Katy Clark
Scottish Labour · Scotland
“I welcome the fact that we are taking steps to reduce the prison population, but there needs to be a wider discussion—I think that we are all agreed on that. Community justice must be expanded.”
“The chamber has been designed so that members speak through the chair, which also means that the microphones will work. If you face me, your microphone should work. Alyn Smith: I am grateful to Amanda Bland for her comment. She is a good colleague on the Criminal Justice Committee, and, as ever, that was a sensible question.”
“Yesterday, I met constituents outside the Parliament who are concerned about the potential impact on local communities and the environment of the energy consumption of proposed AI data centres in Irvine, Bishopbriggs and Hunterston, in my region. At least 24 controversial sites are being considered across Scotland.”
“The member cannot take an intervention, as she is already in additional time. Pauline McNeill: I will conclude with a specific point on deaths in custody, which the Criminal Justice Committee had a brief chat about on Wednesday morning.”
“I move amendment S7M-00469.2, to insert at end: “; is concerned that the current prison population crisis is chronically hampering effective rehabilitation; calls on the Scottish Government to increase its investment in GPS technology and speed up its roll out, and notes that the current approach to rehabilitation, community justice and e…”
“I understand that there is a request for national guidance, but that would be a deviation from where we are as a Parliament. However, if the mood of the Parliament is changing, the Government is open to listening, and that is a conversation to be had.”
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“We need faster progress on decarbonising transport, improving the energy efficiency of our homes, supporting communities and businesses through the transition and restoring our natural environment. I move amendment S7M-00434.2, to insert at end: “; recognises that, in order to meet the 2030 targets and beyond, the pace of change has to accelerate, acknowledging that, if pace continues at the current rate, targets will be missed; calls on the Scottish Government to publish detailed plans on how it will meet interim targets, and further calls on the Scottish Government to move at pace to bring forward retrofitting and other measures to tackle fuel poverty and help Scotland reach its climate targets.” 16:03”
“You should be winding up, so I recommend that you do not take any more interventions and that you move to your closing remarks. Claire Baker: I was going to say something about tree planting. The cabinet secretary’s announcement on climate forests is welcome, but we could do more in that area. We know that the transition to net zero presents huge opportunities for Scotland, and we have the natural resources and ability to deliver that transformation. Alongside opportunity, we need leadership and delivery, with the Government providing clear and credible plans for implementation. Ambition alone will not reduce emissions. Targets alone will not restore nature.”
“Communities, land managers and environmental organisations need certainty on support and investment, alongside clear targets for nature restoration. The same applies to the marine environment. Our seas support biodiversity, sustain coastal communities and have an important role in carbon storage. However, protecting marine ecosystems requires effective management, robust monitoring and meaningful engagement with those whose livelihoods depend on our seas. Deputy Presiding Officer, given that I have accepted a number of interventions, am I able to continue?”
“The minister seems to be quite excited by the fact that I am saying that, as though it is not something that the Government supports, but my understanding is that the Government does support reducing emissions in the agriculture sector, and I would like a clearer idea of how it plans to do that. Scotland’s natural environment is one of its greatest assets, but biodiversity continues to decline and many species and habitats remain under pressure. Nature restoration is a key part of our response to climate change. Healthy ecosystems help to store carbon, improve resilience to extreme weather and support sustainable economic activity. However, there are questions about whether our ambition is translating into projects on the ground.”
“Claire Baker: I have made it clear that farming and agriculture are important sectors, as the highest emissions in Scotland come from agriculture, transport, housing and buildings, but the Government does not seem to be setting out how it could support the agriculture sector to make the shift. The minister talked about supporting the sector, but he did not talk about the subject of the debate, which is how we should deal with such emissions. As I said, we would not reduce livestock numbers—although numbers are already coming down because of market forces—but what should we do? We need to consider the funding network and ensure that we work with farmers. We should use the potential that we have to encourage and incentivise low-carbon farming and greening practices through the payments system.”
