Steven Agnew
North Down · Green Party · Northern Ireland
“We need an independent, open and transparent process for investigating Ministers. I have always failed to understand the opposition to that from some in the House. Given recent events, if the Assembly was to oppose it again today, there would be public anger.”
“This process would involve one commissioner and one independent investigation, rather than a political investigation that, I have no doubt, some at the time called a witch-hunt, as is often said when people are defending their Minister.”
“I am delighted to make a winding-up speech on this debate, which has been the first-ever sole Green Party private Member's motion. Thanks to the election of my colleague, Clare Bailey, we have two Green MLAs, which has increased our ability to use the Assembly privileges to put such suggestions forward.”
“I absolutely agree, Mr Beggs. <BR /> <BR />Another point I will make is about the idea of the distinction between the Minister and the Department. When I was drafting my private Member's Bill, I asked, "Should that say 'Minister' or 'Department'?". The legal advice that I was given was that they are one and the same.”
“If an MLA is alleged to have breached the code, a member of the public can write to the standards commissioner and have their complaint investigated in an independent manner. The result of any investigation is published and can, if required, lead to a debate in the Assembly so that all the issues can be aired.”
“I would argue that it serves neither the Minister nor the public well that we do not have such a process. An individual who seeks to complain will be left frustrated if they feel that their concerns are ignored by those in office, who are supposed to act on their behalf.”
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“There has been a lack of openness, transparency and accountability, and this measure is about introducing transparency, accountability and openness. There are other measures needed. This is but one measure, and transparency around political donations is another. My colleague Clare Bailey raised this today in relation to the RHI inquiry, but, across the board, we need to find out the relationship between those who fund the parties and the decisions that those parties make. <BR /> <BR />This is a modest proposal today. I welcome the support that there seems to be from around the House. I compel Members — sorry, I wish could compel Members. I urge Members to give it their full support and thank them for their contributions.”
“I absolutely agree, Mr Beggs. <BR /> <BR />Another point I will make is about the idea of the distinction between the Minister and the Department. When I was drafting my private Member's Bill, I asked, "Should that say 'Minister' or 'Department'?". The legal advice that I was given was that they are one and the same. The same should be true of a SpAd. The Minister, the SpAd, the Department — they are one entity. The Minister is responsible, and that is where the buck should stop. <BR /> <BR />Mr Ford highlighted the work that the Greens and the Alliance have been doing on openness and transparency in relation not just to this matter but to party donations. I deliberately left that point to the end, because I think that there is no better time to make these points. There is public distaste about the record of this Executive.”
“Someone has to be accountable for them, and I would argue that the Minister, as their employer, should be accountable.”
“Regardless of what the Assembly decides to do thereafter, it is for ever on public record that a Member has been found to have breached the code of conduct. We should expect the same standards of Ministers. They certainly have the privileges, and the two must go hand in hand. <BR /> <BR />In an intervention, Mr Beggs raised the issue of SpAds. It is a key question. Again, when I was a member of the Standards and Privileges Committee, we reviewed the code of conduct and looked at the issue of Members' staff. We said that Members were responsible for the actions of their staff, and the same standard should apply to Ministers and their SpAds. I see Ms Palmer nodding her head. We have seen the damage that the actions of SpAds can do.”
“This process would involve one commissioner and one independent investigation, rather than a political investigation that, I have no doubt, some at the time called a witch-hunt, as is often said when people are defending their Minister. We would have a much more streamlined process and take it out of the political debate and trial by media that I mentioned earlier. The claim that it would be more bureaucratic is spurious. <BR /> <BR />I give credit to Doug Beattie for the quote of the day: "more standards and less privilege". I could not agree more, particularly when we look at the issue of Ministers. We have not seen the standards that people expect. I used to be on the Standards and Privileges Committee. When MLAs breach standards, they are investigated and are held to those standards by the commissioner through an independent finding.”
