that we are right to go ahead with this legislative consent motion on this occasion. If we agree the legislative consent motion, working parents will be able to claim support from government with their childcare costs in the same way as those who live in England, Scotland and Wales. I therefore commend the motion to the House.”
“Nevertheless, in recognition of the Committee's recommendation, OFMDFM will seek to estimate the numbers likely to be affected and the scale of the disadvantage. Any findings will inform the ongoing development of the Bright Start childcare strategy. Work to develop the full, final Bright Start childcare strategy is under way. Officials are engaging with the main childcare stakeholders to develop a consultation document that includes firm policy proposals for childcare.”
“Therefore, any potential disadvantage will arise only after the introduction of tax-free childcare, when some parents may compare the two schemes and find that employer-supported childcare would have offered a higher level of support had it still been available to them. Employers For Childcare has called on OFMDFM to develop a separate funding scheme for employees whose employers participate in the employer-supported childcare scheme and who will not be able to access the scheme after it is closed to new entrants. <BR /> <BR />We wish to avoid creating a complex and unfair two-tiered system, with those who would have qualified for employer-supported childcare receiving a different level of support.”
“Some families will receive less support in the new scheme than in employer-supported childcare, specifically because the new scheme is more fairly targeted. However, as I indicated, those families will not lose out, because they will be able to continue in their existing scheme. Parents who currently benefit under employer-supported childcare and who prefer to remain in that scheme can continue to do so after the introduction of tax-free childcare. The new tax-free childcare scheme will offer support based on the number of children as opposed to the number of qualifying parents. So, it will be much fairer than employer-supported childcare, in which lone parents can receive half the level of support of couples. <BR /> <BR />The current system will be closed to new entrants only.”
“There are, for example, 116,000 self-employed people in Northern Ireland, which is 5,000 more than in 2011. That is a significant and growing section of our workforce. The self-employed were ineligible under the employer-supported childcare scheme but are eligible under tax-free childcare. <BR /> <BR />I said that I would return to the recommendation in the Committee for the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister's report of 1 October. For the benefit of Members who may not have seen the report, the Committee strongly recommends that OFMDFM seek to identify the categories of people who may be disadvantaged under the new tax-free childcare scheme and, where appropriate, ensure that their needs are addressed in the wider childcare strategy.”
“Those who favour the current arrangements should bear in mind that access to that scheme is totally reliant upon employers participating. <BR /> <BR />It is estimated that around 11,000 parents in Northern Ireland are in receipt of childcare vouchers. In contrast, tax-free childcare will be available to all working families, provided, of course, that they meet the eligibility criteria, and not just to those whose employers participate in the employer-supported childcare scheme. It will also be open to parents who are self-employed. That means that self-employed parents and those working for employers who did not offer the employer-supported childcare will have access to childcare support for the first time. As such, tax-free childcare will be open to more families than the current scheme is.”
“Alongside wider guidance and information, Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs will provide an easy-to-use online tool for parents choosing between different Government schemes. Parents will be able to enter details about their personal circumstances and quickly see what support they may be entitled to and how much they can get. Members will wish to note that Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs has already published the first tranche of draft guidance for using the tax-free childcare scheme, well ahead of its introduction. The introduction of tax-free childcare will extend financial support to working parents on a fairer, more equal basis than the current employer-supported childcare scheme. The new scheme, like the current scheme, will be fully funded by the Treasury.”
“As the current scheme is funded through tax and national insurance contribution reliefs, the scheme, therefore, is an excepted matter. As a consequence, the Assembly has no authority over the coalition Government's decision to phase out the scheme. However, I wish to make it clear that those parents who are already in employer-supported childcare will be able to stay in the scheme for as long as they remain with the same employer and the employer continues to offer the scheme. It is expected that employers intend to carry on offering childcare vouchers to existing staff once the exemption is closed to new claims. <BR /> <BR />It is important that parents make good choices about the right childcare funding for them.”
“<BR /> <BR />Members may wish to note that there has been a legal challenge from some current childcare voucher providers concerning the decision to appoint National Savings and Investments as the account provider for tax-free childcare. I understand that the coalition Government are still working to their original timetable, but clearly implementation is subject to legal proceedings and the timetable that that dictates. <BR /> <BR />When tax-free childcare is introduced, the current employer-supported childcare scheme will be closed to new entrants. The coalition Government announced their decision to remove the tax exemption and national insurance contributions disregard associated with employer-supported childcare in the Budget of 2013.”
“Parents will be required to reconfirm eligibility at the end of the three-month entitlement period. <BR /> <BR />As I mentioned earlier, childcare accounts will be central to the delivery of the new scheme. Her Majesty's Treasury has appointed National Savings and Investments, an executive agency of Her Majesty's Treasury, as the scheme's account provider. Having a single provider will mean that parents will not need to choose between, negotiate with or pay fees to account providers. Instead, they will engage with government as a single point of contact to register for tax-free childcare, make payments into their account and arrange payments to their childcare providers. Subject to the Childcare Payments Bill receiving Royal Assent, the new tax-free childcare scheme is expected to become available from autumn 2015.”
