Steven Agnew
North Down · Green Party · Northern Ireland
“We need an independent, open and transparent process for investigating Ministers. I have always failed to understand the opposition to that from some in the House. Given recent events, if the Assembly was to oppose it again today, there would be public anger.”
“This process would involve one commissioner and one independent investigation, rather than a political investigation that, I have no doubt, some at the time called a witch-hunt, as is often said when people are defending their Minister.”
“I am delighted to make a winding-up speech on this debate, which has been the first-ever sole Green Party private Member's motion. Thanks to the election of my colleague, Clare Bailey, we have two Green MLAs, which has increased our ability to use the Assembly privileges to put such suggestions forward.”
“I absolutely agree, Mr Beggs. <BR /> <BR />Another point I will make is about the idea of the distinction between the Minister and the Department. When I was drafting my private Member's Bill, I asked, "Should that say 'Minister' or 'Department'?". The legal advice that I was given was that they are one and the same.”
“If an MLA is alleged to have breached the code, a member of the public can write to the standards commissioner and have their complaint investigated in an independent manner. The result of any investigation is published and can, if required, lead to a debate in the Assembly so that all the issues can be aired.”
“I would argue that it serves neither the Minister nor the public well that we do not have such a process. An individual who seeks to complain will be left frustrated if they feel that their concerns are ignored by those in office, who are supposed to act on their behalf.”
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“Minister, the Northern Ireland Council for Voluntary Action estimated that welfare cuts in Northern Ireland would amount to £250 million if we implemented reforms; the Minister for Social Development estimates it to be £120 million. You budgeted on the basis of £70 million a year to mitigate the worst impacts of welfare reform. Given the gaps in those figures, does the Minister concede that Sinn Féin has agreed to a Budget that implements welfare cuts?”
“Is the Minister essentially saying that we have taken money that we would otherwise have invested in infrastructure to invest in removing people from their jobs, albeit under the guise of voluntary redundancy?”
“— we should be marketing them. I hope to see great changes to this Budget and, indeed, to the attitudes that created it.”
“Indeed, we must promote big international tourist events and cut the lifeblood of the Northern Ireland events industry by scrapping the events fund. In the context of the whole Budget, the events fund is a small pool of money. It should be something that is there on an annual basis to grow a cultural sector in Northern Ireland that we can proud of — indeed, that already exists — and that we can market to the world instead of chasing the next MTV awards or golfing event. They are great and send a great message to the world, but when our citizens produce something that we can be proud of —”
“Indeed, until we introduce the living wage, work will continue not to pay for those on the lowest incomes. Of course, we must use the resources that we have better. That is why today I launched my private Member's Bill calling for a statutory duty to cooperate on the planning, commissioning and delivery of children's services. We must make sure that we genuinely take duplication out of our system and ensure that money goes to front-line services. <BR /> <BR />I would also criticise the Budget for continuing the Executive's record of forever chasing shiny new things. When we look at the choices that we make, we find that we must build a new road while our existing roads are crumbling. We must go after foreign direct investment at all costs while local businesses suffer.”
“If we compare where we are with other places, we see that we spend more per head in Northern Ireland than our counterparts in England — so all the figures that I am given suggest. However, when it comes to Sure Start provision for the most vulnerable children and those who need it most — it is a targeted service in Northern Ireland — we spend £21 per head compared with £1,000 per head in England. Is it that our children need it less? Are children here in less dire straits than children in England? No. <BR /> <BR />Approximately one in four children in Northern Ireland is living in poverty. For all the great talk about improving employment to help families and children out of poverty, over 50% of those children have at least one parent who works. So, work does not pay.”
“I hate to bring things back to the economy, because education has value for our people, but the Executive have a stated Programme for Government commitment to increase and improve skills. We hear about corporation tax cuts, but you ask corporations what they want. The PwC report and a number of other reports have highlighted that, above corporation tax cuts, they want skilled workers. Yet, we are cutting our education budget. DEL, in particular, is seeing some of the severest cuts. I hope to come back to that if I have time. <BR /> <BR />I think that the most sinister cut in this Budget is that to Sure Start. That is absolutely the wrong way to go. Sure Start should and could be a universal service. At the minute, it is a targeted service.”
