Phil Flanagan
Fermanagh and South Tyrone · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for his answer. There is an old guise that you should never ask a question that you do not know the answer to. The question that I submitted asked the Minister how many social houses had been started in the 2015-16 financial year, but somehow it was changed.”
“I thank the Minister for his attempt to answer the question. I put him on notice that it was not he who initiated the process, but I am looking for him to intervene and stop it as a locally elected representative. <BR /> <BR />There are roughly 1,000 people on the housing waiting list in Fermanagh, and nearly 300 of those are in stress.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a fhreagra. I thank the Minister for his answer. The licence has not been extended, but does the Minister accept that the decision to extend InfraStrata's time frame for a work programme sets a dangerous precedent on fracking, particularly given that InfraStrat…”
“How does the Minister square that with the ministerial involvement of his predecessor, Nelson McCausland, interfering in where social houses are built for political, parading or electoral reasons.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way, and I have no difficulty in supporting this request for information sharing, but I have two short questions. First, he said that this is a tax on employment. Does he have any sort of a headline figure as to what the scale of the financial implications of this will be for local employers?”
“<BR /> <BR />Requirements are now being placed on the Department with regard to careers. That is a very positive development that the Minister brought forward after the Committee initiated a review of careers advice, which was then followed up by a piece of work that the Minister commissioned from an expert group on careers.”
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“The easiest solutions that we as political representatives could have got support for are those that were brought forward together by employers and employee representatives. So, I commend the Minister for the pragmatic and progressive approach that he took in that matter, and for the manner in which he has listened to the feedback that has been brought to him by people from both sides of the argument. <BR /> <BR />We need to take a look at our employment laws, see how they meet the needs of employers and employees and bring forward legislation that allows us to continue to oppose the efforts that are being made to circumvent the rights of working people. We see it day in, day out; working people are being treated abysmally by a very small number of employers.”
“It cannot be a one-way system where some people say, "This is a missed opportunity to eradicate workers' rights". We cannot have an agenda like that around here; that is not what we are here for. Anybody who adopts such a proposal really needs to reflect on where they are coming from. <BR /> <BR />In his contribution to the debate, the Minister has adopted a very pragmatic approach in trying to get consensus from not only all the political parties but wider society. At an early stage, he made a worthwhile effort to bring together employers and employee representatives, along with the LRA, to find pragmatic solutions that everybody could buy into.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. I welcome the progress on the Bill and commend the Minister for sticking with it. He has been at it for some time, as we have heard. He has faced considerable difficulties in progressing it, but he has succeeded in getting it through the Executive and onto the Floor of the Assembly, so I commend him for his efforts and success. <BR /> <BR />It is important to highlight that, even though this has been going on for more than four years, it is better to get it right than do it fast. It is good to see that the Employment Bill has reached this stage. Hopefully, it will progress through the rest of the stages. There are some changes that need to be made to employment law to offer a better system for employers and employees.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. This is a point that I had intended to make in my substantive remarks, but, given that Mr Allister has raised it, I will throw it out now. The only evidence that exists on changing the qualifying period for unfair dismissal is the fact that, when they increased the qualifying period to two years in England, in the first year of that, we had record levels of investment secured by Invest NI. So the only evidence that exists on this matter proves that a qualifying period for unfair dismissal of one year does not have a detrimental or negative impact on our ability to attract inward investment.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his statement and commend him for his continued efforts to improve skills training and education for our citizens. He has done an excellent job in his tenure, and I wish him well. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the statement and the reference made to the improvements in capital expenditure in recent times. Will he give us an update on the proposed investment in the South West College in Enniskillen and the opportunities that have been presented for FE colleges across the North to offer a greater number of higher education courses so that our young people do not have to leave their home to travel to Belfast or Dublin to access higher education?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his statement. Is the Council aware of the stark financial difficulties facing Waterways Ireland as a result of not only sustained budget cuts but the currency fluctuation because of the weakened euro? Let me point out some of the figures: compared with 2013, the 2014 budget was down by €290,000; and, in 2015, it was down by €875,000, solely because of the weak euro. Was that matter discussed? What potential solutions may ensure that Waterways Ireland is returned to a sustainable financial footing?”
