Steven Agnew
North Down · Green Party · Northern Ireland
“We need an independent, open and transparent process for investigating Ministers. I have always failed to understand the opposition to that from some in the House. Given recent events, if the Assembly was to oppose it again today, there would be public anger.”
“This process would involve one commissioner and one independent investigation, rather than a political investigation that, I have no doubt, some at the time called a witch-hunt, as is often said when people are defending their Minister.”
“I am delighted to make a winding-up speech on this debate, which has been the first-ever sole Green Party private Member's motion. Thanks to the election of my colleague, Clare Bailey, we have two Green MLAs, which has increased our ability to use the Assembly privileges to put such suggestions forward.”
“I absolutely agree, Mr Beggs. <BR /> <BR />Another point I will make is about the idea of the distinction between the Minister and the Department. When I was drafting my private Member's Bill, I asked, "Should that say 'Minister' or 'Department'?". The legal advice that I was given was that they are one and the same.”
“If an MLA is alleged to have breached the code, a member of the public can write to the standards commissioner and have their complaint investigated in an independent manner. The result of any investigation is published and can, if required, lead to a debate in the Assembly so that all the issues can be aired.”
“I would argue that it serves neither the Minister nor the public well that we do not have such a process. An individual who seeks to complain will be left frustrated if they feel that their concerns are ignored by those in office, who are supposed to act on their behalf.”
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“I see nothing in the Bill that addresses the problems that were identified in that report. Positive steps have been taken on the need for cooperation between Health and Education. One of the areas that was highlighted by the report was the lack of parallel planning between Health and Education for transitions from children to adult services, meaning that transitions could happen at different ages within the different systems, thus increasing the amount of disruption. When thinking about that, I always think about children with autism who really struggle with transition periods. The fact is that the lack of cooperative working between two of our Departments increases the difficulty for children with special educational needs.”
“I will not speak to the other amendments in any detail, other than to say that I support them. I will just make one final point in relation to what is not in the Bill. As the Minister and Committee members will be aware, the Children's Commissioner published a report in 2012 in relation to transitions for those with learning disabilities from child to adult services.”
“That is why I talk about corporate government. The Department of Education and the Department of Health are just two arms of government. They are publicly funded. The money is public money. The public want to see special educational needs provision being provided, and we need solutions rather than problems in that regard.”
“Whether it is done with this amendment or through the pooling of budgets in relation to special educational needs, we need to find the solutions, because the intent of the Bill is to ensure that the child is at the centre of the decision-making process. If that is truly to be the case, we should be looking at the child's needs and not at the needs of Departments to potentially protect their budgets and the continual disagreement that there appears to be in some of these cases as to whether Education or Health should fund it.”
“<BR /> <BR />We need to resolve this issue whereby it is clear that a child needs support, whether it is educational support or health support in an educational setting. At times, that provision is not forthcoming due to disagreement over which budget it should come out of. Departments need to remember that this is public money, and that, regardless of whether it is the Department of Health or the Department of Education, those who pay their taxes believe that the provision should be there to ensure that children with special educational needs are not left in the situation where their educational attainment is less than it could and should be because of the lack of provision of services due to wrangling over resources.”
“It was undoubtedly the case that the physiotherapy was necessary for her education, but, of course, it is provided by the Department of Health. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 7 puts a duty on the Department of Health to provide services where they are identified as being therapeutic and beneficial for a child, and that is to be welcomed. I can see from a departmental point of view that the term "beneficial" can be quite broad. Perhaps the phrase, "where it is required to achieve potential in education", or language along those lines may have made it more focused. I will be interested in the Minister's views, although it applies specifically to the Department of Health. However, speaking on behalf of the Executive, the Minister could perhaps give us his view on it.”
“I am certainly not opposed to amendment No 6 as drafted; I am just suggesting another way of achieving the same objective. <BR /> <BR />I welcome amendment No 7; I think it gets to the crux of some of the problems that have arisen, in my experience, in the provision of support for children with special educational needs. It concerns the wrangling that sometimes happens between Health and Education as to whose responsibility it is to provide for a child with special educational needs. I use the example from the Children's Law Centre of the girl with cerebral palsy who required daily physiotherapy whilst in school and was not provided with it due to a disagreement between Health and Education as to who should provide and fund it.”
