Steven Agnew
North Down · Green Party · Northern Ireland
“We need an independent, open and transparent process for investigating Ministers. I have always failed to understand the opposition to that from some in the House. Given recent events, if the Assembly was to oppose it again today, there would be public anger.”
“This process would involve one commissioner and one independent investigation, rather than a political investigation that, I have no doubt, some at the time called a witch-hunt, as is often said when people are defending their Minister.”
“I am delighted to make a winding-up speech on this debate, which has been the first-ever sole Green Party private Member's motion. Thanks to the election of my colleague, Clare Bailey, we have two Green MLAs, which has increased our ability to use the Assembly privileges to put such suggestions forward.”
“I absolutely agree, Mr Beggs. <BR /> <BR />Another point I will make is about the idea of the distinction between the Minister and the Department. When I was drafting my private Member's Bill, I asked, "Should that say 'Minister' or 'Department'?". The legal advice that I was given was that they are one and the same.”
“If an MLA is alleged to have breached the code, a member of the public can write to the standards commissioner and have their complaint investigated in an independent manner. The result of any investigation is published and can, if required, lead to a debate in the Assembly so that all the issues can be aired.”
“I would argue that it serves neither the Minister nor the public well that we do not have such a process. An individual who seeks to complain will be left frustrated if they feel that their concerns are ignored by those in office, who are supposed to act on their behalf.”
The complete record
Every one of 1,353 lines we hold for Steven Agnew, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 2 of 28.
“You have a consultation, and the assumption that I make — a fair one, in this case — is that you are considering having a form of cost control. Again, a deliberate decision was taken not to introduce cost controls. Indeed, when I questioned the head of energy division at the ETI Committee in February 2016, he made it clear that it was a policy decision by the Minister not to introduce degression because we were focused on implementing the domestic scheme. That throws up the question of why you cannot have two priorities, but how that unit was funded and resourced is another matter. <BR /> <BR />Enough evidence was presented about the risk of £490 million of public money being lost that the then Minister, Arlene Foster, could and should have stepped aside until we got to the bottom of the issues.”
“That for me was the problem: assumptions were made. When those of us in the wider green movement — I and others — questioned at the scheme's inception why energy-efficiency measures were not being required as standard before installing, which would have required an audit in advance of installation rather than retrospectively, as we have now, the position was clear: we assume that people will do the right thing, so we will not add in those measures. <BR /> <BR />There is a lot of talk about whether it was a case of omission by lack of action or deliberate action that led to this. I believe that there were deliberate decisions made not to have audits and inspections of properties in advance of installing the boilers. There was consultation on the proposals for degression.”
“Given the focus that there is on this and the scrutiny that we do as MLAs in the midst of it all, I do not think that I can support the proposals today. <BR /> <BR />There has been a lot rehearsed about the RHI scheme, so I will not go into it in great detail. It was supposed to be a green scheme, with £25 million from the UK Government to help us switch to a low-carbon economy. I raised in September 2013 the issue of the perverse incentive. I got a response back from the then Minister. She stated:”
“This is a gamble. On the one hand, the prize is savings to the public purse. The Minister has not outlined as much. I notice that, last week, he did not refer to reducing to zero the cost to the Northern Ireland Budget, although some of his colleagues have today. I will see whether he makes that commitment today. We therefore have the prize of some reduction in the public spend. On the other hand, we have the risk of litigation and judicial review, and of further waste of public money on expensive legal challenges. And for what? What is being proposed is a temporary fix. It is a sticking plaster for one year while we, I assume, work on a proper solution. I do not think that I can take that gamble with public money.”
“<BR /> <BR />The first scenario would be much more preferable, in which our institutions were not facing collapse; we, as public representatives, were not being contacted by organisations that are having to put their staff on protective notice because there is no Budget and they have not been given any certainty about their funding; and what was left of the goodwill towards politics in Northern Ireland was not completely destroyed. We are being asked to back the Minister's proposals. Given the time, we had the extra week to examine the proposals, hear from the Examiner of Statutory Rules and see whether more confidence could be given. I cannot read the paper by the Examiner and not continue to be concerned by what is being put forward.”
“We had a possible scenario in which Arlene Foster could have stepped aside, we could have had a public inquiry and, indeed, we could have taken the necessary time to find a solution to the RHI debacle in order to protect public money. Arlene Foster is no longer First Minister — she did not step aside — but there is the same result. We are having a public inquiry, it would seem, and we will get the details of it tomorrow. We have these regulations proposed as a solution but without proper scrutiny and with an election looming.”
