Phil Flanagan
Fermanagh and South Tyrone · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for his answer. There is an old guise that you should never ask a question that you do not know the answer to. The question that I submitted asked the Minister how many social houses had been started in the 2015-16 financial year, but somehow it was changed.”
“I thank the Minister for his attempt to answer the question. I put him on notice that it was not he who initiated the process, but I am looking for him to intervene and stop it as a locally elected representative. <BR /> <BR />There are roughly 1,000 people on the housing waiting list in Fermanagh, and nearly 300 of those are in stress.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a fhreagra. I thank the Minister for his answer. The licence has not been extended, but does the Minister accept that the decision to extend InfraStrata's time frame for a work programme sets a dangerous precedent on fracking, particularly given that InfraStrat…”
“How does the Minister square that with the ministerial involvement of his predecessor, Nelson McCausland, interfering in where social houses are built for political, parading or electoral reasons.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way, and I have no difficulty in supporting this request for information sharing, but I have two short questions. First, he said that this is a tax on employment. Does he have any sort of a headline figure as to what the scale of the financial implications of this will be for local employers?”
“<BR /> <BR />Requirements are now being placed on the Department with regard to careers. That is a very positive development that the Minister brought forward after the Committee initiated a review of careers advice, which was then followed up by a piece of work that the Minister commissioned from an expert group on careers.”
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“I will not, Gregory, no. <BR /> <BR />A Fermanagh MLA held the position of Enterprise, Trade and Investment (ETI) Minister for nearly eight years, and the county was neglected just as much under that leadership as it was under direct rule. Two thousand people left Fermanagh last year, mainly to get work. <BR /> <BR />Many people think, and I am one, that it does not suit some unionist politicians for jobs to be created in areas with large nationalist populations, or along the border, as they are more likely to be filled by nationalists or, heaven forbid, by people who live across the border. Those mindsets remain to the fore in many unionist politicians.”
“It is also partly the legacy of decades of deliberate underinvestment in areas with large nationalist populations, as the majority of both government and private investment was directed, for both political and gerrymandering reasons, into already affluent unionist areas.”
“It is forcing the displacement of our people to already overcrowded, overpriced and under pressure urban communities, and that leaves our rural areas like ghost towns that are struggling for viability and sustainability. <BR /> <BR />It is not a new policy, but it has worsened as a result of the changing economic conditions in recent years and the switch to focusing on attracting jobs in the service sector as opposed to the manufacturing sector. Jobs in the manufacturing sector were more likely to be based in rural communities as a result of the comparatively cheaper price of land and the availability of space as well as a range of other issues.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Cuirim fáilte roimh an díospóireacht tábhachtach seo. I welcome that we are debating this issue once again. We debated it about two years ago, and progress has been slim to date. Hopefully, this motion will be the impetus for corrective action to resolve what has been a long-standing issue. <BR /> <BR />In 2014-15, almost 40% of the jobs that were promoted with Invest NI support were in the Belfast City Council area, with two thirds of all the jobs promoted being east of the Bann. That is not reflective of the overall economic output in this region or the location of our people, as only 18% of the North's population actually lives in the Belfast City Council area.”
“I will be honest: I was not really listening to the Minister's answer, so I do not know whether he has answered my question or not, but I presume that he has not, because I am asking him about something else. Can he give us an update on the scheme announced in June, similar to the plastic bag tax? He proposes to bring in a deposit-return scheme for bottles. Can he give us any update on that off the top of his head?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his answers. I note that there is no firm opinion from him on what his or his party's view is on our future position within Europe. Will he give us an indication of whether he would be willing to support the call for any decision on a referendum here to be binding, so that if the majority of people here vote to stay within the European Union, that is what should happen?”
“There is an onus on us as an Assembly to do all that we can to facilitate, encourage and promote that. I think the Bill is an excellent first step. I hope that it passes. I am sure it will; it seems to have cross-party support and is something that all MLAs have spoken positively about in the past. I wish members of the Committee well as they strive to carry out the Committee Stage that will follow. I will keep a close eye on the Bill.”
