Katy Clark
Scottish Labour · Scotland
“I welcome the fact that we are taking steps to reduce the prison population, but there needs to be a wider discussion—I think that we are all agreed on that. Community justice must be expanded.”
“The chamber has been designed so that members speak through the chair, which also means that the microphones will work. If you face me, your microphone should work. Alyn Smith: I am grateful to Amanda Bland for her comment. She is a good colleague on the Criminal Justice Committee, and, as ever, that was a sensible question.”
“Yesterday, I met constituents outside the Parliament who are concerned about the potential impact on local communities and the environment of the energy consumption of proposed AI data centres in Irvine, Bishopbriggs and Hunterston, in my region. At least 24 controversial sites are being considered across Scotland.”
“The member cannot take an intervention, as she is already in additional time. Pauline McNeill: I will conclude with a specific point on deaths in custody, which the Criminal Justice Committee had a brief chat about on Wednesday morning.”
“I move amendment S7M-00469.2, to insert at end: “; is concerned that the current prison population crisis is chronically hampering effective rehabilitation; calls on the Scottish Government to increase its investment in GPS technology and speed up its roll out, and notes that the current approach to rehabilitation, community justice and e…”
“I understand that there is a request for national guidance, but that would be a deviation from where we are as a Parliament. However, if the mood of the Parliament is changing, the Government is open to listening, and that is a conversation to be had.”
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“I listened to her opening contribution with interest, particularly in relation to the review, because I have to say that the justice team for Scottish Labour became aware of this work only when the motion was lodged, and the only detail that we have had was in the cabinet secretary’s contribution today. There needs to be a genuine open discussion in the Parliament about these issues, and the framework of the justice system in Scotland often prevents that from happening. For example, some of the policy on the sentencing of young offenders— under-25s—was not debated with any seriousness or consequence by this Parliament. I agree with the cabinet secretary’s motion, which says that “the Parliament has an important role to play in discussing the use of imprisonment and the best means for addressing offending behaviour”.”
“We have high levels of reoffending by people who go through the justice system. As Liam Kerr said, that issue is not being dealt with with any urgency. Our criminal justice system is in crisis, and our view is that that is not sustainable. As has been said by many speakers in the debate, including Rona Mackay, Liam McArthur, Maggie Chapman, Fulton MacGregor and, indeed, the cabinet secretary, the evidence suggests that, for most crimes, non-custodial sentences are the most effective in preventing reoffending. The Parliament has received, and the Scottish Government has commissioned, many reports, statements and policy documents to that effect. The cabinet secretary spoke about some of the negative impacts of being in prison.”
“It reduced slightly as a result of a change in policy in relation to young offenders, who were largely taken out of the criminal justice system, but the population has since increased. Scottish Labour does not accept that we have a sustainable prison population. Per capita, we have the highest number of people in prison in Europe and the highest number of people on remand, which is not sustainable. Little rehabilitation happens in prison. Prisoners do not have access to the programmes that they need that might mean that they do not reoffend, and prison staff are under massive pressure. Many prisoners who are held on remand are either found not guilty or are immediately released when found guilty at trial due to the length of time that they have already spent in custody.”
“Thank you, Presiding Officer, for the opportunity to close the debate on behalf of Scottish Labour. We believe that there is a consensus, across the Parliament and the Criminal Justice Committee, on many of the issues that we are debating. The real challenge is why the consensus that exists and has existed for many decades on how our courts deal with criminal behaviour has not been implemented. Ben Macpherson rightly raised the issue of why we have high levels of crime, particularly violent crime, in Scotland, and those are issues that the Parliament should be engaging with. However, today’s debate is more about how we deal with offending behaviour once it has happened. As the cabinet secretary said, there has been a 60 per cent increase in Scotland’s prison population since 1990.”
“To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on what action it is taking to help local authorities to move families with children out of temporary accommodation into suitable permanent homes. (S6O-04339)”
“I had asked my officials to initiate those discussions to ensure that we had a different option from one that was, for the legal reasons that I set out, becoming increasingly complex and difficult. I am pleased that we have the opportunity, should negotiations result in a successful conclusion, to purchase the port. As I have clearly set out, the funding for that is available in the 2025-26 budget, and I would encourage Katy Clark to support that. Dairy Sector (Support) 6.”