“When you use a term such as "mischief-making", it is kind of saying, "We object, but we have no reason to, so instead we throw a form of insult". In a previous debate, Mr Alex Attwood referred to fog being created, and this was a smokescreen. The DUP does not have good reason for opposing the motion. I was accused of mischief-making, and that is supposed to suffice. <BR /> <BR />The idea that this would somehow lead to greater bureaucracy stands in contrast to the evidence. Look at where Ministers have been complained about in the past. In the absence of a process, we had the Red Sky issue. We had a Committee inquiry into that involving 11 Committee members, all the Committee staff and numerous meetings and calling of witnesses.”
“He took the time, he was helpful and he responded to all my questions and queries. <BR /> <BR />Mr Attwood, of course, has a different take on the narrative of Sinn Féin and very much sees it as an opportunist position heading into the election. I am not going to make judgement. I welcome the support today. That support is on public record. Should I be re-elected to the House and should we get the institutions back up and running, I will bring the issue back and will look for the continuing support of Sinn Féin for legislation and actual change. I give Mr Attwood — he apologised for having to leave — the commitment that I certainly will hold Sinn Féin to its commitment of support. <BR /> <BR />Others have mentioned the position of Pam Cameron. I find it bizarre.”
“One of the issues that came up was Sinn Féin's change of position and the differing narratives of Mr McGuigan and Mr Attwood. Mr McGuigan highlighted recent issues and drew attention to decisions of the Communities Minister that, I take from his contribution, he would call into question if there were a process for making a formal complaint against Ministers. He added that the conversations that I have had with the deputy First Minister had influenced Sinn Féin's position. I wish to take him at face value on that, because I would love to go to the electorate in North Down and say, "I can change Sinn Féin's policy. Vote for me", but it might be an over-claim. In all seriousness, I valued the input of the deputy First Minister on the issue. I wish him good health and a full recovery.”
“I think it is right that we conclude this short Assembly term by calling into question how we hold Ministers to account. The least we can do, on the other side of this election, is improve our accountability processes and take action to restore some public confidence, although this one measure will fall somewhat short of undoing the tremendous damage that has been done, whether it be through RHI, the lack of a Budget or the collapse of the Assembly itself. <BR /> <BR />I thank Members for contributing to the debate, particularly those who supported the motion.”
“I am delighted to make a winding-up speech on this debate, which has been the first-ever sole Green Party private Member's motion. Thanks to the election of my colleague, Clare Bailey, we have two Green MLAs, which has increased our ability to use the Assembly privileges to put such suggestions forward. As a result, Mr Speaker, as you know well from the many letters I have written to you in my continual lobbying, I think all Members should be represented on the Business Committee. I am delighted that is one of the areas of progress we have been able to make in the short life of this Assembly. <BR /> <BR />Mr Ford made reference to the "lucky dip", and how I was quite lucky to get this timing to bring forward the last private Member's motion. Whilst the timing was luck, I assure you that the selection of the motion was no accident.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. He asked why anyone would oppose this, and we have just heard Mrs Cameron say that it would be more bureaucratic. Does he think that it would be more bureaucratic than a public inquiry or more bureaucratic than, say, a Committee investigation into Red Sky?”
“<BR /> <BR />Unfortunately, due to the illness and now retirement of the deputy First Minister, we did not get to conclude our conversations, and I wait to hear whether Sinn Féin will support my proposal today. Equally, while I was told that my meeting was with Mr McGuinness in his capacity as deputy First Minister and with the consent of the First Minister, I do not yet know the views of the DUP and whether they have changed since October, when it and Sinn Féin opposed this proposal. <BR /> <BR />I maintain that we need an open, transparent and accountable Government. As I said, this is the last decision of this Assembly. Let us not waste it. Let us begin the process of restoring some confidence in politics in the eyes of our public.”
“He also asked, quite legitimately, what sanctions would be in place should a Minister be found to have breached the code of conduct. <BR /> <BR />As I mentioned, the Commissioner for Standards supports this. When we debated it back in October, in relation to an amendment that I tabled to a motion, all the non-Executive parties supported it. I put that to the deputy First Minister in writing. There are a number of options available for sanctions similar to those for breaches of the Members' code of conduct. A Minister could be required to apologise. They could be censured by the Assembly, suspended or, in the most extreme cases, expelled from their role as Minister.”