“<BR /> <BR />I recognise that we are conferring a power to encourage and facilitate shared education on the Education Authority, the Department, the library boards and a couple of other organisations, but I just wonder whether that mindset remains within the higher echelons of those organisations, and how we as an Assembly and a society can challenge those mindsets and try to get the people who are in leadership positions in those organisations to take the views of people in society and actually move ahead with joint area planning, as was requested or mandated of them by the Minister of Education. <BR /> <BR />In conclusion, it is clear to see that our young people benefit educationally, personally and intellectually from engaging with people from another community or another background.”
“<BR /> <BR />I will express some concern about what I see as the entrenched positions of the former education and library boards and CCMS. The Minister announced his plans to carry out the area planning process in September 2012 or 2013 — I cannot remember which year it was. It is clear to see, when you look through the reports that were generated, that there was not enough joint planning done. CCMS went and did its plan and the education and library board did its plan, but there was no effort made to join those two things together, despite the fact that, in many communities, there was a strong desire for joint planning to take place to provide the best possible education for our young people in a joint approach. The statutory bodies were somewhat behind.”
“It is good to see the Assembly coming together to give statutory bodies the legislative power to facilitate and encourage shared education, but it is not about competing, and it is not contrary to the views of those who articulate a vision for integrated education. Not all of our citizens are at a place where they want to see integrated education yet. Many people in our society do, and several opinion polls indicate the support that exists for it, but there are some within our society who are not there yet. The provision of an option of shared education to those people will highlight the benefits that moving to such a system can bring. It is complementary to the whole notion of integrated education, which grows year on year, but the concept of shared education is growing as well, and it is something that we should encourage.”
“We do not have the same situation as in Belfast, where they have peace walls between our two communities. We have completely divided our society, and people live in different places. That is the way it is done. There is not necessarily anything wrong with it, but in how we break down the barriers and get our people to engage with it, it is widely accepted that we need to start at an early age and get people mixing from other backgrounds at as early an age as possible. That is why the shared education programme has been hugely successful. <BR /> <BR />I think we would all agree that, if we were starting with a blank canvas, we would not put in place the systems and mechanisms that we have for providing education today, but this is a step in the right direction.”
“All of us come from different backgrounds and mentalities, and it is important that we allow young people, at an early age, to establish that there are other people out there who hold different views. That is one of the key benefits of the shared education programme, and it also helps to break down community relations and tensions between communities. <BR /> <BR />We do not have peace walls in Fermanagh. We do not live cheek by jowl with people from the other community. In Fermanagh, by and large, there are whole villages made up of more than 95% of one or other section of the community. Take the village of Kesh, which is predominantly Protestant or unionist, and then take a village such as Rosslea, which is, on the other hand, more than 95% nationalist.”
“Protestant schools from the South come up to engage with children from a Catholic background in the North, which is tremendous, because not only do we have a problem in the North with children from both backgrounds not engaging with each other but we have a serious problem with neighbours from Fermanagh and Leitrim or Fermanagh and Donegal not engaging. The shared education programme in Fermanagh has also helped to break down those barriers. <BR /> <BR />In engaging with parents, teachers and school leaders across Fermanagh, it is easy to see the empirical evidence of the benefits of shared education in how it helps our children to develop, to broaden their minds and to know that their identity is not the only one. There is no one identity here that is more right or more justified than the other.”
“The leadership shown by the organisations involved in developing and rolling out shared education, as well as by the parents and school communities that have embraced it, has given us all an insight into how popular this area is and how much demand exists, so it is only right and proper that we see legislation being brought forward to enhance it further. <BR /> <BR />It is also important to reflect on the success of the shared education programme in Fermanagh, in the sense that it is not just cross-community but cross-border. A number of the maintained schools along the border corridor regularly engage and share with minority Protestant schools on the other side of the border.”
