Robin Swann
North Antrim · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Minister for his detailed statement. I know how passionate he is about the subject and how many times he has brought it to the Executive.”
“It has been reported that today will potentially be the warmest day of the year. As we move into the summer and our summer holidays, I want to raise public awareness of wildfires across Northern Ireland, which have been detrimental to farmland and our environment over the past number of years.”
“Wildfires are still having a detrimental impact on our environment and, occasionally, on livestock, but that reduction shows the impact of the Northern Ireland Fire and Rescue Service's proactive approach to educating the general public and engaging with rural communities and schools on its fire safety message, which is to stay alert, not…”
“There has been a lot of talk of sport in this place over the past few days, with everybody concentrating on UEFA. One sport that is going on across Northern Ireland at the minute is cross-community and goes across all age groups without fear, favour or distinction: pigeon racing.”
“I want to put on record that, since this place passed the amendment that recognised pigeon racing as a sport under the 2016 Act, over the past five years, pigeon racing clubs across Northern Ireland have been able to obtain £113,000 of rates rebates through the sports and recreation rate relief, allowing many of those clubs to continue ra…”
“There was much coverage on social media over the weekend of an incident in Staines in England, in which a police car rammed a young calf to bring it under control. It has restarted the conversation about animal cruelty. <BR /> <BR />I am dealing with a specific case in my constituency.”
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“Most certainly. It irked me yesterday that there was some sort of accusation that the Health Committee may have failed in its duty. I assure you, Mr Speaker, that the Health Committee — its members, Chair and Deputy Chair — do not shirk their responsibility to challenge me or my Department or to support the health service or challenge it when challenge is due. That is the Committee's role. In this instance, it had the opportunity to do that. <BR /> <BR />Points were also raised with regard to timeliness. As I said, I would have liked us to be able to do it prior to the instigation of the regulations. Finishing the debate today and taking the vote today, it is not a match, as we have seen in Scotland or Wales, because our processes simply do not allow that.”
“They had two different sittings in which they had the opportunity to question not just my officials but TEO officials on the regulations.”
“I agree with the Member, and I will get on to that point. <BR /> <BR />There were, I suppose, accusations or insinuations that there had not been the appropriate time to scrutinise the regulations. I have spoken in this place many times about the timing and the process, and I think that Mr Weir made the point about the challenges of processes and systems in this place. I made it clear when I tabled a paper with the Executive on the matter that one of my recommendations was that we get through the process as quickly as possible. It did not happen; I would have liked to have been here last week for this. <BR /> <BR />There was also commentary yesterday suggesting that these regulations have not received proper scrutiny. I do not often stick up for them, but that does a disservice to the Health Committee and its members.”
“<BR /> <BR />The equality screening, disability duties and human rights assessment template has been completed and published and is available. <BR /> <BR />If any Members want any further clarification on those documents, they are there. If there is a further need for questions or if further questions arise, there is still an opportunity for engagement. I am here. I have been here more often than a lot of other Ministers to bring forward COVID-19 regulations and requirements —”
“It has been completed and published and is available. <BR /> <BR />There were some queries about what data will be captured. COVID certification downloads on the mobile app are different from the travel app, because the domestic app on someone's phone does not transmit any information to the receiver. The receiver and the person checking it will simply see a green mark that it is a valid document. There is no separation or differential about why that certification was issued. I think that that was one of Mr Frew's queries. He asked whether someone would be able to tell how a person got the certificate when he or she presented the app and whether it was through having a medical exemption or another criterion. The green tick will appear no matter what.”
“My officials and colleagues from the Department of Justice have had multiple meetings with the PSNI in the lead-up to and implementation of COVID-status certification. It must be stated that their overwhelming priority is for people to comply with the regulations as their purpose is to help contain the spread of COVID-19 across Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />A number of Members across the House raised those two main points. Therefore, it was clear that we should start with them. <BR /> <BR />There were a number of questions about what is there, what is not there and what could be there. The human rights impact assessment has been completed and published and is available to Members. The privacy notice on COVID certificates, what they mean and what implications they will have is also there.”
