Robin Swann
North Antrim · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for his detailed statement. I know how passionate he is about the subject and how many times he has brought it to the Executive.”
“It has been reported that today will potentially be the warmest day of the year. As we move into the summer and our summer holidays, I want to raise public awareness of wildfires across Northern Ireland, which have been detrimental to farmland and our environment over the past number of years.”
“Wildfires are still having a detrimental impact on our environment and, occasionally, on livestock, but that reduction shows the impact of the Northern Ireland Fire and Rescue Service's proactive approach to educating the general public and engaging with rural communities and schools on its fire safety message, which is to stay alert, not…”
“There has been a lot of talk of sport in this place over the past few days, with everybody concentrating on UEFA. One sport that is going on across Northern Ireland at the minute is cross-community and goes across all age groups without fear, favour or distinction: pigeon racing.”
“I want to put on record that, since this place passed the amendment that recognised pigeon racing as a sport under the 2016 Act, over the past five years, pigeon racing clubs across Northern Ireland have been able to obtain £113,000 of rates rebates through the sports and recreation rate relief, allowing many of those clubs to continue ra…”
“There was much coverage on social media over the weekend of an incident in Staines in England, in which a police car rammed a young calf to bring it under control. It has restarted the conversation about animal cruelty. <BR /> <BR />I am dealing with a specific case in my constituency.”
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“I thank the Member for his question. In 2017, in response to steadily rising demand, the Northern Ireland Ambulance Service carried out an extensive demand and capacity review, which recommended a significant increase in the Northern Ireland Ambulance Service workforce and the introduction of a new clinical response model to obtain more effective performance targets and to improve efficiency and safety. <BR /> <BR />Implementing the new CRM is one of my Department's transformation priorities and is a key enabler of the wider health service reform that is required to meet our long-term population health needs under Delivering Together. That, however, is largely dependent on growing the paramedic workforce. The full implementation will therefore require additional funding to recruit and train sufficient numbers of paramedics.”
“Their need for care and protection remains. I conclude by reflecting on the well-known proverb that "it takes a village to raise a child", which means that, in addition to a safe and loving home, a child needs support from and positive interaction with an entire community — an extended family of friends, carers, teachers and many others — in order to thrive in life. The passage of this Bill marks an important step towards ensuring that some of the most vulnerable children in Northern Ireland will receive the care and protection to which they have a fundamental right. I commend the Bill to the House.”
“There will be an extensive public consultation on that detail, and Members and stakeholders, including the children and young people, will continue to play a vital role by sharing their views, experiences and expertise throughout that important next phase. <BR /> <BR />It is 35 years since the previous major reform of Northern Ireland adoption law took place. During that time, Northern Ireland society has thankfully changed, adapted, developed and evolved in many ways, but the fundamental needs of children and young people remain unchanged.”
“<BR /> <BR />Ms Bradshaw said that listening to Colm and me filled her "heart with joy". I am not sure how often any politician in this place has been able to use that sentence. I thank Ms Bradshaw for her comment, because it sums up the working relationship between the Health Committee and officials to get the Bill to the place that it should be, which is that where the legislation will give support to the children and young people and their carers and prospective adoptive parents across Northern Ireland who need it. <BR /> <BR />As I mentioned, in many ways, the work to give effect to the Bill has only just begun. It will now be for my Department to set out in secondary legislation and guidance the operational detail of the changes that we agree today.”
“It is expected that the majority of children who are displaced from Ukraine and seeking refuge will be with a parent or carer and will therefore not be considered to be an unaccompanied minor in need of transfer into the care of a health and social care trust, but support mechanisms are being put in place by the Home Office, supported by all Departments. <BR /> <BR />Mr Chambers acknowledged that today is a good day and gave his thanks to the staff involved. Ms Bradshaw mentioned his contribution to bringing forward subsequent legislation on the preservation of documents, which had been outside the scope of the Bill. That will be equally important, but, as Ms Bradshaw also indicated, that Bill came out of the engagement process on this Bill as being something that was necessary. I thank Mr Chambers for taking on that work.”
“I only hope that that continues not only over the next weeks and months but well into the next mandate. <BR /> <BR />Mr McGrath raised issues about incoming children, owing to the situation in Ukraine. Although not directly related to the crisis in Ukraine, last week, my Department launched an appeal for foster carers and supported lodging hosts to provide a safe home for refugee children who arrive in Northern Ireland without a parent or guardian. That work has therefore already been done.”