“<BR /> <BR />I commend the leadership shown by the Fermanagh Trust, which is one of the key organisations behind the shared education programme, and its trustees and staff, as well as the school communities in Fermanagh and across the North that have embraced this concept. The principals, staff and boards of governors of those schools have shown tremendous leadership for their communities in articulating what the benefits of shared education could mean for our society. This is much bigger than any individual child, family or school community; this is about trying to build a better future for all our young people.”
“She was able to tell me that she had met her young friends whom she had not seen since preschool. <BR /> <BR />It is good that the programme is in place to allow children to make new friendships with people from a different background and also to keep existing friendships going. All too often, we hear stories of people from different generations who really did not engage or make friends with people from another background. I am talking about people from a Catholic tradition, a Protestant tradition and neither, who do not get to engage with people from another community until much later in life, whether in the workplace or at university. The shared education programme, and the concept of providing our children with the opportunity to engage in shared education, is a good opportunity to give them.”
“As Members know, the county of Fermanagh has played a leading role in the development of the shared education programme and in rolling it out across the county so that people from Fermanagh, from all sections of our community, have had the chance to engage. My daughter, who is in P2, participates in the shared education programme in St Mary's Primary School in Tempo with Tempo Primary School, which is a controlled school. She thoroughly enjoys it, primarily because she went to a cross-community preschool — the only one in the village. She made a number of friends there who were not from a Catholic background and who now attend the controlled primary school. When she went into P1 and the shared education programme was brought to the school for the first afternoon, I saw such joy in that child's face when I came home.”
“I am keen to hear from the Minister, either today or at a later stage, as to how that will be advanced.”
“The legislation and policy is underpinned by the whole notion of Sharing Works, which is a policy for shared education. The four clauses of the Bill are quite self-explanatory, and anyone who is interested in reading them can, or probably already has. <BR /> <BR />One of the recommendations from the Committee inquiry that I would like to give some consideration to deals with the whole issue of measurement. Recommendation 6 of the inquiry stated that:”
“The Committee also felt that the statutory objective to encourage, facilitate and promote shared education should be extended to the Department and arm's-length bodies, and with that in mind I welcome the proposals contained in the Shared Education Bill. <BR /> <BR />The clear intent of the Bill is to provide a legislative definition of shared education, which is missing from legislation at the minute. There is a lot of talk about shared education, but there is not really any great understanding of what it means. A legislative definition of shared education will be very welcome. <BR /> <BR />The Bill will confer a power on the Department and its arm's-length bodies to both encourage and facilitate shared education, and it sets in train when the legislation will kick in.”
“It is only right that I commend the leadership of MLAs from all parties in this Chamber who, in their role as community leaders, have grasped the issue of shared education and promoted it, but also the small number of MLAs who, as parents of children participating in the shared education programme, have really taken the bull by the horns and engaged with their school communities, their peers and other parents to sell the benefits of the programme. It is good to see parents and MLAs from all sides doing that. <BR /> <BR />During the Committee inquiry into shared education, members of the Committee felt strongly that societal objectives were important and should extend beyond reconciliation of the two largest groups in our society in order to fully incorporate all section 75 groups.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I start by paying tribute to you following your announcement this morning. Your leadership and vision in this place, both as an MLA and as Speaker, will be badly missed. I had the pleasure to serve with you when you were Assembly private secretary (APS) to the Minister of Education, and it was a thoroughly enjoyable role, but unfortunately I was not left on the Education Committee long enough to cause the Minister too many problems. That is the role of a Back-Bench MLA. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the opportunity to take part in the Second Stage debate on the Shared Education Bill. I start by acknowledging the very many solid examples of sharing and cooperation by many schools across many different sectors.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer, but he will establish me in puzzlement later. Does the Minister believe that Steps 2 Success is a worthwhile programme? There have been 21,000 participants until June 2015, but only 1,500 did so voluntarily. That is less than 9% and at a total cost of £14 million to your Department. Will the Minister tell us whether he thinks it is a worthwhile scheme or whether his Department is merely implementing a lightened version of the work programme that has been so ridiculed in England?”