“The PSNI indicated that it will carry out checks on the processes in place in relevant venues and will continue to use the four Es in that approach to engage, encourage, explain and then enforce. The Executive's COVID task force and my officials will continue to review the process and engage with enforcement stakeholders to support engagement as much as possible. <BR /> <BR />Engagement also continues with relevant hospitality and events stakeholders to ensure that there is a clear understanding of the requirements of the scheme. That will support the enforcement activity. Following engagement with the PSNI, a number of amendments were made to the specific wording of the regulations.”
“While COVID certification contributes to each of those three mechanisms, it does not, on its own, provide a complete solution, but must be used in conjunction with other non-pharmaceutical interventions, with effective implementation through high adherence to guidance or enforcement to regulation. That is the point. A number of Members said that there is no scientific evidence for COVID certification and no proof. There are papers there, SAGE has stated it, and it has been stipulated elsewhere. <BR /> <BR />A number of Members also raised the general point about enforcement. On the enforcement of the regulations and, in particular, the provision of COVID-status certification, enforcement by the PSNI will be supported by councils' environmental health officers, as they both carry the necessary powers to issue fixed penalty notices.”
“On the scientific evidence, I repeat what I said yesterday. In April 2021, SAGE noted that there are three main ways in which baseline measures can reduce the transmission of COVID-19. Those are:”
“I will move on to some of the general points that were raised by a number of Members yesterday. Before I do, I want to put on record my thanks to the officials who have been involved throughout the entire process and to the Committee for carrying out its scrutiny work.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. In my opening statement yesterday, I commented that it was my fervent hope that, given the seriousness of the situation, the House could debate the measure rationally and respectfully and that there would be no grandstanding or petty point-scoring, whether party political or personal. I said that it was my hope, but whether it was what I expected or what could have happened was a different matter. I thank the Members who contributed to the debate, because it was held, as it should have been, in the tone and tenor that the House has come to expect. It went some way towards de-escalating some of the tensions and rhetoric that surround the subject outside the House and that do not help the process or any of the work that needs to be done.”
“Mr Speaker, can we seek a suspension? In all honesty, I would prefer to complete the business tonight. I think that the Members want to complete the business tonight, and I think that people who are watching and listening to know the decision that will be made in the House want to know it tonight. I am unsure of the procedures or the Standing Orders, but, if the Business Committee could meet in the next number of minutes to schedule another half hour of the sitting, I will give you a commitment that I will be finished by 9.30 pm.”
“On that specific point about other Ministers saying that there was no evidence, or that they had not had sight of it, on 29 November, I wrote to all my Executive colleagues to invite them to individual briefings, if they so wanted, with my departmental officials and Executive Office officials who were involved in the drafting of the policy, subsequent regulations and the evidence that had been presented. It had been brought forward through the Executive paper. Yes, some Members and Ministers have said that they have not seen the evidence. I can assure you, however, that Ministers were invited to come and see it, question it, discuss it and talk about it. I would like to thank both Ministers who took up that invitation.”
“Clarification was provided. A reinforcement of the legislation and what it meant was made on Friday. There was sectoral engagement on Friday morning between officials, the hospitality industry and the PSNI about what they sought in that reinforcement so that we could provide clarity to those who have to implement and enforce the regulations. There was a request for sectoral engagement. That was led by the Executive Office and the Executive's COVID task force. There was an ask for additional clarity. <BR /> <BR />If there is anything further, I will provide the Member with an answer in writing. I know that she asked a specific question when I made my contribution. I apologise for not getting back to her at that point.”
“This regulation is part of the entirety of the coronavirus regulations, which have a sunset clause for 23 March. The whole lot falls at that point, unless, along with the Executive, the House gives the go-ahead for continuation.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. The Member has asked the question directly, and he has taken interventions. This regulation comes under the coronavirus regulations that fall on 23 March next year, should there be no other interaction. To address the concerns that were raised specifically by the FSB, that is the sunset clause for the entirety of the regulations. However, our regulations are reviewed by the Executive every four weeks as part of our standing process to make sure that they are still proportionate and necessary. Any Member of the Executive, either current or previous, will justify that. That is the time when any Minister has the opportunity to say, "Can we question that one? Can we look at that one?". I give the Member that.”
