Stewart Dickson
East Antrim · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“Thank you, Minister, for your answer. Minister, you will have noted that the Government recently announced a VAT cut for some family expenses for a range of activities over the summer. That is perhaps a change.”
“Many do not know how to apply; others do not even realise that the opportunities exist. If the process itself is a barrier to participation, it is really not open to all.”
“I was born in 1950 in Thorndale House, which was one of the homes that is named in the legislation. I was born to married parents, and Thorndale House was a maternity home. It was where you went to have your baby in 1950 on the Antrim Road. My mum and dad went there, I was born and, a few days later, I left with loving parents.”
“I agree with Mr Brett: amendment No 6 is important because it will deal with persons who refuse to provide information or evidence to the inquiry. Amendment No 8 to clause 20 is a tidying-up amendment that will allow the Committee to make interim reports, which will be of benefit to the inquiry process.”
“That is why I want the inquiry to succeed and why it is vital that it succeeds. That is why it is important for us to see that cruelty in the full glare of a public inquiry. That is why it is important that the scheme goes through without further delay. <BR /> <BR />Finally, I place on record my thanks to the Committee Chair.”
“The Assembly faces stark choices, and agreeing the draft Budget as it stands is not a silver bullet, nor is it sustainable for us to continue in the absence of a Budget. It is vital, therefore, that we break the cycle of crisis and collapse that has been destroying our public finances.”
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“Thank you, Minister, for your answer. Minister, you will have noted that the Government recently announced a VAT cut for some family expenses for a range of activities over the summer. That is perhaps a change. Can you continue to press for a similar trial for VAT in the hospitality sector and offer Northern Ireland as the place to do that?”
“I place on record my thanks to her: thank you, Chair.”
“That is why I want the inquiry to succeed and why it is vital that it succeeds. That is why it is important for us to see that cruelty in the full glare of a public inquiry. That is why it is important that the scheme goes through without further delay. <BR /> <BR />Finally, I place on record my thanks to the Committee Chair. You might expect me to do that because she is a party colleague, but, in truth, Paula Bradshaw in particular has expended a great deal of time in engaging purposefully with victims and survivors. She has engaged with academics and all the people around this, and she has developed a tremendous empathy and understanding. She has guided the Committee through the complexities of the Bill, and I have to say that I am immensely proud of the work that she has done as Committee Chair.”
“I was born in 1950 in Thorndale House, which was one of the homes that is named in the legislation. I was born to married parents, and Thorndale House was a maternity home. It was where you went to have your baby in 1950 on the Antrim Road. My mum and dad went there, I was born and, a few days later, I left with loving parents. However, the cruelty of that situation is that, on the other side of the curtain, the same midwives, nurses and staff were being unbelievably cruel to single mothers. I could not get that out of my head when all this came to me. It dawned on me that I was born in a place where people, through the Salvation Army, were providing Christian care to married mothers but, at the same time, were unleashing unbelievable horrors and mental trauma on single mothers. I found that very difficult to comprehend and understand.”
“Whatever those reasons were, the discussions in the Committee were always respectful and always caveated with individuals' concerns. I place on record my thanks to Phillip Brett for the way in which he handled the matter. He resolutely opposed the proposal during Committee Stage, but he did so with dignity and reasoned argument. That did not gain the support of the Committee, but he has done a really good thing this evening by saying that he is not prepared to see the House divide on the matter. I applaud you for that, Phillip; thank you very much indeed. <BR /> <BR />We need also to reflect on the times that people went through and the trauma that mothers and, subsequently, children went through in those homes. I am going to tell the House a story now.”
“I support the amendments that my colleague the Chair of the Committee indicated. Amendment Nos 9 and 10 were tabled by Mr Carroll for all the reasons that Members have outlined. It is not that there is no concern, sympathy or empathy for the situation regarding workhouses, but I believe that the arrangements in the Bill allow for the inquiry to address those issues, if it is practical for it to do so at that particular stage. <BR /> <BR />With regard to the posthumous date, I want to do two things. First, I express my gratitude for the hard work that has gone on at Committee and for the deliberations that we had in order to arrive at that date. It is difficult to understand why we had to go through that process in order to bring that situation to a conclusion today.”
