Steven Agnew
North Down · Green Party · Northern Ireland
“We need an independent, open and transparent process for investigating Ministers. I have always failed to understand the opposition to that from some in the House. Given recent events, if the Assembly was to oppose it again today, there would be public anger.”
“This process would involve one commissioner and one independent investigation, rather than a political investigation that, I have no doubt, some at the time called a witch-hunt, as is often said when people are defending their Minister.”
“I am delighted to make a winding-up speech on this debate, which has been the first-ever sole Green Party private Member's motion. Thanks to the election of my colleague, Clare Bailey, we have two Green MLAs, which has increased our ability to use the Assembly privileges to put such suggestions forward.”
“I absolutely agree, Mr Beggs. <BR /> <BR />Another point I will make is about the idea of the distinction between the Minister and the Department. When I was drafting my private Member's Bill, I asked, "Should that say 'Minister' or 'Department'?". The legal advice that I was given was that they are one and the same.”
“If an MLA is alleged to have breached the code, a member of the public can write to the standards commissioner and have their complaint investigated in an independent manner. The result of any investigation is published and can, if required, lead to a debate in the Assembly so that all the issues can be aired.”
“I would argue that it serves neither the Minister nor the public well that we do not have such a process. An individual who seeks to complain will be left frustrated if they feel that their concerns are ignored by those in office, who are supposed to act on their behalf.”
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“For me, it is a no-brainer, but what could be seen as a divisive issue was tackled maturely when the public view was sought. We also have a forthcoming referendum on our position in the European Union. I do not believe that you can ever have too much democracy, but I believe that, in Northern Ireland, we risk having a democratic deficit each time we tinker with the Good Friday Agreement without going back to the people. <BR /> <BR />Unlike the SDLP, perhaps, I am not opposed to major reform. I think that it is needed. It was the right agreement and the right deal to get us to this stage, but we need change to get us to the next stage and to get us through the next phase of our peace process. However, we must bring the people with us in doing that.”
“<BR /> <BR />However, I have said all along that any major changes to what was agreed by the people of Northern Ireland through referendum should be put to the people of Northern Ireland to pass at a referendum. It is their agreement, it was the people's agreement, and it should not be changed without the people's consent. Much of this would require Westminster legislation, and I would call on the Secretary of State to ensure that the public's consent be sought before we would seek to radically reform the institutions created under the Good Friday Agreement. <BR /> <BR />We have seen a referendum in Scotland that re-energised politics. We have seen a public vote in the Republic of Ireland on the thorny issue of equal marriage, although I do not believe that it should be a thorny issue.”
“Indeed, I turned 18 approximately a month before the referendum, and my first ever vote was casting a yes vote then. It was a proud day and I was optimistic, but I think that the hope, the expectation and the potential have, to some extent, been wasted. Whilst we have moved from conflict to relative peace, we have yet to make the step towards good governance. I think that the Bill will help us to take the next step on that journey. I have consistently said, from the fifteenth anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement, that, yes, we need to review it; yes, we need to reform the institutions; and, yes, we need to revitalise our peace process.”
“<BR /> <BR />There is an inherently undemocratic nature to the petition of concern whereby we have two tiers of MLAs: those who choose to designate as unionist or nationalist, whose vote counts in normal votes and in cross-community votes; and we have the bizarre situation whereby, as the leader of a cross-community party, my vote does not count in a cross-community vote. The votes of my constituents are worth no less than those of any other Member. We cannot have a system of two-tier MLAs, and we cannot have a system of enshrined sectarianism. If we are to move away from the politics of "us and them", we have to stop designating as us and them. <BR /> <BR />We are 17 years on from the Good Friday Agreement, of which I was a wholehearted supporter.”
“I very much welcome the proposal to end community designation. The Green Party was very supportive of the Good Friday Agreement, but our one consistent criticism of it was the enshrining of the sectarian nature of Northern Ireland politics in these institutions by requiring community designation on election for each MLA. That was regrettable. We know that the other element, the petition of concern, has very much deviated from its original purpose of protecting minority rights, and has, indeed, at times been used to try to prevent the extension of rights to minorities. At times, it has undermined the purpose that it sought to serve. We must move on from that and move away from community designation.”
“<BR /> <BR />Whilst, like Mr Allister, I would welcome a move towards voluntary coalition and think that it is the next logical step, I perhaps will not be so harsh in my commentary on the Bill. While it is not the whole journey of normalising politics in Northern Ireland, it is a major step forward in that regard.”
