Katy Clark
Scottish Labour · Scotland
“I welcome the fact that we are taking steps to reduce the prison population, but there needs to be a wider discussion—I think that we are all agreed on that. Community justice must be expanded.”
“The chamber has been designed so that members speak through the chair, which also means that the microphones will work. If you face me, your microphone should work. Alyn Smith: I am grateful to Amanda Bland for her comment. She is a good colleague on the Criminal Justice Committee, and, as ever, that was a sensible question.”
“Yesterday, I met constituents outside the Parliament who are concerned about the potential impact on local communities and the environment of the energy consumption of proposed AI data centres in Irvine, Bishopbriggs and Hunterston, in my region. At least 24 controversial sites are being considered across Scotland.”
“The member cannot take an intervention, as she is already in additional time. Pauline McNeill: I will conclude with a specific point on deaths in custody, which the Criminal Justice Committee had a brief chat about on Wednesday morning.”
“I move amendment S7M-00469.2, to insert at end: “; is concerned that the current prison population crisis is chronically hampering effective rehabilitation; calls on the Scottish Government to increase its investment in GPS technology and speed up its roll out, and notes that the current approach to rehabilitation, community justice and e…”
“I understand that there is a request for national guidance, but that would be a deviation from where we are as a Parliament. However, if the mood of the Parliament is changing, the Government is open to listening, and that is a conversation to be had.”
The complete record
Every one of 635 lines we hold for Katy Clark, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 11 of 13.
“On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I could not vote. I would have voted yes. The Presiding Officer: Thank you, Ms Clark. We will ensure that that is recorded. For Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Rona Mackay] Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Abstentions Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) The Presiding Officer: The result of the division on motion S6M-18076, in the name of Kaukab Stewart, on the legislative consent motion on the Border Security, Asylum and Immigration Bill, which is United Kingdom legislation, is: For 86, Against 0, Abstentions 28.”
“Such improvement will include reducing exclusions. All of that is aligned with the asks that are in the Promise. Before the framework was fully developed, it was tested in local authority settings. Initial feedback from local authorities was largely positive, but further testing is to be done. I expect that the findings of the recent Who Cares? Scotland report, which were quite concerning, will provide fresh impetus to the work that is happening on exclusions. A review of national guidance on exclusions will also get under way later this summer, and I am sure that the intersection of exclusions and care- experienced children will feature prominently in that activity.”
“Does he believe that a legislative solution through the Government’s Children (Care, Care Experience and Services Planning) (Scotland) Bill, which seeks to fulfil the Promise, will be possible, or does he believe that other strategies will be effective? Graeme Dey: I note Katy Clark’s long-standing interest in this matter, which she has raised in the chamber previously. The Scottish Government has been working in close partnership with Education Scotland and partners, including the Association of Directors of Education in Scotland and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, to consider the calls for action that are made in the Promise. That work has resulted in the development of the Promise in education framework, which seeks to support the improvement of the educational outcomes of care- experienced children and young people.”
“The Government also continues to provide £100,000 of annual funding to CELCIS to support the facilitation of the virtual school headteachers and care-experienced teams network, which is playing a key role in reducing exclusions. Our national policy on exclusion has a strong focus on approaches that can be used to prevent the need for exclusion. Exclusion should be the last resort and, when used, it should be a proportionate response where there is no appropriate alternative. Katy Clark: Can the minister outline how he believes that it will be possible to address on- going exclusions from school of care-experienced children, given the harm that it does to their lives?”
“To ask the Scottish Government what it plans to do to ensure that children in care are not excluded from school, as set out in the Promise. (S6O-04860) The Minister for Higher and Further Education; and Minister for Veterans (Graeme Dey): Schools and local authorities need to do all that they can to ensure that children and young people are included, engaged and involved in their education. More than £60 million has been provided to local authorities through the care-experienced children and young people fund as part of the Scottish attainment challenge. We are working with Education Scotland and local government to improve the educational outcomes of care- experienced children and young people.”
“Two United Nations reports have highlighted the persecution of the Gypsy Traveller community in Scotland and the need for an apology and further action. The First Minister says that the Scottish Government will listen. The community is asking for restitution and reparations. Does the First Minister agree that, where there are human rights abuses, compensation is appropriate? The First Minister: Those are the issues that we now have to consider. The starting point for the dialogue is the apology that I have made today on behalf of the state. That is not the end of the process; it is the beginning of another part of the process, which we will take forward in dialogue with the community. As I have just explained to Rona Mackay, it will be an engaged process that involves the community at every step of the way.”