“I agree with Mr Brett: amendment No 6 is important because it will deal with persons who refuse to provide information or evidence to the inquiry. Amendment No 8 to clause 20 is a tidying-up amendment that will allow the Committee to make interim reports, which will be of benefit to the inquiry process. <BR /> <BR />Finally, I thank the members of the public and those who have been directly affected for being here today and staying with us throughout the process. I also thank the members of the Committee for the work that has been done to agree the amendments in group 1. I particularly place on record my thanks to the officials and the Bill Clerks, who have been so helpful to the Committee in the very delicate area of work that we have undertaken, and to both junior Ministers for the diligence that they have given to the work.”
“Like my colleagues have done, particularly all those who are members of the Committee for the Executive Office, I acknowledge the bravery and resilience of many of those who have been wronged and failed by those appalling institutions. I trust that the legislation will go some way to redressing their hurt and pain, and that it will provide those people with the space in which to heal and move beyond all that. <BR /> <BR />I will make reference to three of the amendments in the group. Amendment No 4 concerns the provision of documentation. We, as a Committee, had a very fruitful and lengthy discussion with the Public Record Office about how records are being preserved and can be procured for the public inquiry.”
“We know better than most what happens when public confidence in institutions breaks down. The last thing that any of us wants is to give people another reason to disengage from politics here. Every time there is a reasonable question about whether an appointment was made on merit or connection, public trust takes a hit. We cannot ask people to have faith in the institutions and then hand them reasons not to. The Alliance Party will support the motion. We will keep a keen eye out to make sure that the post does not become another box-ticking exercise.”
“Many do not know how to apply; others do not even realise that the opportunities exist. If the process itself is a barrier to participation, it is really not open to all. I urge the Executive Office and the commissioner to make public a profile of all the vacancies and to encourage the widest range of people to apply and be considered for the posts. <BR /> <BR />I make it clear, however, that this is not a blanket criticism of all appointments that were made while the commissioner's post was empty. The concern is that the independent check was not there. We simply have no way of knowing whether appointments were made well or badly during that period, because there was nobody independent to tell people. Ministers who ran open competitions on merit did the right thing, but the public could not verify that, and that is the central problem.”
“We like to talk a great deal in the Chamber about equality, diversity and inclusion, but if we measure only half, we are basically flying blind, or, worse, doing so deliberately. That is a real and fundamental weakness in the system, and it requires immediate attention. <BR /> <BR />There is a pattern that many Members will recognise, which is the same profiles appearing on boards. That is not a criticism of the individuals involved, many of whom bring considerable experience and a genuine commitment to public service, but it raises the questions of why we keep seeing the same people, who is not getting through and what information is needed to widen the pool. People in business, community organisations and the voluntary sector describe the process as not feeling accessible to them.”
“The recruitment competition was not even launched until March 2025. What happened during the four-year period before that? The public deserve answers to that question. <BR /> <BR />The second issue is that it is not enough to simply have a commissioner in post; the system needs to allow them to deliver. Claire Keatinge has already said that the data on who sits on the boards of our public bodies is "poor" — not inadequate or incomplete but "poor" — and we need an explanation of that description. That is the commissioner herself, the person whose entire role is to oversee the process, telling us that she cannot say with total confidence who sits at the table in those bodies and boardrooms. Fewer than half of the applicants complete monitoring forms.”
“I rise on behalf of the Alliance Party, and as Deputy Chair of the Committee for the Executive Office. I have followed this issue closely, and raised it on a number of occasions at the Committee and in the House. The concerns in the motion are real and well founded. <BR /> <BR />Let me start with the vacancy. The post of Commissioner for Public Appointments sat vacant for more than four years between May 2021 and August 2025. During that time, Ministers continued to make appointments to boards and other public bodies. They did so without an independent regulator in post to oversee the process. Therefore, although I welcomed Claire Keatinge's appointment when it came, because it was the right appointment, I was clear that it was long overdue, and I make no apology for saying that again today.”
“Methinks that the Member protests too much.”
“Collapsed Executives and political crises, followed by Secretaries of State flying in with chequebooks, are not the solution for public services in Northern Ireland. If we are serious about sustainable finances, the time has come for democratic renewal and reforms to Stormont to fix our broken politics. It is time to remove the vetoes and return the place to the service of working families across Northern Ireland.”
