Phil Flanagan
Fermanagh and South Tyrone · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for his answer. There is an old guise that you should never ask a question that you do not know the answer to. The question that I submitted asked the Minister how many social houses had been started in the 2015-16 financial year, but somehow it was changed.”
“I thank the Minister for his attempt to answer the question. I put him on notice that it was not he who initiated the process, but I am looking for him to intervene and stop it as a locally elected representative. <BR /> <BR />There are roughly 1,000 people on the housing waiting list in Fermanagh, and nearly 300 of those are in stress.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a fhreagra. I thank the Minister for his answer. The licence has not been extended, but does the Minister accept that the decision to extend InfraStrata's time frame for a work programme sets a dangerous precedent on fracking, particularly given that InfraStrat…”
“How does the Minister square that with the ministerial involvement of his predecessor, Nelson McCausland, interfering in where social houses are built for political, parading or electoral reasons.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way, and I have no difficulty in supporting this request for information sharing, but I have two short questions. First, he said that this is a tax on employment. Does he have any sort of a headline figure as to what the scale of the financial implications of this will be for local employers?”
“<BR /> <BR />Requirements are now being placed on the Department with regard to careers. That is a very positive development that the Minister brought forward after the Committee initiated a review of careers advice, which was then followed up by a piece of work that the Minister commissioned from an expert group on careers.”
The complete record
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“Maybe some people want to make an intervention; I am not sure. I can see Gregory's lips moving, but I do not see him rising in his place to get up and down. Maybe the DUP will contribute to the debate.”
“On average, those affected by the changes will be compensated by only 26% of the total amount that they lost through the cuts to the tax credit system by the increase to the minimum wage and will be worse off, on average, by £550 a year. For me, that is not a glowing commendation of the policies being pursued by the Tory Party in England, which, unfortunately, we are subject to here. <BR /> <BR />There has been an ongoing debate here about welfare cuts and proposed changes to the welfare system. It is important that we, as an Assembly, stand up and send a clear message that we are opposed to these measures and that they will have a deeply negative impact on the people we represent.”
“The Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) has carried out an extensive piece of work on the impact of the cuts to the tax credit system and the countering increase to the minimum wage, which, by the way, only benefits people who are over 25 and is a measly 50p an hour. The findings of the IFS paint a very bleak picture. The IFS found that, among households with someone in paid employment, those eligible for benefits and tax credits are estimated to lose an average of £750 a year as a result of the changes to the tax and benefits system, yet they will gain, on average, only £200 per year through the increase to the minimum wage.”
“The households below average income report published by the Department for Social Development last month shows that 21% of individuals or 376,000 people are in relative poverty. Countless families depend on the small amount of income that they get through the tax credit system merely to keep their heads above water.”
“They think — maybe they do not care — that everyone was born with a silver spoon in their mouth. That is not the case. Even though the people sitting round that table have considerable assets and considerable wealth, not everybody else in society has. Almost 40% of jobs in places like the north coast, Fermanagh and Omagh, and Mid Ulster district council areas are paid below the living wage. Compare that with parts of London where 5·2% of jobs are paid below the living wage. Proportionately, eight times as many people in some of our district council areas are paid below the living wage than is the case in London. <BR /> <BR />Statistics generated by the Asda income tracker reveal that the average discretionary income in London is now £254 a week, whereas here the figure is not even half that, at a mere £95 a week.”
“<BR /> <BR />Statistics released yesterday by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) in London show that a much greater proportion of workers here are paid below the living wage than in any part of Britain. That is the actual living wage, by the way, and not the new rate falsely promoted by neo-liberals and the Tories, which is actually just an increased minimum but still a poverty wage. The statistics from the ONS show that we cannot be lumped into the simple considerations of an economic policy designed to meet the needs of a small section of the population in the south and south-east of England. <BR /> <BR />Tory millionaires and billionaires sitting round a Cabinet table do not have a clue about the realities of everyday life for working families and for low and middle earners.”