“Arlene Foster, of course, denied that the code was breached. We have never concluded the issue because there was no process through which to do so. <BR /> <BR />I raised this issue through questions for oral answer a number of times since May. On each occasion, by chance it was the deputy First Minister who answered, and he seemed to have some sympathy with the proposal. I took the opportunity that he offered to meet with him to discuss the matter, and he confirmed that it was a meeting with the joint office. Again, the deputy First Minister seemed sympathetic to my proposals. One of his concerns was that I seemed to be the only one pushing for this; whilst he could see the argument, he did not feel that there was enough of a drive to support the proposal.”
“Whilst we may disagree on the various issues — indeed, we had a six-hour debate about them yesterday — I do not think that any of us would disagree that there has to be a more dignified way of managing such complaints. The processes, in my view, are currently lacking. <BR /> <BR />For another example, I go back to 2011, when I accused the then Enterprise, Trade and Investment Minister, Arlene Foster, of breaching the code by failing to declare that her husband owned land in an area that she licensed for fracking. Interestingly, she argued that it was not her who licensed the land; it was her Department. To this day, I maintain that she was in breach of 1.5 (ix) of the code of conduct, which provides that any Minister must:”
“I would argue that it serves neither the Minister nor the public well that we do not have such a process. An individual who seeks to complain will be left frustrated if they feel that their concerns are ignored by those in office, who are supposed to act on their behalf. Having written to a party leader, an individual may feel that that leader is acting in the interests of their party colleague rather than in the interests of good governance. <BR /> <BR />Equally, Ministers who face allegations will most likely hear them debated through the press in what I have referred to as "trial by media". The press have a job — holding Ministers to account — and have shown that they are well capable of doing it. Nonetheless, the recent RHI debacle has highlighted the need for a better process.”
“They were deemed inadmissible because his current powers do not allow him to investigate alleged breaches of the ministerial code of conduct or alleged breaches in which an MLA is deemed to be acting solely in their role as Minister. I am pleased that the commissioner has confirmed to me his support for an expansion of his role so that he can investigate alleged breaches of the ministerial code of conduct.”
“If an MLA is alleged to have breached the code, a member of the public can write to the standards commissioner and have their complaint investigated in an independent manner. The result of any investigation is published and can, if required, lead to a debate in the Assembly so that all the issues can be aired. The process is open, transparent and just. No such process exists for Ministers. If a member of the public wishes to complain about a Minister, the only avenue open to them is to write to the party leader. As we have seen on many occasions in Northern Ireland politics, leaders protect their Ministers; indeed, when the complaint is about the leader, the leader protects herself. <BR /> <BR />In 2014-15, the majority of the complaints received by the Commissioner for Standards were against Ministers.”
“We need an independent, open and transparent process for investigating Ministers. I have always failed to understand the opposition to that from some in the House. Given recent events, if the Assembly was to oppose it again today, there would be public anger. We have institutions that are at the point of collapse because we have had, by necessity, trial by media of the former First Minister. It was by necessity because there was no formal process for the allegations against the then First Minister to be heard. This will be the last decision made by this Assembly. I call on Members not to waste the opportunity to send a clear signal on the standards of accountability that we expect of the next Executive. <BR /> <BR />MLAs are rightly expected to adhere to the Assembly code of conduct: the Green Party asks no more and no less of Ministers.”
“I take your point but at no point did I say that it should be within that three-week window. Regardless of whether we get through the three weeks and these institutions are up and running, we still need to have this. As you pointed out, there are issues such as victims, for example, which have not been solved since 1998. If it takes a year, that is very little time in comparison.”
“I will. People are looking at Stormont and thinking, "I could do better. We could do better". I agree with them. Let us give them the chance.”
“I agree with the Member. I think that it enshrines sectarianism, and we need to move on from it. I suspect that we would disagree on how we would do that. I would, however, like to disagree with the Member in a constitutional convention that includes our citizens and come to a conclusion that gets the endorsement of the people of Northern Ireland, as the Good Friday Agreement did. <BR /> <BR />To finish, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker, I, too, like everyone else, once again, wish you well. People are looking at Stormont at the minute and thinking —”
“— I think that we will continue to have problems. I will give way.”