“You can complain about any Member in the House — we are all subject to the Commissioner for Standards and the Committee on Standards and Privileges in our MLA duties — but, if you want to complain about a Minister, you can write to the party leader, but there is no investigation mechanism or structures through which there can be accountability and transparency in holding Ministers to the standards set out in the ministerial code of conduct. That, unfortunately, is not in the Bill, and I ask the Member and, indeed, the Assembly and Executive Review Committee, to look at that. If we are to have collective responsibility, we also need ministerial accountability and a mechanism for that, and that is something that could and should be explored through the Committee and at Consideration Stage.”
“That is why we have such problems even with the language necessary to hold Executive parties to account. No one knows who is in government and who is out of government, because every party, when it suits, acts as if it is in opposition. Collective responsibility is necessary to change that. <BR /> <BR />Another element of that is the oversight of the ministerial code. I sit on the Standards and Privileges Committee, and we have written to the First Minister and deputy First Minister seeking clarification of how we uphold the ministerial code. It is outside the remit of the Standards and Privileges Committee and of the Commissioner for Standards. There is no mechanism to complain about a Minister.”
“If ever examples of why collective responsibility is important in any Government were needed, Northern Ireland could provide them. You have one Minister taking another Minister to court at the taxpayers' expense to play out disagreements that should be resolved and moved on from at the Executive table. Instead, our dirty linen is washed in the courts; party political squabbles are played out in the courts at the taxpayers' expense. Again, that is an example of failure and of where things need to change in Northern Ireland. Mr Allister is fond of saying that we have no opposition; I think sometimes that the problem is that everyone is in opposition. When one Minister makes a decision, another Minister or another party of the Executive challenges that publicly.”
“Now it is fundamental to democracy that the opposition challenge the Programme for Government. Yet it was not within the Speaker's power to grant those on the opposition Benches speaking rights to question the First Minister and deputy First Minister on the programme they had outlined. Instead, we had the farce of prepared questions from Back-Benchers in the government parties asking, effectively, "Why is this such a great Programme for Government?". That is not democracy or evidence of a functioning Assembly. Speaking rights are necessary. People might ask, "What difference will a formal opposition make?". That is one of the differences: the right to challenge, the right to speak and the right to propose motions are essential.”
“Mr McCartney referred to the possibility that legislation might not be required for all elements of the Bill and said that, if there were other ways, we should explore them. However, it has taken an opposition Member to introduce a Bill that might act as the spur to make those changes happen. <BR /> <BR />One aspect of the Bill that I very much welcome is increased speaking rights for an opposition, not just from the point of view of self-interest. I like the sound of my own voice, but I do not think that it needs to be put in legislation that I should speak more. If you go back, for example, to when the Programme for Government was presented to the Assembly, not one Member outside the Executive parties got to question the First Minister or the deputy First Minister on the presentation of the Programme for Government.”
“<BR /> <BR />The failure of the Executive — the "Northern Ireland Government", as we would refer to it should we pass the Bill — is shown by the current dearth of legislation from the Executive and Departments. Rather, we are addressing private Members' Bills, such as John's, Mr Allister's and mine. Today, Mr McCallister seeks to create an opposition. On these Benches, despite the barriers of the structures, we are doing all in our power to create an effective opposition by tabling legislation in the absence of legislation from the Northern Ireland Government. It is an example of the failure of the Assembly and Executive Review Committee that, whilst there seems to be large support for some of the proposals, those who sit on that Committee could not agree to put forward similar proposals.”
“I also commend Mr McCallister for introducing the legislation. I know the difficulties involved in preparing a private Member's Bill, and, as the sponsor said, my Bill will soon have its Third Reading. Reforming the institutions is a difficult and large piece of work to take on. It is certainly ambitious and innovative. I suspect that when Mr McCallister put forward some of his proposals, he was told, "You cannot do that. It is not legislatively competent". I do not know who helped him with the Bill or how he got to this stage, but the mechanism of the Assembly and Executive reform motion is, to me, certainly a new way around that, and the Member is to be commended for bringing forward that element of it.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I welcome the Secretary of State's commitment to listen to the views of the House. Given the Member's enthusiasm for the Good Friday Agreement and given that it was passed by referendum, does he not agree that it is not just the support of this House that should be required but that of the people?”