“We have been able to progress the legislation by working together — not only the Department and the Health Committee but all parties — on all the issues. <BR /> <BR />The Adoption and Children Bill, the Organ and Tissue Donation (Deemed Consent) Bill and the now Health and Social Care Act (Northern Ireland) 2022 are all major pieces of legislation that have been brought through the House recently in a spirit of collaboration and support. It has been a pleasure to work with the members of the Health Committee on the Bill and on other legislation, because they have kept party politics out of health issues, as we promised that we would and committed to doing when we came back in this mandate. That is why we have been able to achieve such significant legislation.”
“I will comment briefly on some of the contributions from Members. I thank the Chair for his stewardship of the Committee and for his support for a Bill that was introduced with, as Mr McGrath indicated, 160 clauses and five schedules. Managing and delivering on that was a significant piece of work. I also thank him for his contribution and acknowledge the role played by the young people and their carers with whom the Committee engaged. <BR /> <BR />As I said, the Bill has been 16 years in development. Many people were engaged with who, I am sure, felt let down when that engagement did not produce the desired outcome, but I am thankful that we are where we are today with the Bill's Final Stage. As Mr McGrath and the Deputy Chair, Pam Cameron, indicated, the Bill shows the best of this place.”
“I am grateful to Members not only for their contribution today but for their unwavering support for the Bill throughout its passage. The legislation will be all the more effective in practice because of their contributions and those of the many children and young people, adoptive parents and foster carers who provided valuable insight into their experiences and needs during the development of the Bill. I commend officials and social workers in the Health and Social Care Board, the five health and social care trusts and the many voluntary organisations that support children's social care and adoption in Northern Ireland for their input to the legislation over many years and for the superb work that they do every day, often in challenging circumstances, to improve the lives of vulnerable children and young people.”
“Finally, while they are far too modest to say so themselves, the Bill's Final Stage would not be happening were it not for the sheer persistence and dedication of my officials — Julie Stephenson and Liz Marsh were two of the main ones — who were very ably led by Eilís McDaniel. Also key to the legislation over a number of years was Frances Nicholson, who is due to retire from the Department after a lifetime of dedication and service. Frances extended her retirement date to see this legislation through and to work on the sealing of records as well. I thank the entire team for the support that it has given to me, the Committee and the children who will benefit from the Bill. Some 16 years after the process started, I am delighted to say that I commend the Bill to the House.”
“We plan to consult widely on any regulations and guidance, continuing the constructive engagement that we had with stakeholders throughout the process of bringing the Bill to its Final Stage. <BR /> <BR />On that note, I thank everyone who had a part in getting the Bill to this stage. My thanks to the Committee is already on record, and I repeat my thanks to the Chair, members and staff for their work on the Committee report. I also wish to recognise the input of the Office of the Legislative Counsel (OLC) in the preparation of the legislation. Its support and advice throughout have been invaluable and greatly appreciated by my Department.”
“<BR /> <BR />I firmly believe — I hope that you will agree — that, as a result of the scrutiny that the Bill has received during its passage in the Assembly, we now have an improved and more robust overarching legislative framework within which we can start to make the changes needed to improve the lives of children and young people in care and in adoption. <BR /> <BR />While reaching Final Stage is a significant milestone that we deservedly celebrate today, I do not have to remind Members that it is not the end of the matter. There are numerous sets of regulations to be made, supported by detailed guidance, in order to give operational effect to many aspects of the Bill. All those are just as vital as the primary legislation itself, and planning is already under way to ensure a smooth and effective implementation process.”
“The House will also be fully sighted on how the Bill's implementation is progressing, again, by way of reports from the Department that it will continue to receive until all the provisions in Parts 1 and 2 of the Bill are commenced and fully reported on. <BR /> <BR />I made a number of commitments during the Bill's passage that are not explicitly linked to its provisions. They include a commitment to explore whether there is scope under the 1993 Hague convention and/or domestic legislation to establish a special arrangement between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, with the aim of streamlining or harmonising current practice and/or procedure. That relates to the adoption of children between the two jurisdictions and will, of course, require the full cooperation of the Irish Government.”