“Just last week, the Fiscal Council confirmed that Northern Ireland will be short-changed anywhere between £1 billion and £3 billion compared with our counterparts in Scotland and Wales. To be clear, the ask is not for special treatment but for equal treatment with the rest of the United Kingdom. Finally, while revenue-raising will not plug the hole in our finances, it can and would improve the Executive's credibility. Proposals are already on the table around changes to our rating system that would ensure that it is fairer, progressive and consistent with the Executive's priorities. <BR /> <BR />On public services, we deserve consistent, stable and accountable leadership over the medium to long term, rather than the boom and bust that we have experienced over previous decades.”
“The cost of division is estimated to be upwards of £800 million per year, which is money that we can ill-afford to squander, and the Alliance Party's previous proposal was that we put a statutory duty on the Fiscal Council to have due regard to the cost of division in its work. Secondly, progress on public service transformation has simply not been rapid enough. The public service transformation board has made a promising start over the past two years. However, it needs to go further and faster. Thirdly, our funding formula. After years of false narratives that Northern Ireland politicians were guilty of begging-bowl politics, the UK Treasury finally conceded in negotiations that Northern Ireland had been underfunded.”
“The Alliance Party is simply proposing this: a clear plan to tackle the cost of division, duplication and waste in our system; an Executive-wide commitment to public service transformation, particularly in Health and Education, our two highest-spending Departments; a rapid review of our funding formula to ensure that Northern Ireland gets a fair deal on its public finances when compared with other devolved nations; and a willingness around the Executive table to look at progressive revenue-raising, ensuring that those who have the broadest shoulders in our society bear the fairer costs, without placing additional burdens on hard-pressed families. <BR /> <BR />I will look at each of those in turn.”
“<BR /> <BR />When the Assembly was restored, the Alliance Party made a clear case to the Government that a Finance Minister and an independent commission should be jointly appointed to assess Northern Ireland's finances and funding formula. That was not taken forward, and it was a missed opportunity. Again today, our focus is not on party politics or point-scoring but, rather, on solutions. We have a short window of opportunity in which we can change the trajectory of our finances.”
“The Assembly faces stark choices, and agreeing the draft Budget as it stands is not a silver bullet, nor is it sustainable for us to continue in the absence of a Budget. It is vital, therefore, that we break the cycle of crisis and collapse that has been destroying our public finances. Stop-go government, austerity, Brexit, the global pandemic, reckless overspending by Ministers and an almost allergic disposition when it comes to making transformative decisions over the past decade have deprived us of key opportunities to place the Executive on a more sustainable footing. As a result, we have some of the longest hospital waiting lists in western Europe, stubbornly high levels of economic inactivity, failing infrastructure and unacceptable housing waiting lists. Simply put, it cannot continue.”
“We cannot remain in a state of suspension for ever. The uncertainty caused by the absence of a multi-year Budget is plunging our public services into disarray and depriving us of key economic opportunities, holding our communities back. The draft Budget previously proposed by the Minister simply is not workable. Departments report a £700 million funding gap in year 1. By the end of a three-year Budget cycle, public services will face swingeing cuts and austerity. <BR /> <BR />Take the Department of Justice. That Department alone would be underfunded to the tune of £215 million by 2028-29. That is the equivalent of the entire budget of the Prison Service, the Probation Board, the Youth Justice Agency and Forensic Science.”
“Not only were we right to oppose that but my party made that a cause and called strongly on the local authority that refused to change the name to do so. This party has a long, proud record —”
“Yes, please. On that line of thought, when it comes to putting thoughts of racism and other behaviour into young children's minds, does the Member agree that an obscene banner pinned to a children's playground by adults most definitely imprints such attitudes in children's minds and encourages them? The children are to be protected, and the adults are to be locked up.”
“Does the Member agree that it is not just the Justice Department that those organisations and agencies have to work with, and that their relationship with other Departments, particularly those in which the Minister has decided to deploy a petition of concern, against the expert knowledge of those organisations, will be difficult in the future?”