“<BR /> <BR />Some, usually to the right of the political spectrum, will claim that the increase in the living wage will counter the cuts to the tax credit system, but they are wrong. I support the introduction of a proper living wage to all employees and believe that working people should be paid a rate that enables them to sustain a decent standard of living. I do not think that a Government should have to step in to top up the earnings of somebody in full-time employment, but too many employers avoid that responsibility, and now the Tory-led Government in England are shirking their responsibility to protect people in poverty once more.”
“As those people already have enough to meet their needs, they tend either to save or invest that money, hire a top-class accountant to make sure that they do not pay tax on it or buy luxurious items that are neither produced nor sold locally. Either way, that additional money brings little in the way of economic stimulus to the local community. <BR /> <BR />The proposed cuts to the tax credit system can in no way be claimed to be tackling people whom the Tories and their cheerleaders wrongly describe as "work-shy". Those affected by the cuts are, by and large, working people who are underpaid or underemployed but are, nonetheless, in employment. They deserve the support of a Government, instead of being pushed deeper into poverty and destitution.”
“It revealed that, in total, by 2019-2020, £105 million a year will be removed from the pockets of the least well-off through the changes to the tax credit system. Not only will that have a devastating, knock-on impact for those directly affected — 120,000 families will lose out by, on average, £918 a year — it will result in further constraints on the domestic economy. Every economic publication that I have studied on the matter clearly shows that those with least money spend what they have, usually in the local economy, which supports and sustains local employment and returns money in a cyclical fashion around the local economy. That is in direct contrast to what happens to money given to already wealthy people.”
“The recent Budget announced by George Osborne will lower the threshold at which payments to families start to reduce. Current tax credit payments start to reduce — what they call "taper" — once a family income reaches £6,420. From April 2016, the threshold at which payment starts to reduce will be £3,850. There are 109,000 claimants in this part of Ireland who earn about the £6,420 threshold and have a tapered tax credit award. Once the threshold is reduced to £3,850, those claimants will have their tax credit award reduced further. An additional 12,000 claimants will become subject to the taper once the threshold is reduced to £3,850. That information was published in a report produced by the Social Security Agency last month.”
“For many employees working in large companies, the tax credit system amounts to corporate welfare whereby, instead of employers paying their staff a decent living wage, the taxpayer has to step in and pay the difference. That is unfair on employees and on taxpayers. Companies earning hundreds of millions of pounds in profit every year should pay their staff enough so that they earn above the current threshold for tax credits. Employees in such profitable companies should not be living in poverty. Tax credits can also be paid to unemployed people with children. <BR /> <BR />Despite the success of the tax credit system in raising living standards and helping to prevent and take children out of poverty, which is scandalously high, the British Government, intent on imposing further unfair austerity measures, are changing how the system works.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Cuirim fáilte roimh an díospóireacht tábhachtach seo agus tá mé sásta a bheith ábalta labhairt ar an díospóireacht tábhachtach seo inniu. Many families here are reliant on the tax credits system to top up their earnings. Some are dependent on tax credits as a result of being in low-paid employment, and others need it because they cannot get enough hours to make enough money to bring them out of poverty. The current tax credits system, whilst not perfect, is a good system as it provides a safety net for many workers who may well be earning the minimum wage but are underpaid or underemployed to such an extent that they require additional financial support from the Government to have a decent standard of living.”
“Go raibh maith agat. The Minister did not really answer the question on that occasion. Does she now accept that her party has no credibility in the community, given the way its Ministers are coming in and out of office like 'Lanigan's Ball' and not dealing with scandalous waiting lists or other pertinent issues? Without a full-time Minister of Health in office, how will her party deal with the crisis in the health service?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. She is really on form today in providing informative and concise answers, which is good to see, even though we do not always agree with the content of them. Does the Minister agree that the release of timely and accurate information would give the public a greater insight into the workings of government and increase the confidence of businesses in Land and Property Services (LPS) and how it works?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for her update. It is welcome news to see the further decentralisation of jobs in the public sector to rural areas like Fermanagh. Will the Minister give us an indication of the advantages of having Forest Service located in Enniskillen?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I beg to introduce the Local Government (Numbers and Addresses of Buildings in Townlands) Bill [NIA 63/11-16], which is a Bill to amend the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 to make provision about the allocation of numbers to buildings and the format of addresses.”
“Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. Standing Order 19 does not deal with a situation where there is no Minister in office. Would it be possible for a change to be made in the Business Office so that questions can be tabled to the Minister in the event that there is no Minister in office and they can be subsequently answered, as is the case with some Ministers at the minute, when they return to office?”
“Is there any guidance that you can issue to Members with regard to how we can best comply with Standing Order 19 and the tabling of questions to Ministers, given that the primary function of this Assembly is, in fact, to hold the Executive to account, and not being able to table questions under Standing Order 19 presents us with some difficulty in doing that?”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Standing Order 19 deals with the tabling of questions by Members to Ministers and members of the Assembly Commission. Can you provide the House with guidance as to what is supposed to happen in the event of a Minister not being in office to take one of those questions? When Members table a question to the Business Office, we are informed by the Business Office that, as there is no Minister in office to answer that question, the question will be withdrawn, but the same system does not seem to fall under Standing Order 20, which deals with questions for oral answer, where questions can be submitted for oral answer at a time when there is no Minister in office to respond.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Can the Minister outline what consideration his Department has given to the notion of joint initiatives to mark the Easter rising of 1916 and the battle of the Somme, given that, regardless of what political perspective you come from, people across this island largely have an affinity with either one of those two significant events?”
“It might be a good thing for developers, speculators and financiers, but it is not a good thing for families or for society. It is certainly not a good thing for the rented sector, because many people are being priced out of it. We need to see additional regulation brought in to protect tenants and make sure that they are not treated unfairly by landlords.”
“The thing that I cannot understand is, if there is money to be made, why does the state not do it? Do it in a way that treats tenants fairly so that their rights are not abused, then use the surplus or profit that would be gained from renting out those properties to either reinvest in additional housebuilding to meet future demand or to retrofit existing and older properties. That seems to make sense to me, instead of just throwing it out to the private sector to do what it wants without any kind of regulation or safeguards for people who live in those houses. <BR /> <BR />The emphasis here, if you look at the media, is that increasing house prices is a good thing, but that is what got us into this problem. Elevating house prices were deemed to be a good thing.”
“Unfortunately, there does not seem to be a huge pile of regard given to them by some people in the House. <BR /> <BR />On the whole, when you look at it, we are too reliant on the private rented sector. We need to get additional investment into our social houses, because we are now in a situation where the private rented sector is the dominant force in renting houses. For the first time ever, it has the monopoly. There are now more houses rented privately than are rented through the social housing structure. That is a situation that we need to change. <BR /> <BR />We need to get additional investment into our social housing scheme, because there is obviously money to be made from renting houses. If there was not money to be made, why would there be so many landlords doing it?”
“The fact that tenants can just be thrown out for no reason and with 30 days' notice is a huge barrier to people who want to live in the private rented sector. Security of tenure just does not exist. <BR /> <BR />There is a unique culture in Ireland where people want to own their own houses, and that is a laudable target, but if you go to some other European countries, you will find that around 70% of the people live in the rented market. Most people accept that, once you die, you cannot take the house with you. Therefore, an awful lot of them are happy to live in rented accommodation, but all they want is to be treated fairly and to have security of tenure and to know that they are not going to be thrown out for no reason or simply on a whim. Those are the very serious issues that we are trying to address.”
“Therefore, if you are put out of your house because your landlord could not keep up with mortgage payments, or because they have changed their circumstances and want their son or daughter to move into the house, or because they have decided to sell the house because they are no longer in mortgage arrears and the price of the house has increased so that they can sell it off and clear the mortgage, you are faced with eviction through no fault of your own. Very often, there is no alternative accommodation for you and your young family in that area. Then, because there is no alternative accommodation, you are forced to move to another town or village and live somewhere else. The knock-on effect of that is that your children have to find alternative schooling arrangements.”
