Stewart Dickson
East Antrim · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“Thank you, Minister, for your answer. Minister, you will have noted that the Government recently announced a VAT cut for some family expenses for a range of activities over the summer. That is perhaps a change.”
“Many do not know how to apply; others do not even realise that the opportunities exist. If the process itself is a barrier to participation, it is really not open to all.”
“I was born in 1950 in Thorndale House, which was one of the homes that is named in the legislation. I was born to married parents, and Thorndale House was a maternity home. It was where you went to have your baby in 1950 on the Antrim Road. My mum and dad went there, I was born and, a few days later, I left with loving parents.”
“I agree with Mr Brett: amendment No 6 is important because it will deal with persons who refuse to provide information or evidence to the inquiry. Amendment No 8 to clause 20 is a tidying-up amendment that will allow the Committee to make interim reports, which will be of benefit to the inquiry process.”
“That is why I want the inquiry to succeed and why it is vital that it succeeds. That is why it is important for us to see that cruelty in the full glare of a public inquiry. That is why it is important that the scheme goes through without further delay. <BR /> <BR />Finally, I place on record my thanks to the Committee Chair.”
“The Assembly faces stark choices, and agreeing the draft Budget as it stands is not a silver bullet, nor is it sustainable for us to continue in the absence of a Budget. It is vital, therefore, that we break the cycle of crisis and collapse that has been destroying our public finances.”
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“On that note, I will finish. I thank my colleague and indicate our support for all the amendments.”
“<BR /> <BR />Apart from the congratulations that I want to offer my colleague for the work that she has done, I have discussed with her all the amendments being debated at this point — those of a technical nature and that of Mr Allister. I understand that she is content with that and, as Mr Beggs said, it adds the additional reassurance that when licensing premises where there is the involvement of young people, that is an issue that the court has to take into consideration.”
“First, I apologise for not being here for the commencement of the debate. The timings have moved quickly today, and that is good for the Assembly. I, too, congratulate my colleague Judith Cochrane for the work that she has done. Indeed, looking first-hand at how an individual Member has worked to plan and guide a piece of legislation through the Assembly has been something that I have appreciated. For me, it has provided a learning opportunity as well and, perhaps if I am returned in the next mandate, it will give me the opportunity to consider how one might also bring a private Member's Bill to the Assembly.”
“I will conclude simply by reiterating the words of others that youth justice is an improving situation, and I am delighted to say that this Minister has spent a great deal of time creating that improvement.”
“<BR /> <BR />Criminal Justice Inspection also noted some of the recommendations that were unable to be met, for example the introduction of statutory time limits, developing a multidisciplinary model of practice for children in need, putting arrangements on a statutory footing and the legal reform of bail. The Committee noted that the Minister intends to speak in the Assembly next week on the subject of children in the justice system. <BR /> <BR />To conclude, the Committee notes the general feeling —”
“Nevertheless, Criminal Justice Inspection expressed less certainty around the success of meeting recommendations in the future, particularly because many of the recommendations required working with other Departments. That is a theme that has come out of many of the contributions thus far, and this is why it is so important that everybody has concluded their comments by saying that, in developing the next Programme for Government, other Departments need to be able to buy into the justice system and deliver for us in order to get those good outcomes.”
“It was keen to highlight the fact that no child under the age of 18 was held in an adult prison in the four years up to the final report in 2015. It is good that we know now that fewer children were committed to youth custody and that the age of the offending profile of those who were committed meant that the most difficult and disturbed young people were being dealt with appropriately. <BR /> <BR />Good work has been undertaken with youth engagement clinics, youth diversion and restorative justice, and there is improved identification and support for children at risk.”
“<BR /> <BR />Our third seminar, which took place in June, was led by the Law Society. It took a different approach to the experience of children and young people in the criminal justice system, considering initiatives in the Children Order public law proceedings. That offered those attending an opportunity to discuss the particular challenges faced by children and young people in the care system. Issues arising from fostering and adoption, the value of early intervention, and multi-agency approaches covering health, education, social services and the criminal justice system were highlighted. <BR /> <BR />In January, Criminal Justice Inspection briefed the Committee on its second youth justice review and told us that it considered nearly 60% of the recommendations that it had made to have been achieved.”