“It would be unacceptable to me if landlords could find out what previous activities tenants had been involved in but there was no mechanism for tenants to find out about the potential past activities of a small number of rogue landlords who still exist. Dealing with antisocial tenants is a problem for social housing providers, and I support, once again, what is a very narrowly focused element of the Bill. <BR /> <BR />Those are the two most substantial clauses in the Bill. I commend the Minister for his efforts. I support him in his deliberations in trying to bring this Bill forward, and I look forward to working with fellow members of the Committee in the next stage of the Bill.”
“<BR /> <BR />I do think that this is a sensible proposal on how we protect social landlords in making sure that repeat antisocial offenders are not abusing their rights as tenants and damaging homes or damaging communities. However, I also think that there is a need for a reciprocal arrangement for tenants to find out such information about their landlords, because we have heard a call from landlords in the private rented sector that they should have access to this information too to see how landlords in the private sector have previously behaved. If we are ever going to go down such a road, I do think that we want to see a reciprocal arrangement where information on landlords and their past behaviour with tenants should also be shared with tenants.”
“Once again, it is a straightforward proposal, but I would like to see some detail about how this information will be shared in a way that complies with the various data protection Acts that exist and how that can be done uniformly across our 11 councils so that it is done with a system or a mechanism where the information can be easily accessed and it is not a situation like we have at the minute where there may be 11 different databases and, if you want information, somebody has to trawl through a book or a different form of a spreadsheet. That might be quite time-consuming and take a long list of people to try to get to the bottom of it. If this information is going to be shared, it needs to be done in such a way that people can access it easily and that there is uniformity across the system in how it is stored.”
“Clause 2 deals with antisocial behaviour, and this is an important aspect that does need to be resolved because, too often, we hear from the Housing Executive and social housing providers that there is a small minority of tenants who are engaged in antisocial behaviour and that they have few mechanisms for establishing the prior activities of a social tenant in previous accommodation provision.”
“However, if we are going to be faced with a situation where there is no investment in many rural areas over the next five years, then it is unacceptable that Housing Executive or housing association properties or, indeed, private houses, which agencies think that people are living in, are lying empty. We need to see more being done to bring those houses back into occupation. The same goes for properties that are nearly finished. Much more needs to be done to bring those properties up to a standard where they can be completed, so that people in need can be put into them. The section of information to be shared, as proposed in the Bill, is very narrow, but it is a fairly common-sense approach, so we would all support that.”
“If you look at many of the Housing Executive investment plans, you will see that in my constituency of Fermanagh and South Tyrone, the vast majority of areas will not see any investment in new social housing before 2020. Putting vacant properties back into use is the only avenue that we will have to try to get more tenants into social housing over the next five years. <BR /> <BR />I still think that much more investment is needed and that the Housing Executive needs to do more to demonstrate that there is a need for social housing in communities.”
“I would be keen to hear what the Minister has to say about that, because when we raised it with the Department, we were told that work was ongoing and that efforts were being made to deal with the issue of sharing information from electricity supply companies and whether those properties were, indeed, empty or not. It would be useful to hear from the Minister about that, because when we raised it at the Committee we were told that that work was ongoing. Perhaps the Minister will give us a more concrete update today on how information from electricity supply companies can be better shared with the Housing Executive and social housing providers to tackle empty properties and the potential for tenancy fraud, which, we are told, is a significant issue. <BR /> <BR />With regard to the potential for housing families.”
“It is something that we can all support to make better use of existing residential properties that could be taken out of the vacant or abandoned column and occupied by families or citizens in need. It would not only deliver major improvements for those who now reside in the property but would help to regenerate communities where empty premises are a blight and are often a centre for attracting antisocial behaviour. It is a straightforward proposal that we would all support. <BR /> <BR />During the informal work that the Committee has done to date, we discussed with the Department the potential for sharing other forms of information.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. I welcome the debate. As Members have said, the Bill is short and fairly straightforward legislation. It is much shorter than the other Bill that the Minister is trying to bring through the House. The Second Stage debate, as has been mentioned, is concerned with the principles of the Bill, and I, like others, will try my best to adhere to those broad principles. <BR /> <BR />The sharing of information, with particular emphasis on empty properties, and the potential for the rating agency and LPS to share information about empty properties with statutory agencies and social housing providers, is a logical step.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a fhreagra. I thank the Minister for his answer. Will he indicate whether he is willing to engage with his counterpart in the South, Jan O'Sullivan, who has also commenced the process of trying to develop guidance for transgender students? Does he accept that there is merit in not only surveying students here but taking the view of the maximum number of people across the island of Ireland in order to develop the best possible practice?”