“I actually had to go through the small claims court to get money back from a landlord who had no legal basis for holding on to the deposit. That is a situation that very many people face. Unfortunately, very many people are put off by the barriers that exist when trying to access independent advice or when going through the courts to get their money back. We need to see those barriers removed so that tenants can have their rights. We also need to see greater regulation, so that tenants are treated fairly by their landlords. <BR /> <BR />If you look at the difference between the situation in urban and rural areas, you will see that there is a complete absence of alternative accommodation in many towns and villages across the North.”
“<BR /> <BR />I want to put on record a circumstance I had in the recent past with a previous landlord. When I was evicted from the property because of a change in the landlord's circumstances, numerous rules were broken. The landlord, completely, and flippantly, thought he could hold on to the deposit and tell me when to get out of the house, without providing written notice. The way in which landlords deal with their tenants is completely unacceptable. It is for that reason that organisations like Housing Rights and Citizens Advice Bureau are there to help people. I want to put on record my thanks to the Housing Rights service and to Fermanagh Citizens Advice Bureau, which helped me through a very difficult situation when I was trying to get a deposit back from a landlord.”
“Landlords seem to think that it is their money and that they can hold on to it. The whole rationale for the introduction of the tenancy deposit scheme is to make sure that landlords do not hold on to deposits when they have no legal basis for doing so. <BR /> <BR />You also have the situation where tenants are living in horrendous circumstances. As Members like Roy Beggs said, they are not receiving fair treatment, and private landlords do not carry out repairs in a speedy fashion. It could be something as straightforward as fixing a light, a broken shower or a blocked sewer. All these things are examples of where landlords are not quick enough in stepping up to the plate. I suppose there are criticisms that could also be thrown towards the Housing Executive, but that is a different matter.”
“Some of the issues facing people living in the private rented sector are quite simple: there is legislation that states that landlords have to keep rent books, but I do not think that too many are complying with that; and legislation has been introduced to allow an external organisation to hold on to deposits, but I do not think that that has been enforced properly. These are areas where we have introduced legislation here but it is not being enforced properly, usually by the local authorities that have the responsibility for policing it. <BR /> <BR />Then you have landlords who think that, when they get a deposit from a tenant, it is money for nothing and it is for them. They do not seem to think that they have to hand the money back to the tenant at the end of the tenancy agreement if no damage has been done to the house.”
“They are treated like dirt and are seen as a cash cow by landlords, who use them to maximise the income that they can get. It is not good enough for us to stand back and allow that to happen, whether those people are students, young families or older people who, for one reason or another, have not bought their own house and cannot get into social housing because of how the points system works. There is not enough social housing to meet demand, and, in many areas, only those with a considerable number of points can be accepted.”
“When you look at all these issues collectively, you see that they explain why there are so many problems in the rented sector. What we are looking for today is simple. We are not saying that landlords should not be allowed to operate, and we are not saying that they should not be able to make a profit. We want to see the introduction of proper regulation of private landlords. <BR /> <BR />Many Members have said that there are good landlords: there are. I have lived in houses across the North that have been owned by very good landlords, where you could not have asked for more, but I have also lived in houses that have been owned by very bad landlords who treat their tenants with contempt. That happens particularly in student housing, where very little regard is given to the human rights of the people living in a house.”
“The unavailability and inaccessibility of mortgages since the crash also presents a barrier to people in buying their own house, but it also creates a barrier to the ability of developers and individuals to build additional homes, whether in a commercial sense or on their own land or in their own town or village. <BR /> <BR />The number of social houses that have been sold off over the past 20 years has put serious pressure on availability in the social housing sector. More and more houses are being transferred out of public and into private ownership but are not being replaced with new ones. That puts serious pressure on the local private rented sector, as supply is not increasing to meet demand. <BR /> <BR />The final nail in the coffin is the declining investment in social housing across the North.”
