Phil Flanagan
Fermanagh and South Tyrone · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for his answer. There is an old guise that you should never ask a question that you do not know the answer to. The question that I submitted asked the Minister how many social houses had been started in the 2015-16 financial year, but somehow it was changed.”
“I thank the Minister for his attempt to answer the question. I put him on notice that it was not he who initiated the process, but I am looking for him to intervene and stop it as a locally elected representative. <BR /> <BR />There are roughly 1,000 people on the housing waiting list in Fermanagh, and nearly 300 of those are in stress.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a fhreagra. I thank the Minister for his answer. The licence has not been extended, but does the Minister accept that the decision to extend InfraStrata's time frame for a work programme sets a dangerous precedent on fracking, particularly given that InfraStrat…”
“How does the Minister square that with the ministerial involvement of his predecessor, Nelson McCausland, interfering in where social houses are built for political, parading or electoral reasons.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way, and I have no difficulty in supporting this request for information sharing, but I have two short questions. First, he said that this is a tax on employment. Does he have any sort of a headline figure as to what the scale of the financial implications of this will be for local employers?”
“<BR /> <BR />Requirements are now being placed on the Department with regard to careers. That is a very positive development that the Minister brought forward after the Committee initiated a review of careers advice, which was then followed up by a piece of work that the Minister commissioned from an expert group on careers.”
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“I have clearly outlined that I do not want an unregulated system. I want councils to be able to adopt an authorised system where townlands can officially be the primary part of an address-based system. Mrs Overend simply says she does not support that, and that is fine. Her opposition is clear and she should not introduce irrelevant issues into this debate to justify her stance. <BR /> <BR />Turning to the points of Mr Girvan; Paul rightly said that the current postcode system works well. I do not disagree with him. I do not propose to change that. Mr Girvan seems to use a satnav a lot, therefore finding properties would not be problem for him regardless of whether we used a road- or townlands-based system as he and others, like me, who use GPS technology would be directed straight to the property in question.”
“I am amazed if Sandra is really that naive to think that there are no problems using the current roads-based system on roads that are 10 or 13 miles long. She also raised the issue of additional cost. There is going to be no additional cost to the Executive from this legislative change. The only additional cost is going to be for LPS, which will have to draft guidance for councils. It is not that cumbersome a process. <BR /> <BR />Mrs Overend stated that she does not want to give the townland primacy, which is an approach that I am reluctant to hear but it really sets the rest of her comments in context. She falsely claimed that I want to go back to the previous unauthorised situation. She must not have been listening to my contribution today or when I appeared before the Environment Committee.”
“We should not be stipulating in the Bill how councils number properties. There is no stipulation in the Bill that odd numbers have to be on one side of the road and even numbers on the other. There is no stipulation that you have to start with the lowest numbers on the side of the road closest to your local post office or town hall or east or west. That is not stipulated in the Bill at the minute. The proposal I am bringing forward does not seek to amend or enhance that in any way. What it does do is call for the Department of Finance and Personnel to introduce guidance so that officers, when making those decisions, and councillors, when deciding on them, will do so with the best expert knowledge. <BR /> <BR />Sandra again raised the issue of the emergency services.”
“Once again, I deliberately left that out because I wanted the Bill to be as simple and straightforward as it could be; and the guidance and advice that came, particularly from DOE officials and officials in the Bill Office, was that the best course of action was to place a duty on DFP to issue guidance to councils on how to carry out the process of numbering properties. I say to the Member that where we start in a townland and whether you go clockwise, counterclockwise or up and down a road is purely a matter for the councils, taking into consideration the advice of DFP and the expert knowledge that each council has through its building control officers, because they are the people who know best how to decide on those matters. They are the experts in issuing numbers to houses and other properties. That is where we should leave the power.”
“Maybe Sandra will produce those for me at a later stage. <BR /> <BR />Sandra also said that she does not see why anyone would abandon the current situation. I say to the Member that the current process of numbering properties along a road name may be effective and efficient, but it has led to the decline of townlands. It has been highlighted in several debates in the Chamber, and outside it, how the numbering of properties along road names and abolishing the system of numbering them in a townland has had a direct impact on the preservation of townland names. This legislative change would, hopefully, reverse that in some areas. <BR /> <BR />Sandra then raised some practical matters not contained in the Bill, such as where we would start with the numbering in a townland.”