“<BR /> <BR />In our considerations, the Lord Chief Justice, Sir Declan Morgan, spoke of the delays in the youth justice system. I know that that is an issue that the Minister and Department have been progressing and working on throughout the life of this mandate. The Lord Chief Justice believed that the statutory time limit should fall progressively from 120 to 50 days. <BR /> <BR />He discussed how it may be beneficial for a young person to avoid a criminal record. That is an area that the Committee has a strong view on. If at all possible, we want to see young people being given every chance in life, rather than being marked with a criminal record at the beginning of their life. If they accept a guilty plea or can be involved in diversionary disposals, the Committee is keen to see those things being worked out.”
“I genuinely congratulate Alastair for the work that he has done and the way in which he has led the Committee in the latter part of the mandate. This report alone is a tremendous legacy for a future Justice Minister and Committee. <BR /> <BR />I was asked to speak on the youth justice aspects of the report. Building a justice system that is fit for the needs of our society in the 21st century cannot ignore the issues of youth justice. Previous reviews of the justice system emphasised prevention and intervention to redirect people headed towards offending and even prison. A broad approach was and is considered most appropriate, involving family, schools and communities. The principles of proportionality, transparency and fairness should also be at the heart of any youth justice system.”
“I add my words of thanks to the Clerk and staff of the Committee for the incredible work that they did in putting the report together, and not just this report but the work that they did throughout this mandate. Mr Maginness was right: if it is not the best Committee, and I agree that it is the best Committee in the Assembly, it is certainly a Committee that has had to deal with some of the most complex issues. It dealt with them in a timely way, and a lot of that was down to the work of the Committee Clerk. <BR /> <BR />It is important to reference, as others did, that the report is the brainchild of the Chair of the Committee. He put an amazing amount of effort into the report and the whole lead-up to it, in the way in which justice seminars were organised and all of that.”
“I am supportive of the Minister's motion today in respect of judicial pensions. Mr Speaker, for ease of reference, there are two further motions on the agenda that also affect the Department of Justice, and although they are not connected to this one, I will save time by saying now that I will be supporting each of them.”
“I appreciate the Minister's answer. Given the contribution that those who come into Northern Ireland from outside can make, they will undoubtedly add to the skills mix. Is he satisfied that, with the requirements for a reduced corporation tax rate, we will have the required skills mix, including among those who have emigrated to Northern Ireland?”
“I, too, congratulate the Minister on the way in which he has developed his Department during his time in office. Whoever your successor is will have a hard job to follow. If it is you, it will be an easy job to follow.”
“It demonstrates some of the confusion that there is out there, and, sadly, we have not been able to deal with other organisations that have been knocking on the door of the Committee to have issues for them resolved, for example Drumbo stadium. I believe that there are other ways in which we need to amend our licensing laws, both to protect people in respect of the consumption of alcohol and to allow opportunities for it to be made available where that is appropriate. I am content with the work that my colleague has done on the Bill, and I note that the vast majority of the amendments are of a technical nature.”
“I also believe that the way in which the naming of the stadium has been dealt with at clause 2 is helpful to allow the Department to provide for regulation because, as other Members have said, we do not know but we hope that perhaps there will be further improvements to stadia facilities in Northern Ireland. There may be another sport coming along that will want to have an outdoor stadium home, and it would be foolish for us not to include that in the legislation. <BR /> <BR />It would be remiss of me not to make reference to the comments made by the Chair of the Committee about the need for a comprehensive review of licensing laws in Northern Ireland. While that issue is not necessarily linked to the Bill, I think that the Bill demonstrates the complexity of the existing licensing laws that we have.”
“As a member of the Committee, I have to say that the Committee staff and the members of the Committee have reciprocated all of that work in a very professional way. <BR /> <BR />There are key elements in the Bill, and she has worked very hard to overcome concerns, for example with regard to residents. I also believe that she has comprehensively answered the question in relation to how children and young people below the age of the right to consume alcohol are dealt with in a practical manner inside the stadia. I think that there are great lessons that can be learnt from all of that.”
“I am sure that Mrs Cochrane, when embarking on her quest to bring the Bill, did not think that, on the day that we would be having the conversation at Consideration Stage, she would be being congratulated for the work she has done to prepare the Bill, alongside congratulations for Carl Frampton, who has brought incredible glory to Northern Ireland and who is someone we should all be very proud of today. <BR /> <BR />I am proud of the work that my colleague Mrs Cochrane has done in bringing forward a private Member's Bill. I have seen at close hand the work required to develop that Bill, the amount of time that has been spent on consultation and the very determined way in which she has worked with the Committee.”