“Go raibh agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his answer and I accept the apology that he has given, but I do not really see the need for it. It was an administrative error, and I fully accept that. <BR />I am not asking the Minister to go into the specifics of an individual case, but what we have seen, particularly in places like Britain, is transgender prisoners being put into solitary confinement as a solution. Does the Minister accept that such an approach is not the way to deal with the particular needs of transgender prisoners and that the approach that he says the Prison Service has taken is much more beneficial?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his answer. He is right. These are being presented as budgetary savings, but once you factor in the knock-on increases in transportation costs across Fermanagh, and, indeed, parts of Tyrone, you find that it does not actually make financial sense. Would the Minister be willing to accept a delegation from the local community to discuss these proposed changes once the information arrives on his desk so that we can discuss this with all the information at hand?”
“That can be done through proper investment in further education and higher education, and I just want to remind the Minister that it should not happen through increased tuition fees.”
“I went to the credit union, which was more than happy to provide me with funding, but not everybody is in a position to get funding from the credit union. The system we have where student loans are repayable once you earn over a certain threshold suit people who are not currently in employment much better than the likes of a traditional credit union or bank loan scheme. Hopefully, the Minister can bring some positive news in that regard in the very near future. <BR /> <BR />The policy we have seen in recent times of disinvestment in further and higher education needs to stop. We need to make sure that we are adequately investing in those sectors because, on a wider societal basis, it is very beneficial and, on an individual basis, it is very important that we empower people to reach their full potential.”
“That is why the recent investment in improving broadband is welcome. Whilst it is often championed as allowing children to do homework and to be able to access the Internet, it is also very useful for adults who want to improve their skills by taking either formal or informal qualifications. Having access to good broadband is crucial if we are really going to maximise the benefit that can present itself through part-time education. <BR /> <BR />Anna Lo mentioned the Minister's progressive move towards exploring better funding arrangements for part-time and postgraduate students. We all welcome that, because we can all identify people who have been unable to access loans from the Student Loans Company or through Student Finance NI and, as a result, have then had to source alternative sources of funding.”
“Those are the types of approaches that we need to see. I am sure that the Minister will continue to champion that, along with the regional colleges across the North. We have been looking for this for a lifetime; our 18-year-olds should not have to leave and travel 100 miles to access an undergraduate degree. Very many of them do not return, not least because there are not sufficient jobs for them. <BR /> <BR />There are also opportunities through organisations like the Open University and other providers that provide high-level qualifications and qualifications at all levels online. However, we then have a problem in many rural communities where families and citizens cannot access broadband. We need to make sure that, where technological barriers present themselves, they are addressed.”
“There should be options for all citizens out there to improve their skills level and employability prospects and to move up another rung on the ladder. Opportunities should be made available to all, regardless of where they sit at present. <BR /> <BR />One of the problems that exists at the minute is the inability of very many people to access education at a higher education level, whether that be part-time or full-time, given that most course are now provided in the city of Derry or in greater Belfast. That is where I commend the Minister and the South West College for their efforts to make more undergraduate courses available in places such as Enniskillen, where now, for the first time, people can start and finish an undergraduate degree, which for those who cannot travel or move to Belfast or Derry makes education much more accessible.”
