Robin Swann
North Antrim · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for his detailed statement. I know how passionate he is about the subject and how many times he has brought it to the Executive.”
“It has been reported that today will potentially be the warmest day of the year. As we move into the summer and our summer holidays, I want to raise public awareness of wildfires across Northern Ireland, which have been detrimental to farmland and our environment over the past number of years.”
“Wildfires are still having a detrimental impact on our environment and, occasionally, on livestock, but that reduction shows the impact of the Northern Ireland Fire and Rescue Service's proactive approach to educating the general public and engaging with rural communities and schools on its fire safety message, which is to stay alert, not…”
“There has been a lot of talk of sport in this place over the past few days, with everybody concentrating on UEFA. One sport that is going on across Northern Ireland at the minute is cross-community and goes across all age groups without fear, favour or distinction: pigeon racing.”
“I want to put on record that, since this place passed the amendment that recognised pigeon racing as a sport under the 2016 Act, over the past five years, pigeon racing clubs across Northern Ireland have been able to obtain £113,000 of rates rebates through the sports and recreation rate relief, allowing many of those clubs to continue ra…”
“There was much coverage on social media over the weekend of an incident in Staines in England, in which a police car rammed a young calf to bring it under control. It has restarted the conversation about animal cruelty. <BR /> <BR />I am dealing with a specific case in my constituency.”
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“I acknowledge the role that the Member has played in being a voice for carers. That will give her an extra minute.”
“I hope that I have answered as many of the Members' questions and queries as possible. In closing the debate, I remind Members that the choices that we make now will be crucial in ensuring that the virus does not begin to spread again. COVID-19 restrictions are being eased. We can meet more people and go to more places. We can cautiously start to return to a more normal way of life. By making safer choices, following public health advice and complying with the regulations, we can all do our part to help lower the spread of COVID-19. I commend the regulations to the Assembly.”
“I am glad that Mr McNulty was able to bring about balance between access to the gym and cream doughnuts. An equality is demonstrated in the easements that have been made. <BR /> <BR />Mr McGrath brought past regulations and how they can be managed into the debate. That relates to the Chair's comments about how fixed penalties could be rescinded if they have not made it to court yet. That issue could be pursued through the PSNI. <BR /> <BR />Mr Carroll mentioned industrial action. That was an oversight. It was not deliberate in any shape or form. When it came forward, it would have been the first industrial action that had taken place in Northern Ireland since COVID came about. I asked for the picket and the industrial action to be included as a reason for the exemptions under the regulations so that that could take place unrestricted.”
“I am thankful for the way in which she engaged with the Health Department and Executive. At this point, I thank Mrs Cameron for her work as Deputy Chairperson of the Health Committee. She was always there to challenge, but also to support when it was necessary. I thank her for that and for the work that she has done outside the Committee on health issues, in a number of all-party groups and on the private Member's Bill that she is bringing forward. She may have left that post, but I know that her interest will still be there. <BR /> <BR />Cara Hunter and Justin McNulty mentioned sport. The Executive have always taken a balanced approach to societal, health and economic needs. That is why those amendments to regulations were brought forward.”
“<BR /> <BR />I will move on to comments that were made by the Committee Chair when he spoke as Sinn Féin's health spokesperson. The community support that we saw in Kilkeel was phenomenal. Over 2,000 people came forward for testing. I await the outworkings of what was the first community-targeted testing that we have deployed here in Northern Ireland, and will share that with the Committee. I want to thank the people of Kilkeel, and also the elected representatives in the area, for their support in delivering that. <BR /> <BR />With regard to Pam Cameron's comments, the determination and, I believe, pragmatic approach of Diane Dodds as the former Economy Minister are to be commended. She supported the work of her Department thoroughly during her time in the Executive.”