“I thank the Member for giving way, because this issue has been raised a number of times. The Member knows me well enough from serving with me in the Executive. When the paper went forward, one of my requests to my Executive colleagues was that the matter should be debated and brought to the House as expediently as it could be. There is another Minister in the House who could assent to that. That is what we have done, and that is what I had hoped to do. Members who sit on the Business Committee will have seen the draft Order Papers and will know that I had hoped that the regulation would be debated last Monday. It did not happen, but that afforded two weeks for the Health Committee and the Examiner of Statutory Rules to scrutinise the regulation. I draw that to the Member's attention.”
“Apologies, Mr Deputy Speaker. The Member may not be aware of all those points and of what has happened. I wanted to make that clear to the House.”
“That approach was taken because the entire Executive had come forward to put together support mechanisms, and that is why I said that I had support. The First Minister and the deputy First Minister have made appeals to Westminster for the funding that will be needed if additional measures are necessary. I have said to the Economy Minister — I will say it again — that I will support him with any ask for a support package that can be brought forward. I know that he has recently returned COVID support money in a monitoring round.”
“That was a response to my ask, working through the Executive's COVID task force, that all the implications of bringing forward the regulation were addressed using a holistic approach by the Executive. The Member who made the intervention indicated that I am pushing responsibility onto someone else. I am not doing that. This has always been the approach that I have taken to regulations. I supported the establishment of the Executive's COVID task force so that the consideration, responses and supports that have been necessary in the past and any implications or knock-on impacts will have a holistic approach across the entirety of the Executive. <BR /> <BR />This time last year — I remember it well — the First Minister came to the House to announce the drastic steps that would be necessary post Christmas Day.”
“I do not want to interrupt Members, but this is about the intervention that the Member took. On 3 December, I received a letter from the First Minister and deputy First Minister about COVID vaccine certification. The letter states:”
“There is also evidence from studies worldwide that, even when people get infected, they are less likely to transmit it to others if they are vaccinated. Requiring a recent negative test also reduces the risk of transmission, and, of course, it will work best in association with all the other public health tools in the toolkit. Therefore, I take the opportunity to again urge everyone to continue to make safer choices and to follow the public health advice. I commend the regulations to the Assembly.”
“<BR /> <BR />I conclude by emphasising again that COVID certification is a public health measure. By introducing it, we follow public health advice. I welcome the previous public commitment from the leaders of all the Executive parties to follow public health advice, and I sincerely hope that that remains the case today. Contrary to what is claimed by some, there is sound scientific evidence to back it up. In short, the higher the proportion of vaccinated people in a setting, the safer it is. People who are vaccinated are less likely to get the virus, and you cannot pass it on if you are not infected. Also, if infection occurs in a setting where most or all of the people are vaccinated, the chance of someone becoming seriously ill and being hospitalised is significantly reduced.”
“That is not an option that I as Health Minister am prepared to contemplate, nor is it a position that I am able to take from the oppositional safety of the Back Benches. <BR /> <BR />There are legitimate arguments on both sides of the debate, but this is about how we properly balance rights with responsibilities. That is always a difficult balance to strike. I say this to the House and to those from one party who are arguing against the entire concept of a certification scheme: how do you tally your outright opposition with the fact that the Executive's autumn and winter contingency plan included certification as an option? Let us not forget that on the first page of that winter plan are the signatures of our First Minister and deputy First Minister.”
“Today's debate would have happened regardless of the new variant. However, its arrival should help to focus and sharpen minds. As always, stepping our way through the difficult times ahead requires personal and public responsibility. <BR /> <BR />Of those who rail against certification today, I ask this simple question: what is your alternative? How would you provide that additional layer of protection for our citizens, businesses and health service? Would you prefer moving to the next step in the Executive's autumn and winter plan, which sees social distancing reintroduced for hospitality or possibly even the shutdown of certain sectors? Is your option to simply do nothing and keep your fingers crossed? We know that that does not work.”
