Stewart Dickson
East Antrim · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“Thank you, Minister, for your answer. Minister, you will have noted that the Government recently announced a VAT cut for some family expenses for a range of activities over the summer. That is perhaps a change.”
“Many do not know how to apply; others do not even realise that the opportunities exist. If the process itself is a barrier to participation, it is really not open to all.”
“I was born in 1950 in Thorndale House, which was one of the homes that is named in the legislation. I was born to married parents, and Thorndale House was a maternity home. It was where you went to have your baby in 1950 on the Antrim Road. My mum and dad went there, I was born and, a few days later, I left with loving parents.”
“I agree with Mr Brett: amendment No 6 is important because it will deal with persons who refuse to provide information or evidence to the inquiry. Amendment No 8 to clause 20 is a tidying-up amendment that will allow the Committee to make interim reports, which will be of benefit to the inquiry process.”
“That is why I want the inquiry to succeed and why it is vital that it succeeds. That is why it is important for us to see that cruelty in the full glare of a public inquiry. That is why it is important that the scheme goes through without further delay. <BR /> <BR />Finally, I place on record my thanks to the Committee Chair.”
“The Assembly faces stark choices, and agreeing the draft Budget as it stands is not a silver bullet, nor is it sustainable for us to continue in the absence of a Budget. It is vital, therefore, that we break the cycle of crisis and collapse that has been destroying our public finances.”
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“I would like to pay tribute to the way in which that programme, which does not always get plaudits, handled Sarah Ewart's story.”
“When Sarah asked about her options, including termination, little could be said to her for fear of falling foul of current legislation. Indeed, one consultant abruptly declared, "I'm not going to prison for anyone". <BR /> <BR />Sarah had to turn elsewhere for healthcare advice. She had to face both the understandable mental and physical trauma of continuing the pregnancy. She sought a termination in London after taking advice outside Northern Ireland. This was at her own cost — a cost of some £2,100. Add to that the ordeal of travelling to an unfamiliar clinic far from home. No one who heard on the Stephen Nolan programme the heartbreaking story that Sarah related to him and his listeners and viewers could have anything but a heart for what happened to her.”
“There are those who will say that the amendment lacks consultation. I think that I heard someone quote me earlier on that. However, I believe that it has been adequately consulted on. It has been consulted on by the Department, and I believe that, in those circumstances, there has been adequate consultation. <BR /> <BR />In starting, I want to reflect, Mr Speaker, on a very personal story — the story that has prompted us to this point today. That is the story of Sarah Ewart. In 2013, Sarah was recently married and looking forward to having her first child. She then received the heartbreaking news that her baby had a fatal foetal abnormality (FFA) and would not survive outside the womb. At that time, an atmosphere of fear was pervading the health service, as it still does today.”
“I appreciate being given the time and the opportunity to propose amendment No 61. The amendment seeks action on the issue of fatal foetal abnormality. <BR /> <BR />Today, I am asking Members to take a decision based on this debate and on how all the circumstances and history preceding it have influenced their conscience. Sadly, there are those who will make their decision owing to the influence of party Whips rather than through free expression of their conscience. I have to say that I find that regrettable. Nonetheless, I implore any Members whose conscience guides them to support this very limited change to the law to follow me and colleagues through the Lobby to support the amendment.”
“I am aware of an incident in my constituency, which I do not wish to expand on, in which healthcare workers were attacked — not for any offensive reason, but because of the state of the client with whom they had to work. It would not be appropriate to use this type of legislation for that, and we need to ensure that we can discern all the elements. I am content to support all the items that have been raised and commented on by the Minister.”
“Without going over the top, I genuinely have to say, for the record, that I believe that the Chair and the Minister have clearly demonstrated where the Assembly and legislation like this could and should be going. Each of the items is vital, and there is everything from animal welfare to revenge pornography and the protection of workers in very vulnerable situations. I accept that, with regard to the issue of vulnerable workers in the health system, we have seen security staff having to be employed in hospitals and A&Es. We also need to address the important issue of lone healthcare workers who maybe go to a place they have never been before, perhaps late at night, and meet people with difficulties.”