“I am just delighted that we have the opportunity to be there. I wish the Republic of Ireland team well in its qualification. The result against Germany was a tremendous one. I hope that it is able to qualify as well. I would also like to wish the Irish rugby team continued success in the Rugby World Cup. It is good to get talking about football in the Assembly Chamber, albeit briefly. I look forward to talking about it much more when the World Cup kicks off.”
“<BR /> <BR />We had the Lawrie Sanchez and David Healy period, of which we have fantastic memories of fantastic victories — I think in particular of David Healy's hat-trick against Spain — but we fell short of qualification. It may have looked as though qualification for a major tournament was going to elude us for many years to come, but Michael O'Neill came forward and has done a fantastic job. Kyle Lafferty has filled the hero role that David Healy held. Even when we did not have Kyle Lafferty for the game against Greece, who would have thought that Steven Davis would score an 18-yard header, or any sort of header for that matter. It was a shock, and a very welcome one. <BR /> <BR />I look forward to France with most Northern Ireland fans' usual mixed feeling of absolute excitement and trepidation.”
“I cannot help remembering back to, "Here we go, Mexico". It was certainly the first football occasion, the first World Cup, that I got excited about as a child. I am delighted that another generation of young people will be excited and inspired once again by the Northern Ireland football team. <BR /> <BR />I was fortunate to be at Michael O'Neill's first game at Windsor Park against Norway. I remember the first half, feeling the excitement coming back and seeing the good, attractive football that the team started to play under Michael O'Neill . Unfortunately the result was disappointing that night. Indeed, we had a period of disappointing results in the early part of his management, but he stuck true to what he believed in, brought the players and fans with him and has now clearly brought the results with him.”
“<BR /> <BR />I would also like to add my condolences to the families of those shot dead in Louth, including police officer Anthony Golden. It really does seem to have been a tragic weekend on this island in terms of casualties. So, on behalf of the Green Party in Northern Ireland, I would like to echo the words of other Members and recognise what has been a saddening weekend.”
“I would like to add, on behalf of the Green Party in Northern Ireland, my condolences to the families of the 10 Travellers, who, unfortunately, died as a result of this horrific fire. It continues to be the case that Travellers are one of the most discriminated against groups in our society, and, whilst it is easy, as we have seen too often in our history, to label groups, and to dismiss their rights and their needs when doing so, an incident such as this should remind us of the humanity of any individual in any community; in this case, the Travelling community. Hopefully, today we stand and speak in sympathy and, going forward, can act in a similar manner, to ensure that the Travelling community in Northern Ireland and across the island of Ireland receives proper treatment and equality within our society.”
“I hope that my private Member's Bill to require a duty on government to cooperate will help in that regard and that we can start to tackle the historical problem of delays in diagnosis for autism.”
“In my son's school, Bangor Central Integrated Primary School, many of the teaching aids that would be used for a child with autism are being used for the whole class, because the methods of teaching are valid regardless of whether a child has autism or not. We need to start from the basis of assuming that there is an autistic child or autistic children in every class and putting those supports in place. <BR /> <BR />That does not get away from the need for diagnosis, which will ensure that not just the educational provisions but the health provisions and, if necessary, the support for families at home are put in place, and that the resources are directed towards the child and the family. This work needs to be cross-departmental for us to get it right.”
“This is exactly the type of area where that kind of cooperation is, in my view, essential. We should have an Executive Bill on special educational needs; it has to be across Health and Education. Indeed, we should be bemoaning not only the fact that we do not have the Health Minister here today but the fact that the Education Minister is not here to hear the debate, as he was explicitly mentioned in the motion. If one is not available or is choosing not to be in post at this time, perhaps another Minister could step forward for children and those with autism. <BR /> <BR />I have seen some good practice. Diagnosis is important, and it is essential in ensuring that the necessary supports are put in place, but we have to assume now, with the increased levels of knowledge around autism, that there is a child with autism in every school class.”
“You do not have to be famous to be brilliant or to contribute to society. In everyday life, I know personally a number of people with autism whose condition gives them abilities and skills that can be admired. We have to ensure that we put supports in place at an early age to ensure the potential that exists in all children, whether autistic or otherwise, to achieve and to contribute to society. We must ensure that we do not waste that potential. <BR /> <BR />I made reference, in my previous intervention, to the Special Educational Needs and Disability Bill, as I have concerns that something that is so cross-departmental is coming from one Department. An earlier strategy, the draft early years strategy, was the genesis of my private Member's Bill to require cooperation between Departments.”