“Further amendments were made following Committee scrutiny, including strengthening the duties of trusts in relation to looked-after children. When the Bill is passed, trusts will have to promote, support and facilitate their learning and development and their achievement. We have put it beyond doubt that advocacy services provided to looked-after children must be independent. The House will be given the opportunity to engage in debate on a greater number of statutory rules developed by the Department and can be confident that it will receive triennial reports on the operation of the Children Order.”
“Amendments have been made to the Bill in recognition of that, allowing the Department to make new regulations concerning the disclosure of information and enabling the birth relatives of adopted persons to benefit from a wider range of intermediary services in order to obtain information and make contact if both parties agree. I take this moment to thank the victims and survivors of mother-and-baby institutions for their engagement on that sensitive and important aspect of the Bill.”
“<BR /> <BR />Access to information was one of the key themes that emerged from the work of the truth recovery design panel, which was appointed to work with victims and survivors of mother-and-baby institutions, Magdalene laundries and workhouses in Northern Ireland.”
“We have further broadened the definition of harm in the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995, more explicitly linking it to the Domestic Abuse and Civil Proceedings Act (Northern Ireland) 2021, thus potentially offering greater protections to children and young people who are living with domestic abuse. <BR /> <BR />Following comments from the Committee and stakeholders, we have created an automatic right for those who are involved in special guardianship applications or arrangements to receive an assessment of need and support where a trust has determined, by way of its assessment, that support is required.”
“The amendments came about following Health Committee scrutiny, and I thank the Committee members and the stakeholders who responded to the call for evidence. The time frame for scrutiny of the Bill was greatly compressed, and the efficient and diligent work of the Committee, as evidenced in its comprehensive final report, was pivotal in getting the Bill to this stage, and I thank the Committee members for their contributions. <BR /> <BR />I will very briefly remind Members of the amendments that were made to the Bill, which, in my view, most definitely strengthen it and should lead to improved outcomes for children and families in Northern Ireland as a result.”
“<BR /> <BR />Of particular significance, the Bill will introduce a special guardianship order, which will offer a new option for permanence for children and young people where adoption is not possible or considered unsuitable. The order will enable them to be brought up in a secure and stable home until they are 18. Unlike adoption, when a special guardianship order is in place, the legal ties between a child and their family will not be severed. Importantly, we have applied the learning from England and Wales and have created additional safeguards and strengthened support arrangements. <BR /> <BR />Members will be aware that a number of amendments have been made to the Bill since its introduction.”
“Individuals who disagree with a decision made about whether they should be approved or continue to be approved to foster will be able to ask for an independent review of the decision. That is similar to the independent review mechanism that is being introduced for adoption decisions. <BR /> <BR />The Bill will enhance the support that is provided to care leavers as they move into independent living or further and higher education. It will place the Going the Extra Mile (GEM) scheme on a statutory basis and will extend support to care leavers in education or training to the age of 25. Trusts will be required to publish information on the services that they offer for care leavers to ensure that they and those who are acting on their behalf are fully aware of what is available to them in service items.”
“That includes promoting high aspirations for them, delivering safety and stability for them and preparing them for adult and independent living; ensuring that they receive the same opportunities and life chances that any good parent would seek for their own child. Under the Bill, looked-after children will be supported to raise issues or make complaints about the services that they receive and have their views responded to appropriately. Statutory independent advocacy services will be available to support each child through that process. <BR /> <BR />While fostering panels currently exist, the Bill will enable my Department to make regulations setting out the functions of fostering panels and how they should operate.”
“Disabled children and their parents will be able to benefit from a residential short break without the child having to become looked-after. We will enhance current care planning arrangements for looked-after children by placing care planning on a statutory basis. Trusts will not only be required to prepare a care plan for the child within a timescale set by the court but regulations will specify what the plan must contain and duties to keep the plan under regular review will apply. <BR /> <BR />The Bill will introduce a set of corporate parenting principles, which will capture in one place very clear expectations of trusts when looking after children in care.”