“So, for parties who say, "We will not stand over welfare cuts", this draft Budget is an admission by them that they will, in fact, implement them. I stand to be corrected if that is changed in the final Budget proposals after the Stormont House Agreement, but, as things stand, this is a Budget that will cut welfare for some of the most vulnerable in Northern Ireland — those who need the support of their government most. <BR /> <BR />Where education is concerned, Mr Allister alluded to meeting schools in his constituency. I meet schools in my constituency, and I hear individual schools talking about losing five teachers. That is devastating to everything that we are trying to do in education to create a better workforce.”
“<BR /> <BR />The rates cap remains in place; despite straitened times, we believe that those in million pound mansions should have their rates subsidised by those in modest homes. We refuse even to look at the rates system. Is it the right form of revenue raising? We have not even considered looking at a land value tax, which would be much more progressive and a much better way of ensuring that those with wealth contribute their fair share, which means contributing more, and that those on lower incomes can be protected and can access the public services that they need and deserve. <BR /> <BR />This is a cuts Budget when it comes to welfare. I welcome the top-up fund, for want of a better description. However, should welfare reform be implemented, that fund falls way short of the £250 million that needs to be provided to fill the gap.”
“It is hard to speak on a Budget that we know will be dramatically changed, but the debate is on the draft Budget that was proposed as opposed to what might change post the Stormont House Agreement. <BR /> <BR />What we have been presented with is a cuts Budget. People talk about the block grant, how limited our powers are and how much it is out of our control. The Executive that produced this Budget have made a choice: a ratio of cuts to revenue raising of 100% cuts to 0% revenue raising. Every party will say in every election campaign that it values and will protect public services and that it is the champion of health and education, but when tasked with finding the money for those services, the parties back away from that choice.”
“We should all remember that, no matter how strongly we hold a view, whether it is a political view or religious belief, it is just that; it is our view, and it is a personal view. Whilst we absolutely must respect and uphold freedom of religion, we must also protect freedom from religion. <BR /> <BR />Those of us who believe in democracy and in freedom of speech must stand together to defend it, peacefully and with dignity in upholding those values that serve us all.”
“Je suis Charlie. There is no better place to discuss freedom of expression than in a democratically elected Chamber where Members hold the privilege that protects the highest standards of freedom of speech. <BR /> <BR />To hold a political viewpoint and to express it is to risk offending someone, but none of us have the right to not be offended. Disagreement is an essential part of any democracy, but, of course, those who use violence to assert their own political or proclaimed religious views do not believe in democracy and, indeed, do not respect democracy. Those who committed those murders believed that they were right and that we should all be forced to agree with them.”
“It is a charity and had no pecuniary interest in the position it took. While Members may disagree with it, as they are entitled to do in a democratic society, it is worth putting on record that Amnesty had no pecuniary interest and that its position was based on its best analysis of the evidence on how best to protect the rights of women and tackle human trafficking. <BR /> <BR />Finally, it is clear that this Bill will be passed, and, as I say, there is much to be welcomed in it. It is now for us to ensure that any such review in the future is robust and takes an evidence-based approach to the Bill's operation, effectiveness and stated aim of tackling human trafficking and slavery.”
“Thank you for that guidance, Principal Deputy Speaker. The last thing I will say is a generalised comment: I certainly stand to protect the rights of women. It is not for me to make a judgement of how some women choose to live their lives in so far as it is compliant with the law. At the Committee, some of the questioning went beyond interrogating the Bill and into interrogating the lifestyles of people who were acting within the law. <BR /> <BR />The issue of pecuniary interests was raised. There is no doubt that, in any such issue, there will be vested interests, but the comment was made that it was those only with a pecuniary interest who championed the opposition to the prostitution clause. Amnesty International would take great exception to that. It is an organisation that fights for human rights across the world.”
“<BR /> <BR />I take the Member very much at his word about that representative in front of the Committee. I do not have facts to counter what he said, so I do not seek to.”
“We could make the same point about a number of issues. I think of how we legislate for equality and how other countries legislate on equal marriage. The fact is that this is going to be the only region of these islands that does not legislate for equal marriage. I could make the same argument that the Members opposite would make to me in those circumstances: we have to legislate as we see fit in Northern Ireland. This is my best analysis of the subject. The evidence on this issue is mixed at best. I will not say that there is no evidence to support the criminalisation of the purchasing of sex; there is evidence, but there is also counter evidence. I was left unconvinced that the best way forward was the criminalisation of the purchasing of sex.”
“I have a concern — I am happy to give way if Mr Wells wishes me to — that we have come back to the idea of the deserving and the undeserving, because, when a sex worker appeared in front of the Justice Committee and was interrogated by Mr Wells and, indeed, Mr Givan, I did not see people who were fighting for the rights of women; rather, what I saw were people who were making a judgement about the lifestyle of the woman in front of them.”