“Members must not interrupt. Claire Baker: We agree with maintaining livestock numbers—although the numbers have come down because of market forces—but the funding framework must support the transformation that we need in farming. If we look at how things have been set up in England and Wales, we see that the money that is distributed to farmers is more clearly linked to the transformation that we need in farming practices. Jim Fairlie: I assume that Claire Baker is comfortable with the fact that, down in England, a payment under the basic payment scheme used to be worth £40,000 but its replacement is now worth £600. Is that the right way to give farmers certainty?”
“The next item of business is a debate on motion S7M-00434, in the name of Gillian Martin, on meeting the challenge of climate change. I will give members on the front benches the opportunity to change seats. Members who wish to speak in the debate should press their request-to-speak button. 15:36”
“More specifically, on retail, hospitality and leisure, the Government’s shift in the budget was welcomed in relation to the additional funding and relief that we were able to provide in that space. As I have set out previously, around half the properties in retail, hospitality and leisure continue to be eligible for the small business bonus, which is hugely important and is making a real difference. We will continue to engage with business throughout the summer recess, and I would be more than happy to give Parliament an update on that following our return.”
“Please conclude. Kim Schmulian: This is my final question, Presiding Officer. As far as a rapid review is concerned, exactly what stage did the Gill review reach before counsel’s recent appointment? Jenny Gilruth: There were a number of points in Kim Schmulian’s question, which I want to come to. First, I am more than happy to accept her invitation to visit properties in Glasgow. The Minister for Public Finance and I have planned a summer of engagements with businesses, to hear from them directly about their experiences. It is hugely important that their experiences form part of the review and ultimately lead to improvement in how businesses experience the support that they should be entitled to.”
“The cabinet secretary will now take questions on the issues that were raised in her statement. I intend to allow around 20 minutes for questions, after which we will move to the next item of business. It would be helpful if members who wished to ask a question were to press their request-to-speak buttons now. Questions and answers should be brief.”
“That is an example of why we need to have a review of the type of targets that we set, because the £154.5 million that is invested from 2025-26 is not directly part of the work that is considered when we are measure against targets. That points to one of the failings in the system, which we can improve on.”
“Please ask a question. Heather Anderson: How is the Government is going to develop whole family support as an approach to eradicating child poverty? Shirley-Anne Somerville: I had the pleasure of visiting the whole family support project in Dundee during the previous parliamentary session. It is making a real difference to families, which is exactly why we continue to invest in our fairer futures partnership and the whole family wellbeing funded programmes, working with local authorities. It is also why we have the new whole family support third sector delivery fund, which I mentioned in my statement. That type of work, which delivers systemic change and lifts families out of intergenerational poverty, is key to tackling poverty in the longer term.”
“The cabinet secretary will now take questions on the issues raised in the statement. I intend to allow 20 minutes for questions. Members who wish to ask a question should press their request-to-speak button now. Questions and answers should be brief.”
“The next item of business is a statement by Shirley-Anne Somerville on the tackling child poverty delivery plan’s annual progress report 2025-26. As the cabinet secretary will take questions at the end of the statement, there should be no interventions or interruptions. 15:38”
“I remind members that guidance was recently issued that indicated that questions should take up to about 45 seconds and answers should take up to about a minute. Members should try to keep questions and answers brief.”
“The minister will take questions on the issues raised in her statement. I intend to allow around 20 minutes for questions, after which we will move on to the next item of business. Members who wish to ask a question should press their request-to-speak button.”
“The next item of business is a statement by Hannah Mary Goodlad on the provisional outturn 2025-26. The minister will take questions at the end of the statement, so there should be no interventions or interruptions. I will give the minister and front-bench members the opportunity to take their seats. 15:05”
“The Government expects local authorities and childcare providers to take steps to ensure that the services that they offer are accessible to all, and that all children, whether or not they have disabilities or additional support needs, have access to school-age childcare. There are also provisions under equality law that provide for that. As my earlier answers have indicated, we understand that there is work to be done. We are funding pilots in our early-adopter communities just now, and those will inform the work that we take forward.”
“Realistically, given the budgets and the funding that is available to the cabinet secretary—and, indeed, to councils, which we all know are under significant budgetary pressure—to what extent will it be possible to roll out such services to all schools and all children across Scotland? Màiri McAllan: To pick up on the last part of Katy Clark’s question, which was about to what extent this is possible, it has to be possible, because we have to get it right for every child. That is what the Government, working with MSPs, will seek to do. Katy Clark is right to mention that local authorities have obligations. Every child in Scotland should receive good-quality care that meets their needs and respects their rights.”