“So, I remind any Member across the way who wants to throw that up as an issue that I deliberately left out any reference to the Irish language in the Bill in order to try to get cross-party support on what is a non-contentious issue. <BR /> <BR />I will turn to Sandra Overend's contribution. Sandra alleged that she has experienced no problem in getting her townland onto official addresses. Well, she must be the only one. I would be interested to see her bank statements, her driving licence, her mobile phone bill, her BT bill and other such correspondence because, frankly, I do not believe her. There are so many people trying to get their townlands onto such correspondence but who cannot do it, and it does not wash for one Member to say, "Well, I have no problem doing it and I do not see the problem here".”
“In my opinion, the Bill would put them back into pole position in the areas that adopt this change. <BR /> <BR />Dominic concluded by asking what account had been taken of the Good Friday Agreement and the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages. I will be honest: it was not to the fore of my mind when developing the legislation, and I specifically left out any reference to language at all because I knew that that would be the issue that some Members would run with. This is purely about the culture and heritage of townlands; it has absolutely nothing to do with the Irish language or with any other language.”
“<BR /> <BR />Dominic referenced the work carried out in many areas across the North to highlight townlands using attractive stones and markers. That approach was never needed in Fermanagh because of the central point of townlands on one's address; we did not need stones to mark it out. It is worth exploring that in areas where townlands are not well understood and where people do not know what townland they live in. Despite what Members say, I know an awful lot of people outside Fermanagh who do not know what a townland is or what townland they live in. So, anybody who tells me that there is no need for this legislative change and that we do not need greater protection for townlands is, frankly, arguing from a point of ignorance. Dominic also said that, in some areas, townland names are not as prominent as they could be.”
“We should consider looking at the Place-Names Project again. Dominic highlighted that townlands tell us not only about the topography of an area but about the people who once dwelt in it. You have townland names that are derived from the geographic nature of an area but also townlands that get their name from the people who resided in it at one stage. <BR /> <BR />Dominic highlighted something that I forgot to mention during my earlier contribution: the importance of townlands to lodges of the Orange Order. He said that the Orange Order is doing its bit to support townlands. I raised that issue during my contribution at the Environment Committee. I certainly agree with him, and if the Orange Order is doing its bit for townlands, I certainly think that we, as a legislative Assembly, should be doing our bit as well.”
“Dominic lamented the fact that a previous Finance Minister, who he says knew the price of everything and the value of nothing, could not find the match funding to sustain the Place-Names Project. I certainly agree with that. I remember having correspondence with and meeting those behind the Place-Names Project at the time and getting some understanding of the benefit of that project in increasing the awareness and understanding of townlands across the North, particularly in areas where they had been allowed to fall into disuse. It was not so much in places like Fermanagh, Armagh or Tyrone but in other rural areas where townlands really were not on the agenda as such. They carried out an extensive project on getting the actual meaning of townland names and letting people in those townlands understand the origins of the word.”
“He highlighted that reading some of the excellent publications of the Place-Name Project unearthed our rich history. There then ensued a dispute between two Members from Newry and Armagh about the etymology of the townland of Caramoyle, and I am certainly not going to get involved in that dispute.”
“There is plenty wrong with it, Kieran. Pete McGrath is a top man, though. <BR /> <BR />The problem there is not with this system. Mrs Overend highlights a problem that exists already. This legislation would not make that any worse. It might not make it any better, but it does not change it. The problem that you highlight already exists, and the proposed change would not be the cause of that problem. I contend that your postal town should be your postal town, not one in a different county. That is a serious problem, but it is not something that this legislation is looking at. <BR /> <BR />Dominic Bradley, in his contribution, highlighted some of his favourite townlands in his area and said that locked within our townland names is a wealth of history.”
“I suppose the problem there is that the Member's postal town is not actually a town in her council area. That will not be addressed by this issue, but it is an anomaly that happens right across the board. I used to work in Newry, and I used to see people from Crossmaglen coming in, and their address was Crossmaglen, Newry, County Down. People in Crossmaglen, I would imagine, do not like being told that they live in County Down, but that is what Royal Mail tells them.”