“I suggested to the Committee that the amendment should perhaps be drafted to make it clear that any reporting does not have to be additional to what is required in the Children's Services Co-operation Bill. Making it explicit that it must be part of the existing reporting might help to move away from any criticisms of increased bureaucracy. That was a fear voiced about my Bill when it went through its initial stages and, in working with OFMDFM, I sought to ensure that any reporting was in line with existing reporting requirements rather than additional to them. That may have been a better way to approach amendment No 6. That said, I do not object to what is contained within it, and it will be up to the Committee whether it intends to move it. If it is not moved, perhaps a refined amendment could be tabled at Further Consideration Stage.”
“That is certainly additional to anything that is in my Bill. Whilst that may have been an outworking of the provisions in my Bill, it certainly was not a specific requirement of my Bill, and it is additional. Overall, I welcome amendment No 5. I thank the Committee for inviting me to give my input on it, and I think that it very much aligns with the Children's Services Co-operation Bill and would in no way contradict it. <BR /> <BR />I also gave my view on amendment No 6 to the Committee, and I will repeat it to the House. The preparation of a report on cooperation is important so that we have that internal self-assessment within Departments. The Children's Services Co-operation Bill requires reporting and requires Departments to cooperate with OFMDFM in the preparation of any report.”
“I certainly do not subscribe to the view that it would do harm to what was intended by my Bill. Amendment No 5 is very much within the same spirit as my Bill. It could be argued that there is duplication with some of the provisions in my Bill and paragraphs (1) and (5) of new article 12A but, overall, I think that the amendment adds detail to what was proposed in my Bill. I point specifically to paragraph (2), which, again, relates to information sharing. It is important that, where there is consent, information is shared and public agencies and Departments working together can, with the permission of the individuals involved, share information to ensure that cooperative working is effective. <BR /> <BR />There is a specific requirement in amendment No 5 to:”
“I have even heard anecdotal evidence of information not being shared within schools. When a child goes into a new class after the summer, the information is not always being passed on in full to the new teacher. That is perhaps not something for legislation but it needs to be looked at in terms of how special educational needs are managed within our schools, as well as the sharing of information between schools when a transfer happens, as highlighted in amendment Nos 3 and 4. I welcome the amendment but just make the point that there are other areas where information sharing could be beneficial to the child, with the proviso, of course, that it has the consent of the parent and/or pupil as appropriate. <BR /> <BR />I gave evidence to the Committee on how amendment No 5 would interact with the Children's Services Co-operation Bill.”
“We have guarded information — "jealously" is perhaps the wrong word — with the good intention of protecting the privacy of individuals, but sometimes that is done to their harm. This small step towards sharing of information between schools is to be welcomed. I ask the Minister whether information from assessments that have been provided by the family to the school will be shared with other schools.”
“Although the primary Department for my private Member's Bill was the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister, the Department of Health took an active role in its amending stages. Indeed, at Further Consideration Stage, there was input from the Finance Minister. I would like that Bill to be a model for more of the legislation coming through the House so that we get more Government than departmental Bills. <BR /> <BR />I come now to the amendments. I welcome amendments Nos 3 and 4 on the sharing of personal learning plans. I see in those amendments perhaps the beginning of a change of culture in policymaking. In seeking to protect data and to protect the individual from the sharing of private information, we have sometimes lost sight of the purpose of some of our statutory services.”
“I make that point about how we do government in Northern Ireland to the Minister but also to the Executive collectively: too often we think of Ministers in Departments and not enough of the Government and their collective corporate responsibility. <BR /> <BR />Issues were raised at Second Stage on the roles of other Departments. It is disappointing that, although ones were tabled by the Minister and the Committee, there were no amendments that I can see tabled through the Minister from other Departments. That is a criticism of the Departments that I have just mentioned for taking the attitude of, "This is the Department of Education's Bill, so we do not need to get involved".”
“I welcome the work of the Committee to address some of what is missing through seeking greater cooperation. The focus has inevitably been on the roles of the Department of Education and the Department of Health, but it is not just those Departments that have responsibility for children with special educational needs. There is a role for the Department of Justice, which provides education in juvenile justice centres, and for the Department for Employment and Learning in further and higher education and in the transition to those institutions from children's services. Therefore, although I welcome the focus on special educational needs, the fact that, yet again, a cross-departmental issue is being taken forward through a single departmental approach goes to the heart of how we do government here.”
“Despite the time that it has taken for the Bill to come to the Assembly — the consultation was in 2009, and discussions took place before that — it would appear that, in all that time, the effort was not made to get Departments around the table to produce a Bill. Instead, we have a Bill from a single Department.”