“I do not have the exact legal read-out, like the Member. We have asked for that with regard to where those regulations will stand, and who will, ultimately, have authority. If there is no Health Minister or Executive in place to make those decisions, we will look to legal recourse as regards what the competent body is that can actually make those changes. We are in uncharted waters in that regard. <BR /> <BR />It will also have implications for international travel, which was raised by Pam Cameron, and which countries will be on Northern Ireland's red list or, even, green list if there is no Executive to agree recommendations that come forward from me, as Health Minister, and my Department. It will be a challenging and trying time as we see what happens over the next few days.”
“That falls into the area of Mr Carroll's question about whether, if there were no Executive on Thursday to agree those further relaxations, they would not be made at that point. The Executive will still be in place at that point, and the regulations, as far as I am aware, will stand as they are, even if unamended.”
“Again, I thank the Chair for his support for our health service workers throughout the pandemic, and for his strong words of support and encouragement, like those of other Members, on the vaccine programme. With the delta variant becoming prominent elsewhere, we have seen that it is actually the double dose of the vaccine that provides double protection: it provides protection for those who have been vaccinated, and also for their families, friends and work colleagues. <BR /> <BR />The Chair and Mr McNulty raised the issue of live music. Proposals came to the Executive last Thursday. They were delayed until this Thursday, so that we could see better forecasting on where the delta variant may take us in Northern Ireland before further relaxations are agreed.”
“I welcome the debate that we have had on the three sets of amendment regulations today: SR 2021/130, SR 2021/131 and SR 2021/141. I thank Members for their contributions and words of support. <BR /> <BR />I will address some of the points that Members made during the debate. The Chair and a number of other Members asked about fixed penalty notices and who has the power to rescind them. Throughout the pandemic, police and enforcement officers have sought to engage, explain and encourage people to comply with the restrictions rather than move straight to enforcement action. The PSNI can rescind fixed penalty notices if they have not been paid or registered with the court as a fine. I hope that that will answer a number of questions that Members asked.”
“<BR /> <BR />I hope that Members will agree with me that these three sets of amended regulations bring a welcome set of relaxations for our families and for businesses and recognise that, as we approach the summer period, we can all have the opportunity to enjoy the benefits of better weather while remaining cautious about any signs of increased transmission of COVID-19. I commend the regulations to the Assembly.”
“Indeed, the new approach and continued engagement with stakeholders has helped to ensure a reasonable balance of easements as we attempt to return society to a form of normality. The success of that approach can be demonstrated by the considerable number of proposals across various sectors that have contributed to the amendments brought forward today. <BR /> <BR />Our vaccination programme remains a primary line of defence, and I am pleased to report that demand remains very strong. As always, vaccine supply continues to be the limiting factor in the roll-out of the programme.”
“<BR /> <BR />As Health Minister, I have the ultimate responsibility for protecting the health of our most vulnerable people and our vital health services. It is my firm belief that the overall restrictions and requirements and those imposed by these regulations continue to be proportionate to what the regulations seek to achieve, which is a public health response to the COVID-19 infectious disease threat. COVID-19 is dangerous. <BR /> <BR />The COVID-19 cross-departmental working group, led by TEO, continues to meet weekly and to manage the process for bringing forward relaxation proposals to the Executive. I welcome the collaborative work of the various Departments involved in developing those proposals for change in the regulations. My Department continues to provide health advice on the proposals brought to the Executive.”
“It inserts an exemption under regulation 5 to enable venues used for marriages or civil partnership ceremonies, such as hotels, to permit a couple or persons to move within the premises to view the venue facilities as permitted under regulation 9. That was already permitted, but it was omitted in error when indoor hospitality was permitted to reopen. <BR /> <BR />Under regulation 17, "Requirement in relation to social distancing", amendment No 4 provided the definition of a "relevant place", and the requirements were applicable to either "a relevant place" or "a relevant hospitality venue". A drafting error in the regulation, however, had not included "a relevant hospitality venue" to parts of the regulation, and a technical correction was made.”