“In one second, Sandra. All we are doing is — Jesus, there's the heavy hitters now — enhancing the ability of councillors and councils to offer property numbers in a townlands-based system. I do not think that there is any problem there with having one system in one area and a different system in another area.”
“OK. I appreciate that. Maybe it is an argument, but why do we need a uniform system in every district council area? Why can we not allow councils to decide how best to issue property numbers? Surely, they know what their people want better than anybody else. If I were to tell a Member of the House that they did not represent their constituents and that somebody else should make those decisions, that is effectively the same as telling councillors and local government officers that they are not best placed to make the decisions, even though it is they who have the statutory responsibility for issuing property numbers.”
“I thank the Member for her intervention. I do not necessarily get the point that she makes; maybe she is making the point that, if some council areas adopt it and others do not, there will not be a uniform system across the North. Is that the point that you are making?”
“If there is room for it or if the DVLA or the DOE can be bothered putting it on, it will put it on, but it is not a hard and fast rule.”
“However, the mechanism of allowing councils to number properties in a townland, returning townlands to the heart of the address, would go a long way to restoring townlands in many areas. <BR /> <BR />Cathal made a useful contribution when he welcomed the efforts of many local and central government agencies to increase their use of townlands but said that he believed that, without legislation, the usage of townlands was inconsistent. He said that he supported the Bill as it would help to ensure that future generations would be able to use and understand their townlands. <BR /> <BR />We had situations here in the past where MLAs told us that our townland was on our driving licence, but it is not on everybody's driving licence.”
“I do not take my sense of identity from the name of a road, but I take it from a townland. I am conscious that many people in our society do likewise. <BR /> <BR />Cathal also highlighted the fact that he was concerned that the younger generation in particular had little or no understanding of the townlands in which they live. That is the rationale behind the proposed legislative change: it would cement the use of townlands in council areas that decided to implement it. In my view, there is no better way to increase awareness of townlands than to have them as the principal part of the addressing system. As I said at the start, not all councils will implement and adopt the change, so something else needs to happen in those other areas.”
“I will return to the debate before Mr Beggs gets out of the Chair and gets too excited. Who knows what this lovely room will be used for in 50 years' time? I doubt that it will be used as a regional Parliament in the north of Ireland, anyway. <BR /> <BR />I return to the issue of townlands. If we were to travel forward 50 years in time and go round graveyards, would the headstones of people buried now read, "This is such-and-such from such-and-such a townland", or would they read, "This is such-and-such from number 155 on some random road"? Those are the anomalies that have resulted in recent years from the change. Will we stand idly by and allow this reduction in our culture and heritage to happen? Townlands are a part of us all. They are where we come from and where we take our sense of identity.”
“Sorry, does the Member want to make an intervention? No? I thank the Member for his contribution; I wish him well. <BR /> <BR />If we were to travel forward 50 years in a time machine, Peter Weir would probably still be over there as the Whip of the DUP.”
“All those issues are anecdotal and would need to be drawn out further at Committee Stage, if we want to find out how bad the problem is in the areas where a roads-based system has been adopted and whether moving to an optional townlands-based system would make it any worse. <BR /> <BR />Cathal Boylan said that he was proud to come from the townland of Caramoyle. He highlighted the fact that, when you look at headstones around graveyards, you can see the common usage of townland names by previous generations. If I had a time machine, it might be interesting to travel forward 50 years and look at people's headstones, because when I look at —”
“All those jobs are not now based in one area for a lifetime; you see people being rotated round various areas, whether they are clergymen or clergywomen, postmen, police officers or other emergency services personnel. The case that people do not know where every house is exists at the minute under the roads-based system. Introducing a townlands-based system would not make it any less efficient, and that problem, unfortunately, would remain under the current proposal. However, I will tell you what it would do: if an ambulance driver stopped and asked me where house number 297 was on a 13-mile road, for example, I would not have a clue, but, if you gave me an indication of the name of the townland, I could certainly tell you where the house was on that 13-mile stretch of road. That is how this change would have a positive benefit.”