“On behalf of the Green Party, I welcome the Bill. I will speak specifically to a number of the amendments. This is one of those cases when I welcome what is in the Bill but am disappointed by what is omitted. It goes back to some of what I said at Second Stage. <BR /> <BR />What is disappointing is that we have a Department of Education Bill for special educational needs, when what we need is an Executive Bill. SEN and disability are not the remit of one Department: they cut across a number of Departments. Much of the conversation today has been about the need for Departments to cooperate, but the leadership has to come from the top — in other words, from the Executive.”
“The Member made the point that the Education Department and the Health Department need to sit down in advance of Further Consideration Stage. Does he not agree that that should have happened in advance of the Bill being brought to the House?”
“Indeed, we must give certainty to investors who want to invest in renewable and low-carbon technologies that this is the trajectory and that this region and this Government are committed to taking action on climate change. In response to Mr Wilson: I am so vain; I do think that climate change is about me. I think that it is about you and about all of us, and we need to act now.”
“I cannot give way any further because of time constraints. <BR /> <BR />Mr Allister made a point that world poverty would somehow be increased because we are going to prevent poorer nations from developing. I will give him the benefit of the doubt and put it down to ignorance rather than deception, because the very central point of the Paris talks is about contraction and convergence: we meet those poorer countries halfway, reduce our emissions and allow them to increase theirs so that we have equity across the globe to tackle poverty and ensure that the developing world, which has suffered as a result of our lifestyle, does not continue to do so and that we have fair distribution. <BR /> <BR />On the point that we, as a small country or region, cannot or should not act, I say that we must act.”
“Mr Allister's point that climate change is somehow cyclical, that that has not been taken account of by the greatest scientists around the globe and that this would be news to 97% of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change is up there with the people who told me, when we had the volcano eruptions, that volcanoes were causing climate change. The IPCC is well aware of volcanoes and cyclical climate change; the evidence is about human-caused climate change. That is what we are talking about and is what we need to tackle.”
“The Member did not get an opportunity to speak, so I will give way.”
“Instead of subsidising clean, green, renewable energy, we provide £32 million for gas to the west and subsidise a gas power station at Ballylumford that puts 1% on every energy bill, including the large energy users that the Member is a great defender of. We are subsidising that at the same time as withdrawing subsidies for renewables. We still have a target of 100% of Housing Executive homes being heated by gas while the rest of the world is coming to the conclusion that we need a future that is fossil-free.”
“What if we did not have a DUP energy Minister? <BR /> <BR />The Member made arguments about tying people's hands, the threat of legislation and the danger of going down that road. He suggested that we were already on the right trajectory. I am sorry to the Member, but if his view of the right trajectory is scrapping the green new deal to insulate people's homes and tackle fuel poverty, and switching instead to a subsidy for the gas industry and withdrawing subsidies from renewables, which are not a threat to farmers — in fact, the Ulster Farmers' Union is legally challenging that — it is not a view that I share.”
“What if it is all a hoax and we make the world a better place for nothing? What if we insulate our housing stock and prevent the atrocity that is more people dying in Northern Ireland due to winter-related deaths than in Finland, where temperatures are much colder? What if we switch from pollutant fossil fuels and reduce the 500 deaths a year in Northern Ireland due to air pollution? What if we cut congestion? What if we did all those things and climate change is, as Mr Allister would suggest, something that we could not affect?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Does he not agree that all of that has been put under threat with the withdrawal of subsidies for wind energy?”
“We have a target of 100% Housing Executive homes on gas. At the same time, other nations are committing to a fossil-free future. We are still subsidising fossil fuels and, at the same time, withdrawing subsidies for renewables. We are going in the opposite direction of many other countries. <BR /> <BR />So, we have the evidence. We need to move on from the somewhat facile debate about whether climate change is happening or whether it is caused by human activity. We need to act quickly, and we need to act now. We need a Northern Ireland climate Act.”
“He was very clear that the benefits of strong, early action on climate change outweigh the costs. We need legislation so that we can have some certainty on our policy direction. Approximately 35,000 jobs in Northern Ireland are in the low-carbon and environmental services sector, and we have seen recently, with the debacle around renewable energy subsidies, that 10,000 jobs could be at risk in that sector due to our inability to agree a way forward on subsidising renewable energy. I know that people will point to the costs, but I will come to evidence. The IMF has estimated that, globally, subsidies for fossil fuels are at $5·3 trillion, despite the evidence that they are one of the number one causes of climate change. If we look at Northern Ireland alone, we see that the new gas power plant at Ballylumford put 1% on bills.”