“Thank you. The Member, very powerfully, listed all the organisations that interact with young people in Northern Ireland, many of which interact with the justice system. Those organisations have expressed, very strongly and vocally, their opinion on the minimum age of criminal responsibility. Does the Member agree that those organisations have to work with other organisations and Departments in Northern Ireland, including the Department of Education, the Department of Health and the Department for Communities? I would have thought that they will now have an interesting interface with the Ministers from those Departments.”
“I thank the First Minister for her statement. First Minister, what discussions, if any, have you had with the Irish Government about compensation from the institutions for the victims and survivors of the mother-and-baby homes? From working on the Bill, the Committee understands that the Irish Government have found it difficult to achieve that. We have worked tirelessly in Northern Ireland to see whether we can ensure that the institutions are made to pay for the horrible things that they did to people during that time. It would be useful to have that as an ongoing discussion.”
“I will ask the Member one question. He speaks with incredible passion and, for some people, perhaps even with some authority and knowledge. Indeed, his words might be persuasive, but has he not the slightest comprehension that he totally and utterly lost the plot the moment that he, along with Ms Armstrong, Mr Chambers and Mr Butler, signed the petitions of concern? Does he not accept and appreciate that? If he genuinely believes in the arguments that he is forcefully and graphically putting in the House tonight, and if he stands by and genuinely understands those arguments and believes that the House should be persuaded by the words that he has used, why on earth did he sign the petitions of concern?”
“I will give the Member a practical example. The staff and principal of a school in my constituency were so concerned about the proximity of drug dealers and adults when young people were going out at lunchtime from the school, that they had to ban all unsupervised exit from the school. Children could not even go to the local sweet shop or somewhere to, perhaps, get an alternative to school meals. The sole reason for that was that adults were preying on those children. They knew their vulnerabilities, knew who their parents were and abused those vulnerabilities to incite them into drug dealing — effectively running county lines.”
“Thank you very much, Minister, for your "No ifs or buts" and robust comments around all of the horrific incidents that happened last week. <BR /> <BR />Minister, will you join me in condemning the ripping down of railings outside the operating theatre at Whiteabbey Hospital, which were ultimately used as spears to throw at the police in a riot at Cloughfern corner? What is the impact now and what will the ongoing impact be on your ability to carry out the international recruitment into Northern Ireland of vitally needed healthcare workers?”
“Deputy First Minister, I appreciate your comments about the global effect on our high streets, the report that was delivered in 2023 and the actions that flowed from that. However, with the exception of rate reduction, it is genuinely difficult to see how those actions have hit home on our high streets. I think particularly of my home town of Carrickfergus where more businesses are closing down than are opening up and where there is dereliction on the high street. What support will the Executive give to my colleague, Minister Muir, on the Dilapidation Bill? Do you agree with me that that is one aspect that will help to revitalise our high streets?”
“Minister, you have been talking about the excellent work that Encompass does. However, the regional Encompass team recently wrote to GPs expressing concerns that some 12,000 red-flag letters and other pieces of correspondence seem to have gone missing from the system. GPs are very rightly concerned that they are not getting the appropriate feedback from Encompass about their patients. That is a matter of serious concern. I have a letter from a GP complaining about 12,000 letters, some of which are red-flagged and some of which are downgrades, and they simply have not got them.”
“This is such an important and difficult issue to deal with. The Chair of the Committee indicated to you — everyone in the House will acknowledge — that TEO has engaged extensively with a wide range of groups. However, there seems to be some obfuscation around why you did not engage on, or how you came to a decision on, the date of 29 September. How did you come to the decision about that date? How did you do that? Did you do it on your own, or can you genuinely point us to who you consulted with in order to get to that date?”
“Therefore, while I cannot hold out hope for those who are sitting in the Public Gallery today, there are opportunities to put this right, and I will continue to press for that in the other forums and the right places, if this Chamber is not the right place to do that today. <BR /> <BR />The Bill does important things, and I will support its passage, with the caveats that my colleague Paula Bradshaw outlined about the various amendments in group 2, but we need to be direct about what is in front of us today. Our Committee's amendment to clause 31 has not been selected, and I want to place on record my disappointment about that.”