“Sitting over all of that is a Minister who is genuinely trying to deliver change and a fairer, more effective and more modern justice system.”
“In supporting the Minister, I will be brief. There is some value at this stage in commending the Chair of the Committee for the leadership that he has given, particularly with the "Justice in a Digital Age" conference, which the Committee organised and for which he was the catalyst. That has opened up for us, the wider public and the Department of Justice, as we narrow it down in today's debate, the importance of the issue. <BR /> <BR />The other side of that coin is the incredible work that officials in the Department do on a very wide range of issues. In this group, we are looking at everything from animal welfare to revenge pornography to the protection of blue-light workers. Those are very diverse areas of work, all of which require intensive research and a great deal of effort from officials.”
“I will be incredibly brief. I simply want to indicate my support for what the Minister said. I will support and oppose the amendments in accordance with the Minister's recommendations to the House.”
“I am happy to support the Minister in the proposals that are made today.”
“Again, I will be brief. I support the Minister in the actions that he has taken. I commend, once again, officials, particularly those in the Department, for the very complex work that they undertook. I also acknowledge the work of Mr McGlone in respect of these matters. Nevertheless, while supporting the Minister, I still have concerns about the age of young shooters; my personal preference would be to see it being older rather than younger. <BR /> <BR />With regard to cost recovery, given all the pressures on budgets, particularly police budgets — much of the time in respect of licensing is carried out by the PSNI — it is important that we give serious consideration to how we can maximise the recovery of costs for what is a sport for many and vermin control and farming issues for others.”
“There is a genuine need in any future Programme for Government to require not just that the Department of Justice delivers at the front end but that, much more importantly, the Health Department delivers at what is, essentially, not the back end but the most important element of this.”
“Continuing, Minister, on the theme of how you deal with drug and alcohol courts in particular and delivering services quickly, it is all about the joined-up nature of it. While I listened with great interest to the experience in New York, it seems that, in other parts of the United States — I have some experience of this — the need for swift justice and the need to assist the person with the issue quickly are important and are recognised. However, if the services that the person is being sent to get are not there, this is just an exercise in sweeping the problem under the carpet. The situation in many states in the United States is no different from here in that mental health and alcohol and drug rehabilitation services are stretched, sometimes more stretched than ours.”
“I have absolutely no doubt that our current Minister is innovative, forward-thinking and very content to look at, examine and, where appropriate, bring forward many of those alternative ways to deal with the criminal and civil justice systems through innovation and rehabilitation. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the Department's amendments, as well as their intention, which is to tidy up the Bill, and the response to comments that were made by the Committee, which has helped us to get on with the job of reforming this important part of our justice system. I do not believe that anything should be lost in today's debate in commending the work of the Committee, the Department and the Minister, who is delivering justice for everyone.”
“<BR /> <BR />Moving on to the amendments that were proposed but not moved by the Chair of the Committee for Justice, I welcome the Minister's openness in pursuing, as ever, innovative means of rehabilitation in the justice system. I welcome the comments that Members brought back from the visit that they made to look at those, but it is not just in the criminal justice sector where there are innovative ways to improve and streamline justice. Coming as I do from a background in employment law, I think it is important that alternative dispute resolution is available across the spectrum. Obviously, on the civil side, I think that there are immense savings to be made through those areas of innovation.”
“<BR /> <BR />The remaining Sinn Féin amendments are, again in my opinion, unnecessary, although, again, I understand the concern regarding dependants of claimants who may have benefits deducted or assets seized. There is also provision to avoid such conflicts of interest. For one, benefits may be deducted in the first instance only if the claimant directly agrees, as set out in clause 4. In the end, the court already needs to consider the ability of the debtor to continue their lives and not to be disproportionately affected by deductions, which, as the Chair stated, are maximised at 15%. I would very much expect dependants to be considered an unavoidable living expense.”