“It must be based on evidence and on the Bill's stated aim of reducing, tackling and prosecuting human trafficking. The rights or wrongs of prostitution, to me, were secondary in the Bill; human trafficking is the issue that we had consensus on and wanted to tackle. As I say, whether the Bill is effective in doing that should be the focus of any review. <BR /> <BR />Mr Wells spoke passionately about the need to protect women who are trafficked.”
“I suppose that, over time, with the outworkings of the Bill, whether it goes far enough with that protection is something that can be reviewed. <BR /> <BR />Of course, the clause of great controversy was the prostitution clause. I stand by my position that it could be counterproductive to the stated aims of the Bill, which are to help in the fight against and the discouragement of human trafficking. It has been mentioned that a three-year review is included. That is to be welcomed, because we should have an evidence-based review. We, of course, have evidence from other jurisdictions, but the impact in every jurisdiction will be different. The Bill will be assessed on its own merits and on how it operates in Northern Ireland. The review must be robust.”
“The question was always whether the Bill would assist us in tackling human trafficking. In that regard, there is much about it to be welcomed. It brings within the definition of victims not only those who are directly trafficked but those involved in forced labour, who may not otherwise have been captured by the law and given the protection that those who are trafficked will be given. The services and provisions for victims and suspected victims provided in the Bill should assist in supporting them through the difficult process of coming out of slavery, as the case may be, and indeed helping to prosecute their traffickers. There is compensation and protection from prosecution for victims, although I have been contacted by some who feel that victims are still at risk of prosecution.”
“I hope to join the select band of MLAs who have got private Member's Bills through the House, having moved the First Stage of the Children's Services Co-operation Bill yesterday. That will, of course, be up to the House, and I look forward to the Second Stage, when I will hear what people really think of it. <BR /> <BR />There is no doubt that the human trafficking and slavery Bill speaks to an issue that is severe and grave. I have said consistently throughout the stages of the Bill that we should not try to outdo each other in our abhorrence. We started from the basis that we had an Assembly that opposed human trafficking, saw its evils and sought to legislate against them. Was there anyone here with any doubt? Mr Wells illustrates better than I ever could why this is such a heinous crime.”
“Instead, through the vision of so-called shared education and the Education Bill that we recently passed, all that we have done is sought to underpin segregation in our society. We have done little to move it on.”
“Finally, if ever there was an example of our failure, it is the Education Bill. The peace walls were mentioned. We politicians cannot take down the peace walls, and nor should we. Communities have to lead that process, facilitated instead of hindered by politicians, as is often the case. However, we as politicians absolutely can, should and must tackle the structural segregation in our society. The Education Bill and the area planning process were the opportunities to do that.”
“<BR /> <BR />We get the same again with corporation tax; Government say, "If you don't start coming to agreements, you won't get what you've asked for." That seems to be the only condition under which we come to agreement.”
“The St Andrews Agreement has no democratic legitimacy, unlike the Good Friday Agreement, which was endorsed. <BR /> <BR />That just shows the lack of will to tackle division in our society. Look at the shambles that was the shared future strategy. We were not going to take a document that was handed-down from the British Government that came in under direct rule; we would create our own. Many years later, it was only when the British Government came with the bribe of a financial package and told us to agree our shared future document, which was CSI at the time and is now T:BUC, that we got a strategy. It was a piece of PR. T:BUC talks about shared apprenticeships and that type of thing. That was clearly a planned economic measure rebranded as something to tackle division in our society. It was nothing of the sort.”
“We need to move on from that language and, more importantly, from the way of thinking that it represents. <BR /> <BR />The cost of division, as was pointed out, is not just financial. Mr Eastwood hit the nail on the head when he talked about constant conversation. After the Good Friday Agreement, we stopped talking — not politically; we still have our debates in the Assembly: we stopped talking to our citizens. It became a purely political process. We have to remember that St Andrews, unlike the Good Friday Agreement that was endorsed by the people, was agreed three weeks after an election, so it never had public endorsement. Parties were going in with one wing saying, "We'll never go into government" and with the other wing alluding to the fact that they would. It was designed so that the electorate did not know what it was voting for.”