“<BR /> <BR />The key issue before us today is the growth of the private rented sector, which remains unregulated despite considerable sums being paid to private landlords through housing benefit. It is my understanding that over £300 million a year is paid to landlords through housing benefit, yet those landlords are not subject to any regulation to make sure that their tenants are treated fairly. <BR /> <BR />There is no doubt that private landlords are needed and are here to stay, but the growth in recent times can be explained by many reasons. The reduced affordability of homes to buy over the past 10 years is a considerable barrier. If you link the average annual earnings of a family with the cost of buying a home, you will find that it is now less affordable for people in this generation to buy a home than at any time in the past.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Cuirim fáilte roimh an díospóireacht thábhachtach seo. I must admit that it is hard to wind up a debate that lasted for all of 25 or 30 minutes. I will make some comments of my own rather than respond to what a Minister has or has not said. <BR /> <BR />Like other Members, I declare an interest at the outset. However, unlike some other Members, I am not a landlord nor connected to them; I am a member of the private rented sector. Like very many people of my generation, we do not own our house. We do not live in social housing; we live in the private rented sector, so I know first-hand the difficulties that people living in the private rented sector face, and those pressures are growing.”
“I commend the Bill to the House. I thank the Minister for bringing it forward and wish it well as it passes through its later stages.”
“I do not know whether a review in two years is sufficient, but, at this stage, if that is the best that the Committee and Assembly can do to make sure that the Bill passes and that there is some future way of trying to solve the problem, it is something that I fully support.”
“One of the issues that needs to be sorted out at Committee Stage is whether that is actually the case and how we can find a creative solution to that problem. Whilst we are all in favour of an amendment to clause 1 to allow membership bodies, partnerships or corporate organisations to hold accounts in the name of their company, nobody wants a situation where, if a credit union fails, they will not be entitled to get their savings back, like other bodies would. <BR /> <BR />There exists a problem. A solution is not going to be straightforward, but, if a bit of work were done, we could find something. It is something that I want to see teased out a bit further. I encourage the Committee to explore it.”
“I do not know off the top of my head, Trevor. Perhaps the Minister will address the difference in credit union organisations, North and South, when he makes his closing remarks. Maybe somebody will get him the answer if I keep going for longer, but I assure you, Trevor, that I am nearly finished. <BR /> <BR />One of the issues that has been presented to us is the outworkings of the financial services compensation scheme. There is a claim that, if a credit union fails, compensation will not be paid to an unincorporated body because such a body does not exist in law. It is claimed that, if an organisation wanted to get a payment, that could happen only if the account is held in the name of an individual.”
“You are right, Trevor: it is the same issue. It is now open to partnerships, but the account has to be in the name of one individual, which does not really make sense. It does not make it a partnership, because it seems that one person has more access to the account than others. These are the types of issues that need to be sorted out. The Committee has engaged with people in England who provide advice to the Department on this. It is clear that there are no legislative barriers to making that change. If the Assembly wanted to introduce a change around offering or allowing membership bodies or corporate bodies or partnerships to hold accounts in their name, that is within the legislative competence of the House.”
“At the end of the day, if that service can be offered by banks, and the whole purpose of this legislation is to put credit unions on a par with the banks, that is a solution that we need to find.”
“<BR /> <BR />If we do not find a solution to that problem, organisations will be reluctant to move their accounts from banks to credit unions. An account held in the name of an organisation in a bank holds much greater weight than an account held in a credit union in the name of an individual. When a business, particularly a small business, is paying bills and is using a cheque with the name of an individual on the account, as opposed to a bank cheque account with the name of the business, there may well be some questions about the sincerity or status of that business. In terms of how we support our local business community and credit unions, I encourage members of the Committee, the Department and the Minister to find a solution that allows accounts to be held in the name of the organisation instead of just the name of an individual.”
“That issue is the one remaining bone of contention for both credit union organisations. They want to see change. In the interests of getting the legislation passed and into statute, they are content for it to proceed as it is, but they really want to see a solution where corporate bodies, community and voluntary organisations and sporting clubs can open accounts in the name of those organisations as opposed to the name of an individual. That is something that we need to continue to explore. We are at only the Second Stage of the Bill; there is still a Committee Stage and a Consideration Stage to go through yet. With some creative and imaginative thinking, we can come up with a solution whereby accounts could be held in the names of organisations as opposed to individuals.”