“It is often not environmental groups such as Friends of the Earth, the RSPB or Northern Ireland Environment Link that are making the loudest calls for action on climate change but our aid agencies, our Churches and or missionaries who are going out to Africa and developing nations elsewhere and are seeing the impacts of climate change on poverty, not in the future but today. <BR /> <BR />It is no longer something that we talk about that might happen. It is something that is happening, and, in Paris, our leaders will be seeking not to prevent climate change, because it is too late for that, but to mitigate its worst impacts and keep temperature rises below 2°C. <BR /> <BR />I have mentioned the social element and the environmental element, but there is, of course, an economic element. I come back to Lord Stern's report.”
“<BR /> <BR />This is often presented as an environmental issue, and, of course, it is, but, as I always say, the planet will survive. Life as we know it for humans and animals may not, but the planet itself will survive anything that we can do to it. The social justice element of this issue should not be lost in the House. It is unfortunate that those who have probably done least to cause climate change are those who will be affected most by its consequences. A briefing paper from Oxfam says:”
“This month, we have had storm Abigail, storm Barney and storm Clodagh. It is undoubted that freak weather events, as they were once called, are increasingly becoming commonplace, and we are seeing the effects here in Northern Ireland. It is not just flooding that will impact on us. Increasing global food prices can result from changing climate, as farming in many parts of the world may no longer be sustainable. We will see environmental refugees having to move from land that was once fit for growing food crops and is no longer so due to increased drought or, indeed, flooding. We are starting to see some of the commentary on some of our global conflicts focus on the fact that reducing resources is starting to fuel some of those global conflicts. Again, climate change is leading to greater instability in the world.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention, and, all along, I have recommended that all Members take on board scientific evidence and the views of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which presents peer-reviewed science. Whilst individuals may make claims, there is that collective consensus, which has been around 1990 and, indeed, since 1896, when the first causal link was made between carbon and climate. There is that consensus, rather than some of the individual claims that may not bear out to be true. All of the claims that we would see more extreme weather, greater drought and greater flooding have been proven to be true. <BR /> <BR />When we discussed this motion previously, it was on the back of serious flooding in Northern Ireland and a call to action to mitigate the flooding that we experienced.”
“Now that we no longer have the former Member for East Antrim, I thought that I might get through this speech without an interjection. I hope that the Member is not going to be another climate denier from East Antrim, but I am willing to give way.”
“He made the point then, and it persists today, that the sooner we act, the less costly it will be, both in human and financial terms. Each year that the Assembly delays in taking action and in bringing forward a climate Bill, we increase the inevitable costs that we will face as a result of climate change.”
“While we are committed under the UK Climate Change Act 2008 we have no specific Northern Ireland targets that are legally binding. The question I have to ask the Minister — and I do not aim it at him personally, but as the representative of the Executive in the debate — is this: what has been done since that debate and what action has been taken? This will be discussed over the forthcoming weeks; it is an urgent situation. <BR /> <BR />Climate change has been discussed for decades now, but with each passing year the situation becomes more grave. As Lord Stern pointed out in 2006:”
“I rise to compel the House to support the introduction of a climate change Bill. As the Committee Chairperson mentioned, world leaders will gather in Paris over the next two weeks to discuss climate change and seek agreement on international efforts to keep temperature rises below two degrees Celsius globally, the commonly-agreed point at which climate change becomes dangerous climate change. I am delighted that our Environment Minister will be there, and it is important that Northern Ireland plays its part. We have to take our responsibility seriously as, in international terms, a wealthy nation. <BR /> <BR />I remind the House that in February 2014 we agreed that we needed to pass a climate Bill. I ask the House not to row back on that call to the Executive to bring forward legislation specific to Northern Ireland.”
“Those are the change in the number of Departments, a reduction in the number of MLAs and the change in the electoral system.”
“<BR /> <BR />We are very much in support of reform. I suspect that, in practice, the May 2016 elections come too soon for implementation of the type of reforms that we would like to see, but, in principle, we have no objection to it. We have consistently argued that good, efficient government can take place, but a number of things need to happen concurrently.”
“There would be a threshold to be met before any party would get representation in the Assembly. In Germany, for example, that is 5% of the vote. That could be the type of thing that we would look at. We should ensure that we do not end up reducing the diversity of voices and the benefits that are brought, particularly given our system, by having voices from outside Government. <BR /> <BR />The issue of the representation of women has been raised, and, just to correct Ms Ruane, her party is not the only one that supports quotas. The Green Party is in favour of quotas and implements them in its own party selections for elections, and there will be a minimum of one-third female Green Party candidates for the next Assembly election. It is something that we believe in, practice and would like to see implemented in Assembly elections.”