“It is worth emphasising that multiple people or parties will be able to pay into those childcare accounts. That will enable all parents to make contributions, as well as giving other family members, or parents' employers, the opportunity to contribute. Parents will be able to withdraw money from their childcare account should they wish to do so, with their contributions returned to them and the Government's top-ups returned to Government. <BR /> <BR />Tax-free childcare will operate through quarterly entitlement periods. That means that parents will not be required to report changes to their personal circumstances in real time. Once eligible, parents will be entitled to support for three months regardless of any changes in personal circumstances that they may experience.”
“Eligible parents will be able to open a childcare account online, pay money towards their childcare costs into that account and have payments automatically topped up by government. Government top-up payments will be at a rate of £2·00 for every £8·00 that the family pays in, subject to a maximum of £2,000 government support per child per year. So, to be clear, that means that the actual amount of the government top-up payment that parents will receive is entirely dependent on how much money they pay into that account. <BR /> <BR />Parents will then allocate that money to the childcare provider or providers of their choice, with the account provider making the payment direct to the childcare provider.”
“<BR /> <BR />To be eligible for tax-free childcare, both parents, or a lone parent, must be in paid work, employed or self-employed, and both must meet a minimum income level. It is worth emphasising that working families on lower incomes already receive more generous support towards their childcare costs through the childcare element of working tax credit. As household income increases, support from tax credits is gradually tapered away, meaning that parents could be better off claiming tax-free childcare. However, they cannot claim both. <BR /> <BR />So, how will tax-free childcare work? Central to the delivery of the new scheme will be childcare accounts. It is a bit like a bank account, but government will top up any money that parents put into that account.”
“It will be a new targeted system of support to help working families with the cost of registered childcare and will particularly help parents who wish to take up paid work or increase their working hours. <BR /> <BR />In essence, tax-free childcare will offer working families 20% support towards their childcare costs. That is the equivalent of basic rate tax relief. Support will be available to children under the age of 12, whose childcare costs are often the highest. Parents of children with disabilities will continue to be eligible for tax-free childcare until their child is 17 years old, in recognition of the fact that childcare costs for that group can remain high in later years.”
“The first call for applications resulted in 50 successful applications, representing funding of £1·9 million over a three-year period. That will create 326 new childcare places and sustain around 1,160 existing places. In addition, there are a number of projects being supported under the strategic investment fund, which will increase childcare capacity across the investment zones. <BR /> <BR />With regard to the affordability of childcare, we said in the Bright Start strategic framework that we would keep a watching brief on the coalition Government's plans to introduce a new tax-free childcare scheme targeted at working families. The Childcare Payments Bill provides the statutory basis for the introduction of tax-free childcare.”
“That decision is very much a personal one, but parents should not be deterred from returning to work by the high cost of childcare. <BR /> <BR />Members will be aware that the current Programme for Government commits the Executive to publish and implement a childcare strategy to provide integrated and affordable childcare. In September 2013, we launched the first phase of the Bright Start childcare strategy. That phase sets out the strategic direction for the strategy, along with 15 key first actions, some of which are aimed at improving the availability of childcare and building up capacity in the childcare market. <BR /> <BR />It is worth saying that, in March, we launched a school-age childcare grant scheme to increase the supply of childcare places.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Childcare Payments Bill was introduced in the House of Commons on 5 June 2014. The Bill completed its Committee Stage last week and will now return to the Floor of the Commons for its Report Stage. It is worth reminding Members that the deadline for securing Assembly approval to the legislative consent motion is the last day for the tabling of amendments for Report Stage in the Commons. Report Stage is expected to take place shortly. <BR /> <BR />Many parents, today, want or indeed need to work. However, finding reliable, quality, affordable childcare is a major concern for working families. I am fully aware of the pressures that there are on family budgets and of the demands that make it hard for parents to decide whether to stay at home or go to work.”
“I am delighted to address the House on what is a very important issue for working parents in Northern Ireland. The First Minister and deputy First Minister laid a legislative consent memorandum before the Assembly on 23 June, which sought the support for a legislative consent motion to extend the provisions of the Westminster Childcare Payments Bill to Northern Ireland and to make the operation of the legislation an excepted matter. The legislative consent motion was formally referred to the OFMDFM Committee for consideration and to enable it to make a report to the Assembly. The Committee's report was published on 1 October. I welcome the Committee's decision to support the legislative consent motion. However, the Committee included a specific recommendation in its report, and I want to return to that shortly.”
