Steven Agnew
North Down · Green Party · Northern Ireland
“We need an independent, open and transparent process for investigating Ministers. I have always failed to understand the opposition to that from some in the House. Given recent events, if the Assembly was to oppose it again today, there would be public anger.”
“This process would involve one commissioner and one independent investigation, rather than a political investigation that, I have no doubt, some at the time called a witch-hunt, as is often said when people are defending their Minister.”
“I am delighted to make a winding-up speech on this debate, which has been the first-ever sole Green Party private Member's motion. Thanks to the election of my colleague, Clare Bailey, we have two Green MLAs, which has increased our ability to use the Assembly privileges to put such suggestions forward.”
“I absolutely agree, Mr Beggs. <BR /> <BR />Another point I will make is about the idea of the distinction between the Minister and the Department. When I was drafting my private Member's Bill, I asked, "Should that say 'Minister' or 'Department'?". The legal advice that I was given was that they are one and the same.”
“If an MLA is alleged to have breached the code, a member of the public can write to the standards commissioner and have their complaint investigated in an independent manner. The result of any investigation is published and can, if required, lead to a debate in the Assembly so that all the issues can be aired.”
“I would argue that it serves neither the Minister nor the public well that we do not have such a process. An individual who seeks to complain will be left frustrated if they feel that their concerns are ignored by those in office, who are supposed to act on their behalf.”
The complete record
Every one of 1,353 lines we hold for Steven Agnew, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 22 of 28.
“Why would people inflict that level of punishment on themselves? What possible motive could they have? Are they a society of anarchists, who really want to bring down the system, so that they are willing to suffer no food and an inability to pay for the basic necessities? Is it that they are so opposed to the system that they would do that? Why is that? I would argue that, if there is a high number of people being sanctioned in such a way, we have to look at why that might be.”
“I thank the Member again for his intervention. I turn the question round: why, as it is in many cases, when this is someone's sole source of income, would they decide to persistently miss an appointment? Why would they make that choice, and we are assuming, following Mr Wilson's argument, that they are competent to choose, in the full knowledge — the Minister said that the person must be aware of the sanctions regime — that their primary or, perhaps, only source of income will be drastically cut or withdrawn? Why would someone choose not to go to that appointment or job interview? I know there is this great idea that a huge raft of people are just sitting gleefully at home thanks to the benefits system and saying, "I am not even going to attend my appointments, because I do not care".”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. He talks about responsibility. Of course, we each take responsibility for our actions. We are talking about cases of disability and the mentally unwell. In cases of severe disability or mental ill health, would these people pass the competency test? How can we apply that level of responsibility in a system where we recognise the level of disability and ,indeed, seek to compensate for it, but, on the other hand, seek to punish people for actions that may be a result of disability, mental ill health etc?”
“I will give way in a second. I had some reluctance in putting forward this amendment because I still find that incredibly punitive, but, reading the mood of the House, it seems that that would somehow describe me as a bleeding-heart liberal, as I am sure Mr Wilson will, or something to that effect. To me, it is still an incredible sanction to impose on someone.”
“The Minister has suggested, for example, that 26 weeks is too lenient a sanction to impose on someone who has, as the current model proposes, failed to meet the requirements on three occasions. What that would actually mean for people is that, in some cases, for 26 weeks, which is my proposal, they would go without any income or would, at best, receive hardship payments at half the level of, say, current JSA to live on. We have heard references to organisations that provide food banks. It means that people will become reliant on handouts and food banks for six months.”
“At the outset of my contribution on this group of amendments, I would like to pay tribute to the work of the Social Development Committee, particularly those who acted as advocates against the three-year maximum penalty. It is welcome that the Minister has put forward an amendment to bring that to 18 months. Clearly, as my amendments show, I do not think that it goes far enough, but I am pleased to see that there has been some move in that regard, in what I see as the right direction. <BR /> <BR />We have to put into context what that can mean for people. In these debates around welfare, I go back to my time working with the homeless. I know that I have referred to it a few times, but that direct experience served me well in understanding what we do here today, and indeed yesterday, when we discuss these issues.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. I was clear that I have no problem with the proposed commission. It is not me or my party that is so critical of existing commissions. He said that this simply replaces what is already there. Is he therefore saying that it will exist within the same footprint — ie there will be no greater costs?”
“It is them who I am trying to expose when I seek to make it clear that this is essentially a phased introduction of the bedroom tax. That is what it is; plain and simple. It is a phased introduction, but it is still being introduced in Northern Ireland.”