“Some examples have been mentioned, such as allowing parents or those with caring responsibilities to enter or re-enter the education system. Some of those people did not get a chance the first time around, while others are taking their second chance and putting it to better use. <BR /> <BR />The whole concept of continuing professional development (CPD) is something that we should encourage. People are always trying to improve themselves, so, when an opportunity presents itself, we as legislators and policymakers should make that opportunity as accessible for them as we can. Whether somebody is a senior executive in a large corporation or in the public sector or is deemed to be a low-skilled worker, that needs to happen.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas le Cathaoirleach an Choiste as an rún seo a chur roimh an Tionól inniu. Ba mhaith liom leas a fhógairt mar mhac léinn páirtaimseartha in Ollscoil Uladh faoi láthair. Cuirim fáilte roimh an rún agus beidh mé ag labhairt i bhfabhar an rúin. <BR /> <BR />I thank the Chair for bringing the Committee's motion to the House today. As a current part-time student at the Ulster University, I start by declaring an interest. I welcome the motion and will be speaking in favour of it. <BR /> <BR />All Members who have spoken so far have indicated the wider societal benefits that part-time education can provide to all our citizens and the wider benefits that it can have for the economy as a whole.”
“— and the fact that it will be felt much greater in areas of the world where poverty is much higher and where levels of prosperity and affluence are not as high as here. We have a responsibility to other citizens in the globe, not just to those who live here.”
“<BR /> <BR />I do not think that some people have grasped the environmental and societal impacts of climate change —”
“We hear a lot about how he has to get Executive support, but many Members have tabled questions to him and, in one previous answer, he indicated that he does not have support from Executive parties but that he would bring proposals to the Executive once he had concluded his considerations. I am keen to see what proposals he brought forward and whether his considerations were concluded. <BR /> <BR />A former Environment Minister who is constantly talked about when we talk about climate change, Mr Sammy Wilson, recently appeared on 'Inside Politics' on the BBC with Mr Agnew and, amazingly, described saving the world as a vanity project. I have never heard such nonsense. His views are clearly antiquated, and, fortunately, he represents a minority.”
“I do, and I am happy to speak to you afterwards, Paul, but I have a minute and a half in a debate about climate change here, and I do not think that I should talk about the North/South interconnector. <BR /> <BR />That group has tackling climate change as one of its key priorities and now has the support of people from other denominations, including the Reverend Kenny Hall, who supports the work of the group and what it tries to achieve. The Church and our religious leaders have recognised the seriousness of the issue; so too have many scientists. It is now time that we as a political class grasp the seriousness of the issue and work to ensure that we address it. <BR /> <BR />I support the call for the Minister to bring forward a Bill.”
“I do support infrastructural investment, but energy efficiency is one of the greatest tools that we have for reducing consumption, which is just as important as reducing overall usage of carbon emissions. It could be done very simply by investing in energy efficiency. Not only would that reduce emissions, it would also create thousands of local construction jobs and reduce the fuel bills of families here. <BR /> <BR />Moving away from local activism and towards a more global scheme, people like Pope Francis have shown great leadership on that issue at a global level. In my own constituency, Father Joseph McVeigh, with the support of Bishop Liam MacDaid, has established the Clogher Justice Peace and Integrity of Creation group, which counts campaigning and action to prevent climate change as one of its top priorities.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. The Executive should not just invest in the grid; it is my view that the grid should be nationalised, because it effectively operates as a subsidised monopoly. Why should that happen? Why should private companies be allowed to profit from something that is run in the public interest? Instead of just investing in it, I would like to see it nationalised and run in the public interest. <BR /> <BR />With regard to the North/South interconnector, the Member is well aware of Sinn Féin's policy on it: we want to see it undergrounded, particularly through the A5/N2 project, as it makes sense to me that it should be done as part of that scheme.”
“If we are serious about keeping the temperature of the planet lower, we need to stop going after fossil fuels, particularly those extracted by non-conventional and dangerous methods. We need to move away from fossil fuels; we do not need to look for more of them. <BR /> <BR />We also need to invest in energy efficiency. For the last five years, the Assembly and the Executive have missed the opportunity to invest tens of millions of pounds in retrofitting homes and businesses through the failure to implement the green new deal.”