“I am confident that the Bill will build greater confidence in the adoption system as a whole, through better and more streamlined processes, the offer of additional support and access to an independent review mechanism in order to facilitate the review of decisions relating to suitability to adoption. It is my belief that, by improving confidence in our adoption systems, we will encourage more people to come forward as potential adoptive parents. That can only be good for the children in Northern Ireland for whom adoption is considered the best way forward. <BR /> <BR />The Bill will improve outcomes for children and families in need, children in care and children leaving care. The Bill will give social workers more flexibility to provide financial support to children and families in need.”
“The Bill will strengthen safeguards for children being brought into or out of Northern Ireland through an inter-country adoption by way of additional restrictions and tougher penalties. The Bill enables my Department to establish a designated list of countries outside the United Kingdom, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man that have sufficiently robust adoption procedures and safeguards in place to enable adoptions in that country to be legally recognised in Northern Ireland. Having a designated list will act as a further safeguard for children being brought into this country from overseas.”
“<BR /> <BR />All adopted people should have the right to find out about their family history and background when the time is right for them. The adoption contact register enables adopted adults and their natural parents and relatives to register their willingness for contact. Under the Bill, it will be possible for adopted adults to indicate who they want to and do not want to have contact with and for relatives to indicate whether they want to have contact with the adopted person. <BR /> <BR />The Bill will introduce a new framework allowing for adoption agencies to provide intermediary services that may lead to sharing of information and facilitating contact. The intermediary agency will have an important role to play in providing specialist support and advice to all parties throughout the process.”
“It will also mean that prospective adopters will share parental responsibility when a child is placed with them, and that is an important departure from current arrangements. It is intended to be fair to parents, minimise the risk of a contested court hearing and, crucially, provide greater certainty for children and prospective adopters. <BR /> <BR />The Bill will provide a new framework for contact, requiring courts to consider arrangements for contact and enabling courts to make orders specifying the arrangements for contact. In keeping with the centrality of the child aims of the Bill, children will be empowered to make or influence decisions about contact, and that includes being able to apply to the court to seek, vary or revoke previously agreed contact/no contact arrangements.”
“Birth families and adoptive families will be able to request an assessment of need for adoption support at any time, either before or after an adoption order has been made, and, in keeping with the will of the House, trusts will also be under a duty to provide adoption support services, which will have been assessed as needed, to certain specified categories of persons. <BR /> <BR />Placement orders will replace freeing orders, which have been widely criticised, partly because, once made, parental responsibility for the child transfers completely from the child's parents to the adoption agency. What will that mean in practical terms? It means that parents will share parental responsibility for their child with the adoption agency until the final adoption order is made.”
“Children and young people will be given a voice, and their thoughts and feelings will be given greater weight. They will be empowered to be more involved in the decisions that affect them. The Bill will reduce uncertainty and delay in the adoption process by requiring courts and adoption agencies to adhere to the "no delay" principle and will require courts to draw up a timetable for proceedings. As a result, we should expect to see unnecessary delay removed and the time frame for adoption potentially reduced. <BR /> <BR />The Bill will introduce a framework for adoption support, and that includes financial support and access to counselling, advice and information.”
“It will mean that adoptive families can enjoy additional support, strengthen and widen support for families in need, enable some children to leave care sooner and ensure that greater support is in place for care leavers and for longer. <BR /> <BR />At recent stages of the Bill, we have focused on amendments, as is the nature of the legislative process. When dealing with those technical matters, however, it can be all too easy to lose sight of the broader benefits of the Bill. With your indulgence, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will take this opportunity to briefly highlight some of the major changes that will be brought about by the Bill, to remind us all of what the Bill is really about. <BR /> <BR />The Bill will place the welfare of the child at the heart of adoption decision-making, and that is by way of measures such as the welfare checklist.”
“By way of the Bill, children in Northern Ireland, who are some of the most vulnerable children in the UK, can now enjoy the same rights as those who live in the other parts. <BR /> <BR />I agree with the comments made by the Chair of the Health Committee during Further Consideration Stage. This is among the most important pieces of legislation that will be passed by the House in this mandate. Make no mistake: the changes that will be made by the Bill will change lives, including the lives of adopted children and their families who provide them with loving homes, children on the edge of care and children in care.”
“I take great pleasure from moving the Final Stage of the Adoption and Children Bill. Born out of the Adopting the Future draft strategy in 2006, the Bill has been long-awaited by all those who are involved in the adoption process and children's social care. Indeed, the fact that Michael McGimpsey was the first Minister to try to secure these changes is indicative of just how long the wait has been. On behalf of the adoption agencies, the fostering service providers, the health and social care trusts, the voluntary organisations and the young people and their families that have contributed their expertise and experience throughout the development process, I am proud to have been able to bring forward the Bill during my tenure as Health Minister.”