“<BR /> <BR />If we need an example of the problem, the last time I discussed the Good Friday Agreement in the Chamber and said that the majority of people in Northern Ireland supported it, Mr Campbell, who is not here — and it can be checked in Hansard that he said this — asked whether I accepted that the majority of his community had not supported it. If ever anyone misunderstood the principles that people voted for in the Good Friday Agreement, it was that we did not have politicians who referred to their community as if that was what mattered and that any other community was separate. Mr McIlveen mentioned the fact that we have many communities in Northern Ireland. The language of the "two traditional communities" is as outdated as the division in our society.”
“Sixteen years on from the Good Friday Agreement and seven years on from the Deloitte report, we can legitimately ask: "What progress has been made, and what assessment are we making of that progress?". I suspect that the answer would be, "Not very much", but we do not have the evidence either way, and that is of concern. <BR /> <BR />This should be a priority. It was seen to be a priority when we agreed the Good Friday Agreement and the majority of our people voted for it; but it is something that, to a large extent, has fallen off the radar.”
“I beg to introduce the Children's Services Co-operation Bill [NIA 44/11-16], which is a Bill to require Northern Ireland Departments to discharge their functions and cooperate with one another in order to contribute to the achievement of certain specified outcomes relating to the well-being of children and young people, and to amend the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995.”
“I thank the Minister for his decision to keep open the minor injuries unit in Bangor. Obviously, a compelling case to maintain it was put forward. What changed between the initial decision to close the unit temporarily and his new decision?”
“As I said, incineration is the wrong technology. Clearly, for this particular proposal, it is the wrong technology in the wrong location. Indeed, it seems as though there is a race to be the first Arc21 area and have the first incinerator facility, whether it is Bombardier, Lisburn or this proposal. There is a race, and it seems to me that Arc21 is coming third in that race. Regardless, it is a race to the wrong solution.”
“That includes engaging with supermarkets and those who create the waste, including households, to see how we can front-end the reduction, but we have done that, to a large extent, with the improved recycling rates in councils. Of course, more needs to be done. Credit to Banbridge District Council, which is very close to meeting the 60% target for recycling. Other councils need to step up. We need to look at supermarkets producing less waste. Indeed, I think that Europe has now seen its first package-free supermarket. That is the type of thing that we can look at moving towards.”
“That is the way we need to be heading, and we need to move towards a stage where we are recycling and finding uses for the resources that come through our waste stream, rather than locking ourselves into lengthy contracts to feed incineration and to put at risk the efforts that we are making in terms of recycling, reducing and reusing.”
“<BR /> <BR />Mr Ford said that plastic should be removed ahead of any incineration. Essentially, once you do that, there is effectively very little left from the residual waste stream. I agree with him on that point, but that is when the incinerators become unsustainable. In my view, they are financially and environmentally unsustainable to begin with. We should be front-ending the removal. Belfast City Council took the wise decision in the first instance, in my view, to go with a mechanical biological treatment facility when an incinerator was first proposed so as to extract more recyclables and more resources from the waste stream.”
“By its very nature, it destroys resources. I should qualify that because, when I say that I am opposed to incineration, I mean mixed waste incineration and the type of incineration where the feed stock is unsustainable. A wood-pellet boiler, for example, is biomass and is something that I support. It is a single waste stream and a renewable waste stream. The mixed waste that would go into the incinerator would, including the likes of plastics, be non-renewable resources. We live on a finite planet. If everybody lived the way we do, we would need three planets to sustain our lifestyle, but we only have one. We need to work towards one-planet living and seeing the waste that we produce as a resource. Moving towards zero waste is the direction of travel that we should be moving in.”
“Everything that we are trying to do in terms of waste and the direction of travel that we are heading in is about reducing waste, and these contracts would lock us in to long-term waste production, which is the wrong direction of travel, in my view. The former Environment Minister — he is here with us — set a stringent target of 60% recycling. That, to me, is incompatible with incineration and with such a long-term contract to continue to produce waste. <BR /> <BR />We need to move towards a zero-waste strategy. That has to be the direction of travel. To me, that is what 60% recycling targets are about. It is what Reduce, Reuse, Recycle is about. We also need to move to a situation where we redefine waste. Waste is a resource, and I suppose that part of my and my party's opposition to incineration is that it is a waste of resources.”
“I am happy to take part in this Adjournment debate, and I thank Pam Cameron for securing it. Those campaigning against this proposal will say that it is the wrong technology in the wrong place, and the representatives for the local area have probably covered the issue of the wrong location extensively. I will maybe focus more on the issue of the wrong technology because, unlike others here, I and my party are not only opposed to this incinerator but opposed to incineration. I will outline why that is. <BR /> <BR />As has been said, these incinerators are large. I take Mr Kinahan's point that small is beautiful. I would say that; I am 5' 3". They are large, and they need to be to be economically viable. They also need a large and consistent feed of waste and, indeed, for the investment to make sense, they need it over the long term.”