“Am I seriously to believe that no Members of this House who will oppose this motion have sons or daughters who are members of the LGBT community and who feel shunned by society as a result of the attitudes of what I hope will be a minority of MLAs opposing equal marriage? Those Members will not only be on the wrong side of history but on the wrong side of the present.”
“Of course, the party opposite would, I believe, oppose once again the decriminalisation of homosexuality and the introduction of civil partnerships, if they were debated today. <BR /> <BR />The referendum in the South was a joyous occasion. It was an excellent demonstration in public debate of how citizens can engage in a debate and bring round their politicians, some of whom were very reluctant to champion this issue. We now see senior figures in the Government in the South acting as cheerleaders for equal marriage, despite their personal concerns at the start. <BR /> <BR />The campaign needs to continue. The campaign in the South was won not just by members of the LGBT community but by their families and friends.”
“The message that is being sent out is that we do not treat the love between two citizens the same as the love between two other citizens. I do not agree with that. The love between any two citizens may be as strong and as valid as the love between any other two citizens. <BR /> <BR />Once again, we see the shameful use and abuse of the petition of concern by the DUP. They are using a mechanism that was established to protect minorities to force their own narrow, outdated, religious dogma on all our citizens, regardless of the beliefs of those citizens. Despite the petition of concern, I am hopeful that, on this occasion, a majority of MLAs will deliver a moral victory by supporting this motion for marriage equality.”
“<BR /> <BR />People who engage in debate, whether in this House, on radio or TV talk shows, or from the audience of TV shows, should not use offensive and degrading terms to refer to people who are merely crying out for equality. Do we really want to send out the message that, in this state, the love between two citizens who happen to be in the LGBT community is a lesser love than that of any other couple? That is a very dangerous message to put out. The prejudices and the stigma behind that message are exactly why we have such poor figures for mental health problems, self-harm and suicide in the LGBT community. People in this House really need to wise up and realise the message that they are sending out. Some have said that, by bringing back this motion every six months, we send out a very poor message.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. I was concerned that Mr McNarry raised his point of order because I was to speak next; but I will not take it personally if he does so again in 15 minutes. <BR /> <BR />Many more couples are choosing to marry outside the Church. The number of marriages in non-religious, civil institutions, such as town halls, hotels and other facilities, is increasing. In a recent opinion poll, 68% of people indicated that they support the extension of the right to marry to people in the LGBT community. That shows widespread public support for this change. We as MLAs have a duty to listen to and represent the views of a growing number of people in our society.”
“In my view, such a move does not threaten the institution of my marriage, and I certainly do not think that anybody else who is married should feel threatened by it in any way at all. It does not demean the existing marriage of any couple. <BR /> <BR />This is not a religious matter. Protections should be afforded to religious institutions to ensure that, as Members have said, they are not forced into carrying out religious ceremonies that go against their own teaching. However, there are two aspects to the celebrant's role: there is the religious aspect and the civil aspect. We want to see that those individuals who carry out marriages are allowed to carry out a civil marriage between two individuals from the LGBT community.”