“I welcome the cabinet secretary’s announcement today. As she is well aware, it was agreed seven years ago that Ardrossan would continue as the main port to Arran, and it has been clear for a number of years that Peel Ports, as the owner, seems to be the obstacle. Labour in North Ayrshire has been calling for municipal ownership or a form of public ownership in order to break the logjam. Has the cabinet secretary now come to the conclusion that it will not be possible to conclude a deal with Peel, or is she continuing to consider that? Fiona Hyslop: I can reassure Katy Clark that discussions have been conducted in good faith, which is required. As she will understand, discussions on purchase can take place only with two willing partners, and I am pleased that there are on-going discussions in good faith.”
“That has not been helped by Brexit and a range of other factors, but the Government will continue working with local authorities to do what we can to support their efforts to build on the substantial improvement that we have seen in the condition of the school estate across Scotland over the past number of years. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Carol Mochan joins us remotely. Local Government (Staff Recruitment and Retention) 2.”
“The new Ardrossan academy was originally estimated to cost £31.5 million but, by last year’s budget, that cost had more than doubled, to £75 million. What more can be done to support councils that are having to meet the soaring construction costs that are required for new projects, and how is that taken into account in budget allocation? Ivan McKee: I have already made it clear that the Scottish Government continues to support local authorities through the £2 billion LEIP funding and it will continue to do so. Clearly, construction inflation is impacting us all.”
“Given the specialist roles that many police officers now undertake, does the cabinet secretary agree that the most effective way of improving the visibility of the police in our communities and the service that our constituents receive is to increase police numbers? Angela Constance: As I said in my earlier answer, I am pleased to report to the Parliament that there is stability in the number of police officers, which is currently around 16,600. It is by design of the Parliament that operational matters are for the chief constable, as opposed to being for me, but I know that her comments about visibility in the community are reflected in Police Scotland’s plans.”
“Summits last week and speeches this week do nothing to change the daily experience of overworked NHS staff. We need longer-term solutions that have the trust and the confidence of the workforce. We have an unsustainable model of health and social care in this country, and if we do not change course soon, we will see more staff leaving our service due to burnout, and waiting times continuing to go through the roof. With this budget, the SNP has failed to take the opportunity to reform public services and make them fit for the future. It is time for a new direction, and I hope that today’s debate will lead to some of the actions that are necessary to make that a reality. The Deputy Presiding Officer: We move to closing speeches. I again remind members that there is no time in hand. 16:37”
“That is a very poor use of our taxes, and of money that could be spent on investing in the NHS workforce of the future. That problem of staff burnout and stress has resulted in the loss of 600,000 days of nursing and midwifery staff time as a result of mental health issues since 2020. NHS Scotland has spent £500 million on agency nurses since 2019. Some of those shifts are advertised at wages at 400 per cent of the level of pay for an NHS-employed staff nurse. I ask members to imagine how demoralising it must be for NHS staff who work beside someone who is on the same shift doing the same job and is being paid four times more than they are. That is no way to run our national health service. We all agree that it is only by addressing social care that there is any prospect of turning the NHS around.”
“The Scottish Government says that health and social care is the priority, but there has been a monumental loss of time and money in dealing with the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill as a result of the Government’s political decisions, and the social care system remains in crisis. Money continues to be extracted for private profit; voluntary organisations are still underfunded; and care workers still do not get £15 an hour or decent terms and conditions. We have record waiting times in our accident and emergency departments, and record numbers of Scots are on waiting lists. Only 43 per cent of NHS staff say that they are able to meet all their demands at work, and they say that that leads to feelings of burnout and further reduces staff retention, which fuels the NHS’s reliance on agency workers.”
“The SNP has consistently broken its pledge to deliver an alternative to the council tax—we need to have a fair, locally collected property tax as soon as possible. Those issues have been raised repeatedly by me and my colleagues; I have raised them on numerous occasions in the chamber and in writing. Indeed, the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government kindly agreed to meet me earlier this month to enable me to make those representations in more detail, and to explain the cuts that councils across the west of Scotland will be facing this year on the basis of this budget.”
“After years of cuts to the share of the cake for local government, with councils disproportionately facing real-terms cuts in funding since 2010 compared with other public services, next year’s proposed settlement is far from a fair settlement for local government. In North Ayrshire, cuts such as the removal of all school crossing patrollers and the closure of island services such as the Arran outdoor centre are still on the table. Many of the services that are closest to people’s lives, and which they rely on the most, are once again on the chopping block due to budget decisions. Many councils are planning for council tax rises, not least because they anticipate another unilateral council tax freeze next year.”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate, and I also welcome the increased investment in Scotland’s public services that has been made possible by a Labour Government delivering record investment for Scotland, with an additional £5.2 billion being added to the Scottish budget to spend on public services. I pay tribute to all who work so hard in our public sector. However, the NHS is still on its knees and the social care sector is stretched to breaking point. Council services are still being cut and the justice system is in meltdown. For example, since 2010, North Ayrshire Council has had its budget cut by more than £100 million. In the forthcoming financial year, North Ayrshire Council will still be required to make almost £6 million of cuts to services.”