“I appreciate the Minister giving way again. I want to be clear about my objection. As far as I can tell, the Minister has laid out that there will be a discretionary payment for those who cannot find alternative suitable accommodation but who are in a house that is deemed to be greater than their needs. He has made it clear that he intends to improve the housing stock in its diversity and the number of bedrooms. <BR /> <BR />What I was trying to make clear in my submission was that there are those who, like the Minister, subscribe to the policy that if there is smaller accommodation for a person and their needs change, they should move. However, there are others who said that they disagreed with that policy, yet they have signed up to it.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. Obviously, when I discussed this issue, there was some confusion. I think that he has cleared it up, and I just want to confirm that. The policy is that a mitigation fund will be put in place until such time as the housing stock is suitable in order that we implement the bedroom tax. Is that what the Minister is saying? It is important that this matter is made clear.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. He said that citizens in Northern Ireland would be subject to preferential treatment compared with claimants in Great Britain. Surely everyone who receives a supplementary payment as part of a top-up will be in a preferential situation over claimants in Great Britain.”
“I find it hard to understand the rationale of the benefits cap other than that it is a kind of cheap political defence of the welfare system that says, "We cannot stand up and defend it passionately and with conviction, so we will put this artificial cap on, regardless of families' needs, and we will disadvantage people so that we face down some pressure". I would not even say that it is public pressure; I would say that it is media pressure. If you believe in the principle of benefits based on need, I think that the benefits cap is regrettable. I welcome the SDLP's amendment to the clause.”
“Finally, amendment No 42 is on the benefit cap. There are two possibilities on the benefit cap. First, you either believe that benefits are paid on the basis of need. If you do, by proposing a benefit cap, you believe that we are overestimating the need, which is why some people go above that cap. In that case, you need to re-evaluate the whole benefits system. Or secondly, you disagree with the fundamental principle of benefits, which is to meet citizens' basic needs. If that is the case, I wonder why you support welfare at all.”
“I personally believe that commissions and, indeed, commissioners are necessary, and I commend the work of the Children's Commissioner, the Human Rights Commission and the Equality Commission, unlike those opposite, but the next time that they stand up here and make a blanket dismissal of commissions, I will remind them that today they sought to establish the discretionary support commissioner.”
“I am disappointed that Alliance has withdrawn from its amendment. I do not believe that it would breach anything that I understand about the Stormont House Agreement, in that it would not incur significant cost, but part of that deal was that it appears that no amendment should be made. As I said, I think that it is regrettable in this case, because there is clearly a minority fighting this cause for minorities. I stand to do that, I believe, with the support of the SDLP, and I welcome that. <BR /> <BR />I have a few final points. I note with a wry smile the establishment of the discretionary support commissioner. The wry smile is because the party opposite is the champion of the bonfire of the quangos in Northern Ireland, but we see the creation of a new commissioner. I think that it is necessary.”
“If the Minister has counter-evidence, I would be interested to hear it, but the clause leaves us open to a situation in which two workers employed in the same job in the same company — one from Northern Ireland or elsewhere in the UK and one from outside the UK but still within the European Economic Area (EEA) — become unemployed at the same time, and we treat one differently from the other. It is a bit like what I said about young people in relation to shared accommodation. That is legislating for discrimination. I do not accept that as how I want to see our society. <BR /> <BR />I have to say that I am disappointed, as this amendment was originally proposed by Anna Lo, who probably could have spoken with much more conviction on this issue, given her experiences of working with ethnic minorities in Northern Ireland.”
“I do not believe that that is the ambition of anyone who establishes a business. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 75, which is the last of the Green Party amendments, is around the full conditionality for work for EU nationals. I have been provided with evidence, I believe that the Committee has been provided with evidence, and I have no doubt that the Minister has been provided with evidence that this clause, as currently drafted, should it be unamended, would breach EU rules.”
“I think that people who set up their own business are driven, but when the economy takes a downturn and they cannot receive a minimum income, never mind a living wage, from their business, I think that it is right that we do a proper assessment of need, rather than what we somehow think should be the case, which is that if you have a business, you should be earning a minimum income. It is not always the reality, and I think that we should protect those in small businesses and encourage them. When they are doing well, they should come off benefits, and an assessment should be done on that basis, but when things are not going so well, we should not simply say, "Well, we are not going to meet your needs because you are a business person, and we do not want you to become too reliant on benefits", as was suggested yesterday.”