“As the minister said, early intervention is key. Will she outline what further work is being considered to identify potential young offenders and develop early intervention programmes? In particular, will she respond to concerns about the funding of the no knives, better lives campaign, about which I have written to her, as there are concerns that there have been restrictions on funding in recent years? Siobhian Brown: I am aware that the Scottish Government is funding several initiatives. I will write to Katy Clark about that in detail. However, I want to highlight the proceeds of the crime cashback for communities programme, which specifically targets youth groups across all Scotland and does great work.”
“On that technical point, it would not work to add other charters here without making further adjustments; otherwise, we would, for example, be requiring the review of any other charter to take place within five years of publication of the learner charter, rather than within five years of its own publication. However, I reassure Ms Duncan-Glancy that, if other charters are produced under section 13, I would fully expect the review model for the statutory charters to be followed.”
“I ask Ms Duncan- Glancy not to move amendments 134 and 140. Amendment 143 would require the strategic advisory council to make recommendations on which changes should be made when revising the charter. I am not able to support that, as I believe it is for the co-production process to drive the decisions about what changes should be made when the charters are revised. Amendment 144 seeks to ensure that the revised charters will be co-produced, with the council giving feedback afterward. That is the right approach. Ms Duncan-Glancy’s amendment 141 seeks to apply the review rules in section 12 to “other charters”. As drafted, that could apply to unrelated charters, such as the social security charter. The rules in section 12 are all specific to the learner charter and the teacher and practitioner charter.”
“The amendment would mean that qualifications Scotland must ensure that education meets every adult’s individual needs, which is not its role. Schools, colleges and other educational establishments deliver education, not qualifications Scotland. I would therefore ask Ms Duncan-Glancy not to move amendment 128. I note that adult learners will be part of co-producing the charter, so their voices will be heard. Ms Duncan-Glancy’s stage 2 amendment clarified in section 10(2) that the charter is about what each subset of learners— children, young people and adults—can expect, so adult needs will not be overlooked. I turn to amendments 134 and 140. Those duplicate amendments 130 and 136. Amendments 130 and 136 are better, as they also seek to introduce the element of co-production, which I think is what we all want to see.”
“I believe that adding them in the way that is proposed in amendment 137 would be confusing, as it would suggest that trade unions are not “persons” who “represent the interests” of teachers or college staff. I would also note that no definition of “trade union” is supplied, unlike elsewhere in the bill. I would therefore ask Ms Duncan-Glancy not to move the amendment, on the basis that her amendment 136 is already sufficient. I am supportive of Mr Whitfield’s amendment 127, which highlights the existing UNCRC duties, in the context of the charter. However, I am not able to support Ms Duncan-Glancy’s amendment 128. Under section 10(2), the charter is to be about what people should expect from qualifications Scotland.”
“My amendment 130A—I am grateful to the Presiding Officer for selecting it as a manuscript amendment—will ensure that we use consistent language across the bill. Taken together, I would be happy to support amendment 130 as it is stronger than amendment 129. I note that Mr Whitfield has proposed amendment 131, which would clarify that children and young people must be involved in the preparation of the learner charter. I trust that he is satisfied with Ms Duncan-Glancy’s amendment 130 instead, which would guarantee that. Ms Duncan-Glancy’s amendment 137 would add specific groups to the list of who must be involved in the participation of the teacher and practitioner charter. I would note that those are already covered under subsection 3A of amendment 136.”
“However, they will achieve the same thing but with different language that comes from existing legislation. I will leave my submission there. Jenny Gilruth: I welcome many of Ms Duncan- Glancy’s amendments in this group. I indicated at stage 2 that I fully supported Mr Greer and Ms Duncan-Glancy’s desire to make absolutely clear in the bill that, as we had always intended, there will be co-production of the charters. I therefore support amendments 126, 130, 132, 133, 135, 136, 138, 139, 142, 144 and 145, which will achieve what I believe that we all want to see here. I turn to the remaining amendments in the group. Amendment 129 is an alternative to amendment 130. Amendment 130 seeks to expand on the list of participants in amendment 129 to also include those from socioeconomically disadvantaged backgrounds.”