“<BR /> <BR />Language is very often important in these debates, and I know that ASD — autistic spectrum disorder — is a current term of usage in the health service, but I also know that a number of people with autism would object to the term "disorder", preferring "autistic spectrum condition" or simply "autistic", because, of course, although people with autism are not what we would call neurotypical, we do not want to assume that it is a form of disease or disorder to be treated. Indeed, many celebrated people throughout our society and some notable names — Einstein, Mozart and, more contemporarily, Tim Burton — are often viewed as people with autism who have made a tremendous contribution to our society. I think that each one of us will know people in our own life.”
“Over the last number of years, I have highlighted the poor performance and the delays in diagnosis for children with autism or other special educational needs in the south-eastern region. Mr Allister has brought figures today to show that the south-eastern region has the smallest number of clinicians qualified to diagnose autism. Behind the figures is the wasted potential, or at least the risk of wasted potential, on a day when we hear of yet another report being released about educational underachievement. I think that this is at the crux of that issue. The early diagnosis of, and early intervention in, conditions such as autism is essential to ensuring that every child meets his or her full potential.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I certainly welcome the benefits of the Special Educational Needs and Disability Bill, but does he not find it regrettable, given the amendment that his party tried to submit, that it is a Bill of the Department of Education and not of the Executive?”
“<BR /> <BR />By and large, I support what is in front of us, I support the spirit and intent of it, and I look forward to its swift passage through the Assembly.”
“Credit unions were there, humble but sustainable, providing an alternative form of credit; one based on need, not greed and, as I say, for the community, not for the wealth of individuals. <BR /> <BR />As a member of the Committee for Enterprise, Trade and Investment, I look forward to the line-by-line scrutiny of the Bill . We have already started that process and taken briefings from the Irish League of Credit Unions and the Ulster Federation of Credit Unions. It is an important piece of work and, as will be apparent to the Minister, there is still a degree of concern about the legislation on corporate membership. I think that, with collaborative work between the two credit union bodies, the Committee and the Department, hopefully we can get consensus and get that part of the legislation right.”
“I believe that the Bill is the next step in the evolution of credit unions to ensure that they can modernise, adapt and indeed step in. The greater the success of credit unions, the harder it will be for loan sharks and payday lenders to prey on the poorest and most vulnerable in our communities. Strong credit unions and a strong credit union movement will be to the benefit of our society. <BR /> <BR />The role of credit unions very much contrasts with that of the banks. They have remained stable while banks were playing fast and loose with our money and were engaged in casino-style investment practices. Banks required a bailout while, at the top end, they were receiving inordinate salaries and bonuses.”
“Whilst individually a credit union will not change the face of the Northern Ireland economy, I would argue that the many credit unions that we have are a bedrock for many local communities and their economies and serve them very well. <BR /> <BR />This is an important piece of legislation, and I welcome the fact that the Minister is here to move the Second Stage, as it gives hope that, should the talks be successful in bringing back a degree of normality to these institutions, this piece of legislation should be able to make it through its various stages in the course of this mandate. <BR /> <BR />I would like to put on record my praise of the work of credit unions, their staff and their volunteers. Credit unions are created by the community for the community.”
“At the outset, I declare an interest as a member of Bangor Credit Union. <BR /> <BR />I think that it is understandable that political points have been made in the context that we are in — indeed, it would almost seem strange to address today's debate without mentioning something of the political context. However, this is the second time that the Bill has been scheduled, and perhaps I would have prepared more for it had I been sure that it would be moved today, so there has been a degree of disrespect to the Assembly, yet what I would not do, and what I find regrettable, is the belittling somehow of this piece of legislation and, perhaps as a consequence, the perceived belittling of credit unions. They play a vital role in our communities.”
“I thank the junior Minister for her answer and the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister for its ongoing cooperation with me on my private Member's Bill. It has been beneficial and is appreciated. <BR /> <BR />One of the key elements of the Bill is the pooling of resources between Departments. What discussion has there been with the Department of Finance to ensure that this element can be progressed once the Bill, hopefully, passes through the Assembly?”
“What is being done to ensure that childcare providers are properly trained in the area of special educational needs?”
“I specifically thank Children in Northern Ireland and its membership, the Children's Commissioner and her team and, indeed, the Children's Law Centre, all of which have been working for, calling for and driving the calls for this legislation or something similar to it. I know that there will be many watching: I hope they feel that the Assembly has listened, that we have stepped up and that we will take action to end the waste that is created by duplication and end the wasted opportunities and potential that poverty and the other consequences of lack of support for children and families create. I hope that, with the Bill, we can achieve better outcomes for children in Northern Ireland.”