“Amendment No 73 relates to the self-employed and the assumption made in benefit calculations that they receive minimum income. Again, the point was made yesterday evening about wanting to make work pay and incentivising people to work. I do not believe that people who set up their own business really believe, "I am only doing this because I cannot get enough benefits, and if you would just give me more benefits, I would not bother with this whole business stuff; it is quite hard".”
“Again, if we are committed to making sure that no one is worse off, we should give a commitment to ensure that the disability addition remains part of universal credit. My proposal is that it should be in the Bill. I wait to hear if the Minister, through the supplementary payments, is committed to ensuring that the families affected will not lose out.”
“It recognises that, due to age, contributory ESA would not be available to them other than for the provisions in our current welfare legislation. My proposal is that those should continue into the new legislation. My understanding is, and the Minister can clarify this, that the commitment is that those people will not lose out under the current proposals. My proposal, as it has been consistently, is to put that protection in the Bill, but I wait to hear the Minister's proposals in relation to the youth payment of ESA. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 5 is around the disability addition, and, again, it comes back to putting the commitment in the Bill that no one will be worse off. As things stand, there would be a reduction in universal credit of £26 per week for families who receive the disability addition.”
“Do not punish them from the day and hour they lose their job or when their relationship breaks down. I think this is reasonable. It would be the sign of a Government that understand the needs of people who find themselves unemployed. It would say that the Assembly does not follow the rationale of the Tory welfare cuts, which is to punish people for being unemployed. It would recognise the real-life stories of why people find themselves in those circumstances. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 27, and, indeed, my opposition to clause 54, is around the youth provision of employment support allowance (ESA). As I understand it, this is a payment that is received by a very small number of disabled young people.”
“So, I would have been unemployed, single, and have had two kids; and I would have been told, first by the Tory Government where this has come from, but now by this Northern Ireland Executive that proposes to pass the legislation, that, "We will only support you to live in shared accommodation, where you might not be able to bring your children and which might be completely unsuitable to your needs. We are immediately going to punish you for losing your job and for the breakdown in your relationship — because those were not bad enough — and we really do want to kick you when you are down". <BR /> <BR />My amendment proposes not to scrap that proposal, although I would like to do so. It is a reasonable amendment, which gives a person one year to find a new job or a new home.”
“I know that my young colleague Mr Lyttle is still 34. Sorry, Chris; I hope that is not personal information. <BR /> <BR />I will use myself as an example and go back to before my last birthday, when I was still 34. I had a job, I had two children, I had a partner and I had a house. These institutions were under threat, and there was the potential that I could lose my job. There was the potential that me losing my job, and the stress that that would create in my family, would put strain on my relationship and it might have broken down.”
“Indeed, the landlord loses out because he or she cannot claim rent and is now in a position of having to penalise the person, potentially asking him or her to move out for breach of contract if he or she fails to pay the rent, or they will take a hit. One of those parties will lose out because someone has done what we want them to do and got a job. It is a reasonable proposal to allow a transition payment for the period that the person is working but not receiving income. Others may disagree, but, if they disagree, at least they understand it first. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 6 is about the shared accommodation rate for young people. I think that the very premise of the proposal in the Bill is discriminatory. It treats young people differently, and the definition of young person has gone up to the age of 34. I turned 35 last year.”
“As Members will be aware, most employers do not pay in advance but after someone has worked for a month. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 7 seeks to protect people who have been paying their rent through housing benefit and have sought work, as we want them to. The amendment is about not only ensuring that work pays but ensuring that people who might have been living on a very basic income on benefits and are unlikely to have savings do not fall into the trap of getting a job and having their housing benefit immediately stopped, with a landlord demanding rent. Who loses in that situation? The person who loses is the individual who has sought work, as we supposedly want them to do. That person gets a job and loses.”
“I know that you will disagree with me, but you gave me an opportunity to make it very clear where I stand on this issue. <BR /> <BR />I move on to another area of housing, which is covered in amendment No 7. There has been some misunderstanding about what amendment No 7 does or what its rationale is. It is about the four-week transition payment for people who move off benefits and go into work. I have plenty of experience of the private rented sector. I have experience of housing benefit and know how these things work. I will lay it out as clearly as I can, because I feel that there were misunderstandings in some comments. When you are on housing benefit, your rent is paid in arrears at the end of the month for the month that has just passed. However, most private landlords expect rent to be paid up front.”