“It is very important for us to remember that. <BR /> <BR />For once, we have significant scientific evidence telling us what will happen if the temperature continues to increase, but we still have time to act. We do not have much time, but it is important that we take as many opportunities as we can to reduce any further increase in the temperature of the planet. <BR /> <BR />The first thing that we need to do is to move to reduce carbon emissions and introduce Government policies that reflect that requirement. Some Members of the House and some members of the community are open proponents of fracking, which is one of the biggest threats to tackling the serious issue of climate change.”
“Climate change is the most important issue for this and future generations. <BR /> <BR />I heard one of the people interviewed on 'The RTÉ Nine o'clock News' last night quote a very simple phrase. The gentleman said:”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Cuirim fáilte roimh an díospóireacht seo. I welcome the debate and place on record my support for the amendment. We had tabled a similar amendment, but it was not selected as Mr Agnew's appears to be more comprehensive. The overall sentiment of seeking an ambitious climate change Bill was the same, so I am more than happy to support Mr Agnew's amendment. <BR /> <BR />I also want to take the opportunity to send my support and gratitude to all those who were involved in activism over the weekend to highlight the talks that are going on in Paris. Those people, more than the global leaders who will invariably take all the media attention over the week, deserve our thanks for raising the issue and making sure that it was the headline story on the news all day yesterday and for much of today.”
“I will, yes. <BR /> <BR />The fact that so much of the money was deemed ineligible for funding but has not been recovered was a further point of consternation for the Committee.”
“The Department's investigation of those allegations was unduly protracted. A full investigation commenced only in 2011, initiated by other stakeholders who had become concerned about the problems with the project. The Committee was astonished that DETI withheld vital information about the project from key stakeholders, including SEUPB and the Department in the South, for far too long. Overall, DETI's response to the whistle-blower allegations was not of an acceptable standard, and that was a matter of great concern to the Committee.”
“It is no surprise, given the Department's lax performance, that almost €4·2 million of the €4·3 million grant paid for the project was subsequently deemed ineligible for assistance. <BR /> <BR />We found that the Department's handling of serious allegations from whistle-blowers about the project was totally inadequate. It is beyond belief that initial allegations made in 2006 were investigated by the same officials who had authorised the payment of grant claims. The Department's senior management accepted unwarranted assurances from those officials that there were no matters of concern in the project. The Department also failed to investigate an internal Bytel email that contained allegations about improper activity. <BR /> <BR />Further allegations from whistle-blowers were received by the Department in 2008.”
“DETI did not reappraise the project at that stage, and that resulted in substantially more grant being paid to the project than was required. The failure to reappraise the project when it changed significantly was a fundamental shortcoming that contributed significantly to the problems that followed. <BR /> <BR />The Committee found that the standard of DETI's scrutiny and checking of grant claims from Bytel was appalling: for example, €1·3 million was paid for equipment that was ineligible for funding, worth only around €30,000 and never used in the project. The final grant claim for €2·2 million was paid in full despite the fact that there was no supporting evidence. The Committee concluded that the claim had no validity whatsoever.”
“In that regard, the Public Accounts Committee in the North worked well with the Public Accounts Committee in the Oireachtas to ensure that a joint approach was taken, with two inquires at the same time. We held joint meetings to make sure that there was a coordinated approach and that information was shared well between Committees. <BR /> <BR />The Bytel project was heavily dependent on a contribution by a key partner, but, just weeks after the project was approved, that partner withdrew. DETI did not properly test that partner's contribution prior to awarding funding. Had it done so, it would have found that it had made no firm commitment to support the project. Bytel then made fundamental changes to the way its project was to be delivered, and, as a result, the costs of delivering it reduced dramatically.”
“Bytel delivered very poor value for money, and the Committee had grave concerns about the validity of the grant claims submitted and paid in respect of the project. <BR /> <BR />The Committee found that the project should never have been approved for public funding in the first place. Despite many clear warning signs about its viability from an early stage, it somehow managed to slip through the net. It was clear to the Committee, with the benefit of hindsight, that both Departments, particularly DETI, were preoccupied with the desire to utilise the EU funding that was available for the project rather than ensuring that it was properly managed and would deliver value for money.”