“I am confident that the Bill will play a crucial part in securing that truth, along with the accountability and justice that victims, survivors and their relatives have campaigned for for so many years.”
“On 21 January 2022, Ministers were advised of the amendments that I proposed to make to that Bill and provided with an explanation of what each amendment intended to achieve. Members should also be aware that amendments to that Bill tabled by Ms Dillon are reflected in the text of this Bill. The Health Committee was given sight of the amendments as part of the process and at Consideration Stage of the Adoption and Children Bill. I advised Members that the amendments had been ruled out of scope and sought their support to find another way forward. On that basis, it is right and proper that I give my endorsement to the private Member's Bill. <BR /> <BR />I will close by remarks by reflecting on the voices of victims and survivors, one of whom told the truth recovery design panel:”
“I am, therefore, immensely grateful to my colleague Alan Chambers for taking forward this urgent legislation as a private Member and for the cross-party support that the Bill and he have received. Introducing the Bill in the current mandate will give certainty and reassurance to victims and survivors, who deserve the swiftest possible actions on the issue. <BR /> <BR />Members should be aware that the recommendation of the truth recovery design panel that the Bill would address has already been endorsed by the Executive. Furthermore, on 22 November 2021, I advised the First Minister and deputy First Minister of my intention to address the recommendation by way of the Adoption and Children Bill.”
“Members will recall that, originally, the provisions of the Bill were contained in amendments that I tabled for Consideration Stage of the Adoption and Children Bill. Unfortunately, those amendments were deemed inadmissible on the grounds that they were outside the scope of that Bill. My Department considered alternative options for addressing the urgency of the truth recovery design panel's recommendation on the preservation of records. One option was that I introduced the legislation as Minister of Health. However, that was not possible due to the absence of a functioning Executive, because Executive approval is required to draft a Bill. Executive approval for the introduction of a Bill and for accelerated passage would have been required.”
“Their preservation is urgent because, theoretically at least, with every day that passes, the risk increases of an important record being destroyed or continuing to be held in less-than-satisfactory environmental conditions.”
“From reading and hearing their testimonies, we know that the impact of the trauma of their experiences has been a constant throughout their lives and, indeed, the lives of their families. It is, therefore, essential that all possible efforts are made to ensure the preservation of records that contain important information about their own or their family member's birth and early years. <BR /> <BR />The records that are protected by the Bill would provide a significant source of information and evidence for the statutory public inquiry and independent panel that were recommended by the truth recovery design panel. They would also be critical to the establishment of a permanent, comprehensive and independent repository of historical institutional and adoption records and other records that relate to children in state care.”
“It is with a sense of relief that I express my strong support for the Bill. Its successful passage will serve to honour the Executive's agreement to implement the recommendations of the truth recovery design panel's report on mother-and-baby institutions, Magdalene laundries and workhouses in Northern Ireland. That includes the recommendation to which the Bill specifically relates. <BR /> <BR />I will not reiterate the purpose and content of the Bill, which has been set out by my colleague Alan Chambers, because, at the heart of the Bill, are the rights and interests of victims and survivors of a number of historical institutions, many of whom have campaigned tirelessly for years in pursuit of truth, justice and accountability about the operation of those institutions.”
“The Member will be aware that the recommendations made by the truth recovery design panel go far beyond just a public inquiry. It is about individuals coming forward to seek their own documentation. It is "an inquiry or investigation", not specifically a public inquiry.”
“On that point, my reading is that that is what is meant by clause 3(3)(i), but I am sure that the Member could table amendments to strengthen that. <BR /> <BR />On another point that the Member made, which was in relation to the condition in clause 2(4), the Bill says:”
“<BR /> <BR />The background of the Bill is well known, as is my attempt to include its provisions in the Adoption and Children Bill by way of amendments at Consideration Stage, so I will not rehearse the details in this debate. Prior to that Consideration Stage, my officials briefed Health Committee members on the nature and purpose of the provisions now contained in this Bill and the reason for the urgency of their enactment. An explanation of the provisions and their purpose was also provided to Executive colleagues in a letter at that time. I support the accelerated passage of this Bill.”