“There has been a lot of discussion in the debate about scrutiny, such as what scrutiny of the proposal for the RHI scheme took place, who is culpable, where things went wrong and how they were not spotted. Today we are being asked to approve regulations with very little scrutiny and very little time for scrutiny. We know why that is: we are facing an election, the Assembly is due to dissolve on Wednesday and we are pushed for time. The question is this: why? Why are the institutions collapsing? Why have we got here? It is the Executive that have collapsed, and I think it is fair to put the blame at the door of the Executive parties.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. He made reference to the fact that it was supposed to be a scheme about reducing carbon. However, in 2013, when I asked the Minister what work was being done to ensure that people had energy-efficient measures in place before they installed a boiler, the answer came back that it was assumed that they would do that.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. He makes the point quite properly that many businesses will have availed themselves of this scheme legitimately. Does he not believe that there is an incentive for those businesses to come forward and say, "Yes, we do have these boilers; look and see what we use them for"? That would further expose businesses that have abused the scheme.”
“I thank the Member for giving way; he has done so a number of times. On the point that, "This is it", I am working on the basis that we will be back here after the election. The regulations do not kick in until after 1 April, so is there not time to come back to a new Assembly to put something in place?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Will he not agree that, if businesses come forward from the outset and say that they have availed themselves of RHI and explain how and why they are using it legitimately, it could, pardon the pun, take some of the heat off them? I think that you are being much more generous to Mr Wells than you would have been had the media found out what the situation with his family was, rather than him coming forward.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. She made the point that one person was not to blame. Apart from the fact that there were those of us, including me, who did raise issues about the scheme early on, it was one person who, once this became public knowledge, did not accept responsibility as Minister, kept trying to put the blame on civil servants, the media, the Opposition and everyone else, and one person who refused to step up and take responsibility. That is why is that one person is currently in the dock.”
“Our trains have been a great success, but there has been less success in getting people to shift on to buses where the train line does not run. <BR /> <BR />As I said, I appreciate the proposal this evening. It is regrettable that the Minister is not here to hear it, but I hope that his officials are listening on his behalf. It is something that needs to be relooked at. The introduction of loading bays was a well-intentioned move to assuage people like me who are frustrated by the double-parking, but it has not solved the issue, and we need a different solution.”
“Whether we have them or not, our parking problems in Bangor will not be completely alleviated either way. Six or seven extra spaces would undoubtedly help, but we need the wider issue resolved. It is worth making that point, because, as the Queen's Parade project continues, there is an opportunity to look at parking in general in the town centre and bring about a long-term solution. In the short term, it is certainly something that can be fixed more quickly than Queen's Parade — if, indeed, the Queen's Parade issue is ever resolved. I hope and believe that it will be. It is a question of "when" rather than "if". <BR /> <BR />We need to look at a strategic approach to parking in Bangor. We need to look at the transition to more low-carbon forms of transport.”
“I will start by inviting Mr Dunne to acknowledge that, in North Down, we love our trains. We have an award-winning train station in Bangor, and, indeed, the train brings in much tourism — some of it unwanted, admittedly, at times. However, it is highly valued in North Down and our town centres. <BR /> <BR />I appreciate Alex Easton bringing forward the issue. As a resident who lives on the edge of the town centre, I know that double-parking by delivery lorries is the bane of any driver's existence when trying to get through the town centre. It is infuriating, but, as has been highlighted here today, the problem has not been alleviated by the loading bays. <BR /> <BR />We have a wider issue with parking in general in North Down. The loading bay issue is particularly frustrating for those who have fallen foul of the fines.”
“The Green Party will be out, as a progressive party, offering our alternative to what we have seen. I will take the opportunity to highlight the waste of the Executive, whether that be the wasted money of the RHI or the wasted opportunity to reform Northern Ireland for the better. <BR /> <BR />I hate where we have got to. I hate that our people have been failed in such a way. Job losses are inevitable over a political fallout that could and should have been resolved. Arlene Foster should have done the honourable thing and stepped aside, but Máirtín Ó Muilleoir should have presented a Budget to us on 19 December, as had been anticipated. As we know, we are heading into an election, and the electorate will make their judgement on that.”