“There has also been significant engagement with the Information Commissioner's Office (ICO), as well as with the sectors impacted, led by the Executive Office's junior Ministers and the Executive's COVID task force. <BR /> <BR />As has been the case throughout the pandemic, the current restrictions will be the subject of regular review by the Executive and will remain in place only for as long as their use is considered to be both necessary and proportionate to the risks. These regulations will be reviewed as part of the Executive's scheduled review of COVID regulations. We all crave the day when all restrictions can be lifted and we move away from the binary choice between health and the restriction of personal freedoms. In the meantime, we face the prospect of some incredibly difficult days and weeks ahead.”
“For a "relevant event", the person responsible is the person responsible for organising the event or the person responsible for the management of the premises at which the event is held or to be held, if no other person is responsible for organising the event. <BR /> <BR />On penalties, while not all Ministers may have been initially aware, the proposed penalties came about only after collaborative work between officials in the Department of Health, the Department of Justice and the PSNI. Whilst I fully expect that the level of penalties will be a source of debate today, it is important to highlight that, despite the many opportunities to do so, no Minister proposed amendments to them. An equality impact assessment (EQIA) screening exercise has been completed, as has a human rights impact assessment.”
“I thank the Member for his point. He will be aware that the engagement for the scheme is led by the Executive Office task force. There have been engagements where the Police Service has been in attendance with not only my departmental officials but industry and stakeholders. That ongoing engagement has been happening since late October and throughout November. I have a list of the dates on which those meetings take place. I cannot put my hand on it at the minute, because I am in the middle of my contribution, but I will hopefully be able to do so in order to answer the Member's question.”
“The Member is correct. That provision, which has been put forward in other jurisdictions, is so that we do not deny someone employment or the opportunity of employment by the adoption of this certification. However, they will be in a facility where the employer has a duty of care to them, as employees, to make sure that they work in a safe space.”
“<BR /> <BR />The following persons are exempt from providing COVID status certification for relevant settings: a person under 18 years of age; a relevant officer, which is a constable or an enforcement officer; an emergency service responder; a person employed at or responsible for the relevant premises or relevant event; in tourist accommodation, a resident, except when that resident is not part of the tourist accommodation to which the public have access and where alcohol may be consumed; a person providing services at a relevant place and time when no member of the public is in attendance at that place; or a person carrying out a public service function or essential repairs or maintenance of the relevant premises or relevant event. <BR /> <BR />The regulations define that the person responsible for implementing —.”
“That permits certification from other jurisdictions to be used as evidence, if it is an authorised vaccine, accompanied by the relevant identification confirming that the person presenting the evidence and named in it are the same. The Verifier app used by businesses will also accept the EU COVID-19 certificate.”
“I hope, for the sake of business, that he did not allow his or his party's ideological objection to COVID certification to cloud his ministerial responsibilities to the businesses that look to him and his Department for support. I ask him to consider bringing something forward. <BR /> <BR />Members have asked me how people who have been vaccinated in different jurisdictions can provide evidence of COVID certification. The regulations provide that a person may evidence their COVID status through certification of a course of doses of an authorised vaccination on paper or in electronic form. The person must also have proof that the final dose has been received at least 14 days before the time of entering an event or premises.”
“They are understandably concerned about the impact on their staff and how they will comply with the additional obligations of the scheme. I have heard the asks for a financial support package. To be absolutely clear, had a scheme been presented, I would have supported it. Businesses should have been provided with much greater support for purchasing scanning equipment and, if necessary, to compensate for staff time in meeting the requirements of the scheme. The Economy Minister has not brought forward such a scheme to support the industry as of yet. I do not think that he is unwilling; I think that he is waiting to see the result of today's debate. I signal to him that I would support a financial support package for the industries and settings that are put under additional cost or strains due to the development of the scheme.”
“I will update the Member in writing with regard to that exact cost. <BR /> <BR />As I mentioned, I have no doubt that the scheme has been challenging. It has been a challenge for people to navigate their way through the application system and nidirect in particular. It has been a challenge for our businesses. Despite what some suggest, however, it is untrue to say that the scheme has been targeted at any particular sector. Yes, by its nature, licensed hospitality may be where the scheme is most frequently utilised, but I remind the House that the scheme will also apply to everything from larger football matches to agricultural shows. <BR /> <BR />I have heard some of the concerns of the sectors impacted.”