“We are, I believe, in a better place, but, at times, when I still hear the language of two communities, I feel that we live in a very diverse Northern Ireland. That is not the language of today; that is the language of 20 years ago. Whilst we still have parties that say, "We represent the whole of Northern Ireland", yet seek their vote from one section of Northern Ireland —”
“Those negotiations should, however, be open and transparent and engage our citizens. Negotiations should not be kept from citizens until we present some form of agreement, and they have no say on whether it is the agreement that they wanted. They will elect their political parties and be told, "We represented you in those negotiations". We cannot see that. There is no transparency, and I do not think that it is enough. <BR /> <BR />There are a number of issues, and Stephen Farry and David Ford highlighted some that I highlighted with community designation and the petition of concern. Even some of the language that is used has shown us that we may be 20 years on, but, at times, it can feel as though we are no further on. I do not believe that.”
“I see it as a preventative measure because we have had continual crises. Every time you list them — the Hart talks, the Haass talks, Stormont House, Hillsborough or St Andrews — you wonder whether you have left one out because there have been so many. I have been in full-time politics only since 2007, and I counted that the current crisis was my fourth. I just rolled my eyes and thought, "Another one". We need something to change. We cannot go on like this. For me, it is not direct rule at the other side of the election or some form of joint government; as a number of people have said, it is likely to be negotiations.”
“I thank the Member. They went back to the people, and the people gave a different answer. People are entitled to change their mind and have done so. The point is that Ireland, through various referenda, has shown itself to be a country that supports its position in Europe. In the UK, where people were told, "We sorted that issue in 1975. I do not care if you were born since then, you do not get another say. We have changed it. The EU is good — like it". I support the EU but I do not support that disengagement. It is no wonder that we talk about Europe as if it is separate from us rather than our being part of it and it happened to us rather than being something we are part of. Indeed, our MEPs and Ministers helped to shape that. <BR /> <BR />We need something that is more participative in our democracy.”
“It is what went wrong with the UK in relation to the European Union, whereas the Republic of Ireland, where there were changes to what it signed up to, went back to referendum, whether Lisbon, Maastricht or whatever.”
“Mike Nesbitt made the point that he did not want to see a constitutional convention and our going back to the people after the election. The 90 MLAs should come back and get on with the job. I suppose that it is a fundamental difference between representative democracy, whereby we go to the electorate and say, "Elect us and we will reflect your views", and a participative democracy, which is a continual engagement whereby we continually seek the views of the electorate. It is not enough to go once every five years for a mandate; it has to be a continuing dialogue. The recent referendum on Europe is an example, and Gerry Kelly made the point that the people spoke 20 years ago. People deserve more engagement than that.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. He says that the people have spoken, but I point out that that was almost 20 years ago. On the issue of a border poll, for example, would he be content that it be changed to every 20 years? I suspect that he would not see that as being frequent enough.”
“The current constitutional crisis presents us with an opportunity for change, and we should not waste it.”
“Ultimately, the Republic of Ireland was able to tackle, for example, what was sometimes seen as the politically divisive issue of equal marriage. It was able to resolve that in a dignified way and put it to a public vote, with the result — unsurprising to me but perhaps more surprising to those looking in from the outside — that so-called Catholic Ireland supports equality for the LGBT community. I believe that the people of Northern Ireland do also. <BR /> <BR />It is my view that we can bring forward proposals, through engagement with the public, to bring these institutions up to what we expect in the current context. The process should be open and transparent, as it was in the Republic, and that contrasts with dodgy deals such as Fresh Start.”
“Again, it does not have to be about bringing something back but looking forward to how we engage citizens on a continual basis and make sure that the people's agreement is exactly that, an agreement for the people, so that they have a continued stake in decision-making. <BR /> <BR />In the model that works, we have a template in the Irish Convention on the Constitution. Unlike Northern Ireland, the Irish constitution cannot be changed without the citizens' consent. That is what I would like to see here. I can honestly say that the Irish Convention on the Constitution, which I was very privileged to be a part of, was one of the best pieces of deliberative democracy that I have ever seen. It was genuinely something to see true engagement between politicians and citizens and see people have a say that made a difference.”