“<BR /> <BR />Providing services is the fundamental element of government. We would have had a debate in here about the Budget — no doubt, I would have been unhappy with it, as is my wont — but producing a Budget is the minimum that we should expect. Anyone who is derelict in that duty is unfit for government, quite frankly. <BR /> <BR />I do not like the situation that we are in. I do not like that we are heading for an election. I do not believe that it should have come to this, but I am pleased that the electorate will have the opportunity to give their verdict on these failures. For all the debates and disagreements that we have had in this Chamber, this has been the most startling failure that we have seen. <BR /> <BR />I will be pleased to offer a positive alternative.”
“Even if Mr Allister is wrong and the Civil Service can implement 75% of the Budget, there will still be huge cuts to our public services. Those in the community and voluntary sector are often the first to lose out. <BR /> <BR />Sinn Féin has quite rightly pointed to the DUP, and Arlene Foster in particular, and said, "You need to hold your hands up. You need to be accountable for the RHI fiasco". That is right, but much was made of the so-called brave decision of Sinn Féin to take the finance portfolio, and it has a duty to produce a Budget. The Finance Minister, who should be here to hear this debate, has a responsibility to explain to the people of Northern Ireland why we are heading into an election with the possibility of there being no agreed Budget at the other side in advance of the deadline on 31 March.”
“Over the Christmas recess I was contacted by the chief executive of a Belfast-based charity which has a project working with vulnerable families; it could be called an early intervention project. It is waiting to hear whether it will get the extended year funding that it was anticipating. Because there has been no Budget and no likelihood of a Budget, it is unlikely that it will hear. As a result, 45 staff have had to be put on notice and 700 service users will be let down. That is just one example of the many services that are under threat due to the failure of this Executive. <BR /> <BR />The traditional parties have wasted their opportunity to provide stable government in Northern Ireland, and I think the failure to produce a Budget is the most damning thing, given its consequences.”
“— to work with his colleagues to achieve that.”
“The proposal, in my view and in the advice that I have been given, would be legal because it would not retrospectively change the contracts of recipients but would do what any Government are entitled to do; introduce a tax on windfall payments that have been received. <BR />I believe that the proposal is fair, I believe that it is legal and I believe that it is a long-term solution, unlike the one-year proposal that we had from the Economy Minister yesterday. We still have time, albeit very limited time, to protect public money. I call on the Finance Minister —”
“<BR /> <BR />I have sought to be positive and constructive in my contributions since I was elected to the House. Today, I have sought to do that. Following yesterday's debate on Simon Hamilton's proposals, which I have been clear that my party cannot accept, I have written to the Finance Minister and asked him to investigate the possibility of a windfall tax. The Green Party proposes that there be a 100% tax on any payment that is owed to RHI recipients over and above the cost of wood pellets. That would ensure that there would be no incentive to produce heat without use and no cash for ash.”
“I think that it is a worrying time. I ask the question: what has been achieved? What did this insistence on saying no and refusing to step aside achieve? All that was being asked was that Arlene Foster do what would be expected of any employee who was under suspicion. All that was being asked was indeed what Mr Bell was expected to accept by his party; suspension without prejudice pending investigation. But Arlene Foster is no ordinary employee: she is the leader of unionism. Some leadership. This is what it has led to: the Assembly and institutions, which have taken hard work to get up and running and on which Northern Ireland's future depends, on the brink of collapse; no Budget; no Programme for Government; and no solution to RHI. That is what her leadership has achieved. That is where we are.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. I would argue, and have argued, that Arlene Foster could have taken the lead. She could have done as her predecessor, Peter Robinson, did and actually say, "I will step aside. I will take that decision". I do not agree with the method of inquiry in the Peter Robinson case, but it is a sad scenario when I am saying, "Remember the good old days when we had Peter Robinson? There was an honourable guy".”
“I will give way in a moment. <BR /> <BR />What we have is scenario 2, where, as I say, Arlene Foster is still not the First Minister. Whether that will be temporary or permanent, we will see. We have a proposal from Simon Hamilton on protecting public money that I would argue is dodgy at best. We have no inquiry, and although I think that it is increasingly unlikely, we do still have Ministers and still have that opportunity. We have institutions that are on the brink of collapse. I have to ask the question: given that, in both these scenarios, Arlene Foster is, at least temporarily, no longer the First Minister, what has her intransigence achieved? Why are we facing political crisis? I will give way to Mr Stalford.”