“If you do not have local knowledge, the only solution is to use GPS to find these places, unless you are willing to stop and ask for directions, which, unfortunately, we see emergency services having to do, even in areas where roads are used as a characteristic for finding properties. <BR /> <BR />We cannot expect everybody to know where every house in the countryside is, no matter what you do for a living. I suppose that there was a time when the parish priest knew where every house in the countryside was, and the postman might have a fair idea. However, as Mrs Overend indicated, even the police do not know where houses are.”
“Whether a council uses a roads- or townlands-based system, the challenge will remain the same when trying to find a property in an emergency. That will not change. If you do not know where to find an individual property number along a 10-mile road, the best way to do that is to have an accurate GPS system that will bring you to it. Most emergency services and most people engaged in the delivery of services to houses now use GPS or some form of satnav to bring them there. As the Member for South Down indicated, that is not always 100% accurate, but it would be no less accurate in a townlands-based system than it would be in a roads-based system.”
“That certainly highlights one of the challenges that we face across the North with addressing. It is clear that the people best placed to deal with addressing are the officials in LPS and the experts in building control in councils. I am not putting in any parameters for how issue property numbers or name roads. A sensible proposition coming out of the Chamber today is that councils are given the power not only to number properties, as they can do at the minute, along a road, a street, a cul-de-sac, a boulevard and all those other fancy types of street that have emerged in recent years but to go back to the historical system of townland names that was always used on this island. <BR /> <BR />I return to the emergency services issue.”
“That is the case across the North, where there are very lengthy pieces of road on which, unless you have local knowledge of where a house number specifically is or of where an individual lives, you will have problems using the roads-name-based system to find an address.”
“It may be the case that such organisations will be interested in participating in a more extensive consultation at Committee Stage, and that will be the best place for the Member to find out the views of the emergency services, instead of her standing up here speculating that those organisations will be opposed to such a change. <BR /> <BR />There is an element of doubt creeping in here around the suggestion that, if we use a roads-based system for allocating property numbers, there will never be a problem finding properties. In 2001, Eddie McGrady highlighted a case in which an ambulance driver stopped him in distress at not being able to find a property on a 10-mile stretch of road.”
“It would be done on a voluntary basis, but the councils need the legal protection to do it, and they need to be able to do it under a mechanism whereby citizens are not being disadvantaged by the change. <BR /> <BR />Pam also wanted to know what consultation took place with the emergency services and listed a pile of other organisations that she wanted to see consulted, including the Police Service, the Ambulance Service and the Fire Service. I want to put it on record that those organisations were all consulted. Their views were sought on the proposed legislative change.”
“Members opposite want to see a voluntary scheme, but they do not want to see any kind of a scheme set in statute. This would be a voluntary scheme even though it would be set in statute. We are not forcing anybody to do anything. Members opposite use phrases about why we cannot do this on a voluntary basis, but it would be done on a voluntary basis. We are opening up a mechanism to allow local councils to do this voluntarily if they so want. I have stated before that I am not forcing Belfast City Council or any other council to do something that it does not want to do. That would be wrong on an issue pertaining to the protection of culture and heritage.”
“It was a legislative problem that a previous raft of reform of local government enacted. We now have a situation in which a legislative change can protect and promote townlands, and Members appear not to want to support that change, which I find a bit strange. <BR /> <BR />If the Bill moves to Committee Stage, hopefully the fuller public consultation that the Environment Committee will engage in will demonstrate that there is a level of public support for greater promotion and protection of townlands. I am confident that those who will engage in such a consultation will quickly see that there is a demand for this legislative change. Who knows? There may be issues raised out there about how we can better promote and protect townlands.”
“I contend that there certainly is a need and a demand for this among many rural dwellers, and not only those in Fermanagh. Some people think that it is only an issue there. It is not just an issue for Fermanagh. I had responses from every constituency in the North. People in rural communities, and, indeed, in many urban communities, are lamenting the fact that the townland-based system is being eroded, and it is being eroded because of the changes that took place in 1972 to amend the legislation to introduce road names. In the debate that took place in 2001 — 14 years ago — it was all well and good for Members to get up and blame Royal Mail. Everything was Royal Mail's fault or the Post Office's fault. It was not Royal Mail's fault at all. It was merely adhering to the legislation that was introduced.”