“As the cabinet secretary says, there are clearly some excellent examples of after-school and holiday clubs for children with autism, but it is also clear that the provision of the support is patchy and depends on where people live. Indeed, all MSPs are contacted by constituents who require additional support for children with autism. Councils clearly have a key role to play, and the cabinet secretary has referred to that. There needs to be a specialised service that caters for the support that children with autism require for sensory needs and social development.”
“Motion debated, That the Parliament recognises the increasing demand for ADHD and autism assessments among both children and adults across Scotland, including in Mid Scotland and Fife; acknowledges that over 50% of individuals with ADHD are also autistic; notes that previous diagnostic criteria prevented dual diagnoses, contributing to the historic and systemic under-diagnosis of adults; further notes that the most up-to-date Scottish ADHD prescription data shows that only 0.17% of adults are currently receiving treatment compared with the diagnosed expectancy of 4%; highlights that neurodivergent people comprise 25% of the Scottish prison population and up to 20% of mental health inpatients, and notes the view that early identification, assessment and support can lead to better life outcomes. 18:00”
“The final item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S7M-00314, in the name of Helen McDade, on the cost of undiagnosed attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and autism in outcomes and life chances. The debate will be concluded without any question being put. I call Helen McDade to open the debate.”
“The member must wind up. Craig Hoy: —has taken place. The minister has not yet given us an assurance that that is the case. I move amendment S7M-00367.4, to leave out from “believes that” to end and insert: “considers that a functioning bus network should be centred on affordability and reliability and that competition between different providers is the most effective way to achieve this; notes with concern the deteriorating provision of bus services across Scotland, including the numerous routes, particularly in rural areas, that have had their service levels reduced or removed; warns that the expansion of concessionary bus travel could increase the risk of inequality in access to bus services between urban and rural areas; calls on the Scottish Government to take greater action to protect bus drivers and tackle anti-social behaviour on buses, and agrees with the views that the regulations and code of conduct implemented in the previous parliamentary session to remove passes from passengers who commit anti-social behaviour are not strong enough.” 15:47”
“I accept that it is very popular, but there are problems in relation to, for example, antisocial behaviour. The motion sweeps the problems under the carpet and focuses only on the positives. Before we roll out something as significant and, potentially, as costly as this to all parts of Scotland, we must make sure that a full evaluation—”
“What will we do for long journeys and for journeys for which the subsidy will be far smaller? Why was £2 chosen and not £1 or £3? What implications will there be for existing integrated ticketing schemes? What impacts will there be on other transport modes and their revenues, including the Glasgow subway and ScotRail, which is now under SNP control? What consideration has been given to the operational changes that will be required to implement the scheme across a vast region? We are holding judgment on whether the £2 pilot fare can be rolled out across the country in an affordable and achievable way. I draw attention to one other reason why we cannot support the SNP Government’s motion, which is that it paints a rosy picture of the introduction of concessionary travel.”
“The member is not taking an intervention, and he will be winding up. Craig Hoy: —to make sure that those services would be kept alive. The one-size-fits-all model that I suspect that Mr Johnson would like to see, which involves using franchising to, in effect, nationalise Scotland’s bus services, does not recognise the work of operators such as Borders Buses. Those operators manage their routes very effectively, but I accept that in certain conditions they need state support in rural areas. That principle is established. I return to the specifics of the £2 policy. There are critical questions that the minister needs to address, which have been asked not only by me but by others. How will additional demand be modelled and funded? What will be in and out of scope?”