“18:00 One of the challenges that we in this Parliament have found ourselves facing, following the passing of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (Incorporation) (Scotland) Act 2024, is how we encapsulate and talk about that legislation. That will continue with legislation that passes through the Parliament up until the end of this parliamentary session, and the Parliament and the Government need to take that into account. Amendment 131, which is the second amendment in my name in this group, might fall foul of what is agreed to before it. The amendment seeks to include children and young people when consulting on the learner charter. I am sad to say that some of the other amendments that have been lodged might sink amendment 131.”
“Martin Whitfield: Amendment 127 would require that “In preparing the learner charter, Qualifications Scotland must have regard to the desirability ... to secure better or further effect of the rights of children.” Again, I return to one of my favourite topics, which is the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child and the rights that children have, including the rights to be listened to and to be there when decisions are made. I welcome the Government working with me on amendment 127. It builds on amendment 259, which I lodged at stage 2. It seeks to ensure that qualifications Scotland takes account of children’s rights when creating its learner charter, without— the Government hopes—being overly prescriptive.”
“Amendments 144 and 145 confirm that those steps would apply both when a charter is first prepared and whenever it is later revised. The stage 1 report on the bill reminded us that reform must be done with the profession and learners and not to them. These amendments would make that aspiration a legal obligation. They would guarantee that charters are living documents that are co-owned by the people who rely on them and are refreshed whenever practice or expectation changes. I invite members to support the entire package of amendments—from 126 to 145—including Mr Whitfield’s amendments 127 and 131, so that Scotland’s qualifications body can begin its work in partnership with the learners and practitioners whom it exists to serve. I move amendment 126.”
“Amendments 134 and 140 are amendments that I first lodged at stage 2 and have brought back in a slightly different format. I want to give effect, and give teeth, to the charters. The Government asked that I edit the amendments for stage 3 and I have done that, so I hope that it can support those amendments today. Beyond the two founding charters, amendment 141 would provide that any future charter that is issued by qualifications Scotland must follow the same review and revision procedures that are set out in statute. Amendment 142 is purely consequential. Amendment 143 would require qualifications Scotland, whenever it reviews a charter, to report its findings to the advisory council and to address any revisions that the council proposes.”
“Amendment 134 would complete the learner charter cycle: if the strategic advisory council suggests revisions, qualifications Scotland must give those proper weight before publication. The same co-production model is extended to the teacher and practitioner charter. Amendments 135, 136, 138 and 139 would oblige qualifications Scotland to invite classroom teachers, college lecturers, training providers and—critically— education trade unions to take their seats at the table. Amendment 137 underlines the duty to consult unions, subject specialists and college representatives. Amendment 140 mirrors the learner charter safeguard and would require qualifications Scotland to consider any changes that are proposed by the advisory council before the charter goes live.”
“I intend not to move amendment 129 and, instead, to move amendment 130, which—with the support of the Government’s amendment 130A, which I ask members to support—would ensure that care- experienced young people and those from a socioeconomically disadvantaged background are empowered to participate in the charter-making process. Amendment 130A is a manuscript amendment, which the Government lodged to support the success of my amendment 130, and I am grateful to the Government for doing so. My amendment 128 would do the same for adult learners, because Scotland’s qualifications system must serve the apprentice in their 20s and the career changer in their 40s as faithfully as it serves the 16-year-old in secondary 5.”
“If that contract is to command respect, the voices of learners, teachers and practitioners must be heard, not after the charter is printed but while it is being written. Amendments 126, 130, 132 and 133 would put that principle into practice for the learner charter. They would require qualifications Scotland to invite the full list of stakeholders as set out in amendment 130—learners themselves, their parents and carers, those who support additional needs, equalities organisations, skills agencies and more—to co-produce the text. Those bodies must be involved in the development of the charter in order for it to have a living purpose and for it to deliver its functions. Amendment 130 would create various groups of people who should be engaged.”