“Anna Lo concluded by saying that her party was content to support the Bill and to scrutinise it during Committee Stage. That is a pragmatic view, as not everybody is in favour of the specific proposal before the House today. I accept that, but I think that the best way in which to deal with any concerns that exist or any confusion that individual Members may have is to allow the Bill to progress to Committee Stage, where the 11 members of the Committee can engage in a proper public consultation, see what issues there are and see how those can be resolved. <BR /> <BR />Pam Cameron fails to understand why the issue needs rooted in legislation and wondered why we need legislation for something that there is no need to do.”
“I am amazed to hear some Members, who will tell you that they are members of a law and order party and want the law adhered to, openly calling for councils to break the law. There is a very strange anomaly here. We have Members who call for people to support the law yet, on this occasion, are calling for councils to break the law and step outside the rules that currently govern how councils can legally administer property numbers. I was a bit alarmed to hear that. Hopefully, it was a misunderstanding, and they are not actually calling for people to break the law.”
“That is exactly the type of problem that people in Fermanagh faced for years, where the unauthorised system was being used without legislation. That meant that people did not have a unique property reference number, which made it difficult for them to pass credit checks, get products delivered or use GPS, satnavs and things of that nature. <BR /> <BR />That is why the voluntary approach that some Members are proposing will not work. If we move to a system where a council introduces a townland-based system without it being set out in statute, we will throw up all the problems that were there in the past. The only solution to that is for this legislative change to be made to allow councils to number properties based on a townland system within legislation, and not stepping outside it.”
“<BR /> <BR />Anna Lo also reminded the House that her party had previously tabled two motions in the Assembly calling for greater support for townlands and she indicated that her party remained broadly supportive of the protection of townlands for heritage purposes. Ms Lo also indicated that she felt that changing the system appeared complicated. Hopefully, the Bill will pass Second Stage and be referred to her Committee where those complexities can be addressed appropriately, under her stewardship. <BR /> <BR />Anna also told the story of a young friend of hers from Fermanagh — it was not 'Anna from Fermanagh'; that is a story by a famous Fermanagh man — who bought a house in south Belfast and had problems proving that her old address existed using the townland-based system.”
“<BR /> <BR />There was also significant potential that someone would take a legal case against Fermanagh District Council as a result of its failure to enact the legislation governing the issuing of property numbers along a roads-based system. As a result, the majority of councillors accepted the need to enact a legislated-for system. The council also sought this specific legislative change to be made to allow it to continue to use the townland-based system but in such a way that would allow citizens to avail themselves of credit, to get home deliveries and to use GPS systems effectively.”
“Anna Lo, speaking on behalf of the Environment Committee, wondered aloud why this policy change could not be done on a voluntary basis and said that, during the Committee hearing, some members had suggested that any councils that wanted to could merely introduce this change themselves. However, in Fermanagh, that was done not so much voluntarily but in an unauthorised fashion for 40 years. In recent years, that caused significant problems for citizens in their engagements with credit-referencing agencies. It is for that reason that the council moved away from the unauthorised or what some have called the voluntary system.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I want to start by thanking Members for their contributions to the debate earlier. Some of those contributions were insightful, some were helpful and some were completely off the wall, they were that detached from reality. The Minister of the Environment has informed me that, unfortunately, he cannot be here to respond to the debate. He is down in the castle or the house doing something. I am not quite sure what he is doing. Maybe there will be an announcement at some stage and we will be informed, but I accept that the Minister is unable to be here and I will not hold it against him. <BR /> <BR />I will turn to some of the comments that were made by Members.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a ráiteas. What assurance can the Minister give, particularly with regard to the continuing existence of barriers to cross-border mobility at undergraduate level, that this system will indeed be portable, compatible and recognisable in the rest of Ireland for people who want to go to university where stipulations are in place that they need a certain standard of GCSE English or maths?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer and her open-mindedness on this issue. On a more general point, does the Minister accept the key role that catseyes play on our roads to show motorists where the road is going and where there are dangerous corners, particularly in the dark at times of heavy rain? If you travel around the South of Ireland, the catseyes are much brighter and I think that they are of a higher standard. I think that they are much harder to see in the North. Does the Minister accept that, and will she commit to prioritise funding for catseyes in future budgets?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. I must say that it is good to see the Minister here and not in the castle. I am sure that she enjoys our company more than that of her Executive colleagues.”