“Daniel Johnson referred to Lothian Buses, and I have referred to East Lothian, where Lothian Buses has taken over commercial routes from local operators. With its full might, it has been able to go in with a lower bid, but it is delivering poorer services in certain locations and it is putting city buses on rural roads. Some of the issues are as simple as that. I will give an example of where competition has, in part, worked and the private sector has stepped in. Last year, in Dumfries and Galloway, Stagecoach—which, in my view, behaved appallingly and was a bad actor in that marketplace—simply withdrew, keeping only two services that it believed to be commercial and leaving others to go to the wall. However—”
“Services are paid for regardless of whether people have access to bus services in their communities. One of my issues with the SNP’s motion is that, although it is very specific on the £2 pledge, it is far less specific about what the fairer and better rural bus service would look like and whether a specific support scheme would be drawn up for rural bus services, as the Scottish Conservatives propose. Daniel Johnson: Does Mr Hoy not recognise that the deregulation of buses in 1986 was a complete and abject failure? The sort of competition that he is describing is not really possible with these sorts of services. How does he account for that failure, if competition is the guiding principle for success in bus services? Craig Hoy: There are different models in different parts of the country.”
“I am saying that, in most instances—probably all instances— effective competition with an element of state subsidy, particularly for rural areas and hard-to- reach parts of the UK, is the sensible approach. Nobody has questioned that in the chamber. We will still need to have supported bus services, now and into the future. Wherever members stand on concessionary travel, both at the present level and were we, for example, to pursue the Greens’ position of universal free bus transport, there is surely sufficient economic literacy in the chamber for us to recognise that it is not free. It has to be paid for by someone— Patrick Harvie: Collectively. Craig Hoy: —regardless of whether or not they use bus services. That brings me to a point that Mr Harvie is perhaps not fully recognising.”
“You will get the time back. Alan Brown: The member has expressed his concern about the loss of some services, particularly in rural areas. I think that most members would agree with that point. However, I note that he is changing his wording slightly. His amendment says that there should be “affordability and reliability and that competition between different providers is the most effective way to achieve” the provision. Is it not the case that he is arguing for two polar opposites at the same time? He is complaining about the loss of services in the free market, but he is then arguing that only the free market can provide services effectively. Both cannot be true at the same time. Craig Hoy: I am not saying that.”
“Could the member wind up, please? Daniel Johnson: That is the critical difference. How are we going to make progress? Frankly, the comparison does not stand up to much scrutiny. I move amendment S7M-00367.3, to insert at end: “, and calls on the Scottish Government to take active steps to make bus franchising a reality, by providing the funding and support necessary for Regional Transport Partnerships to fully and more rapidly exercise the powers set out in the Transport (Scotland) Act 2019, and to advance public control of farebox revenue so that Scotland’s passengers, not private operators, benefit from a restored public bus network.” 15:39”
“The next item of business is a Scottish Government debate on affordable bus fares. I call Stephen Flynn to speak to and move motion S7M- 00367. 15:07”
“As I said in response to Ms Haughey, I say to Ms Clark that we expect the resources that we are putting in place for Police Scotland to ensure the resilient and responsive service that meets people’s needs. That is an expectation that we will carry, with Police Scotland.”
“According to the latest survey in May, the average time to answer a 101 call was 10 minutes and 3 seconds, and the longest wait time was 1 hour and 33 minutes. We know from the debate on the matter in the previous session that many callers give up long before that. Does the cabinet secretary agree that putting extra resource into the service must be a priority, so as to take pressure off the 999 service and emergency response? Neil Gray: The data that I have before me, from March 2026, shows that the average wait time was 7 minutes, 52 seconds. While they are on hold for non-emergency calls, people are given alternative routes through which they can report issues. Katy Clark suggests that people are giving up but, in actual fact, they may be taking up those options and finding other ways to get in touch with the police.”
“I remind members of the convention that there should be no interruptions or interventions during a first speech. I call Simita Kumar to make her first speech and to close the debate on behalf of the Scottish Government. 17:23”
“The member is winding up, so she cannot take an intervention. Amanda Lindsay: The proposed new third sector partnership agreement is welcome, but it must mean more than warm words. As members including Dawn Black, Collette Stevenson and Murdo Fraser have pointed out, it needs fair, sustainable and genuine multiyear funding that matches the true value and cost of the third sector’s work. On that, I believe, there is cross- party consensus. Scotland’s third sector and the vulnerable people it serves deserve better.”
“The member had five minutes and has spoken for eight and a half minutes. I appreciate that he took interventions, but he must stick to time. 17:02”
“The member must wind up. Stephen Kerr: That is not an attack on charities; it is a defence of transparency and accountability, and it is long overdue.”