“Amendment 121 agreed to. Amendments 122 to 124 moved—[Ross Greer]—and agreed to. After section 9 Amendment 125 moved—[Willie Rennie]—and agreed to. Section 10—The learner charter The Deputy Presiding Officer: We move to group 7, which is on charters. Amendment 126, in the name of Pam Duncan-Glancy, is grouped with amendments 127 to 130, 130A and 131 to 145. I draw members’ attention to the following procedural information. If either amendment 129 or amendment 130 is agreed to, I cannot call amendment 131 because of pre-emption. If amendment 136 is agreed to, I cannot call amendment 137 because of pre-emption. Pam Duncan-Glancy: A charter is not just a leaflet that is handed out at induction; it is a social contract between the qualifications body and the people whom it serves.”
“For Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Rona Mackay] Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Against Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (Ind) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 89, Against 27, Abstentions 0.”
“Amendment 109 disagreed to. Amendment 110 not moved. Amendment 111 moved—[Martin Whitfield]— and agreed to. Amendments 112 to 117 not moved. Amendments 3 and 4 moved—[Miles Briggs]— and agreed to. Amendments 118 to 120 moved—[Pam Duncan-Glancy]—and agreed to. Amendment 121 moved—[Ross Greer]. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 121 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“On a point of order, Presiding Officer. My app would not connect. I would have voted yes. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Ms Clark. We will ensure that your vote is recorded. For Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (Ind) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Rona Mackay] Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 46, Against 70, Abstentions 0.”
“When there is a custodial sentence, the justice system ensures that the offender complies with that sentence. However, when there is a non-custodial sentence or, indeed, an electronic monitoring order, a high percentage of those are not enforced. What is the cabinet secretary doing to ensure greater compliance with community disposals? Angela Constance: As I have demonstrated in my answers to Ms Dowey and other members, there is a high compliance rate with community disposals. However, crucially, where there is non- compliance, it is a matter for the courts to decide what other punishment is appropriate.”
“In particular, we welcome the next phase of the women’s health plan and the on-going work that has been undertaken to improve women’s outcomes across all areas of health. The cabinet secretary focused on that to a great extent in her opening speech. However, we are concerned that progress has been slow and that significant inequalities in women’s health remain. I very much hope that we will discuss those issues further in the debate. 15:33”
“The Deputy Presiding Officer: You can certainly get the time back. Tess White: Does Katy Clark think that it is appropriate and proportionate for a male who has committed non-fatal strangulation and systemic abuse against his partner to be given community service? Katy Clark: I would not want to comment on a specific case, and I do not know the specific case that Tess White refers to. More generally, we must ensure that the disposals that the courts give have the confidence of women survivors, and we know that that is often not the case. That does not necessarily mean that a prison sentence is needed in every case, but it means that we need adequate disposals that have the confidence of women who rely on the justice system. Scottish Labour welcomes much of the work that the Scottish Government is doing.”
“I highlight the advisory council’s calls for trauma-informed forensic medical examination, independent sexual advocacy and privacy for complainers to be embedded across the justice system. I very much hope that changes that might be introduced through the Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill will enable some of that to happen. We need to look more closely at how women can be affected by multiple disadvantages due to factors such as race, sexuality and disability. I was pleased by what the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice said in relation to that. Ultimately, if we are to move towards gender equality, that means giving women more— Tess White: Will Katy Clark take an intervention? Katy Clark: I am just about to conclude, so I am not sure whether it would be appropriate, but I am happy to take an intervention.”
“However, let us be clear: misogyny should have been included in the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill from the outset. Our justice system is not adequately equipped to protect women from the behaviour of men. In 2021, more than 7,000 domestic violence cases were stuck in court backlogs, with almost 70 per cent of the cases awaiting trial being sexual offence cases. The conviction rate for rape remains far lower than the rate for other crimes, with survivors often speaking of their experience of the justice system as retraumatising. Even our police force has admitted to having institutional and persistent problems with sexist bullying. We know that there is underreporting of sexual crimes and that victims simply do not have confidence in the justice system.”
“We have heard multiple times in the chamber about alarming incidents of abuse and violence against female teachers in our schools and against pupils, as well as concerns about many boys’ idolisation of sexist social media personalities. Scottish Women’s Aid and other groups have highlighted that any law that is not designed with misogyny in mind and does not have ensuring women’s safety at its core is limited in how it can be used to respond to the realities of life for women. I am therefore very disappointed that the Government decided to drop its proposed misogyny bill in its latest programme for government, because that would have been an opportunity for legislators to grasp the seriousness and complexity of the issue.”