“I want to address most of my remarks to the report published this year by the Public Accounts Committee on the cross-border broadband initiative, the Bytel project. It provided high-speed broadband connectivity across Ireland and was delivered by a Belfast-based company, Bytel Networks Limited. The project was funded by the Special EU Programmes Body (SEUPB) but jointly sponsored by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment and the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. DETI had lead responsibility for project oversight and management. Bytel had costs of €4·3 million, but the project was by no means the largest project that the Committee has explored in terms of expenditure. That does not mean that the failings were any less significant or serious.”
“It seems to be stuck in the Department for Social Development, but I know that the Committee for Social Development is considering amending the Housing (Amendment) Bill to include the sharing of information with regard to the use of electricity by electricity supply companies with social housing providers.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Like other Members, I have a pre-prepared speech, but I will touch on some of the comments that Mr Wells made about the tenancy fraud issue. It is an issue that the Committee for Social Development is currently looking at through the Housing (Amendment) Bill that Mr Beggs has touched on, but the Department for Social Development seems to be very reluctant to amend that Bill to deal with the sharing of information from electricity supply companies with social housing providers. The officials tell the Committee that there has been a separate piece of work under way for over a year, yet those officials are not able to give the Committee any evidence of what they have done so far.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a freagra. I thank the Minister for her answer. Can she give us any indication of whether these grants will be available to hill farmers, in particular, given the role that trees and woodland in high areas can play in soaking up water and rainfall and stopping it going down into valleys and causing knock-on flooding in other areas?”
“For me, that is short-sighted and restricts the potential of the ESF programme. I think that it should be reconsidered, and I call on the Minister to take that on board.”
“I <BR /> <BR /> would like the Minister, during his response at the end, to advise on how outsourced programmes like the ESF have that protection in them to make sure that there is provision in every community, because I do not see that when I look through the list. I see some schemes that were successful in rural areas, but the vast majority seem to be headquartered in urban areas. My concern is that the rural communities are merely an afterthought and that the needs of those people are not reflected as highly as they should be. <BR /> <BR />Other Members have highlighted issues that are particular to this fund, particularly the cap on a grade D at GCSE for training schemes.”
“On top of that, the private companies or community and voluntary organisations become much more effectively organised in urban areas and a gap grows in the provision of training programmes and in growing skills across different areas. The skills of the community and voluntary organisations in some areas are much greater than in others, and they say that that is because it is more economically profitable for these to be delivered in urban areas as opposed to in rural communities. It is not an excuse that I buy. Not all areas, particularly rural communities, have had equal investment in the community and voluntary sector historically, and that imbalance is worsening, with rural communities such as those in Fermanagh and Tyrone missing out. The inequality gap is growing.”
“<BR /> <BR />The competitive bidding process leads to the successful organisations tending to be based in those areas east of the Bann or, if we are lucky, in Derry city, but they are very rarely based in rural areas. As I have said, their understanding of the challenges facing people in rural communities is reinforced. Some of them do not seem to understand the transportation issues that are facing people. They are already struggling to get employment opportunities to access training, but the issues are further compounded by a complete absence of reliable transportation and having to travel a considerable distance to access the services.”
“I thank the Member for the extra minute because I am still on my first page and three minutes are gone. <BR /> <BR />I certainly do remember those reassurances, but I am not reassured by them. On the list of the successful bidders, many are based either east of the Bann or in Derry city. Very few are based in rural communities where there is a greater understanding of the needs of rural citizens. That is one of the problems with the competitive bidding process. I think that, if the Department was delivering ESF directly, there would be much more emphasis placed on ensuring equality of provision across the North in urban and rural communities.”