“I welcome the Minister's announcement that the DOJ intends to bring forward provision to also allow information sharing with HMRC. <BR /> <BR />I will move on to the amendments that have been proposed by Mr McCartney and Sinn Féin. There is a great deal of interest in them. Indeed, at first glance, they might appear to be perfectly sensible. However, in reality, I do not believe they are applicable to the Bill. I understand the Members' concerns about outsourcing collection, but I genuinely do not believe that, as the Minister stated, the employment to do so would be by anybody other than civil servants. I think the Bill, in designating the Civil Service and Department to be collection officers, makes that very clear. Therefore, I do not think that it is necessary to make the changes that are proposed in amendment Nos 2 and 3.”
“In addition, the aim of the police being given the power to arrest someone who has failed to attend a default hearing is to improve attendance rates at such hearings, and amendment No 19 will help ensure the recovery of costs of hearings. We have heard some of the figures in the Chamber today. In economically difficult times, it is only appropriate that the Department recovers the cost of such administration, whether that be a small amount or a large amount, because it all adds up. <BR /> <BR />Information sharing is another area that was referred to this morning. I believe that it will be greatly facilitated by the passage of the Bill, particularly between DSD and collection officers. That is the most appropriate means of collection, whether officials can ascertain the information.”
“As we come to the end of the mandate, it is vital that we place on record a word of sincere thanks to Committee officials and departmental officials for the work that they have done. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 7 ensures that the seizure of property must make a return to meet the debts of an individual. That is a sensible approach. I particularly welcome amendment No 27, which requires the court to consider whether the seizure of a person's vehicle may disproportionately impact upon the debtor's ability to earn a living. There is not much point in taking away your car, van or some other vehicle, if it is your only means of doing your work. The justice system must always look forwards to rehabilitating offenders. Making it more difficult for debtors to earn a living would clearly be counterproductive, so that is a welcome change.”
“<BR /> <BR />Most of the amendments in group 1 are of a technical nature and seek to tidy up the Bill in certain areas. So I do not think that it is necessary to talk for particularly long about this group, as others have said. Many of the amendments are in direct response to the consultation with the Committee and from the very good communications and working relationships that, as I have said, existed between the Committee and the departmental officials. Again, I place on record my thanks to our Committee officials who worked tirelessly and very long hours to help us in the production of reports and the procurement of witnesses. They do so in all the activities that they undertake, not only those in respect of this Bill.”
“I thank the Minister for bringing forward this legislation and for the way in which he and departmental officials worked with the Committee to do that, and I place on record my thanks to the Chair of the Committee and my Committee colleagues for the way in which we have worked in respect of this matter. These are very complex and difficult areas of the law for each and every one of us to work with, and we have taken a very businesslike approach to it. As others have said, and I concur, the Chair has been innovative in the way in which we have done our business. That was welcome; indeed, it is potentially a model for other Committees to look at for how they do business. It may well be an important legacy that the Chair leaves to the Assembly in respect of these matters.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. With the First Minister leaning towards out of the EU, is it likely that you will be the only Enterprise Minister in the United Kingdom who is anti-EU and will lead the charge against industry and business in Northern Ireland?”
“Thank you, Minister, for your answers thus far with regard to BT. I declare a personal interest in that BT totally and utterly failed me in my service for nearly two months. As a result of that, I discovered that BT has set aside only 60% of the capacity of the green cabinets that it has installed to deliver its so-called super-fast broadband. So, in any one area, not everyone, even if they wished to purchase super-fast broadband, can have it. Is the Minister satisfied that 60% capacity per cabinet is a reasonable commercial decision by BT?”
“I encourage the Assembly to embrace that change.”