“Even if we get a positive decision, as he would see it, on corporation tax powers, will the Minister listen to the likes of Bro McFerran and Allstate and rein back his position on reducing the rate to 12·5% or even less?”
“I hold open competition, including interviews, for all my roles with all my staff. I do that in spite of the rules rather than because of them. Is the Commission supportive of introducing at least some basic rules to reflect the fact that those roles are paid out of the public purse and also to ensure that Members get the best quality staff?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer and thank the Member for bringing the question. Will the Minister outline why, given the overall picture, such little investment is going into North Down from Invest NI, especially given that we have the South Eastern Regional College and a great guild space in the constituency?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. This seems to be yet another example of OFMDFM promising what it cannot deliver. The Minister referred to the talks' proposals to take a more strategic approach to reducing the number of Departments. Will he outline any lessons that have been learned in the process of his Department being looked at to make sure that, if we do make this strategic decision, we can actually deliver on it?”
“It is not just a quick fix to get us over the line but what is in our best interest, which is why I spoke about a strategic approach to grid investment and energy generation.”
“In the first instance, we have to look at energy efficiency and a reduction in the energy we use, but we must also get the best solutions for the medium to long term.”
“We might extract some more in the short term, which might give dips in price, but the reality is that the prices are only going to rise. <BR /> <BR />Renewables are our only option. It is right that the report, the Committee and, indeed, the Department's strategy make the assumption that we need to increase our deployment of renewables and take the benefits that come with that through the increased indigenous supply of energy, the jobs it creates, the carbon savings and the contribution that we can make to tackling climate change. <BR /> <BR />Members spoke about cheap energy and electricity, but we have to be honest with consumers, whether business or domestic, that there will not be a cheap electricity solution. What we can get is the best solution at the cheapest price, but it will not be cheap and will not solve fuel poverty.”
“Yes. The fact that Mr Wilson is on the fringe of his party on the issue highlights the fact that he is on the fringe of expert opinion. <BR /> <BR />As I pointed out, the fact is that the prices of oil and gas will continue to rise. Mr Wilson points to a current dip in the prices, but the trend is upwards. As he put it to me, if he learnt a wee bit of economics, he would know, as he knows fine rightly, that, when you have fixed supply and rising demand, only one thing will happen to costs: they will rise. He is tutting, because it is not fixed. I know that Mr Wilson might live in the short term; I live in the long term. The fact is that, unless we are going really long-term — we are talking about millions and billions of years — we are not going to produce more oil and gas.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for the direction and the opportunity to speak. <BR /> <BR />When we sit together as a Committee and address the issue, an assumption is made that we want to reach our 40% target and that, whilst that should not be at all costs, it should be the direction of travel. It is unfortunate that we then get to the Chamber and get interventions that take us off that track. It is interesting to look at the distance between Mr Wilson and the Minister in terms of where they sit, because I think that that highlights the differences in their positions.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Actually, my question is this: will he be honest with consumers? He talks about the cost of renewable energy, but, as he knows — he is proud to be an economist — the supply of oil and gas is fixed, but demand is rising. The price will only continue to rise. If he does not change his position, he will lock Northern Ireland consumers into ever-rising electricity prices.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Whilst there might be an overall energy strategy, does he not accept that, specifically for the grid, the current demand-led approach — ie, strengthen when demand comes forward — is unacceptable? We need a strategic approach to the strengthening of the grid.”
“That investment in our post offices would be an investment in our people. I commend Mr Lyttle for tabling the Adjournment topic and thank Members for uniting around the issue. I call on the Executive to take notice of the Assembly today and act on the issue.”
“One of the ways in which we can do that is to use the services that are there, use the post office and work with it to help it deliver new public services, whether those be advice services, benefits or housing services. Can we, through DSD, get our social security offices working with our post offices to see how they can bring services together, and likewise with other Departments and their provisions? <BR /> <BR />Finally, the diversification fund of £1 million in Scotland was referred to. Earlier today, I questioned the First Minister on the proposals to cut the rate of corporation tax, which would take approximately £400 million out of public funds. I was told that that was an investment in companies. Today we call on the Executive to make an investment in our communities, whether that be £1 million or £500,000.”