“We have seen the growth of food banks over the UK, so it is to ensure that the state provides rather than people having to rely on churches and charities providing handouts. That is why I pay my taxes. <BR /> <BR />"Taxes" is a big, ugly word, and we are told that we should reduce them all the time. We are told to lower taxes, and everything will be better, but we pay taxes for a reason. We pay taxes because we believe in society. We believe that we are better off collectively when we put money into a central pot to provide for all of us should we need it, whether for health, education or welfare. I believe in public services; I do not believe in rebalancing the economy, which is a nice slogan for cutting the public sector to shreds. I thank you for your comments, Mr Allister.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. I think that it is fair to say that we have very differing politics. I believe that spending public money on protecting the most vulnerable in our society is something worth doing, and I make no apology for saying that that should come out of our block grant and that that should come out of public funds. For me, the very essence of why we pay our taxes is to ensure that the most vulnerable in our society are protected and to ensure that when the economy collapses — while I would love to blame politicians in Northern Ireland, it was to a large extent through no fault of our own here — that people out of work have a safety net and can provide for themselves and their families, albeit at a very basic level, to ensure that they are not in destitution.”
“The Treasury said, "We will let you do this on the condition that you use it to cut the size of your public sector" — a redundancy pot that will see 20,000 people added to the unemployment list over four years. That is what was in the Stormont House Agreement. That is honest. I argued all along that any agreement should have public input, and that never happened. It is up to people to decide whether that is a good deal or a bad deal, but we should be clear as to what the deal was. That is exactly what it was, and no one has disputed that, because they cannot dispute it.”
“What I would say is that we need to be honest with people. When people are being told that we got £2 billion in extra money, we need to make it clear that that is not true. We need to be honest about what the agreement was and what it did. Part of the agreement said that the Treasury kindly, in its benevolence, said that you can take hundreds of millions of pounds from your infrastructure capital and you can transfer it to resource to make people redundant. It kindly let us do that. That is not extra money. That is money that we would have spent potentially on schools, roads and infrastructure. It was money that would have created employment in Northern Ireland, and we have moved it to a fund.”
“It is not my objection at all. I am quite happy that we fund this, but my point is that we decide how we spend our money. We have agreement from the Treasury; is it an agreement for five years on the bedroom tax, or is it the case that we are choosing to fund this for five years out of our block grant? I assumed that it was the latter; that seems to be the proposal in Budget.”
“I will in a second. <BR /> <BR />Money has been moved around. There is no additional money for this provision or anything else for that matter. It comes out of our block grant. As I said, money is being moved around and loans have been given, but the money is not additional —”
“I am still unclear whether we are not going to have a bedroom tax in Northern Ireland or whether we are not going to have it for five years. With regard to the agreement to fund it, given that we have had no extra money from the UK Government, it is our decision how we spend our Budget, and we can decide whether that is something that we want to do for five years or do in the long term. Yes, we will have to fund it, but we are funding it out of our Budget already. There is no additional money coming from the Treasury. We have some loans to make people redundant, we have been allowed to move some money around, but the whole nonsense of a £2 billion fund was just that: absolute nonsense.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. I will try to move on from this point.”
“I will, because I seek clarity from the Member.”
“Principal Deputy Speaker, I really am confused. On the one hand, I am told that, had Sinn Féin stuck to its commitment on the bedroom tax, these institutions would have collapsed; on the other, that the deal ensures that the bedroom tax will not come into Northern Ireland. I am not sure which is true, but —”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. Do I genuinely believe what I am saying? I absolutely do, because the policy was always for three- and two-bedroom build, because that is what met the needs, and that policy changed when the bedroom tax came in in GB. I have heard no other rationale for it. I do not believe for a second that it was coincidental that it kick-started when the bedroom tax was coming into place. I hear about the concessions, and Mr Maskey referred to the costs. The commitment, by taking the bedroom tax out of this Bill, is not just saying "We will not have it for the five-year period", which we have been told is the concession but saying that "Northern Ireland has decided that it will not have it at all."”
“The outcome is that their bungalows are now to have one bedroom rather than two because we are preparing for the implementation of the bedroom tax. I give way to Mr Humphrey.”
“I will in a second. I will give an example from my constituency. I started this point before the interventions and I would like to get through it. <BR /> <BR />Constituents required multi-element improvements to their bungalows. For various historical reasons, the Housing Executive could not do that. They have now been transferred to Oaklee Housing. They were promised two-bedroom refurbishments. Then, the bedroom tax came in in GB and they were told that they were getting one-bedroom bungalows. To be honest, the state of the bungalows that they were living in was so bad that they were grateful for anything, because they had waited for years while political wrangling around the funding of new builds, refurbishments etc was decided in this place, and they were left with the consequences.”