“If 1998 started the normalisation of politics in Northern Ireland, this is an essential part of continuing that normalisation. There seems to be an increasing degree of support for voluntary coalition. These are the types of things that we can put to the electorate, engage with them, seek their views and include them in the process. <BR /> <BR />There are other issues that many have highlighted as remaining unresolved from the Good Friday Agreement; Irish language legislation is an obvious one. It has never been more important that we discuss the issue of a bill of rights in the light of a possible exit from Europe. As well as that, there is the Civic Forum.”
“When we bring the public in, we stop having the fears that all parties have about watching their vote, watching their back and watching what their rival parties will do. Ultimately, at the end of any process, there should be a referendum; so you let the people decide. In that, cynically or otherwise, you have political cover. <BR /> <BR />What issues could we address? My party would like to start with the community designation that enshrines sectarian division in our institutions and, tied to that, the petition of concern that has led us to some of the crises and continues to frustrate progress in the Assembly. I also believe that, as part of a new, or at least updated, constitution for Northern Ireland, we need to enshrine transparency of political donations.”
“I was going to say Seamus Mallon, so I am glad that I did not. We talk about the ugly scaffolding of the Good Friday Agreement, and there is no doubt that it was of its time and of its context. It was about getting peace on the road, but I hope that we are some way down that road now. It is time to look again at the ugly scaffolding to see whether we can it make it that bit more beautiful. <BR /> <BR />The Green Party proposes a constitutional convention. The idea is to bring citizens and politicians together in order that citizens become part of the decision-making process. It would be a time-bound process, so it does not have to be lengthy. We can put a deadline on it and come to conclusions on issues that these institutions have found intractable but could be resolved, I believe, with the right structures in place.”
“We need a new deal that is suitable for today and, indeed, the future, because we cannot keep having crises. We cannot keep having crisis talks year after year — at one point, it seemed to be the annual Christmas tradition. Institutions and agreements that are continually in crisis need to be looked at again with today's context in mind. <BR /> <BR />Yes, we should go back to those principles and values, but we must go forward with a new agreement endorsed by today's generation. We sometimes use the term "ugly scaffolding", and I am sure that someone will enlighten me as to who came up with it.”
“It was David Ford. I give credit to Mr Ford for the term "false dawn". Each of these agreements involved secret negotiations behind closed doors, without the light of public scrutiny, and each has chiselled away at the Good Friday Agreement — the people's agreement. That is why I support the intention behind the SDLP motion, but, equally, I recognise that this is 20 years on. As an 18-year-old, I got to vote in the referendum on the Good Friday Agreement, but there will be voters in March who cannot remember 1998, never mind had the opportunity to vote. <BR /> <BR />It is not just about going back to the values and principles. We need to go back to the agreement. We need to review, reform and revitalise it, and then go forward with a new agreement.”
“Either way, I have always argued that there has been a democratic deficit since. <BR /> <BR />Since St Andrews, we have had the Hillsborough agreement; the Haass talks; and Fresh Start, or "false dawn", as some now refer to it.”
“We believe that it is absolutely the wrong direction of travel and takes the people's agreement further away from them. The Green Party proposes instead to have a constitutional convention, devolve power back to the people and give citizens a real stake in what happens here. <BR /> <BR />If we go back to 2007 and the St Andrews Agreement, we see that one of two things happened. Either, as the DUP claimed, the agreement was fundamentally changed — it had opposed the Good Friday Agreement but supported this one — but, if so, I ask the DUP what, given that 72% of people voted for the Good Friday Agreement, gave it the right to change it? You did it after an election, not before. Where was your mandate to do that? Alternatively, as some suggested, it was tinkered with, and the institutions remain largely unchanged.”
“For the first time, however, we were discussing politics around the table at home. We had a real debate in the house, and, without betraying family confidentiality, not everyone voted for it — it was a divided house in that regard. It was genuine engagement, and it really did feel like we had a say and a stake in the future of Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />Then, when the traditional parties got power, they guarded it jealously. It stopped being the people's agreement and became about what politicians in Stormont wanted and how they wished to interpret the Good Friday Agreement. Now, from some parties, we have proposals: one is to cede power back to Westminster; and there is even one for joint power with the Irish Government. The Green Party will reject that.”