“I respect the mandate of the Chamber and that I failed to gain even a vote in that debate, but what cannot be denied is that the debate took place and that our voice was heard in it and by the public outside. Certainly, it is what we want. For me, it is all about delivering equality and fairness in the Assembly; it is all about giving space to every voice in the community that can deliver a political mandate to sit in the Chamber. Perhaps the junior Minister wants to reflect on the inequalities that her party seems to have delivered in one constituency in the selection of its candidates for Fermanagh and South Tyrone. <BR /> <BR />On that point, I will leave the debate. I predict the outcome as a further defeat for the amendment. Nevertheless, it reflects, in my view, the failure of the Assembly to embrace change.”
“However, there are times when it is important for us as a political party to step up to the plate for ourselves and say, "This is what we in the Alliance Party believe is important to deliver for the electorate." I understand Mr Lyons's need to stick to his agreement with Sinn Féin, but, clearly, he and his colleague Mr Frew have indicated very strong support for the change and reduction in numbers, and I think that, in that respect, they have clearly failed in their Fresh Start Agreement. For me and my party, and for many people out there, that is and should be a matter of regret. <BR /> <BR />I listened carefully to the words of the junior Minister and her reference to debates in the Chamber and also to the so-called Fresh Start Agreement.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is important that we balance the arguments. Others have made reference to the skills of the Alliance Party in attempting to build consensus. Despite the type of debate that we have had today, that is exactly where the Alliance Party sits in respect of this matter. We are trying to build that consensus. We did not achieve that through all the talks and events that have taken place and which have brought us to where we are today in respect of this agreement between Sinn Féin and the DUP.”
“As I intimated, Mr Lyons perhaps is not au fait with all of the discussions that have taken place over an extremely long period. If he checks the records of Fresh Start, Stormont House and many of the discussions and meetings that have taken place, which Mr Maginness has made reference to, he will see an acknowledgement by the Alliance Party of a need to provide not only inclusivity in this place but effective and efficient government. That is an argument that my party has long made here and in all of those meetings that have taken place outside the Chamber. <BR /> <BR />I note Mr Allen's comments regarding the Ulster Unionist Party's support for the reduction but I do not understand why, like others, it cannot do it today. Perhaps that is the attitude of a party that seems to have checked out of this place quite some time ago.”
“There are those who are reluctant to face change, and there are those of us who wish to eagerly stride forward and take ourselves into that area of change. While I certainly have respect and understanding for the journey that the SDLP has made, together with many of us in the Chamber, I cannot accept that we must always be looking backwards. The time has come for us not to be afraid of change, to grasp it and to grasp it now. I assure him and those who thought that our amendment may not be well intentioned — I assure every Member — that it is well intended; it is intended to deliver good government for all citizens in Northern Ireland.”
“However, I throw the challenge back to him. How better to re-engage with that alienated public than by us taking a bold and strident initiative to reduce the numbers in this place and to provide for an effective connection with those people who elect us and expect us to do a job for them? <BR /> <BR />I have a great deal of time and respect for the comments of Mr Maginness, and I wholeheartedly accept and respect the journey that he and his party and, indeed, many of us in the Chamber — I ask him to include the Alliance Party in that — have taken. We all have made that journey to peace together. I respect the comments that he made about his caution in respect of these changes but, equally, I say to Mr Maginness that change is difficult and that perhaps the time has come for us to face up to that change.”
“It seems to me that the DUP wants to support the amendment that we are proposing but cannot because it is tied to its so-called Fresh Start Agreement with Sinn Féin. My colleague has already described the words that have been used as a "fig leaf". I think that that perhaps is exactly what the DUP is attempting to achieve for itself today. On one hand, it is trying to compliment us for our move — a genuine move — to try to provide for better government in this place but, at the same time, it has to stick with the agreement that it has made with Sinn Féin. I simply cannot understand what will change between now and 2021. <BR /> <BR />Mr Maskey made reference to the fact that much of the public feel alienated from this place and many of the people who act as representatives in it. I do not disagree with him in any way.”