“Any expansion of undergraduate numbers beyond what has already been achieved would require additional recurring funding that, I understand, the Department for Employment and Learning currently does not have. <BR /> <BR />An economic appraisal for the expansion of Magee is being prepared by the Londonderry Strategy Board. The Employment and Learning Minister proposes, if the appraisal makes the case that expansion is in the best interests of Northern Ireland and the city, to submit a bid in the next comprehensive spending review.”
“The issue of the expansion of the University of Ulster at Magee is important. The Minister for Employment and Learning recognised that the One Plan foresaw the expansion of higher education in Londonderry as key to the city's regeneration. He is committed to the expansion of higher education throughout Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />The One Plan had an additional target of having 1,000 additional undergraduate places by 2015. The Minister for Employment and Learning has been able to increase the number of undergraduate places in the two universities by 1,210. The University of Ulster has received 652, and those have been deployed at Magee.”
“Progress continues to be made on the implementation of the One Plan across each of the catalyst programmes to grow the economy and provide more local jobs.”
“A number of meetings have taken place, particularly in relation to the One Plan and the interdepartmental working group that exists there. That group provides strategic analysis and advice to the Executive, other Departments and the Londonderry Strategy Board on the most appropriate means through which the Executive's policies, programmes and projects can positively impact on the themes and programmes that are identified in that plan. The group is also monitoring progress and providing a forum for the discussion and resolution of cross-cutting issues that affect more than one Department. The interdepartmental group meets formally twice a year, and the next meeting is scheduled for October.”
“We have looked at needs in rural areas, which was raised as an issue to us. I have specifically looked at a childminder scheme for the rural areas. Of most concern for lifting people out of poverty is the issue of deprivation. All of those issues have been tackled in OFMDFM's Bright Start scheme.”
“Since taking office, I have been in a number of meetings with Employers For Childcare and with a range of trade union bodies. It is important that we listen to all the views expressed to see what can be done. I am pleased to inform the House that we have pushed ahead, not only in this scheme but in our Bright Start strategy. We have looked at where we can base that strategy in schools and use the existing school estate so that more young people can access the care that is there. We can develop the social enterprises and communities where there is limited childcare. Remember that, with school-age childcare, you can be one of up to 19 competing for a place in certain areas. We are looking at where we can use social enterprise and plough any profits that are made back into the community.”
“Therefore, if we were to continue with what was previously in existence, we would have to look at a legislative change. For all parents out there, we want to ensure that we have a simplified childcare tax scheme. The previous mechanism, for many parents to whom we have spoken, was cumbersome, difficult, complex and difficult to negotiate. I am sure that all Members' constituency offices, like mine, found it so. Therefore, we should look towards a simplified childcare scheme that looks towards the equivalent in tax and at how we could use that investment. <BR /> <BR />We want two wins: the first is to ensure that the benefit for those who need childcare increases, if at all possible; and the second is that it is used and taken up by a greater number of people. That will be our focus in the period to come.”
“The Member raises a very important point about the replacement of the childcare scheme, which was repealed.”
“We have advised Minister Poots that the cross-departmental structure that we have developed for the Delivering Social Change framework provides the ideal opportunity to coordinate work on Internet safety across the Executive.”
“We undertook a review of activity on Internet safety across all the relevant Departments to identify the current actions, where gaps are, and any further actions that need to be taken to address the risks. In addition, we recognised the importance of ensuring that clear messages were provided to parents, children and practitioners. We have been supportive of the recent report from the Safeguarding Board on that issue. <BR /> <BR />Public awareness is critical to addressing the issue. As Ministers, we will be happy to play our part through the events that give us the platform to do so, such as Safer Internet Day, to ensure that the correct messages are communicated and that children and young people stay safe.”
“In recognising the role that has been played by the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety in child protection, I should also pay tribute to the Member for the work that he has undertaken in north Belfast to keep children safe, particularly from cybercrime and cyberbullying, but we have taken advantage of our own central role in the Executive to help inform the discussions on how we can best protect children from abuse through the Internet. We commissioned research to gain a better understanding of Internet use by P7 pupils. We engaged with the United Kingdom Safer Internet Centre, the Safeguarding Board for Northern Ireland and many of the relevant stakeholder organisations.”
“We went to its European headquarters in Dublin to address what it could do and to support the ambassadors against bullying, particularly the young people from our schools in Northern Ireland who are taking a lead role as ambassadors against bullying on the Internet. <BR /> <BR />OFMDFM has also been part of a major conference with COFACE, the Confederation of Family Organisations in the European Union, which is one of the major charities on the European scene seeking to protect children. A very simple point should go out to all our young people that they should treat their personal information in exactly the same way as they would treat their toothbrush: do not share it, and certainly do not share it over the Internet.”