“The Green Party believes that the traditional parties have wasted the opportunities of the Good Friday Agreement. This was the people's agreement. I say that with a degree of personal passion because I turned 18 in the year of the referendum. I would not say that I was political at the time. I was passionate about many things but not those reflected in Northern Ireland politics, and I did not come from a political family.”
“I thank the Member. I will try to make this my last intervention. Will the Member acknowledge that there was a further opportunity to introduce cost-control measures when her Department consulted on the proposal to introduce regression? As was confirmed to me by the head of energy division in a February 2016 meeting of the Committee for Enterprise, Trade and Investment, the Minister made a policy decision — I am paraphrasing here — that we wanted to get the domestic scheme up and running. That, and not regression, was the priority.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. He made mention of the Minister being asleep at the wheel. Is it not a sad state of affairs when, in defence of that Minister, her own party says, "Our Minister is not corrupt. She is merely incompetent"?”
“Those who purchased boilers to heat empty sheds would never get that money returned. They would be out of pocket — rightly so — because of their fraudulent activity in seeking to use public money in such a perverse way for personal profit. I think that it is a fair and right proposal, and it would impact. Those who bought boilers legitimately would still get a fair return on their investment and still receive an incentive, but they would have no incentive to waste heat or to be energy inefficient. There would be no cash for ash. I hate the fact that a green scheme has been abused in this way and that a scheme that was designed to reduce carbon has resulted in a likely increase in emissions. I hate the fact that the scheme was botched, but I do not think that these botched regulations are the way to right that wrong.”
“I think that I am right in saying that I have yet to receive a formal reply, although we raised it again in our meeting today in relation to the public inquiry. We believe that our proposal can do what the Minister seeks to achieve with these regulations but in a way that, I believe, is safer regarding any potential legal challenge. I believe that it is fair in that, in our proposal, any payment made over the cost of wood pellets would be considered a windfall so that this perverse incentive to burn and heat empty sheds would be gone.”
“If they are passed, I hope that they save public money, but my worry is that they will cost more in legal challenge or, indeed, if the caveat that they can go ahead only if approved by the EU finds that, whilst the Minister looks like he is trying to do something, the EU says no and someone else can again be blamed. We had this situation before when the Minister sought to incentivise United Airlines. He said that he could not do so because the EU said no, and United Airlines said that it chose not to take our money, thank you very much. <BR /> <BR />I am not going to stand here simply to oppose what has come forward with no alternative. The Green Party has proposed a windfall tax, and I have written to the Finance Minister about that.”
“It appears that they have been prepared only since the time that this became a significant public story in recent weeks, when it was clear that the Assembly was on the brink of collapse and it was important to be seen to be doing something. That is not the right circumstances in which to take such a risky action. <BR /> <BR />I have serious concerns, and I genuinely hope that I am proven wrong. If the Assembly passes the regulations today, I hope that they save public money. If people want to come back to me in six months' time or whatever when they have proven to have done so and tell me that I was wrong, I will admit that. I will not hide behind excuses or advice that I have been given from my office. I hope that I am wrong.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. That is not my recollection, but I am happy for what is in the public domain to prove me wrong. Certainly, he stepped down, and an investigation took place — it was not a full public inquiry — by which he said that he was exonerated, but we never saw the result of that investigation. <BR /> <BR />I will come back, as I am sure you will agree we all should, Mr Deputy Speaker, to the regulations. There is considerable risk with them. I feel that they do not appear to have been conceived when the Audit Office reported. They do not even appear to have had their genesis at the time when the scheme was being amended and the problems were realised and beginning to be addressed.”
“That it is what any honourable Minister would do, and, indeed, as has been pointed out, it is what Peter Robinson did when there were suspicions about him. Again, when that is the bar that is to be achieved, it is a sad day when Peter Robinson is being held up as the pinnacle of respect.”