“If that person happens, for example, to have been bankrupt or struck off as a company director in a previous business life, that in itself would disallow them from being a minister in the Church because a minister in the Church is an elder and an elder is a trustee and, in those circumstances, they would not be fit for office. There is the line between the influence of state over Church, and that is the nub of the issue that the Churches have come up against. It is important for the Assembly to make that distinction.”
“The Member says that it is not too much to ask, but when we questioned the clerk to the general assembly of the Presbyterian Church, he indicated that all Presbyterian ministers, male and female, are elders and are therefore subject to the legislation. That is a key and important point, and that is the issue where we effectively see Church and state coming together. Any male or female who wishes to become a member of the Presbyterian Church ministry does so through qualification and through their conviction to serve the Church.”
“I, too, wish to declare an interest as an elder in Greenisland Presbyterian Church. That having been said, I, like Mr Beggs, feel that the regulation is proportionate to the needs of the Church; it meets a very specific balance between the roles of Church and state. I am also satisfied that the Charity Commission is not being excluded in any way as a result of the enactment of this piece of legislation, but rather that it retains overall control while, within that, allowing the Churches — and it is more than one — to regulate themselves to the same standard as that which would be expected by the Charity Commission. I am therefore happy to support it.”
“Minister, when it comes to fines and penalties, can you tell us who will be paying the fines and penalties if there is, for example, a pollution incident on land at Woodburn forest over which you have administrative control?”
“I wish to be brief on the matter, but I want to refer to the points that Mr Beggs made, particularly with regard to access to information about landlords. It is clear that we should strive to have maximum openness. However, it was reasonable for the Committee to listen to the concerns that were raised. At the end of the day, openness should not equate to nosiness, and it should be relevant to those who wish to have and require to have the appropriate information. We are content to support all the amendments.”
“I will try to be even briefer, Mr Speaker. I support the amendments.”
“I, too, thank not only the current Minister but his predecessor, our Committee Clerk and officials, and officials from the Department for the work that they did as we prepared our report. I acknowledge the suggestions that were taken up by officials and the way in which the Minister has brought forward all of the amendments. Colleagues from the Committee have already spoken. The Chairperson and three other members have spoken on the value of the amendments, some of which are technical, and others propose changes that are important for the competence of the Bill. I do not intend to add further to that debate. Suffice it to say that the Alliance Party is supportive of the Bill at this Stage and will continue to support it to Final Stage.”
“You commented that Mr Lunn said that there was no place for segregation in education in Northern Ireland. It is not only Mr Lunn who said that: President Obama, when he came to Belfast, said that as well.”
“Minister, the reality is that the regulations came in only a couple of weeks ago. You have completely and utterly failed the wedding car industry, and, much further than that, you have disappointed many brides and grooms. Quite simply, you have driven the wedding car business out of business, particularly when it comes to the use of vintage cars. Will you agree, yet again, to meet me and the industry to see whether we can hammer out a solution and a settlement of the issue?”
“I thank Mr Lunn for giving way. We really have to examine the whole issue of what was proposed yesterday. If my memory serves me right, the press statement from the leader of the DUP — not from the First Minister — said that the DUP had requested the Health Minister to convene that. That seems to me to be a rather party political decision, rather than a decision of the First Minister. It does not seem to me to hold a great deal of validity, and it would have validity if it were this Assembly voting tonight to set that up and for us and this Assembly to be setting the terms of reference. I am certainly uncomfortable with the DUP setting the terms of reference.”
“I thank the Member for making reference to guidelines. Does he agree with me that, once guidelines were withdrawn and challenged, the genie was out of the bottle and that what we now need are legislative foundations to build future guidelines?”
“OK. It is just in relation to the use and the terminology of "fatal foetal abnormality". There is a very good reason for using it: it is the list that Mr McCrea has given us, and I do not believe that it is an exhaustive list. Medical science — we should all praise it — is constantly improving, and it is the case that some of those conditions can be dealt with and some may ultimately be very amenable to medical intervention. That is why the term has been used, rather than a prescriptive list that might fall behind.”