“That position directly addressed the concerns of survivors and campaign groups. We heard from organisation after organisation. We heard from Birth Mothers and their Children for Justice, Birth Mothers and their Children Together, WAVE, Adopt NI and experts from our two universities and from Dublin City University. The evidence was consistent and overwhelming. That date is borrowed from an announcement of an entirely different inquiry, and it has no principled basis in justice. <BR /> <BR />I need to say this clearly to those people who wrote to our Committee and made incredibly brave and emotional statements with regard to the legislation: the legislation is not finished; there will be a Further Consideration Stage and a Final Stage.”
“However, I reiterate the point that I made earlier to junior Minister Reilly in respect of all those who will ultimately have to contribute, either to this admissions-based scheme or, finally, to the redress scheme for those who will ultimately go to the public inquiry. That definitely includes the institutions, this place — we are the inheritors of the previous Government in this place — and the United Kingdom Government, which had Ministers who were responsible over many years. <BR /> <BR />I know, Mr Deputy Speaker, that you have referred to the Speaker's ruling, and I hope not to incur your wrath, but it is worth reminding the House that our Committee report dealt with the removal of the arbitrary posthumous date of 29 September in clause 31. The Committee did not reach that decision or position lightly.”
“Much has been said about the second group of amendments. Much of it is about entitlement to payment and the amount. I do not intend to go into any further detail, because other Members have already done that. It was clear to the Committee that £10,000 was an insufficient sum of money. It is a figure that was used for the historical institutional abuse victims a number of years ago, and, as other Members have mentioned, inflation has eroded that figure ever since. I am pleased that the junior Minister has agreed with Sinéad's amendment, and I have no doubt that the House will unite around that today. <BR /> <BR />Yes, there is an understanding of the budgetary pressures on the Department, and officials have outlined those to us on numerous occasions when in front of the Committee.”
“I struggle to understand what the Minister is saying. If someone was born into an institution and then left it, probably having no knowledge of having been in that institution — certainly not at the time of their birth — and, a number of years later, ended up in the same institution or a different one, that is a second standard situation; it is not an unstandardised situation. I fail to understand why the legislation cannot take account of two incidents in a small number of people's lives.”
“I thank the junior Minister very much for her comments on seeking contributions not only from various organisations but from the United Kingdom Government and the Treasury. It is important for people to understand that, as is being said at this point, while the cost of compensation as a result of the Bill will fall to the Northern Ireland Assembly, the reality of life has been that, for many years, there was no Parliament or Assembly in this place. The United Kingdom Government Ministers were the people who were culpable and liable for the abuses that were going on when they were Secretaries of State or junior Ministers in the Northern Ireland Office. Therefore, there is a very real argument to make the UK Government pay, and I trust that the Ministers will take that argument forward forcefully.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I note in particular his comments about the charitable status of various organisations. There is still some concern for us in respect of the relationship between charity legislation in Northern Ireland and the impact that the Bill will have. There is still space and time for the Committee to continue to do work in order for it to be absolutely sure that charitable status does not trump the Bill's ability to seek payments or that it excuses people from making payments. I look forward to hearing what the junior Ministers have to say in that regard.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. Yes, there has to be adequate time. On the figures that are currently contained in the amendments, as set out, and as the Chair has already indicated, certainly, we will support Gerry Carroll's amendment with regard to the move from 14 days to 28 days. To be absolutely clear — this point will apply to other amendments in other groups later in today's debate — should the evidence of today's debate indicate to us that we need to bring further amendments, I am certainly not afraid of suggesting or saying in the Chamber today that those amendments will be brought forward at Further Consideration Stage.”
“Thank you. I agree that we have absolutely pushed the Executive Office to the limit, plus we have tested the legal situation to the best of our ability in respect of this and have looked at best international practice. <BR /> <BR />Moving on, I also welcome the extension of the appeals period from 30 days to 90 days under amendment No 36; an amendment that promotes the scheme actively and ensures that survivors, including those in the diaspora, know of it, how it exists and how to access it. <BR /> <BR />Those are among other amendments that we will support today. They make real and meaningful improvements. I wish to speak to the other two groups of amendments as we —.”
“Yes. I thank the Member for her intervention. I absolutely agree with her. We have absolutely gone as far as we can to do that. While we cannot compel, we have certainly taken this to the very limit that I believe is legally possible for us.”