“The SR also made a number of technical changes that commenced at the time that they were made on 28 May. The changes included the removal of regulation 11(3A) that permitted the Mourneview Park football stadium to be used for the Irish Cup final on 21 May with up to 1,000 spectators in attendance. As that test event has taken place, I will refrain from making any comment on the result. <BR /> <BR />The SR inserts a definition of a "shop" to provide further clarification to businesses. It is the same as the definition previously used in the face coverings regulations. It provides clarification that up to 500 persons per gathering may attend an outdoor sporting event, rather than 500 people in total per outdoor sporting event.”
“<BR /> <BR />I move to the final SR before us today, SR 2021/141, the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2021 (Amendment No. 5) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2021. The SR is the fifth amendment to the regulations, and it was made at 1.30 pm on 28 May. The amendment provided a further relaxation under regulation 11 to enable the full resumption of indoor competitive sport from 31 May on the basis that relevant risk assessments are implemented. I am grateful to my Executive colleagues for ratifying those decisions at our meeting on 27 May.”
“Following discussions between my officials and the Executive Office, the amendment reflects the Committee's view that a face covering should be required in all indoor settings. The regulations retain the principle that a face covering is required in a "relevant place". The definition of a "relevant place" has been expanded from shops, shopping centres and churches to include all indoor spaces to which the public have access. The exemption for businesses and settings that controlled access by ticketing or appointment systems was removed, because it was incompatible with the principle that people should use a face covering in all indoor spaces to which the public have access. Members should note that the existing exemptions and reasonable excuses not to wear face coverings were retained.”
“I am unaware of the photographs that the Member refers to, but I assure him that, in any of the meetings that I was at, we were seated in a socially distanced way in accordance with the regulations. The event was delivered according to coronavirus regulations. If the Member has further pictorial evidence, I am sure that he will share it with not only the House but the media. <BR /> <BR />I reassure Members that these restrictions can, as I have said, be further relaxed as necessary at some point in the future, if the rate of infection remains low and there is no evidence of increased transmission in those settings. <BR /> <BR />I thank members of the Health Committee for their helpful contribution to the finalising of the amendment.”
“<BR /> <BR />As indoor leisure, entertainment, hospitality and non-essential retail settings are again open to the public, a precautionary approach is being taken, requiring the use of face coverings in enclosed public areas of premises to which the public have or are permitted access. I reassure Members that the restriction can be further relaxed as necessary at some point in the future, if the rate of infection remains low and there is no evidence of increased transmission in those settings.”
“There is no distinction between a meeting of public officials or public representatives and other meetings. I know that the Member has tabled a question for written answer on where the regulations sit on that. <BR /> <BR />The second SR that we are debating today is SR 2021/131, the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Wearing of Face Coverings) (Amendment No. 2) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2021. The regulations are the second amendment this year to the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Wearing of Face Coverings) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2020. The regulations were made at 4.00 pm on 21 May and came into operation on 24 May. The regulations gave effect to the measures agreed by the Executive on 13 May.”
“Other relaxations introduced by the SR included permission for indoor gatherings, subject to a risk assessment where numbers exceed 15. Outdoor gatherings were permitted, subject to a limit of 500, with a number of exceptions and a risk assessment where numbers exceed 30. Restrictions on band practice and rehearsals were removed. Indoor sport except for competitive sport may resume, subject to mitigations, and all other outdoor sport may resume. For outdoor sport, like outdoor gatherings, there is a limit of 500 spectators and a risk assessment where numbers exceed 30. Libraries may reopen, subject to mitigations, and those responsible for indoor attractions, indoor sport facilities, indoor swimming pools and tourist accommodation must comply with visitor and attendee information requirements.”
“The existing limit of 10 people from two households in a bubble together indoors remains. Those who are in the bubble may now gather outdoors in private gardens with up to 15 persons from no more than three households, ensuring consistency in that regard. <BR /> <BR />The restriction on overnight stays was removed, which, I am pleased to say, allowed tourist accommodation to reopen for groups of up to six people from two households or for groups of up to 10 people, reflecting the arrangements for indoor visits.”