“The Presiding Officer: That concludes the ministerial statement on the response to storm Éowyn. I will allow a moment or two for those on the front benches to reorganise before we move to the next item of business. Urgent Question 14:51 Child Safeguarding in”
“Postal workers, many hospitality workers and other private sector workers were told that they had to take unpaid leave on Friday. The public sector seems to have adopted a very different approach. Will the Scottish Government be looking at its fair work agenda to see whether more can be done to protect workers in emergency situations where there is a risk to life? Angela Constance: Yes, the Government always looks at its fair work agenda, because it has to permeate through all portfolios and all of our actions. Some of the issues and problems that Katy Clark highlighted relate to employment law and employment rights. It is regrettable that any barrier to adhering to the very clear advice that was given by Police Scotland and the Met Office has been put in an individual’s way.”
“When will the next meeting of the Ardrossan harbour task force take place? When will the long-overdue business case for Ardrossan harbour redevelopment be published? Jim Fairlie: As far as the exact dates are concerned, I would have to get our officials to write to the member with that information. Brexit (Impact on Rural Economy) 3.”
“However, it is important for the integrity of the ombudsman system that the Government honour the recommendations of that independent process. For that reason, it is also important that WASPI women receive compensation. Douglas Ross made those points earlier in the debate. As the ombudsman’s report outlined, only 43 per cent of the affected women were made aware of the changes to their state pension age. As a result of the changes, many women suffered significant shortfalls in their expected retirement income, to the detriment of their financial confidence, their health and their wellbeing, and they had to wait many years for their pensions. The changes have impacted more than 3.6 million women—”
“They have campaigned on behalf of women who were born in the 1950s and were affected by the decision to raise the state pension age for women from 60 to 65 and then to 66. The ombudsman found that the Department for Work and Pensions was guilty of maladministration in the handling of those changes to women’s state pension age and of miscommunication following decisions about the equalisation of the state pension age. The implementation of those changes was found to be inadequate due to maladministration, confusing advertising campaigns and a lack of timely communication with those affected. The ombudsman’s recommendations followed an independent process that looked at all the issues and should be honoured. The recommendations dealt only with the maladministration issue and do not relate to full compensation.”
“I speak in support of the calls of WASPI women across the country for fair compensation and for the recommendations of the Parliamentary and Health Services Ombudsman to be implemented. We should consider all options for financial compensation, particularly given the financial circumstances of many of the women who are affected. I welcome the contributions made by members from across the chamber and hope that this Parliament will speak with a unified voice today. I very much hope that the UK Government will reconsider its decision not to award any compensation to WASPI women. I also join others from across the chamber who have welcomed WASPI women to Parliament today—I have worked with many of them for a number of years in the cross-party group.”
“I look forward to continuing to work on a cross-party basis as convener of the WASPI cross-party group and with colleagues on all sides of the chamber, and within my political party, to try to ensure that we get justice for WASPI women. 18:21”
“However, it was a major mistake to make the decision and to announce that there would not be compensation paid to WASPI women. There is a debate to be had about the details of any compensation package, and as someone who has been involved in these issues over many years, I am aware that, if there was to be full compensation paid, that would be exceptionally costly. Nonetheless, to say—after the publication of the ombudsman’s report, and given the level of the loss that many women have suffered—that there should be no compensation at all is completely unacceptable. I believe that women should not be penalised as a result of past Governments’ miscommunication, and I will continue to do all that I can to ensure that WASPI women receive justice.”
“The ombudsman found that approximately 60 per cent of affected women were not adequately informed in the early 2000s that changes to the women’s state pension age would apply to them specifically, nor were they sent letters to notify them adequately in advance. Those are all matters that have been considered by the ombudsman. WASPI has repeatedly campaigned across the country to explain the lack of proper communication and the lack of a warning to enable women to make plans to bridge the financial gap until their retirement and to address the financial difficulties in which that has placed them. Today’s debate is taking place because of the announcement that was made before Christmas. I welcomed the apology that was given to WASPI women at that time.”