“However, marriage is also a civil matter; it is not just a religious matter. When you get married in a religious institution, you get handed paperwork on behalf of the Church, but the person carrying out the ceremony also hands you a civil certificate to say that you are married. Even though there is only one ceremony, there are two key aspects to it; there is the civil aspect, and there is the aspect of the marriage where the couple believe that they are married in the eyes of God. <BR /> <BR />I would like to see civil marriage being extended to allow citizens of the same sexual orientation or from the transgender community to marry. I do not think that that is a huge risk for all of us to take.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Cuirim fáilte roimh an rún seo. <BR /> <BR />I fully support the rights of all our citizens to avail themselves of all of the same rights and services as everyone in our society. Their gender, race, religion or sexual orientation should not be a factor in the determination of such a matter. I believe that that right extends to marriage. <BR /> <BR />Some in our society, and some in the House, may well have argued that mixed race or mixed religious marriages should not be legal. Those people were on the wrong side of history, to quote one of the Members of the House recently. <BR /> <BR />We all recognise that, for some in our society, marriage is often a religious sacrament. I was married in a religious ceremony in a Catholic church. In fact, my wife and I went to Rome just to make sure.”
“Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I think that the Standing Order that the Member references, and I am sure you are going to quote it, highlights that the Speaker can make such a determination if he feels that the views of all Members have been heard. I am sure that the Assembly is keen to hear the views of all representatives here and not just the views of those in the largest parties. I am particularly keen to hear the views of the naughty corner, as Mr McNarry likes to call it. Is he now saying that he does not want the people in that corner to be heard? I think that it is worthwhile to hear from all individuals in the House.”
“I hear what you are saying, Mr Deputy Speaker, and far be it from me to put a man of your stature into a difficult position at this hour of the night. <BR /> <BR />My question concerns whether the Member has any understanding of whether the party opposite is opposed to the proposal to offer 100% rate relief to community and amateur sports clubs or whether its opposition stems from the fact that it is Mr McKay who brought forward the proposal.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Having listened to the Member's speech and, indeed, having read the Hansard report of the recent presentation by departmental officials to the Finance and Personnel Committee, I find what the Minister said to be confusing and contradictory. On the one hand, she said that this is not the right way to go about it, that the consultation document and the consultation process were allegedly flawed and that there is a better way in which to introduce an extension of rate relief for clubs. On the other hand, she said that we cannot afford it.”
“Will the Member give way before he concludes?”
“The Member is talking about red herrings and issues of that nature that the Minister raised. One of the issues that she kept falling back on was the issue of competition between hotels and amateur sports clubs, as if they were competing on a level playing field. Does the Member think that hotels, which are there to generate a profit for their owners or shareholders, are comparable to amateur sports clubs, which reinvest any kind of surplus at all that they get into playing facilities and service for their local communities, or does he think that hotels compete with amateur sports clubs for trade in a local community?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. It is probably best to declare an interest as a member of an amateur sports club that pays rates of £1,700 a year. I was at a meeting of that organisation last night, and people were aghast at the proposed petition of concern from the DUP. I have fielded a number of calls in the past 24 hours from amateur sporting clubs in my constituency. They had been delighted to hear that the Bill was going through and are now furious that it will not happen.”
“I thank the Minister for her generosity on this occasion. Perhaps she can clarify to the House whether the DUP, which she represents, received a copy of the consultation document and whether the party submitted a response to the consultation.”
“If we give more and more of our people a living wage, that would seriously help to tackle poverty, which is a serious problem in our society. The proposed cuts to the tax credit system are a regressive step. They will take us back a generation in terms of the number of families and children living in poverty. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the amendment from the Ulster Unionist Party. I do not have any great opposition to it. I am prepared to listen to what it has to say. I do not think that the House should divide on the matter. I encourage people to support the motion and, if they want, the amendment. I commend the motion to the House.”
“It would certainly be welcome to see Members from all parties rising in their place to contribute to the debate and to send a clear message to David Cameron and George Osborne that we do not accept their political ideology of cutting money that is going to the most vulnerable people in our societies. <BR /> <BR />People who are working hard, living in poverty and trying their best need a hand up; they do not need a foot on their head to keep them down. Unfortunately, those are the policies that are being forced on us. We need to adopt a different approach where we invest money to bring people out of poverty. There is an alternative to the proposals that are in front of us. We need to see people being paid a proper living wage.”