“4) regulations permitted unlicensed and licensed hospitality premises to reopen indoors subject to certain conditions, including a table limit of six people from up to six households or a maximum of 10 people from one household, not including children aged 12 and under. Those numbers will apply indoors and outdoors, but exceptions are made for events to celebrate weddings and civil partnerships. Social distancing was reduced to 1 metre in relevant hospitality venues. Otherwise, social distancing of 2 metres remains in place. <BR /> <BR />I am pleased that that SR also provided a number of important relaxations for families and friends, which allowed indoor visits between two households up to a maximum of six people, not including children. Where a household has more than six members, an increased limit of 10 people applies.”
“With your permission, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will focus my remarks on the key changes that have been made by those amendment regulations. <BR /> <BR />SR 2021/130, which is the amendment (No. 4) regulations, was made on 20 May. That SR made a number of relaxations to the restrictions regulations that were due to come into effect on 20 May and 24 May. From 20 May, it added an exemption for lawful industrial action to outdoor gatherings that are not subject to an upper number limit. It made provision for the Irish Cup Final at Mourneview Park on Friday 21 May to be used as a logistical and operational learning event, with up to 1,000 spectators in attendance. <BR /> <BR />From 24 May, the amendment (No.”
“I bring three statutory rules to the House today. It has been a while, and I thank junior Minister Lyons and junior Minister Kearney for performing this duty in the past on the Executive's behalf. <BR /> <BR />The first is SR 2021/130, which is the fourth set of amendment regulations to the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2021. The second is SR 2021/131, which is the second set of amendment regulations to the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Wearing of Face Coverings) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2020. The third is SR 2021/141, which is the fifth set of amendment regulations to the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2021.”
“It is a non-party political commitment that is for the good of the people of Northern Ireland, and we need to put this building block in place and start delivering on it.”
“I thank the Member for his comments. That is why we have deliberately set out this framework. It was OK in the past to talk about the unmet financial demand and how much we need multi-year Budgets. The framework sets out not just what the ask is but the number of procedures or treatments that the financial support could give in each of the five years that we are targeting. It is focused. <BR /> <BR />As I have said before in this place, this is about a five-year plan to tackle waiting lists. As I look around the House, I see many Members who could be standing in this place after the next election. Who knows, Jim, where things could go? That was in my thinking when I asked for the support of Members and Executive parties for this five-year plan.”
“We do not have a detailed assessment because it has been dormant for a number of months. We do not yet have an indication of the capacity that is available in the independent sector in the Republic of Ireland because that need will also be utilised elsewhere. That is where we see challenges with using other providers in other jurisdictions. We are not alone in having waiting lists increasing; we see that in all health services across these islands. The pressures that the pandemic placed on our health services meant that services, diagnostics and other procedures had to be ceased while we treated COVID patients. <BR /> <BR />I thank the Member for what he said about the comments from the Member of Parliament for North Antrim. I think that Mr Allister and I are well used to such comments, given some of his statements in the past.”
“In that way, it can be demonstrated that money is being spent where it should be spent. If a Barnett consequential comes from Westminster from Health, it should be supplied to Health.”
“I thank the Member. He knows me well enough to know that I have had those conversations with my party leader in relation to what we have been talking about. <BR /> <BR />On a COVID wealth tax, this place does not have tax-raising powers to that degree. That power has not been devolved from Westminster. I will seek the funding that I need for the health service from our Executive. As Members have indicated, that might have to be developed into an ask from Westminster as it rebuilds its health service. A reciprocal Barnett consequential might come to Northern Ireland as well. If it does, it should be earmarked and ring-fenced for Health so that any such future Barnett consequential will not be sucked into the middle of an Executive. Rather, it should be applied to the health service over the five-year programme that I have set out.”
“<BR /> <BR />In the past 10 years, some horrific decisions were made about workforce planning and the number of beds that have been removed from our health service. We are now paying the price for those decisions and for underinvestment in our health and social care system.”