“I do not have that exact figure, but the Member will be aware that funding for the development of the app was approved by the entire Executive after a monitoring round bid. That funding was to pay for the development of the app, both domestic and international, and also for the support mechanisms for those who cannot download the app and thus need to call in and get paper certification or another certification. All of that is encompassed in the cost.”
“I thank the Member. I thought that she was going to make an intervention on the point that I was speaking about. I will get back to her on her point later.”
“<BR /> <BR />All the preceding evidence must include, or be accompanied by, a document confirming the individual's name as stated in the evidence provided and photographic ID to confirm the individual's identity. As Members will be aware, vaccination cards can also be accepted as proof of certification, as long as they are accompanied by some form of photographic ID.”
“<BR /> <BR />The regulations also allow people to prove their certification status by certification in paper or electronic form that they have completed a course of doses of an authorised vaccine, with the final dose having been received at least 14 days before the relevant time; by certification via text or email through the NHS COVID-19 reporting app of a negative result of a COVID-19 lateral flow antigen test, or by a negative result from an on-site COVID-19 lateral flow antigen test, in each case taken in the two days before the relevant time; by a valid notification of a positive result of a COVID-19 PCR test taken no earlier than 30 days and no later than 180 days before the relevant time; by confirmation in writing of their participation in a clinical trial for vaccination against coronavirus from the organiser of that trial; or by evidence provided through the Northern Ireland COVID certification process for medical exemption of a clinical reason for not being vaccinated with an authorised vaccine, or an equivalent process in that person's place of residence.”
“<BR /> <BR />Members should note, however, that the following premises and events are exempt from the requirements: hospitality venues at a port or airport; the cross-border intercity Enterprise rail service between Belfast and Dublin; a place of worship or a place in which beliefs are practised during an act of worship; the premises of education establishments other than those parts in which alcohol may be consumed on the premises; premises or parts thereof that are being used solely for the purposes of blood donation at the time that they are being so used; any funeral or marriage ceremony or civil partnership registration, or a gathering that relates to a funeral or marriage ceremony or civil partnership registration, but not a reception held in a hospitality premises; any outdoor event in a public space that is not ticketed and/or for which no charge for entry is made; illuminated trails or pathways; lawful pickets; and drive-in events.”
“<BR /> <BR />It was agreed that the following settings will require COVID-status certification: indoor events with 500 or more attendees at which some or all of the audience are not normally seated; outdoor events with 4,000 or more attendees at which some or all of the audience are not normally seated; events at which more than 10,000 people will be present, regardless of whether they will seated; nightclubs; licensed hospitality premises that serve food and/or drink on the premises; unlicensed hospitality premises in which "bring your own" alcohol is consumed or during times that they are operating under an occasional licence; and cinemas, theatres and conference halls.”
“For many Members, those facts will not come as news. We should, however, take every possible opportunity to highlight them. <BR /> <BR />I will now turn to the detail of the regulations under debate today. The amendment (No. 19) regulations made the following changes. They introduced the requirement for COVID-status certification to gain entry to certain events and premises through one of three methods: proof of double vaccination; proof of a negative COVID-19 lateral flow antigen test within the previous two days; or proof of recovery, as indicated by a positive COVID-19 PCR test in the previous 30 to 180 days. In the light of those separate methods, it is clear that those who describe the scheme as a vaccination passport are out of step with reality.”
“While the number of adults under the age of 50 admitted to hospital is lower, an unvaccinated individual is more than eight times as likely to need hospitalisation from COVID-19. Sadly, unvaccinated individuals aged 50 and over are almost four times as likely to die than fully vaccinated individuals.”