“<BR /> <BR />For those reasons, the Green Party has argued that, if we reduce the number of MLAs, there should not just be a reduction in the number of Departments, but it should be accompanied by a change in the electoral system to have a top-up system, as they do in Scotland and Germany, to ensure that we keep the diversity of voices.”
“Perhaps we are the naughty corner because we are forever challenging the teachers, which is quite a good thing. Look at the record of me and Mr Allister in asking Assembly questions: Mr Allister has asked 272, and I have asked 207 — more than the whole of the Alliance Party. That is not an end in itself, but it is challenging and questioning Ministers. In a party of government, you may have less incentive to ask questions when the information may be more readily available. If you look at the private Members' Bills that have come forward from Mr McCallister, Mr Allister and me, again we perform a valuable function in the Assembly.”
“There you go: the Alliance Party has assured me that I will be elected under five seats, regardless. I certainly do not want to discount myself from the next election, regardless how many seats there are per constituency. <BR /> <BR />If the previous election had been run under five seats per constituency, as Mr McCartney mentioned, we could have had a five-party Government and no Back-Benchers outside the governing parties. That is something that we should be concerned about. There is a balance to be struck. Good government should be efficient and cost-effective; equally, it should be diverse in its voices and representations. <BR /> <BR />This corner of the House has been referred to as various things, including "the naughty corner".”
“<BR /> <BR />The other thing I would say is that we need a diversity of voices. I want to make it clear that I am not intending to be vying for the sixth seat in the next election; I hope to —”
“The first question that we each should ask ourselves is what makes good governance. My party's position has consistently been that we can reduce the number of MLAs but it must go alongside a reduction in the number of Departments. I know that has been agreed in principle, but we have yet to see it realised. That is to ensure that we have enough MLAs to do the job. We already have Members sitting on two or three Committees; if we reduced the number of MLAs without concurrently reducing the number of Departments, that would undermine our ability as MLAs to carry out the important function of challenging Departments through the Committees. I support a reduction in the number of MLAs, although I am not so exercised by whether it will be in 2016 or 2021. I have no problem supporting the motion.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. I accept that level 2 and 3 courses can be provided at colleges, but does he not accept that such provision will not suit many people? I give the example from when I worked in the Simon Community of a young person coming out of a juvenile justice centre. The colleges do not have the flexibility to take them on then and there, although education may be the thing that keeps them from reoffending.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. He outlined a number of things, including investment in skills and investment in early years. How does he envisage us making an increased investment in those areas while, at the same time, voluntarily cutting our income by £300 million a year?”
“<BR /> <BR />While I give my cautious welcome to the increased top-up budget and wait to hear a reply to my questions from the Minister, I cannot support the LCM today, as it gives further power to a Government who have done nothing but attack the poor, the vulnerable and the low-paid.”
“It seems that that ties in with the narrative of the establishment of the working group under the leadership of Professor Eileen Evason to make the difficult decisions on who gets and who loses out so that, again, the parties of our Executive — in particular, the DUP and Sinn Féin — can wash their hands and, indeed, wring their hands when unpopular decisions are made. They can say, "Well, that wasn't us, and, in fact, we're opposed to that decision". My comments are no reflection on Professor Evason but a reflection of how I believe good governance should take place. It should be open and transparent, and decisions should be taken in an accountable manner.”
“I am not compelled by the argument that there was not enough time to pass legislation through the Assembly. I have to question the motivation for presenting us with an LCM today rather than another welfare reform Bill. The DUP and Sinn Féin, who have agreed the provisions outlined in the document released yesterday, have the numbers to push the legislation through. Legislation can pass through the House within three months, which is the time available to us, so I ask whether it is a lack of trust that both sides — the DUP and Sinn Féin — will stick to the agreement. Is it an unwillingness to allow the level of scrutiny that it would receive should it come through the House? Is it simply, as Mr Allister suggested, that parties want to pass the LCM today and then blame the Conservative Government for passing the legislation in Westminster?”
“We will have the very strange situation that, if there is deemed to be underoccupancy, we will cut someone's benefits and then top them up again. If we had the power in our own hands, legislated ourselves and ensured that our legislation did not include the bedroom tax, we would simply not apply that cut to people's benefits and would not have the ludicrous situation that we take with one hand and give back with the other. That is inefficient, and, my fear is that it will only pertain in the relatively short term and we will see the bedroom tax introduced in Northern Ireland in the future.”