“In scenario 1, we could have had an agreed inquiry into the RHI scandal. We could have had an agreed proposal to protect public money. We could have had stable government.”
“We have two possible scenarios. Scenario 1 is that Arlene Foster steps aside as First Minister for a temporary period, and scenario 2 is that she refuses but the result is that she is forced out of her position as First Minister, as has transpired.”
“I thank Mr Dickson for giving way. I come back to his point about the DUP's new-found support for a public inquiry. That was its position while still in the Government and, indeed, while Sinn Féin was still taking a role in the Government. The DUP could then, through one of its Ministers, have proposed a public inquiry at the Executive and forced Sinn Féin's hand. Sinn Féin would have been forced to agree or disagree to that. The DUP chose not to do it, so its claims are disingenuous.”
“Is it not a shame that we have the same outcome, with Arlene Foster no longer the First Minister, but we do not have a public inquiry? What we do now have is unstable institutions. Surely she should have done the right thing and stepped aside.”
“Under our proposals, claimants would only receive a maximum of the cost of wood pellets, thereby removing the incentive to heat empty sheds and burn heat needlessly and to ensure that there was no cash for ash. It would be fair, legal and protect public money. I support the motion to adjourn today's debate so that such a proposal can be considered.”
“I think he does so in the hope that he will be seen to put forward a proposal to deal with this debacle that the DUP has created and that the EU will shoot it down, because he knows that it is unworkable. He has record on this; he previously sought to blame the EU for his failed attempt to woo United Airlines with public money to get it to stay in Northern Ireland. He said that the EU blocked it, but United Airlines came out and said that, in fact, it chose to leave. <BR /> <BR />The Green Party proposes instead a windfall tax and asks the Minister to take the extended time that he has been given to explore the option of 100% tax on excessive profits as a result of RHI.”
“As things stand, the Green Party is unable to support the proposals brought forward by the Minister for the Economy, so we welcome the opportunity of an adjournment so that we can glean more information on them. The Minister has asked us to gamble on his proposal — gamble that it will save us more money in money not lost to the RHI scheme and save us more money than it will cost in potential legal cases, and I think that that potential is great. I have to say that, right now, the Green Party is not minded to gamble on a DUP Minister's assurances at this time. <BR /> <BR />The Minister appears to be trying to dig the DUP out of a hole of its own making. He has stated clearly that these proposals would have to face the scrutiny of the EU, and I think that he does so knowing that they will not pass muster.”
“The Green Party continues to oppose welfare cuts and will continue to take every opportunity to do so.”
“It was the intention of the then Minister still to apply the bedroom tax where people had a change in circumstances or they were offered alternative accommodation. It was not complete opposition; it was not a case of no bedroom tax ever. That is my concern: beyond 2020, the bedroom tax will be introduced to Northern Ireland, as was legislated for by Westminster. It was mitigated for four years, but there is uncertainty beyond that. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the legislation today to provide temporary protection for those who are vulnerable to the provisions of the bedroom tax. However, the question remains how long this will be mitigated and why we wasted the opportunity to pass bespoke Northern Ireland legislation that would have said no definitively to the bedroom tax.”
“My concern — it comes back to the point of what happens post-2020 — is that it was always the intention of the DUP to phase in the bedroom tax. The DUP's purported opposition came late in the day, and, as I said, it was prepared to pass the legislation in this House. Minister Mervyn Storey, at Consideration Stage of the Welfare Reform Bill, said that:”
“I agree once again with the Member. I hope it does not come to that. It was regrettable that we ceded power back to Westminster on welfare reform. I suggest we should not cede any more power by failing the people of Northern Ireland by failing to find a political solution to our current impasse.”
“I accept the Member's point that there is the possibility after four years of renewing mitigation measures. What there is not is the certainty, and that certainty would have been provided by not legislating for the bedroom tax.”
“It was not no to any legislation and no to any reform; it was about better legislation for Northern Ireland that was better for the people of Northern Ireland. In ceding power back to Westminster on this issue, we wasted the opportunity to provide a better deal here. <BR /> <BR />Whilst I welcome the mitigation measures, ultimately they provide security only for the next four years and leave many people unsure what will happen post 2020. It also means we arrive at a situation where we are having to effectively pass emergency legislation to ensure those people are protected, even in the short term.”