“That is demonstrated by Mills and Rüttenauer of the University of Oxford. Their study, as with so much more of the evidence, is on my Department's website for all to view at their convenience. Together, all these measures will make a further contribution to reducing infections and protecting against severe illness requiring hospital admissions. <BR /> <BR />I make no apology for re-emphasising the effectiveness of vaccines. The COVID wards in our hospitals have many otherwise healthy patients who should not be there. Looking at the latest hospitalisation figures for the end of November, 62% of the adult COVID-19 inpatients aged under 50 were unvaccinated. Unvaccinated individuals aged 50 and over were more than four times as likely to be admitted to hospital with COVID-19 than fully vaccinated individuals.”
“Let us remember that the Vaccine Effectiveness Expert Panel comprises some of the most pre-eminent scientific and analytical specialists in the country. <BR /> <BR />As we have already witnessed, there has been a clear secondary benefit of a COVID certification scheme in increased vaccine uptake. The rise in the number of people over the age of 18 coming forward for their first dose is testament to that. If any Member still does not take my word for it, I encourage them to speak to any of the vaccinators involved with the campaign if they want to hear it for themselves. <BR /> <BR />We should not be surprised, and it is not just anecdotal or coincidental, that there is clear scientific proof that the use of mandatory COVID-19 status certificates leads to greater vaccine uptake.”
“<BR /> <BR />To come back to the COVID certification scheme, there is clear evidence that such a scheme will have the following benefits: it will reduce virus transmission, primarily by reducing the likelihood of infectious individuals entering high-risk settings; it will reduce the risk of serious illness and death and, in doing so, alleviate current and future pressure on the healthcare system; and it will increase the likelihood that higher-risk settings can continue to operate as an alternative to closure or more restrictive measures. <BR /> <BR />There is also overwhelming evidence, including that produced by the UK's Vaccine Effectiveness Expert Panel (VEEP) in September this year, that vaccination reduces the risk of becoming infected with the virus. In particular, it reduces the risk of serious illness requiring hospitalisation.”
“Yet this far into the pandemic, and so long after restrictions have been in place, I, like so many members of the public, continue to have major enduring frustration about the level of enforcement activity. It was never going to be easy, but, as a result of, effectively, zero visible enforcement, the door has been left wide open for anyone who opts, for whatever reason, not to comply. <BR /> <BR />I am conscious of the particular challenges that face policing in Northern Ireland, and I fully appreciate that public confidence in policing is a delicate matter that must be constantly nurtured. We owe it to the responsible majority who wear their masks and follow the other regulations to ensure that there are consequences for those who do not.”
“<BR /> <BR />To those who think that they have some misplaced right or authority to step outside restrictions, I challenge them to walk in the footsteps of our health workers, who, to this day, are still having to deal with the wider consequences of poor public adherence, or to sit down and talk to someone who has lost a loved one. <BR /> <BR />I fully appreciate that these are not normal times or normal asks to make of a society. If anyone had told us two years ago that masks would become commonplace and be a legal requirement in indoor public spaces, no one would have believed them. Equally, no one would have believed much of what has been experienced over the past two years.”
“Members will know that, for too long, I have had real concerns about the level of enforcement regarding the coronavirus regulations. Thankfully, the majority of people adhere to the regulations, but it will have been lost on no one how many people are now openly flaunting them. For some people who are not exempt, walking into a shop or on to a bus without a face covering is regarded as some sort of petty act of rebellion. Not only is that presenting an avoidable risk to themselves and those around them but it is incredibly selfish.”
“While COVID certification contributes to each of those three mechanisms, it does not, on its own, provide a complete solution. SAGE concluded with medium confidence that certification is likely to have medium effect and must, therefore, be used in conjunction with other non-pharmaceutical interventions, with effective implementation through high adherence to guidance or enforcement of regulations. The aim of the combination of these measures is to allow as much of society and the economy to function in as near-normal a way as possible, to minimise the potential need for more severe restrictions and to avoid the hospital system becoming overwhelmed.”
“Whilst a very small number of Members may be trying to portray themselves as some sort of champions of a cause célèbre, I welcome the fact that the clear majority in the House have not so easily succumbed to the noise of social media and the vacuum of naysayers. <BR /> <BR />Nevertheless, there is a clear evidential basis for what we are discussing. Members should be aware that as far back as April 2021, SAGE noted that in relation to COVID-19:”