“It seems to me that that is a difficult argument for the DUP and Mr Frew's colleague Mr Lyons, who was not even an MLA when much of these discussions started, to make.”
“We have had an interesting debate this morning on the matter. Indeed, on occasion, it has been somewhat jovial, but it is a serious matter, and I think a serious response is therefore required to the comments that have been made. <BR /> <BR />This is not a political stunt, and it is not about grabbing headlines. This is genuinely about trying to deliver efficient and effective government for all the citizens in Northern Ireland. If we do not start in this place, I think it will be very difficult for us to start anywhere else. <BR /> <BR />First, I will comment on the words of Mr Frew. I will describe them as mañana politics. He is quite happy for the change to take place but not now.”
“I invite the Member to expand for us his concerns about jeopardising the Fresh Start Agreement. Surely any reasonable person would understand and accept that a saving of some £11 million to the public purse is something that we should be moving towards as quickly as possible. There does not seem to be any justification for not supporting the amendment in respect of a reduction in numbers from six to five Members in constituencies. It is a simple matter of an instruction to the electoral authorities that that is the number of Members that the Assembly wishes to return to the next mandate. <BR /> <BR />I also ask Mr Frew to explain why he would consider using the word "rejoicing" in delaying until the mandate beyond the next one for these changes to take place. It does not seem to be a matter for rejoicing but a matter for regret.”
“The Bill is a step forward, although I think that I have to share some of the concerns voiced by the Housing Rights Service to the Committee regarding the relatively wide scope of incidences in which disclosure could be made. The Alliance Party is generally content to support the Bill at this Stage. We look forward to its coming back. <BR /> <BR />I apologise to the House and the Minister because I have another meeting to attend and will not be able to remain for the remainder of the debate.”
“I note with interest that DSD intends to work with councils to provide information, where possible. However, without meaningful regeneration powers, the role of local government is rather limited. It is disappointing that the Department decided to drop the entirety of the Regeneration Bill. Most of this information will originate from DFP, but, at Committee Stage, it was suggested that utilising the resources of Land Registry could provide considerable benefits with regard to information collected. We were told that DSD would explore that option, so perhaps today the Minister could provide us with further information on whether that may be a viable way forward and whether he would require further legislation in that respect. <BR /> <BR />As others said, antisocial behaviour is a very difficult issue and is a scourge on many communities.”
“I too support the Bill and, indeed, welcome it back to the House. As Members have heard, it is a short but important piece of legislation. I note that most of the information-sharing has been limited to the Housing Executive. Although, on principle, that does not present me with concerns, it is important that there are synergies between the relevant parties and the property users to ensure that those who need, and should have, access to such information can obtain it in an easy, timely and efficient manner. That includes working effectively with housing associations and local government, which is, unfortunately, often forgotten in a top-down process. The Bill will also create a duty to do so.”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. Does he agree that he, his Department and the Assembly need to send out a very clear message that Northern Ireland is better in Europe and that the development of programmes such as InterTradeIreland depend on us remaining in Europe? Will he also tell the House what contingency plans he has should the UK Government decide to withdraw from the European Union?”
“Thank you, Minister, for your statement. Minister, you may not have heard the statement made yesterday by Mr Howard Hastings, who I think most of us will agree is an expert on tourism in Northern Ireland. How do you propose to assuage his concerns and the concerns of other experts in tourism in Northern Ireland that not enough is being done to market Northern Ireland and that there is a disproportion in the way that funds are allocated to deliver that marketing of Northern Ireland? Very briefly, you made reference to the Rugby World Cup and other events and also to food and drink. Will the Minister agree that the time is right now to alter our licensing laws to make those events more friendly and amenable to that legislation as well?”
“Thank you, Minister, for the answers that you have given to us. Minister, there are those who might say in the light of and in the wake of the recent report that, since the devolution of policing and justice, prison reform has not worked or has been particularly slow. What assurance can you give the House that prison reform is on track and that you and your Department can deliver a prison service that is fit for today and for the future?”