“I am sympathetic to those, like me, who want the Bill to be as strong as it can be, but I think the accountability of reporting, the accountability to the Assembly, the accountability to Committees and the accountability to the public — indeed, I referred to the powers of the Children's Commission — are, in the first instance, what the Departments will pay regard to. However, the threat of judicial review is not a minor threat. It is one that Departments are mindful of, and it is, in that regard, a useful tool for holding Departments to account. <BR /> <BR />To conclude, I thank all Members for their contributions.”
“If it is a fine on the Executive, the Executive do not promote cooperation. Who fines the Executive? What are we fining, and how does it help? Why would we fine Departments? Where would the money go? What is the incentive? <BR /> <BR />Looking through legislation, I think that judicial review is the normal mechanism of sanction. It is legal action. Whilst it might not be ideal, short of any alternative proposals coming forward, I was at a loss as to how I could put sanctions into the Bill that would be constructive and beneficial in achieving the proposals contained in the Bill.”
“We have the research and the evidence: invest early and you get better outcomes. Whether it is health, justice, education or employment, it is for the betterment of society to invest in the early years of a child's development. If we put in the support then, we could avoid many of the problems that dog our society, whether that is poverty, crime or educational underachievement. <BR /> <BR />Another criticism of the Bill that came from both the Chair of the Committee and Mr McCallister was on the lack of sanctions. That is something that I looked at. I looked across legislation, and, whilst I can understand the compulsion to have some sort of punitive sanction in there, I was at a loss to find any good examples. How do we put a punishment on the Executive or even individual Departments in legislation? Do we fine them?”
“<BR /> <BR />I welcome Sandra Overend's comments as UUP spokesperson for children, and I welcome her work. There was a reference to the work of the Assembly, not just the Executive, and the work that private Members, including Mrs Overend, do on child protection and Internet safety. When we take the Bill, along with her work and the work on children's budgeting that Chris Lyttle is engaged in, we see an Assembly that is interested in children's issues and seeks to make progress on improving outcomes. That constructive relationship between the Assembly and the Executive can only be a good thing. <BR /> <BR />Roy Beggs referred to the work of Professor Heckman, and that, too, underpins what the Bill is about. If we get the processes and the vehicles for delivery right, we can intervene earlier and more effectively.”
“The reverse of that is getting it right and making a real difference to the lives of children to help them to maximise their potential, realise their opportunities and tackle the disadvantage that comes from poverty and other societal issues. <BR /> <BR />Chris Hazzard referred to the extent of the silo mentality in government and to the report on barriers to effective governance by the Children's Commissioner. One of its conclusions was that we needed a statutory duty to cooperate. In introducing the Bill, I came forward with an idea that had the backing of the sector, that emerged from the sector and on which the sector had produced significant research. Barriers to effective governance was just one piece of research conducted by Queen's and commissioned by the Children's Commissioner that pointed to that.”
“I pay tribute, too, to another contributor, Roy Beggs, who chaired the group when I was a researcher for Brian Wilson and sat on the group representing him. That is where these ideas were kicked around. The group, under Mr Beggs's chairmanship, took the issue to the then junior Ministers and has raised it consistently. I am delighted that the Bill has come to the Chamber and is receiving the support that I believe it deserves. I further congratulate Chris Lyttle on his work on children's budgeting. He referred to, I think, a UN comment — the failure to achieve positive outcomes for children is one of our greatest mistakes — and I think that that is right. I have talked about wasted opportunity and wasted potential, and that is the result when government structures fail children.”
“As I said, I felt that it was more important to progress the Bill than to worry too much about the choreography. I hope that, in my contributions, I have given credit where it is due — to all stakeholders. Whilst, in title, this is a private Member's Bill from Steven Agnew, it is very much a collaborative Bill with stakeholders, including OFMDFM, the other Departments, the Committee and the children's sector. <BR /> <BR />Chris Lyttle referred to the work of the all-party group for children and young people, the secretariat of which is provided by Children in Northern Ireland. The genesis of the Bill emerged from that all-party group, and I pay tribute to Chris Lyttle's chairing of it.”