“The overwhelming majority of incidents involved a female victim and a male suspected perpetrator. The number of recorded sexual crimes has also risen significantly in the past decade. Transport Scotland has reported that nearly all women very often or always feel unsafe on public transport, where they feel at risk of harassment, antisocial behaviour and unwanted comments. I have spoken with many women transport workers who have been assaulted or threatened. Indeed, members of the women’s committee of the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers in Scotland were in the Parliament last week and spoke about some of their personal experiences.”
“Our young people are our future, and tackling sexist attitudes and behaviour in our schools is key to creating a more equal Scotland. The cabinet secretary confirmed the importance of the younger generation in her response to Alex Cole-Hamilton earlier in the debate, when she spoke about the importance of the norms in our society. On accountability, the National Advisory Council on Women and Girls calls for change in society’s attitudes towards sexual violence and domestic abuse, including evaluation of the cultural landscape around gender power dynamics. Where are we? In 2023-24, Police Scotland recorded more than 63,000 incidents of domestic abuse, which was an increase of 3 per cent on the previous year, reversing the downward trend that had been observed since the start of the decade.”
“I am pleased to open the debate on behalf of Scottish Labour. We, of course, welcome any and all action to improve the position of women and girls in society. Although we have seen advances towards gender equality in many areas in recent years, some of the threats that women and girls have grown to cope with have become more insidious. Today’s debate, reflecting on the first annual report from the National Advisory Council on Women and Girls, is an opportunity to take stock of the constraints and challenges that women and girls continue to face. We know that sexism, misogyny and, indeed, violence and threats against girls and female staff in our schools are not being adequately tackled. We believe that there is a particular need for more focus in that area. We support a cross-campus strategy to address sexism and misogyny in our schools.”
“I give that long-term commitment; I understand the challenges about access to the port and the necessity of redevelopment. The Government has concluded, after years of engagement, that the only way to progress that is acquisition. That is what the Government intends to do, and we are taking every step to enable that to be the case. Migration to”
“No ferries have been running from Ardrossan harbour since January, and that will become permanent unless there is redevelopment. There has been no progress in redevelopment, despite that being agreed on more than seven years ago. This is a disaster for the local community. Does the First Minister agree that, if there is no progress, the process for a compulsory purchase of the harbour needs to start by the summer recess, so that redevelopment work can start? The First Minister: I will explore the point about compulsory purchase, but it has been indicated to me that we would not have the basis on which to do that. I assure Katy Clark, as I assured Mr Gibson, that the Government is actively engaged in dialogue to acquire Ardrossan harbour to enable the long-term commitment that Katy Clark seeks.”
“That is very much in the interests of the people of both Israel and Palestine. 17:04”
“Provisions under the scheme would involve deferring biometric enrolment until family members arrive in the UK and would require the Foreign Office to provide consular assistance to people accessing help. Importantly, that would not negate the Palestinians’ right to return but would uphold it by seeking to protect the lives of those in need now. I am pleased to support the motion and the call for an immediate ceasefire, the release of all unjustly detained people, the unconditional lifting of all restrictions on the entry and distribution of humanitarian aid into Gaza, and the recognition of the Palestinian state. I also support the call that both the UK and Scottish Governments must divest from funding any organisation that enables the sale of weapons to Israel and that all arms exports to Israel must cease.”
“Israel’s aggression on Gaza, in direct violation of international law and the International Court of Justice, has left many Palestinians in Gaza who have families across the world stranded without any safe or viable path to reunite with their loved ones, perpetuating the cycle of trauma faced by those individuals. Pathways to family reunification with relatives in the UK, for example, involve restrictive criteria, prolonged waits and hefty fees. That is the kind of issue that Britain could do more on. As of 24 March 2024, two Palestinians had died while waiting for the Home Office to decide on their applications. I would therefore like to use this debate to highlight the calls of the Gaza families reunited campaign for the immediate implementation of a Gaza family scheme to enable Palestinians to reunite with their loved ones in the UK.”
“More than 14,000 people are said to be missing or presumed dead. It has now been over 15 weeks since Israel imposed a complete blockade on vital aid and supplies, which amounts to collective punishment and the use of starvation as a method of war against the population of Gaza. The World Health Organization has warned of the permanent impact of hunger on a generation of people in Gaza. Israel’s co-ordinated attacks on and near hospitals have pushed Gaza’s healthcare system to the brink of total collapse, and we are far beyond the early days, when there was denial that hospitals were being targeted.”