“<BR /> <BR />When I say that the Executive's focus is on this issue, that is what I am led to believe. When I was last at the Executive, and at the last two meetings, they were all very clear about the work that needed to be done to tackle waiting lists. As the Member knows, I have taken the Executive at their word, produced the framework and put in the necessary financial ask to deliver it. The Member's point about increasing our workforce is addressed in the framework, and he will see that when he reads it in its entirety. He will note the proposed increase in workforce and workforce capacity. That will happen when I have the people to man the beds, supply them and make sure that the patients in them are maintained and looked after. That is the nature of the increase that we have seen.”
“I thank the Member. I will deal with his questions in reverse order. <BR /> <BR />This place fell within two weeks of the 2017 programme. The additional moneys that were needed never materialised because there was a recurrent budget, based on the previous year's budget. I am concerned lest the same trajectory happen with regard to this place falling or not functioning, now that this work has been announced. I can set policy and direction, but, unless there is someone to maintain the finance and work on the finances that we need to deliver this framework and agree that procedure, it becomes a failed opportunity, a loss to the people of Northern Ireland and another blight on them that will force them to wait longer for waiting lists to be tackled and for the services that they need.”
“I thank the Member for her support and her question. I have always considered our health and social care workforce to be one body, one unit and one family. Those additional support measures should be applied equally across all the resources that are needed to get on top of the waiting lists. We intend to do so in a specifically targeted fashion.”
“I will make the case at the next meeting of the Executive, and I will also present this framework to the Executive and explain what the financial ask means. I welcome support from the Member's party colleague the Minister for Infrastructure, who has already indicated publicly that she is willing to sacrifice part of her budget to support the Health budget and work in Health.”
“I thank the Member. I think that he knows me well enough not just to put things like that in writing but to verbalise it. The case has been made in this House.”
“I thank the Member for her comments. As I said in the statement, 26% of our operations are for cancer patients. The majority of the red-flag cases that have been identified will now have been seen, treated or received a date for their treatment. We set up a regional programme board to look at those, and one of the things that we saw when those red-flag patients were brought forward was that they were offered surgery anywhere in Northern Ireland where we had theatre capacity. We had other trusts providing theatre capacity for urgent and red-flag procedures on a regional basis. I can get the Member the exact breakdown of where they are now, but the majority of those cases will now have been seen, treated or given a date for treatment.”
“It is an expansion of what we already know works and of what we have seen work in our system already, where we had consultants and clinics for whom this was normal practice and for whom it was not normal practice. It is about making this a standardised approach across the entirety of our service for people when they are due a procedure or an operation or when they have to come in for pre-operation treatment. As you said, it is about that wider piece of communication with all people who are seeking support and additional treatments from the health service.”
“I thank the Member for her questions on those two subjects, IVF and pain clinics. Today's announcement is on elective care and how we start to address that, but one of the targets that we have set, or one of the initiatives that has been developed, is about that communication with patients so that they make sure and are aware of when their appointments are going to be and when they can be seen. In my opinion, the letter in the post is no longer enough because so many other people are using so many other means of communication. That is why we are specifically looking at whether there should be a text message service or a telephone call to remind people that they have an appointment coming up. <BR /> <BR />Coming out of COVID, we saw that people were sent a reminder to come in for their appointment as their COVID vaccine was due.”
“This situation is at the same level as COVID, so we should be supporting our staff in the same way. We have engaged with our trade union side, which has been discussing with us over the past number of months how it wants to be part of the solution. For us to get there in five years and to remain on top of our waiting lists, I need to be working with our trade union side. I am working with our trade union side, because it is part of our solution and part of our healthcare family. That is why I have regular engagement with it.”
“I thank the Member for her point. She will be aware that one of the things to come out of New Decade, New Approach was an additional 300 training places for nurses over three years. Thankfully, we have the money to deliver those. We have 1,400 nursing vacancies, so we will have to wait for the training cohort to come out the other end fully trained while retaining the staff that we have to close that gap. Until we close that gap, delivering on that will remain a challenge. <BR /> <BR />That is why I made the point that the immediate action needs to be on how we reimburse our current in-house staff so that we can meet the demands and gaps in the workforce. We saw how that worked during COVID, when members of staff were given additional supports to do extra duties and take on extra responsibilities.”