“I support the motion that the Bill proceed by accelerated passage because I believe that accelerated passage will support the fulfilment of the Executive's agreement to implement the recommendation of the truth recovery design panel on mother-and-baby institutions, Magdalene laundries and workhouses in Northern Ireland that immediate action be taken to create a statutory requirement on all relevant record holders to preserve and not destroy any information relating to those institutions. My colleague Mr Alan Chambers has set out in detail the reasons for seeking accelerated passage and the consequences of it not being granted, and I fully endorse his remarks.”
“<BR /> <BR />I hope that I have answered as many of the Members' queries and questions as was possible. I thank Members for their contributions today and throughout the entirety of the pandemic. I also thank the Health Committee for its invaluable scrutiny of the regulations throughout the process. Once again, I reiterate that, although the legal restrictions have come to an end, the pandemic certainly has not. I implore us all to follow the remaining guidance so that we can protect one another, protect our health service and support society's return to normality. I commend the regulations to the Assembly.”
“The Infrastructure, Education and Justice Ministers, and others, supported those steps. They were all aware of my intention, and they all supported it. They were also aware of the fallout for their respective arm's-length bodies and Departments. <BR /> <BR />Mr Chambers acknowledged the contribution of our healthcare workers and what has been done and brought about. Accusations were made about me slipping something in and not wanting a full debate. I took this opportunity to flag up the fact that the debate was coming. The Chair and members of the Health Committee are aware that that will be brought forward. It has been tabled through the Business Office, and I am seeking for it to be brought to the Business Committee for scheduling. I will be here to have that debate.”
“In an intervention, Ms Bradshaw talked about her ability to challenge and ask questions about the regulations. All members of the Health Committee have done that on all occasions on which my officials or I have been in front of them. As I have often said, the regulations have always been debated in the House in a way that I have not liked, but I pointed out recently that it has been left solely to me to bring them forward, rather than their being brought forward by the Executive as a collective. Ms Bradshaw made a point about communication on how the change was brought about. As I said in my opening comments, I communicated with all my ministerial colleagues, who said that they supported the step that was being taken and the date on which it was being taken.”
“I have been supported in the past in statements made not just by ministerial colleagues and Health Committee members but, on a number of occasions, by the party leader. I thank the Member for his points about utilisation and the fact that, as we move from regulation to guidance, those baseline measures are in place. I encourage people to continue to follow them.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. I will not expand on that, because I do not think that Members want to be here for as long as I could take. I note, however, that not all Members of a single party hold that position.”
“It is not clear whether further regulations could be brought in the absence of a functioning Executive. As I have said, that is because of the likelihood that any such decision would be controversial and cross-cutting, necessitating an Executive decision. Regarding any coronavirus regulations, I have often mentioned the fact that the decisions were taken by the Executive as a whole. I point out that, at one point, I received a message saying that the Executive collectively agreed the emergency procedures, including DUP Ministers: I thanked the leader of the DUP for his message at that point.”
“The purpose of the Coronavirus Act 2020 (Extension of Powers to Act for the Protection of Public Health) Order (Northern Ireland) is to extend the expiry date of section 48 and the provisions in schedule 18 to the Coronavirus Act. Those are due to expire on 24 March 2022. I have written to the Business Committee asking that a debate be held on the extension, Mr Frew, so you will get the opportunity to have your say at that point. That debate will be on a six-month extension. <BR /> <BR />If an Executive is not formed or in place after the next election, implementation of the regulations will remain the responsibility of those mentioned in the regulations, on the basis that the expiry date of section 48 and schedule 18 will have been extended prior to the Assembly's dissolution.”
“I very much welcome today's debate on the regulations to revoke the health protection restrictions regulations and the face covering regulations. I thank Members for their contributions. <BR /> <BR />I will turn to some of the points that Members made. I thank the Chair and the Deputy Chair for their continuing support, for their encouragement of the vaccine programme and for encouraging people to come forward to get the vaccine. Our vaccine programmes and clinics are still running, so I encourage anyone who can avail themselves of them to come forward and get it. <BR /> <BR />The Chair asked about who can make the extension in the absence of an Executive, and that touches slightly on Mr Frew's point.”