“<BR /> <BR />Although I think that he was speaking as an Alliance Party member, the Deputy Chair of the Committee, Chris Lyttle, lamented the lack of ministerial response. Although I am saddened by that, I will not get into the wider politics too much because my focus is on getting the Bill passed, but, because there has been so much constructive work by OFMDFM and the other Departments in engaging with the Bill, it would have been good, as a private Member and a Back-Bencher, to have been standing alongside the junior Ministers in bringing forward the Bill and the amendments, because they and their office have worked constructively on it.”
“It was worth highlighting because while the drafting of the Bill is about process, its ambition is about changing children's lives for the better and reducing the wasted opportunities and potential that might arise from a lack of support for some of the children who are in need in our society. I thought that highlighting the failures of governance on child poverty was beneficial. <BR /> <BR />Mr Attwood referred to the Scottish model and Scotland's more integrated approach. I took time to meet the Scottish Minister, Aileen Campbell, and to hear about the work of the Children and Young People (Scotland) Act 2014. It very much follows the approach of a statutory duty to cooperate. In that regard, Northern Ireland, in introducing this Bill, would be following a similar track to that taken by England in 2004 and Scotland more recently.”
“There is a feeling that, if the requirement to report is taken away from the Department, it might have the unintended consequence of taking away the desire to put the Bill's requirements in place. <BR /> <BR />I believe that those were the main comments on specific clauses. However, I will touch briefly on points that were made that I thought added positively to the debate. Alex Attwood highlighted child poverty rates in Northern Ireland. While the Bill is not specifically about child poverty, it has the ambition of helping in strategies to combat child poverty, ensuring that the child poverty strategy is joined up and that Departments work to tackle the issue in a joined-up fashion.”
“The Chair of the Committee mentioned an issue that was raised by stakeholders: whether there should be an independent report on the Bill's effectiveness. I have looked at the issue, as I told the Committee that I would. I did not find a great desire for the Bill to include a requirement for an independent report, but it was pointed out that it was well within the powers and remit of the Children's Commissioner to produce such a report. That ability is already there, and, when I spoke to the commissioner, I got the impression that the commission is keen to produce a report on the Bill alongside that of the Department rather than instead of it. The present commissioner and previous commissioner have both been very supportive of the Bill. The commission has produced research that points to the need for a statutory duty to cooperate.”
“I have sought to find a balance, but perhaps the initial impetus is that there is something that could be looked at to ensure that the urgency of the Bill is not lost in a reporting time frame that may allow too much time to come to terms with it.”
“I make note, however, of Mr Attwood's point that perhaps if this legislation is passed and there is a feeling that nothing needs to take place — well, no reporting — for three years, there may be less urgency than otherwise might be the case. I think that would be something that I would be willing to look at, even if, perhaps, it is an initial report after one or two years, with maybe reporting every three years. What I do not want to happen — there was a lot of concern about this at Second Stage and Committee Stage — is for the Bill to become overly bureaucratic and for Departments to spend more time reporting on how they are cooperating than actually cooperating.”
“While the Chair was right to draw attention to the importance of measuring outcomes and reporting on outcomes, I do believe that it is sufficiently contained in the Bill, but, if that in any way can be strengthened, I am certainly open to looking at that. <BR /> <BR />A number of Members throughout the process raised the question of how regularly reporting should take place: whether it should be annual, whether it should be every three years, every two years, or what it might be. I know that, in discussions with some of the stakeholders, there was a contentment that, within the children's plan, there would be an annual review, and that, alongside the three-year reporting on the overall statutory duty to cooperate in the children's strategy, this may be sufficient.”
“I think that we are close to the end product, and I hope that, by Further Consideration Stage, we can achieve that end product and get an amendment that receives unanimous support. <BR /> <BR />On amendment No 6, the Chair of the Committee suggested that the report did not include outcomes, just cooperation. I draw the Member's attention — I appreciate that he may be drawn elsewhere in the closing stages of the debate — but, for the record, in amendment No 6, new clause 4B(3)(b) does say that the report must include statements on:”
“If we look at some of the evidence of the Children Act 2004 in England, which contained the statutory duty that inspired a large part of this Bill, the evidence in England is that, where cooperative working and integrated services take place, they are a more efficient use of resources, meaning more money gets to those who need it, meaning better outcomes in the long term. <BR /> <BR />On amendment No 5, there was a welcome throughout the House for delay and the desire to get this right. I hope, with the contributions made around amendment No 5, that there is a willingness to continue the work on this clause. As I say, the time frame will be weeks, rather than months, because this Bill does need to progress, but I think that, if there is a will, there is a way.”