“As has been said, in 2021, the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman found the Department for Work and Pensions guilty of “maladministration” in the handling of the changes to women’s state pension age that were outlined in the 1995 act. That came about as a result of the DWP’s failure to properly inform the women involved of increases—of up to six years in some cases—which left more than 3 million women vulnerable to financial stress, uncertainty and instability. More than four years since the publication of the PHSO’s report—during those four years, as has been said, more than 270,000 affected women who were born in the 1950s have died—WASPI women continue to fight for justice and fair repayment, in particular in the light of the recent decision to rule out a financial compensation scheme against the losses that they are facing.”
“I congratulate Kenneth Gibson on securing the debate, and I am pleased to join calls for the UK Government to reconsider its decision not to award compensation to WASPI women. I am very pleased about some of the points that have been made today, and I hope that it will be possible to get a motion for the debate next week that all political parties in the chamber are able to vote for. I agree with the SNP and Conservative members when they say that WASPI women have been wronged. I believe that the campaign deserves justice and that we need to continue to do everything that we can, as individuals and in our political parties, to ensure that compensation is provided to WASPI women.”
“We pay tribute to all the campaigners whose activity has led to this type of legislation being lodged across the UK, although we recognise that the bill falls short of what is required to address some of those injustices and breaches of trust. We look forward to continuing to work with members across the chamber on the issues, recognising that the bill, if passed, is unlikely to make the significant differences that we believe are required if we are to meet the challenges that have been put to us. 17:25”
“It would be helpful if the cabinet secretary could put that on the record today, given the specific concerns that have been raised by Unison and the Scottish Police Federation. The Criminal Justice Committee heard evidence from a number of witnesses who complained about their treatment by the police and about the police complaints process. It is fair to say that some of the evidence that the committee heard was shocking and harrowing. Both Fergus Ewing and Maggie Chapman have spoken today about specific cases. However, it is far from clear that the bill that we are discussing will make any difference to the experience of such witnesses. We recognise the very difficult job that our police service performs and the significant risks that the police take daily. However, public institutions must behave with candour.”
“As I have said before, I warmly welcome the additional resources that have been put into vetting by the Scottish Government as a result of high-profile cases such as that of Wayne Couzens. We recognise that there is a need for vetting to be strengthened, but, given the lack of scrutiny during the bill process and what the cabinet secretary has said today, I very much hope that it will be possible to have a cross-party consensus as we proceed with the changes. There is real concern about how the legislation will be perceived in the employment space and that it will be used as a disciplinary procedure. I understand that the Scottish Government’s position is that the duty of candour relates to institutions and does not impact on the employment rights of individuals.”
“We therefore agree with Maggie Chapman that the bill is unlikely to address some of the significant issues that are raised in high-profile cases. At stage 1, there were significant concerns about the adequacy of the financial memorandum, and we are pleased that those have been addressed. We were also concerned specifically, as Pauline McNeill said, that the amendments relating to vetting procedures were lodged late and were therefore not scrutinised by the committee. The Scottish Police Federation and Unison have raised concerns about some of the potential implications for police officers and civilian staff. Scottish Labour has been concerned about both the level of engagement with the unions and some of the concerns that they are raising.”
“I am pleased to close the debate on behalf of Scottish Labour. We will support the bill today, although we have had significant concerns about it during the scrutiny process. We recognise that the bill comes to us as a result of the Angiolini review, and we accept that some of the changes should be made. We believe, however, that there still needs to be significant cultural change in our police service and that the bill in itself is not going to deliver that. The police service itself accepts that it is institutionally sexist and racist, and the Sheku Bayoh and Ian Packer cases, for example, highlight some of those concerns. The bill is technical and far from transformational, and we believe that it fails to address some of the legitimate concerns that are being raised by the public about policing and about the handling of complaints.”
“My amendments in the group were submitted after discussion with the Scottish Government, and I thank the officials involved for their assistance in drafting them. I hope that the amendments are now drafted in terms that will enable them to have wide support. I move amendment 10. The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call Sharon Dowey to speak to amendment 4 and other amendments in the group.”
“I will speak to amendment 10 first and to amendment 11 later. I believe that the amendments are fairly straightforward. Their aim is to improve transparency and increase the amount of information that is provided to the Parliament. Amendment 11, which I will speak to later, requires that, when the chief constable lays a revised code, they are also required to lay a statement before the Parliament that summarises any representations that have been made during the consultation and any representations that have not resulted in a revision to the code. The amendments seek to provide the Parliament with information about the arguments and representations that have been made that relate to the code. The provision in amendment 11 is slightly different to the wording that I proposed in an amendment at stage 2.”
“To ask the Scottish Government whether it is giving consideration to a pilot scheme on independent legal representation for rape victims. (S6O-04166)”