“Thank you very much, Chair. I agree with the Chair: it would be useful and helpful if those institutions came forward now and offered restitution. However, it cannot be token restitution. Regrettably, token restitution is what we have seen coming forward from other inquiries in other jurisdictions.”
“We have worked exceedingly hard as a Committee to see what we can do. We pushed back in the discussion that we had with the Executive Office. We looked at best international practice. We took strong legal advice to see what we could do to ensure that those institutions that failed people are made to pay. Regrettably, we are not on particularly strong legal ground with regard to this matter. Amendment No 10 is the best that we can do to achieve responsibility for those organisations to pay for their guilt. It is not where I want to be, nor is it where we should be. We should have an amendment that states that, where the inquiry finds you guilty of the crimes that you have committed against those people, you should pay.”
“Amendment No 10 inserts a new clause on the financial contributions from institutions that are found to have committed systemic failings. It has already been mentioned. A Member raised it in an intervention. This has been an area on which I, as a Committee member, have pressed extremely hard, because, as Members will be aware, in other parts of the United Kingdom, such as Scotland — I also saw a documentary recently on the BBC with regard to similar circumstances in England — and particularly in the Republic of Ireland, it has seemed extremely difficult to be able to get institutions — the perpetrators of these events — to contribute financially. While many of the perpetrators of those harms are long since gone, the institutions, their charitable status and their property remain to this day.”
“Amendment No 1, which requires the terms of reference to be published within six months of the Act's commencement, is a commitment to survivors that the process will not drift, as all too often happens in these types of processes. It has gone on for so long and has been so difficult for people. Once the Bill gets Royal Assent and becomes law, it must not be allowed to drift. Over the many months of evidence, we have all heard how the uncertainty has caused people emotional trauma. They have waited far too long for the legislation to happen.”
“Her attention to the detail of the Bill is second to none. <BR /> <BR />Over many months, we received 91 written submissions and heard oral evidence from 24 organisations. We held round-table events across Northern Ireland, and, as has been stated, members of the Committee undertook trauma-informed training before we began the process. I am immensely proud of the work that the Committee did and the work that has been done in the Committee to produce its report and the amendments that are before the House today. <BR /> <BR />I will now speak to the amendments — at least a couple of them — in group 1.”
“We heard stories of people who were treated with stone-cold dislike because of the circumstances that they found themselves in. The stories are nothing but harrowing. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the progress that the Bill has made and strongly acknowledge all the people who are at the heart of what we have been trying to achieve through the legislation, particularly those who are in the Public Gallery today. I assure the House that the Committee took its responsibilities in scrutinising the Bill extremely seriously. Like other members, I came to the Committee some time ago, when the Bill was already under way. Again, I pay tribute to the Chair of the Committee not only because she is a party colleague but because I am genuinely impressed by the work of Paula Bradshaw and her knowledge and understanding of all the cases that came before us.”
“I begin, like all Members who have spoken in the debate, by paying tribute to the victims and survivors and all those who had the bravery to come forward and tell their stories. I thank all who have assisted them. We listened to what people had to tell us, including in Committee, about traumatic circumstances, and we heard very personal stories. I also thank the experts and supporters from a range of organisations who have been with the victims and survivors from the beginning of the Bill process. I sincerely thank all those people. <BR /> <BR />It has been a litany of horrific stories. I do not think that I will ever lose the memory of things that people told us as we conducted our Committee inquiry. We listened to harrowing stories, as my colleague Paula Bradshaw, the Chair of the Committee, said.”
“<BR /> <BR />Based on the evidence, we call on the Northern Ireland Executive to deliver an urgent plan to reduce the longest cancer waiting times in the UK and ensure that patients are diagnosed and treated without delay; prevent more cancers by implementing tobacco and vapes legislation; renew commitments to diagnosing cancers early, including the roll-out of targeted lung cancer screening and improved access to primary care; and strengthen cancer research by supporting the conditions needed for global talent innovation and long-term investment in life sciences. Behind every statistic is a person whose life changes the moment they hear the words, "You have cancer". Ensuring timely, quality care for every patient in Northern Ireland must be a priority.”