“Lord Morrow, thank you for taking on the role of Social Development Minister at this late stage in the mandate. You are very welcome to that role. <BR /> <BR />Minister, in respect of the funding of housing initiatives, can you assure the House that you will not go down the road of your Tory colleagues in the sale of housing association property and that Northern Ireland will be spared that Tory initiative, which must be debated in the current round of your discussions with colleagues, to ensure that housing association stock in Northern Ireland will be maintained in the public sector and allowed to grow in the public sector?”
“I thank the junior Minister for the answers that she has brought to us so far. Junior Minister, you referred to the options paper for non-institutional abuse: when will that be presented to the Executive? Have you scoped out any costs involved in delivering that aspect of any future inquiry?”
“I thank the deputy First Minister for his statement to the House. Deputy First Minister, I refer you to paragraphs 9 to 12, which deal with EU funding opportunities. The Prime Minister announced that there will be a referendum on whether this part of the United Kingdom, as well as the rest of it, should withdraw from the European Union. I am an avowed supporter of the EU and think that the United Kingdom is best in the EU. What action will the North/South Ministerial Council take to ensure that that message gets across and that the benefits of EU membership continue, North and South?”
“Minister, I would like to thank you for your statement to the House today, which I am sure, given the other business today, may not receive the amount of notice that it should. Nevertheless, you have brought to the attention of the House a highly important notice about cross-border cooperation. Minister, given the level of cross-border cooperation that you have with the authorities in the Republic of Ireland, particularly on tackling issues such as fuel fraud and paramilitarism, which is now on the agenda, will you outline for the House your concerns about any withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the EU and how it would affect those matters?”
“You worked that one out. <BR /> <BR />Like others in the Chamber, we are happy to support this and the element of parity that it has for the protection of pensions. Also like others, we wish those who remain in the Building this evening the compliments of the season. To those who will not be returning after the recess, either in the early new year or like my colleague Mr McCarthy, who will actually be with us to the end of the mandate, I say farewell.”
“I note that the debate this evening is on occupational pensions. On that basis at least, I presume that I do not have to declare an interest, in that I became eligible for state pension today.”
“I understand the difference in what the Minister says. In reality, however, new property connections are paid for by developers because they have to connect water to the property before they can sell it. Surely, the Department understands that it is rather splitting hairs to say that the pipe is connection charges and not providing the meter on top is additional to that. It is a complete installation of water supply to the property. It seems to me that the Department could easily recover the total cost. After all, it is not unreasonable that total cost recovery should be looked at in a great deal of instances by Departments. At the very least, we should consider the cost of the recovery of installation of meters.”
“I am just interested. Mr Lyttle referred to the installation of meters, and others have referred to the cost of that. I have already raised the issue of why we should not be making a full cost recovery in respect of the installation of meters, but Mr Lyttle, as a member of the Committee, might know this, or perhaps even the Minister might be able to comment. The official reason given for the installation of meters by the Department in 2007 was:”
“It will future-proof the Assembly when it comes to the time when it will have to make the decision and can no longer bury its head in the sand over where additional funds come from to deliver the healthcare, education and, for many people, welfare in Northern Ireland without making a further contribution beyond rates here. I am somewhat confused about the fact that there is already a charge in place, but it seems to be that sufficient funds are not being charged.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Surely the reality of the installation of meters gives testament to the failure of the party that is proposing these changes to follow through with the implementation of water charges. The Minister stated that the saving was some £45 per household, yet NI Water, on its website, indicates that it charges £255 per 30 household applications. That is £8·50 per household. The reality is this: why is there not full cost recovery in respect of the installation of meters? Why is the Department wasting our money in respect of this? Why is the Department not imposing full cost recovery per household? It would add the sum of £45 less £8·50 to each household when a house is purchased. That seems to me to be an inconsiderable sum of money in comparison with the cost of purchasing the house.”