“She was not here when we were debating welfare reform in the Northern Ireland Assembly. I brought forward 23 amendments to that legislation. I did not, at the outset, say no to all and any welfare reform. What I did do was seek, through reasonable amendments, to make things better in Northern Ireland. I did not do that through a system of copying and pasting the Tory regulations, which her party supported, and introducing them in Northern Ireland legislation; instead, I said, "Let's have bespoke legislation for Northern Ireland", because it is not right to put the legislation into place first and mitigate after. What is right is to get the legislation right first and not have to mitigate.”
“I thank the Member for her intervention, and I accept that she was not in the Assembly when we were debating the —”
“Unfortunately, whilst others may wring their hands today and purport their opposition to the bedroom tax, when it came to opposing it in the House and preventing such legislation coming forward to the Northern Ireland Assembly, there were only two parties, the SDLP and the Green Party, that stood up to say no to the bedroom tax.”
“I thank the Member for his point, because it is a point I was going to come to. The Green Party is committed to doing what is right to protect the most vulnerable, which is why we have consistently opposed all legislation that proposed to introduce the bedroom tax in Northern Ireland. We are the only party, along with the SDLP, that consistently did so. We had the opportunity through this Assembly to bring forward bespoke legislation for Northern Ireland. We had the opportunity to say, "We will not legislate for the bedroom tax in Northern Ireland".”
“I will finish the point and then give way. To exacerbate that by playing out a fight about their incomes in the media reflects badly on us all.”
“I have to say that I hate to see politicians using the most vulnerable for their own political ends. The sham fight that took place between the Finance Minister and the Communities Minister over the bedroom tax was nothing short of a disgrace. Thirty-four thousand people have seen them toy with their financial security for their own political ends, particularly after Christmas, when people are already struggling, facing debt and financial insecurity —”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Will he clarify his point? The money was not lost to the people of Northern Ireland; it was lost to our block grant but instead it was paid directly to the people of Northern Ireland.”
“The people of Northern Ireland deserve answers. They deserve to know how this was allowed to happen under Mrs Foster's governance. They deserve to know what went wrong, and they deserve the confidence of knowing that the mistakes will be learned from and that, in future, such mistakes will not be made again. They cannot, however, have that confidence while Arlene Foster remains at the helm and is involved in setting the terms of reference of any inquiry that goes forward. The inquiry must be independent and judge-led, and we need to be confident that Mrs Foster's fingerprints will not be on that inquiry. <BR /> <BR />I hear the objection that today's motion does not go far enough, but I see no objection to the content of the motion, which asks Mrs Foster to step aside while she is investigated.”
“The right thing to do would be to step down pending an investigation. In any organisation, that is the normal due process when someone is accused of mishandling in their role, which is, indeed, the process that Mr Jonathan Bell has faced. He has been accused of breaching party rules and has been asked to step down without prejudice and pending an investigation. It is time that Arlene Foster did the same.”
“The media furore that has surrounded this debate — rightly, given the sums of money involved — could have been avoided had she stepped up at the time and, when the failings came to light, said that she got it wrong. We would not have seen the heat that this debate has caused had she accepted responsibility from the start. <BR /> <BR />To have had a track record of such failure time and time again can only lead me to the conclusion that Arlene Foster is a very shrewd, a very ruthless and a very skilled politician. Unfortunately, I can only conclude that she is an incompetent Minister.”
“When I was first elected to the House in 2011, I called her out for not declaring land that her husband owned in relation to a licensed fracking area. She said that she had nothing to do with giving out petroleum exploration licences in Northern Ireland. She said that she had not signed the licences; it was her civil servants. <BR /> <BR />What we are left with is a picture of a Minister who either does not accept the responsibility that she has or who is incompetent in discharging that responsibility. I support today's motion of no confidence on behalf of the Green Party because I cannot have confidence in a Minister who does not stand up and take responsibility when things go wrong.”
“The project was put together by an international consortium, including a business from Holywood in my constituency. The self-appointed champion of foreign direct investment did not get involved and did not secure that investment for Northern Ireland, and another failure happened on her watch. <BR /> <BR />The renewable heat incentive scheme, which had been successful in the rest of the UK, has been botched in Northern Ireland alone. Arlene Foster blamed it on her civil servants. She blamed it on her successor. She blamed it on the media. She blamed it on the Opposition. She blamed it on everyone except the person who was in charge at the time: Arlene Foster. She has form for blaming things on others and for abdicating responsibility to her civil servants.”