“I believe that the Minister has adequately commented in the direction that I wished to go in, which was to point out that there was a consultation. Therefore, it rather negates the reading back of comments that I made in respect of a previous Bill when there was no appropriate consultation.”
“I appreciate your giving way. Apologies for trying to stop you when you had just started. Just by way of correction — I think that this is vital because it casts the difference between the Alliance Party and the SDLP — this is a matter of conscience in the Alliance Party. We do not have a policy on this matter. This is a proposal by me and Mr Lunn, and it does not reflect the views of the Alliance Party. That is unlike the SDLP, which seems to be a homogeneous, anti-fatal-foetal-abnormality party.”
“Does the Member agree with me that there might have been more validity and the proposal might have been more genuine had it been a commission that the Assembly would set up, which would be time-limited and to which the Assembly would agree to accept the outcome of its recommendations, based on agreed terms of reference? That would take us towards something that is genuine. That is my concern about the proposals that have been made.”
“I understand discomfort, and I understand the pressure that we are all under when considering this matter, but we should not go against what our consciences tell us. I ask everyone to stand up and be counted today or, at the very least, to abstain. We must take action. We need to provide certainty to our clinicians. We need to provide access to healthcare and options for women facing the mental and physical trauma of a fatal foetal abnormality in pregnancy. <BR /> <BR />I ask you to support the amendment. If your conscience challenges you and if you have given your promise, now is the time to act.”
“<BR /> <BR />My plea is that, today, we put aside party interest and vote according to our conscience and what we believe to be right. It is for that reason that I have to express my disappointment at the position taken, for example, by the SDLP, a position that, I am sure, would make many of its sister parties blush. I recognise that this is not the position of all MLAs on the Benches right around the House. I think the late president John F Kennedy was right when he said:”
“We are a representative system of government, so we cannot make all our decisions on the basis of opinion polls, but it gives us an idea of the feeling that there is out there, especially with people making comments like, "The majority of people in Northern Ireland are opposed to change": I do not believe that to be true. <BR /> <BR />Many of you here have indicated your support personally to Sarah Ewart. Today is your chance to make good on those pledges of support. I made her a promise when I spoke to her that I would try to do something, and this is me trying to do that something. The decision that we have to take is undoubtedly a considerable one, but it pales into insignificance compared with the decision that Sarah Ewart was forced to make.”
“I will be as clear as I can. I have said that, if this were to proceed to the next stage, I would be happy to work with those who have much greater resource and legal mind on my proposition. The very point that Mr McCarthy makes is what we would like to see encapsulated in the amendment that we propose this evening. I need to be clear about this: as far as I am concerned, our amendment does not and should not open the door to anything else. <BR /> <BR />As with other issues, the public is clearly ahead of us on this; indeed, opinion polls show that there is about 60% support for terminations in cases of fatal foetal abnormality.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. I understand what he says. I understand the concerns that have been expressed in respect of that judgement. I understand that it is the matter of a court case. It will take us where it takes us. Where we are tonight is trying to legislate for fatal foetal abnormality.”
“The amendment has been worded carefully to garner the greatest support possible in the Assembly.”
“I also recognise that, for many, the amendment does not go far enough. There is a wide spectrum of public opinion in Northern Ireland. Some people advocate abortion in the case of sexual crime, whereas there may be many who advocate free access to abortion. The amendment goes nowhere near such proposals. For some, that may be disappointing. I want to say clearly and loudly that I am proposing an amendment in respect of fatal foetal abnormality. Personally — it is a matter of conscience — I cannot see where I would be supporting much beyond that. <BR /> <BR />I want say that I recognise such views, but I do not share them entirely. The amendment is not an attempt to shut down debate, but it is an attempt to ensure that we legislate for one discrete area. As ever, politics is the art of the possible.”
“I believe — I know that many of you here agree — that she should have had that care and her medical intervention in a hospital in Northern Ireland free of charge, close to home, with a clinical team that she could trust, and where she herself would be valued. <BR /> <BR />Not everyone can get that loan at short notice. We have a system that forces the poorest and most vulnerable women to continue a fatal foetal pregnancy despite the associated distress and physical complications that that may cause.”