“I thank the Member for her intervention. Mr Storey said from a sedentary position that this is not what is happening in DSD.”
“Thank you, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker. I will let Ms Kelly in in a second. To sum up Mr Maskey's point; are we better off with a five-year deferral than where we started? Yes, I accept that. Is it what was promised: to ensure that the bedroom tax did not apply in Northern Ireland? No, because, right now, the Department for Social Development is ensuring that more one-bedroom houses are being built. It would not be doing that were it not for the intention to introduce the bedroom tax at a later stage.”
“Mr Maskey alluded to the previous petition of concern that three parties were going to sign and that would have stopped the bedroom tax. What we are being presented with is a five-year deferral. It is not the ending of the bedroom tax in Northern Ireland, but a deferral so that we can build more houses. <BR /> <BR />I have an example in my constituency. I have constituents who have been campaigning for years for multi-element improvements to their Housing Executive bungalows. Due to various reasons, which I will not go into, around the Housing Executive —”
“It is not that I doubt the sincerity of the Minister when he says that the commitment is there or that of any other parties that have been privy to that agreement, but I fail to understand why we cannot give the security of putting it in legislation — or, to be more accurate, removing it from legislation. <BR /> <BR />Some of the clues were given. It would seem that it is a five-year deferral. It is not about it being that, as has been said, the bedroom tax is wrong in principle. It is about us having some practical problems with it — we do not have the housing stock or the one-bedroom houses. We have asked for five years to get a greater provision of one-bedroom houses, and we will then implement the bedroom tax. I am sorry to say this to Sinn Féin, but if that is what they signed up for, it is not what they committed to.”
“I certainly believe that it is a bad idea, and its application has been shown to be disastrous in GB. I believe that it was ill-conceived from the very start and that the very principles of the bedroom tax are wrong. As Mr Attwood alluded to, it was about punishing people who rely on support from the state. It was a punishment and, in my view, was never, in any way, about making things better. <BR /> <BR />We have been told about the flexibilities that have been agreed with the Government; the flexibilities that were negotiated two years ago or something to that extent. We have agreed it with the Government, so why can we not agree to put it into legislation? If we have that flexibility, why is it not in the Bill?”
“Some have tabled no amendments; some have tabled amendments that, they believe, will not have a cost; and others, like me, have tabled amendments that will have a cost. However, we have a top-up fund for a reason, and those are some of the areas in which, I believe, it should be used. <BR /> <BR />I now come to the bedroom tax and my proposal to oppose clause 69; to do what I have consistently said that I would do and seek to vote down the bedroom tax. Undoubtedly, there have been some mixed signals about the bedroom tax. I know that the Minister and others were at pains yesterday to point out that commitments have been given on the bedroom tax, and that would seem to suggest that there is a consensus that it was a bad idea. For that reason, I will not rehearse all the arguments.”
“Whilst we have heard a lot about the Stormont House Agreement and how no one will be worse off, we have not been given the details as to how. There has been some suggestion that the Stormont Castle agreement set out the how: where the money will go and what that will look like. Some commitments have been made to publish that, but I have yet to see it. I am debating the Welfare Reform Bill today, and I go forward on the basis of protecting those who, it would appear, will lose out under the Bill if the assurances that they have been given are not met. <BR /> <BR />I want to make it clear from the outset that that is the approach that I have taken. I believe that it is the right approach. I accept that other parties have taken a different approach.”
“I have not sought to say that the benefits system should be more generous, although, of course, I would love to be able to say that. I have taken a responsible approach, and I have said that if we are to have the top-up and are committed to ensuring that no one will be worse off, let us put it in the Bill and give that guarantee. It is one thing to say it, but it is another to do it.”
“<BR /> <BR />My amendments are largely to ensure that people continue to receive the payments that they receive, albeit, in some cases, through a different mechanism such as universal credit as opposed to existing benefits. In some cases, they do not even go that far and not as far as I would like — I will talk about the ESA, for example — but would extend the provision that exists for a temporary period.”
“<BR /> <BR />I make no apology for the fact that there are costs to my amendments for the simple fact that the two major signatories to the Stormont House Agreement on either side of the House have given commitments that no one will be worse off under the Bill. With my amendments I have sought to put it in legislation that no one will be worse off under the Bill or that, at worst, there will be mitigation of the impacts where I believe that people will be worse off. When I am asked where the money comes from, I say the top-up payment. I say that not in a glib way but because I have been given assurances by the Minister, his Department and those on the other side of the House that it is sufficient to maintain the payments that people already receive.”