“The Member has been very encouraging in the work that she has done with OFMDFM and the charitable sector. While we look to develop that strategy in the Department of Health, it would be wrong for anybody to go out without an understanding of the work that is under way. I am talking about not just the work that we have done in schools such as St Ita's Primary School and Wellington College but the work that we have done on reaching key players in the European Union, because those major Internet players are the drivers that put the content on to the Internet. We have fully engaged with Facebook.”
“Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety and OFMDFM officials have been working together to agree how best to take forward the development of an Internet safety strategy for Northern Ireland. Given its statutory duty to work together to safeguard children and young people and to promote their welfare, it was agreed that an approach should be made to the Safeguarding Board for Northern Ireland to seek its approval in principle to take forward the development of an interagency Internet safety strategy. In June 2014, agreement in principle was obtained from the Safeguarding Board for Northern Ireland. With the agreement of all Ministers, it is intended that the development of the strategy will be formally commissioned on behalf of the Executive.”
“Any new strategy can raise awareness and give effect to current legislation. So, in drafting the strategy in OFMDFM, we will highlight that it can help give effect to existing legal protections to ensure that they are properly understood and enacted. It can highlight that the strategy can address issues that are outside the scope of existing legal protection. Everyone in the House has a commitment to supporting good relations and to addressing bullying in any form in which it comes.”
“Yes. We had a wide range of responses, and in discussions that we have had with a range of groups, we have also looked at the existing legislation that seeks to tackle discrimination based on sexual orientation.”
“If the Member does not know, he should know that I am not permitted to give out the content of Executive business.”
“That is a matter for the Department of Health.”
“The intention is that the strategy and the associated action plans will address the issues that impact on the daily lives of LGB people.”
“The current Programme for Government sets out our vision for a society in which equality, mutual trust and respect are core values. Achieving that vision requires tackling not just sectarianism and racism but other forms of intolerance. The Together: Building a United Community (T: BUC) strategy recognises the problems that lesbian, gay and bisexual (LGB) people face due to prejudice and intolerance. The specific needs of LGB people were articulated clearly during the public consultation on the draft strategy for cohesion, sharing and integration, which included the commitment to publish the sexual orientation strategy. We remain committed to publishing a sexual orientation strategy, which will be informed by a full public consultation.”
“— that they could get some £10 billion back. The Scots have chosen; they have chosen wisely; and we need to continue to proclaim the benefits of the Union, so secure here now in Northern Ireland.”
“<BR /> <BR />I listened to the — I would not say incompetent economics; I go a step further and say the incontinent economics of Sinn Féin. I never laughed as hard as when I heard one of its spokesmen talk this morning about how he was going to get £10 billion, which, by the way, is what we get extra from the Treasury compared to what we put into Her Majesty's Treasury. He was going to get that £10 billion back because he was going to cut the Civil List. It was comedy hour and completely economically incompetent, because the House is facing a whole range of Sinn Féin cuts: cuts to vulnerable people, cuts to disabled people, cuts to the National Health Service. These are Sinn Féin cuts that are being driven forward, and still they would like to draw a mask —”
“It is not just a temporal thing; the Union has benefited all of us through not only the generations but the lifetimes. <BR /> <BR />Like my colleague Mr Wilson, I pay tribute to the Scots who helped to protect democracy here; in particular, three Scottish soldiers who lost their lives when I was just a child, but also the many other Scottish soldiers who live with physical and psychological injury as a result of defeating terrorism and defeating the terrorists of democracy here in this part of the United Kingdom. We owe them a huge debt that we can never repay. <BR /> <BR />On economic, cultural, social and tourism grounds, the link of our Union is so profound, and it is to be celebrated that the Scots have chosen so wisely.”
“I think that we were right to stay silent as the Scots made probably the most momentous decision of their generation or, as the Scottish First Minister, Alex Salmond, said, a decision that has been made for a lifetime. That does not mask or take away from the fact that many of us were passionately committed to the retention of the Union, but it was for the people of Scotland to decide. The Scots have chosen for their generation, for their lifetime, and I believe that they have chosen wisely. <BR /> <BR />Our great Union is a benefit for every part of our United Kingdom, and we are a greater place today with Scotland strongly within that Union. I come from a constituency where Ulster Scots has a profoundly deep, long-lasting and positive impact — many of our families, including my own, can trace our ancestry back to there.”
“I will conclude now, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, having heard your words. How do you ever finish a tribute to Ian? Ian always quoted Ephesians chapter 6, verses 19 and 20. I thought of that. Today, however, as the Rev William McCrea would have sung with him, "There are no wreaths of death on Doc's mansion door. Teardrops are not welcome beyond the gates of glory because that heart will never break any more." The Paisley family held "Doc's" hand right up until Friday afternoon and cared for him so well until a higher hand came and took his other hand to bring him home. I will finish with the words of the doxology — no pun intended:”
“He could politically face down the worst evils of terrorism and still rejoice in his faith.”