“<BR /> <BR />There is room and time for a commission, but that will be after the passing of the amendment in order to provide clarity to our clinicians and to provide basic women's healthcare to the citizens of Northern Ireland in the drafting of appropriate guidelines that would give full effect to this amendment. If we are to continue to fail women in Northern Ireland in this area, we are abdicating from our duties as representatives. <BR /> <BR />The traumatic journey to England for many young women is becoming a shame on Northern Ireland. To force women with a fatal foetal pregnancy to look elsewhere for support and help makes that worse. Sarah Ewart was left in debt to pay for a private procedure.”
“As I said to my colleague Mr Lyttle, and to Mr Agnew, should the House this evening allow this to proceed, at Further Consideration Stage I am prepared to carefully assist in the crafting of words that will be as inclusive as they can be to allow this matter to proceed with certainty. <BR /> <BR />I note with dismay the proposals by one party — the DUP — to kick this proposal into the long grass, directing their own Minister at the Department of Health to form a commission to look into the matter. I cannot in all seriousness understand how that would provide any progress on the matter. The Department has already examined the law, it has produced draft guidelines, and the Executive have, at this point, refused to move on it.”
“That is an area that we would certainly be willing to consider. <BR /> <BR />I have heard increasingly in the past few days that some have been saying that the guidelines, if we had them, would do the job. However, a quick look at previous guidelines and the law as it stands would tell anyone otherwise. It is true that, in the past, latitude was permitted to medical professionals. However, political and ideological interference has destroyed any latitude that permitted such interpretations of the law, and it now cannot be undone without the certainty of this amendment. <BR /> <BR />There are those who expressed concern to us about the use of "likely" in the proposed amendment.”
“We felt that that was an important area, and our amendment would provide an opt-out for professionals in such cases if a termination is sought for a fatal foetal pregnancy. Therefore, they will be protected from acting contrary to their beliefs.”
“I readily agree with my colleague about that addition to the amendment. I also say to all Members in the Chamber that my colleague and I are completely open to a discussion on that between now and Further Consideration Stage. This is not about us being prescriptive; this is about us wishing to be inclusive of everyone who has been touched not only by Sarah's story but who wishes to move this issue forward in Northern Ireland. He is absolutely right: the considered medical opinion of two professionals can assure that the condition of the baby is fatal and that the mother can, therefore, access a safe termination in a hospital setting in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />Our guidelines in Northern Ireland also, interestingly, do not permit clinicians to refuse to undertake a procedure on the grounds of conscientious objection.”
“Mr Lunn and I propose in our amendment that we make this a statutory requirement for termination in the case of a fatal foetal abnormality.”
“Freedom of conscience to bring an amendment like this, and to support or not support it, is common among many political parties. My colleague Mr Lunn and I have brought this forward as individual MLAs. We have sought to word it extremely cautiously and strictly, ensuring that it will apply only in cases where a woman is carrying a baby with a fatal foetal abnormality and medical intervention cannot change the outcome. Further to this, as you will see in the proposed amendment, we have sought to introduce into statute safeguards that do not currently exist in Northern Ireland for the limited number of cases where termination is permitted. In cases where termination is permitted in Northern Ireland, current guidelines suggest that it is best practice to obtain the medical opinion of two doctors on the necessity of a termination.”
“We hoped that we would not get asked our opinion on what we were going to do about it. I am pleased that, today, the Northern Ireland Assembly can talk openly about this issue, an issue that is an important development for women's healthcare. It has been a very long road for Sarah. Many other women have been in the same situation, and Members will have received correspondence from women telling those stories. In 2014, the Justice Minister consulted on changes to the law on medical termination of pregnancy. However, so far, the Executive have refused to progress any of this. <BR /> <BR />Abortion and the termination of pregnancy is an issue of conscience for my party, the Alliance Party; that is why this amendment is in the name of me and one of my colleagues and not in the name of our party.”
“Since then, Sarah and her mother, Jane Christie, have been incredibly brave in speaking out. They were not content to suffer in silence. They wanted something better for Sarah, as she faces an uncertain future. They wanted something better for other women in Northern Ireland. They wanted access to healthcare and all the options for women facing fatal foetal abnormalities. That is despite receiving some of the most appalling abuse, both online and in person. I can certainly give testament to that, having seen some of it recently. They have received many unkind and unsympathetic comments, sadly not least of all from a previous Health Minister. <BR /> <BR />Before 2013, few, if any, people dared to speak about this issue in Northern Ireland. It was ignored; it was swept under the carpet.”