“This is a health crisis: it affects every one of our constituents, whether they vote, whether they are eligible to vote and regardless of their age, creed, colour, religion or sexual orientation. This is something that we have to come together on to finally resolve and get on top of, irrespective of party politics.”
“I thank the Member for his point. It is a concern, because when we saw this place not functioning for a number of years, all budgets were flatlined, no Ministers were making decisions and there was no strategy, drive or change in direction from what had gone before. We got what had gone before, which was increasing numbers on our waiting lists. This is current. I have heard every political party and a majority of politicians from across this place saying that health is a priority. I have letters from nearly every Member about a constituent of theirs who has been waiting for too long, and they are asking what I can do or how I can help. This is how they help. This is how Members address something that is more than a political crisis in Northern Ireland.”
“That should be the incentive for our trusts to try to outperform the in-house providers or the independent sector. <BR /> <BR />We should be under no illusion that I will need to utilise the independent sector in this five-year targeted plan in order to get back on top of our waiting lists while we retain, train and enhance the skill sets in our health service. That is why the framework, as the Member will see when he gets a chance to look at it, also sets out a five-year target plan for investment in staff, which, as I said, builds up after the fifth year to £121·5 million. That is the investment in our staff that we see as being necessary, and it will allow the health service to stay on top of waiting lists.”
“I thank the Member. I am particularly conscious of what is called in-house provision. To put it into perspective, one of the things to come out of this piece of work was that we have in-house provision where a private provider supplies cataract surgery in a certain location. It does 12 a day, and our National Health Service providers are doing seven a day using the same location and doing the same procedures and operations. There has to be a challenge function around how we can increase the capacity of our in-house provision, and we are looking at how we can develop a tariff-based model for our in-house providers in the National Health Service so that they will be adequately reimbursed if they can provide and deliver more procedures.”
“I thank the Member for her points. When I made the statement, I highlighted three topics from each of the immediate-, medium- and long-term plans. When she gets a chance to look at the framework, she will see that there is also a target for using our primary care providers. That is an initiative that has been used in the past and that has worked for us, and we intend to develop it. To put things into perspective, GP services were able to provide vasectomies for over 1,000 men in Northern Ireland over the past period of time. That was the equivalent of 130 theatre slots that we could utilise for other urgent and emergency procedures. The utilisation of both GP practices and community pharmacy is looked at in the recovery plan framework.”
“Once we train those people and put them in place, we will need to retain them. After those five years, when we have put the investment in to get our waiting lists down to an acceptable level, we will need that workforce to maintain that level.”
“Also in the framework is a breakdown of the funding that is necessary to build our in-house capacity. That is about the workforce and filling the gaps in our nursing, GP and consultant workforces. In the last workforce survey report that I saw, we had 1,400 nursing vacancies across Northern Ireland. That is not because we are not recruiting nurses; it is because they are not there. We have to wait for that skills gap to be filled and for the people who are training to come out the other side. <BR /> <BR />A five-year programme is also set out in the framework that shows what we need to spend to fill the delivery capacity gap by increasing our workforce. That is estimated to be in the region of £121·5 million over those five years and will allow for both training and recruitment. That £121·5 million will be recurrent funding.”
“I do not have a detailed breakdown in front of me of how much will go into the independent sector. However, it is about getting people seen as quickly as possible.”
“I thank the Member for her question, which, as she said, is from the personal standpoint of having a relative on a waiting list. Unfortunately, we have many hundreds of thousands of people in Northern Ireland in the same position. That is why this work is critical and why the funding is necessary. <BR /> <BR />When the Member gets the opportunity to see the framework as it is set out, she will see that, on page 48, we have broken down, over the five years, where that money will be spent in tackling waiting lists and the number of assessments and treatments.”
“I thank the Member for his question. As I have said previously in the House, I need every square foot of the health real estate. We will look at the entirety of that service when we look at where we locate some of the regional delivery of procedures. However, the Member's point is well made.”