“<BR /> <BR />As some other Members have said, I have some concerns about the implications of clause 1 and the fact that an account cannot be held in the name of an organisation but must be held in the name of an individual. I think that Trevor, despite not having access to the papers coming through the Committee, is largely across those issues when he talks about the potential for fraud within organisations, given that accounts are going to be held in the name of a single individual, as opposed to the safeguards that would be in place if it was done through the name of an organisation.”
“<BR /> <BR />The big plus side of the Bill, which the Irish League of Credit Unions and the Ulster Federation of Credit Unions warmly welcome, is that for the first time it will allow credit unions to offer membership to corporate bodies, partnerships and community and voluntary organisations. That is a significant opportunity for all those bodies, as well as for credit unions, to expand their customer base. As someone who previously ran a business and is now heavily involved in a number of community and voluntary organisations, I know that there is certainly a demand among those organisations to avail themselves of the services of a credit union, which is owned and operated in the interests of its members.”
“Those are SMEs and the workers whose labour makes a direct contribution to the economic prosperity that was squandered by developers, speculators and banks over recent years. It is clear that credit unions can plug the gap in the difficulty in accessing finance that exists, as there are fewer constraints for members seeking to borrow money against their own savings or shares. <BR /> <BR />This legislative opportunity is also being used to implement legislative changes for industrial and provident societies (IPS). The Bill updates two pieces of legislation that govern the operation of credit unions and IPS respectively. Furthermore, the Bill will give credit unions and IPS greater operational flexibility while seeking to ensure that that flexibility does not put at risk the prudential running of such organisations.”
“<BR /> <BR />Since the early 1960s, credit unions have provided accessible finance for families and individuals and would, if properly empowered through the legislation, be able to provide a lifeline to SMEs and local economies in the present context. They could also provide much-needed investment in social economy projects that would help impoverished communities. In the present economic downturn, government focus seems to be on protecting the interests of the large financial institutions, with little regard for those who are involved in community projects. Until now, little attention has been given to assisting those most directly affected by the historic financial situation that we are facing.”
“The credit union movement emerged because many working-class communities were in the grip of moneylenders and did not have the financial collateral required by banks as security against borrowings. That same situation still prevails today. Credit unions can offer a cost-effective solution to the scandalous offerings of payday lenders and loan sharks. The same motivation that was used to establish the credit union movement should now be applied to inject momentum into the local economy and to help people who are in financial distress but also to offer a lifeline to SMEs, the social economy and community and voluntary organisations, which, once the legislation is passed, will be able to use credit unions for the first time.”
“That is the fundamental difference between the credit union movement and banks. The banks want to take as much profit as they can from people and siphon it off for their shareholders. The credit union movement is owned by people who do not financially benefit more than any other members in it. Any profit or surplus that the credit union movement makes is either returned back to its membership or returned and invested into the local economy. <BR /> <BR />The credit union movement, as has been said, was introduced to Ireland in the 1960s by community activists across the island concerned at the disadvantage experienced by working-class people in accessing credit.”
“<BR /> <BR />In an age when it is becoming more and more difficult to make day-to-day financial transactions without the use of a bank account, I believe that restrictions on credit unions offering a wider range of financial services, including mortgages and electronic banking, to meet the changing needs of their customers should be removed. Those barriers need to be done away with, and that is one of the key purposes of the legislation. In the present financial climate, it is imperative that people have access to the most competitive rates that are available for saving and borrowing. <BR /> <BR />As I have said, credit unions are community-based, and the added income from the expanded services they should be able to offer could be invested in the local or social economy for the benefit of the community to which the credit union belongs.”
“In my opinion, the credit union movement has the potential to ease the pressure on the local economy. Given the current state of the banking sector and its low approval rate for loans and mortgages, as well as a complete reluctance to offer people short-term overdrafts to meet unexpected pressures, the removal of existing barriers to credit unions and allowing them to offer those services is a very welcome step. It is something that will make a real and significant difference to the way that local communities bank and that will ease the financial burden on many.”