“I encourage Members to support the Bill and allow it to go to Committee Stage to see what complementary measures we can add to it.”
“As an Assembly, we need to learn from that. We need to realise that the best way to promote and protect townland names is to have them as a principal part of the address, and we can do that by allowing councils to have the choice of allocating property numbers using the townland-based system if they so wish. <BR /> <BR />We should learn from the positive leadership that Fermanagh District Council showed for 40 years by refusing to implement a road name-based system. The sky did not fall in. The council did it without legislation to back it up. Most people in Fermanagh want to return to a system in which their address is allocated on the basis of their townland. That is the change that I propose through the legislation.”
“If it were not for Fermanagh, they would have been abolished and would have disappeared off the system years ago. The fact that townlands are now included in Pointer is a positive step, but it is not the solution; it is not as far as we can go. There are still too many instances of us getting correspondence from Departments and official sources in which the townland name is not included in the address. It is removed as a cost-saving measure or to save space on a label, an envelope and so on. I do not think that they would get away with it if the townland name were at the top of the address. <BR /> <BR />It is no coincidence to me that understanding and awareness of townlands is much stronger in Fermanagh than in any other area in the North. It is clearly a result of the historical and recent use of townlands in our addressing system.”
“I remember being in P6 in school, and the 20 of us in our class were asked to do a presentation on our own townland, what it meant, what it stood for and how it contributed to our identity. It was fascinating to see how 20 nine- or 10-year-olds had such a great understanding of their townland. What concerns me is that, if you were to pick 20 random people from other parts of the North, that understanding of their townland, what it means and where the name derives from would just not exist. There is an onus on us as legislators to do something to restore townlands to their rightful place. <BR /> <BR />Since the early 1970s, the use and understanding of townland names has been on a downward trajectory. We need to take appropriate action to stop that. Townlands are in a perilous state at the minute.”
“I also want to commend those involved in the place name project, which researches the origin and meaning of place names across the North and is based at Queen's University Belfast. Projects and organisations like those have a key role in increasing understanding and awareness of townlands in society.”
“<BR /> <BR />I want to reiterate that no council here is being forced to do anything that it does not want to do. We are merely transferring a power to a council and broadening the scope that a council has when allocating property numbers to addresses. I am open to exploring at the Committee Stage other protections and measures that can be taken to protect townlands. I am confident that other ideas will be added to complement the Bill, and I encourage Members to explore that further. <BR /> <BR />I want to pay tribute to two organisations that do an awful lot of good work in promoting and protecting townlands on a national basis: Logainm, which is the place names database of Ireland and is developed by Fiontar at Dublin City University; and the place names branch at the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht.”
“<BR /> <BR />From the outset, I have accepted that not all councils will introduce or implement that system, but some will and, in those areas where they do, it will enhance the use of townlands. For me, that is a positive step. I think that, if the Bill is allowed to progress to Committee Stage, some other ideas might be brought forward either by Committee members, external individuals, organisations involved in the promotion of townlands or experts who deal with the issue. This will not solve the problem across our 11 councils. If one, two or three councils adopt the change, it will have a positive impact in those council areas, but it will not make much impact in other areas, apart from starting the debate on how important townlands are for our people, culture and heritage.”
“In order to stop that, we need to put the townland in the principal part of the address at the top, because we cannot force private organisations and individuals to use townlands as much as I would like. For me, that would be the best solution: let us bring in a law forcing people to use townlands. I certainly do not think that that would be workable, but it might have the desired outcome that we all want. A compromise position, where we can get workable legislation that has the desired outcome of enhancing the use of townlands by making sure that they are put back at the heart of common language again, is to offer councils the opportunity to put townlands at the heart of the addressing system in their district.”