“The member must start to wind up. Stephen Kerr: The declaration of interests is part of the normal processes of parliamentary committees and, indeed, parliamentary debate in this chamber. The Parliament should know, the public should know and taxpayers should know.”
“Some of those organisations are funded by public funds to the tune of 80-plus per cent of their entire funding. That should cause us concern.”
“Members must not make interventions unless the member who has the floor has indicated their agreement to taking an intervention. Stephen Kerr: I am grateful for that, Deputy Presiding Officer, but I am also grateful to David Linden for highlighting an issue that I am more than happy to discuss outside the very limited time that I have for this speech. There are other points that I wish to make. The organisations that I have been describing are not politically neutral. They have clear ideological positions, they campaign for those positions, they lobby for those positions, and they seek to influence public opinion and public policy in pursuit of those positions. They have every right to do so; what I question is why taxpayers are funding them.”
“Let us sweep those obstacles away. Rightly or wrongly, in a quirk of human psychology, something that is given is often not as valued as something that has been worked for; it tends to be taken for granted. When communities, organisations and volunteers come together to provide facilities and services, they are more highly valued and respected by those using them, because they take ownership and have a sense of purpose and pride in them. Let us help to make that happen for our third sector organisations by working with them in partnership because, if they build it, people will come. 16:27”
“Rejuvenation and renovation building projects to house third sector initiatives should also be supported, because it is known that a pound that is in the hands of the third sector can go much further than if it is used by the local authority or the Government. Let us make the most of that and trust those organisations to deliver—of course with appropriate safeguards and monitoring in place. Currently, far too many obstacles are put in the way of the third sector, especially smaller charities that are run by volunteers, such as my youth club organisation. As has already been mentioned, there are overly onerous funding applications and processes, and community asset transfers are being stalled or rejected by local authorities, which totally goes against the spirit of the Community Empowerment (Scotland) Act 2015.”
“Dawn Black: I absolutely agree with that—no matter where the funding is coming from, whether it is local authorities or the National Lottery Community Fund, we need to look towards the sustainability of our third sector so that it can plan ahead. We need to ensure that the Scottish Government is providing funding that is more easily accessed for both revenue and capital projects, with less restrictive criteria and longer spending periods. Scotland-wide, organisations need appropriate spaces to deliver their services, as, increasingly, public spaces are unavailable, unsuitable or restrictive and not fit for purpose.”
“It is, yes. Calum Kerr: Okay. Right—we got there. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests—until March, I was chair of the Borders Citizens Advice Consortium and chair of Peebles and District Citizens Advice Bureau, and I have 14 years of experience in citizens advice. Dawn Black makes an important point about multiyear funding: that it is not just on the Scottish Government; it is for other funding bodies to do the same. As chair of the consortium, I negotiated a five-year contract with Scottish Borders Council: three plus two. Will the member join me in encouraging local government as well as central Government to use multiyear contracts?”
“Is the microphone not working, Mr Kerr? Maybe you have not got your card in, or it might not be in properly. If there is a problem, perhaps you could move to another microphone— Dawn Black: The member can use mine. Calum Kerr: Is my microphone on now?”
“I move amendment S7M-00356.4, to leave out from “a Third Sector Partnership” to end and insert: “Scotland’s third sector requires sustainable, long-term funding settlements, including greater use of multi-year funding arrangements, to provide the certainty needed to plan services, retain staff and support communities, and calls on the Scottish Government to undertake a review of organisations registered as charities that are substantially dependent on public funding and whose primary activities include lobbying or campaigning, to ensure transparency, accountability and public confidence in the use of taxpayers’ money.” 16:16”
“Mr Fraser, you may wish to wind up and to move your amendment. Thank you. Murdo Fraser: There was a suspicion that that was because those organisations did not want to bite the hand that feeds them. There are many more points that I would make, Presiding Officer, but my time is up.”
“I remind members that the convention is that, during a first speech, there should be no interventions or interruptions. To make her first speech and to wind up the debate on behalf of the Scottish Government, I call Kirsten Oswald. 18:14”
“The solutions are there in the Conservative manifesto, and I would be delighted to work with her to implement them and address this scourge once and for all. 18:00”