“Given the way the whole bid process works, where everything is a competitive process, it has to be done at the lowest cost possible and there is an afterthought given to value, it seems that there are no economies of scale for those organisations to deliver them in rural communities. My concern is that the Department is allowing those rural communities to be left behind.”
“We might be told that there is a positive aspect to that in that it enables people who are hard to reach, as they call them, to be reached by the provision of a government service. They tell us that government could not access those people directly, so we bring in external organisations like the community and voluntary sector to reach them. That may be fine and well in some urban areas where there is a strong network of community and voluntary organisations to reach people who are deemed to be hard to reach, but it is certainly not the case in rural communities.”
“Some other Ministers, if they were in a similar situation, might have preferred to leave it to officials to deal with and might have farmed it out to them to resolve; but, in fairness to the Minister, whilst there remain problems with the situation, he has taken a great personal interest in this and has genuinely tried his best to sort it out. I wish him well as he continues to do that. <BR /> <BR />The ESF, from my point of view, is another one of these departmental funds that are outsourced. That seems to be the way that everything is going now, particularly in DEL, where a growing number of programmes are not delivered directly by the Department but are put out for competitive tenders for independent organisations, private companies or community and voluntary organisations.”
“Maybe there is an election coming up that we have not heard about. The Minister, in fairness to him, has shown a great degree of willingness to get involved in this.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. I support the motion. We all accept that the European social fund is a fundamental part of how we as an Executive can increase the social inclusion of our people and try to reduce economic inactivity across our citizens. <BR /> <BR />At the outset, I commend the leadership shown by members of the Employment and Learning Committee in taking the lead and representing organisations in the community and voluntary sector and helping to make sure that the fund is administered correctly. As the Chair of the Committee said in his opening remarks, the administration of the fund has been somewhere in between problematic and chaotic. I note that the Minister is coming in for considerable condemnation from some of his constituency colleagues in North Down.”
“Each of us knows where the other stands on the issue, and we can now put it to a vote. I hope that Members will support the Bill and allow it to progress to Committee Stage. I thank Members for their contributions to the debate, and I commend the Bill to the House.”
“I thank the Member for his contribution. I agree with Mr Bradley: I would love to see the reintroduction of Irish as our native language but if the Member reads the Bill, that is not what we are debating. We are debating the reintroduction of townlands. The use of the Irish language is not contained in the Bill. I deliberately left it out, hoping that nobody would go on a random tangent as the Member did. Unfortunately, it is hard to hold people back. <BR /> <BR />One of Mr Girvan's final comments was that GPS systems do not recognise townlands. He is wrong, but if he were right, surely that demonstrates the need for this change to be made. <BR /> <BR />I think that we have perhaps debated this issue long enough for today. I hope that this is not the final debate on the matter.”
“No, I won't, Paul. <BR /> <BR />Mr Girvan uses language like cultural war when we are talking about something that is shared between all of us. It is something that is shared between all the communities on this island, including the Orange Order. He does himself no favours when he uses rhetoric like that. It has absolutely no foundation in reality.”
“I thank the Member for that contribution. I am sure he drives with manners on it. <BR /> <BR />I was amazed at the tone adopted by some Members. I genuinely cannot understand Mr Girvan claiming that some people are engaged in a cultural war here. People like Jim Shannon called for the greater promotion of townlands. Is Mr Girvan alleging that Jim Shannon is engaged in a cultural war? I do not think that Jim would be that happy about that.”
“<BR /> <BR />Mr Girvan referenced property numbers at the bottom of lanes. Maybe he is not aware that it is an offence not to display one's number at the end of one's lane. One is guilty of an offence and liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding level 2 on the standard scale. Maybe he is already compliant with the law, maybe not. Either way, I have no intention of changing that. <BR /> <BR />Mr Girvan talked frequently about the Seven Mile road. I would be interested to know whether it is seven miles long or is it like most other roads that have no relation to the local community. I would hazard a guess that it is not seven miles long and takes its name like other roads where they just pick a random thing off the top of their heads and call the road that.”