“The UK Government should publicly call for the full recognition of Palestine, although I appreciate the point made by Liam McArthur that such actions will not be sufficient in themselves. Like many members across the chamber, on an almost daily basis I receive emails from constituents expressing horror at the Israeli Government’s treatment of civilians in Palestine. Since 7 October 2023, Israel has carried out indiscriminate attacks on Gaza, with displacement of Palestinians from their homes through land grabs and demolition, and with the horror of the scenes of carnage, mutilation and death that we see so often on our television screens. Pauline McNeill and Bill Kidd said that at least 56,000 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli military offensives, and some estimates are considerably higher.”
“I congratulate Bill Kidd on securing the debate. I lodged a similar motion calling for the recognition of the Palestinian state, so I am very pleased that Bill Kidd’s motion has been selected and that we are debating the issue today. I very much hope that this Parliament is given the opportunity to vote to call for recognition of the Palestinian state, although that is obviously not possible in this members’ business debate. As a Labour MP, I voted in favour of recognising the Palestinian state in 2014, when the House of Commons voted for recognition in a non-binding vote. I suspect that the Cabinet Secretary for Constitution, External Affairs and Culture may well have been with me in those lobbies.”
“Care workers who are employed by Enable are on strike and have been demonstrating outside Parliament today. This year, Scottish care worker pay is being raised to £12.60 an hour. Does the First Minister agree that Enable care workers deserve a minimum wage of £15 per hour now?”
“I am pleased to speak to my amendments on freedom of information. Significant amounts of money are spent on care in Scotland and the private sector care industry has grown significantly in recent years. Ownership structures have become ever more complex and opaque. For example, data obtained from Registers of Scotland by The Ferret shows that, at the end of 2019, at least 44 Scottish care homes were owned by companies based in tax havens including Jersey, the Isle of Man and Gibraltar. I will speak more about that later in the debate in connection with my amendments on tax transparency, but I mention it now because it highlights the importance of changes in the sector that mean that more of the sector is now outwith the scope of the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002.”
“It is entirely appropriate for those organisations to come to a resolution themselves and not to have the intervention of Scottish ministers. The Presiding Officer: With apologies to those members who we have been unable to get to, given the timings, that concludes topical question time. Business Motion 14:29”
“Is the minister aware that Stagecoach drivers in West Scotland are the worst paid in the United Kingdom? The latest Stagecoach offer of a 4 per cent pay rise was rejected by 98 per cent of Unite bus drivers, on an 81 per cent turnout. The unions say that, even if that offer had been accepted, West Scotland drivers would still be the poorest paid across the UK. Does the minister agree that that is completely unacceptable, that Stagecoach is a very profitable company and that we need to ensure that it makes a better offer so that our constituents are able to use that service? Jim Fairlie: I am very aware of the figures that Katy Clark is telling us about, but I reiterate that this is about a commercial business that is dealing with a union.”
“To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on what it is doing to address violence in schools. (S6O-04755)”
“As I said, we have increased the budget to pay for the placements of not only children who are sentenced, who are the responsibility of ministers, but also those children who are on remand, who would normally be funded by local authorities. We have taken that on board. With regard to increasing capacity, there are also four fully-funded new secure beds in Rossie. We are committed to increasing resourcing when beds become available so that they are part of a contract to ensure that we have the facilities available for our children. Cashback for Communities Programme 8.”
“I agree that no young person aged under 18 should be in prison. However, we need to ensure that there are adequate numbers of places in secure units for justice referrals. In recent decades, we have seen a change in the profile of young people in secure units. For example, there are now larger numbers of young women in such units for non-judicial disposals, such as concern about self-harming. What work is the cabinet secretary doing across Government to ensure that an adequate number of the 78 places are available for justice referrals? Angela Constance: That is an important area of work that involves justice ministers along with education ministers.”
“To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on what impact the national strategy for economic transformation is having on the economy of the West Scotland region. (S6O- 04678)”
“To ask the Scottish Government what its response is to reports that the number of new rape cases being reported to police has increased by more than a third since 2020-21. (S6T-02508)”