Katy Clark
Scottish Labour · Scotland
“I welcome the fact that we are taking steps to reduce the prison population, but there needs to be a wider discussion—I think that we are all agreed on that. Community justice must be expanded.”
“The chamber has been designed so that members speak through the chair, which also means that the microphones will work. If you face me, your microphone should work. Alyn Smith: I am grateful to Amanda Bland for her comment. She is a good colleague on the Criminal Justice Committee, and, as ever, that was a sensible question.”
“Yesterday, I met constituents outside the Parliament who are concerned about the potential impact on local communities and the environment of the energy consumption of proposed AI data centres in Irvine, Bishopbriggs and Hunterston, in my region. At least 24 controversial sites are being considered across Scotland.”
“The member cannot take an intervention, as she is already in additional time. Pauline McNeill: I will conclude with a specific point on deaths in custody, which the Criminal Justice Committee had a brief chat about on Wednesday morning.”
“I move amendment S7M-00469.2, to insert at end: “; is concerned that the current prison population crisis is chronically hampering effective rehabilitation; calls on the Scottish Government to increase its investment in GPS technology and speed up its roll out, and notes that the current approach to rehabilitation, community justice and e…”
“I understand that there is a request for national guidance, but that would be a deviation from where we are as a Parliament. However, if the mood of the Parliament is changing, the Government is open to listening, and that is a conversation to be had.”
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“If members wish to make interventions, they know how to do so. Mr Kerr, could you press your button when you want to make an intervention? It helps with broadcasting. I call Mr Kerr. Stephen Kerr: Is Kate Campbell giving way? Kate Campbell: I was not sure whether the member was just heckling or seeking to make an intervention. He never showed up on the screen, so I assumed that it was not an intervention. I will continue if that is the case. Stephen Kerr: No, that is not how it works. Will Kate Campbell give way? Kate Campbell: I will give way. Stephen Kerr: You do not have to press a button and appear on the screen. Members: Yes, you do. Stephen Kerr: You do not have to press a button, for goodness’ sake—you just intervene.”
“Members must keep to the time that they have been allowed, particularly if they have not taken interventions. [Interruption.] Could the members on the Conservative benches please allow the Presiding Officer to be heard? I call Daniel Johnson. 16:22”
“Could the member wind up, please? Jack Middleton: In closing, Presiding Officer, I say that whoever steps up as Labour’s next leader when Anas Sarwar inevitably steps down and shoots off to the House of Lords would be wise to follow my lead and that of every SNP back bencher who is rolling up their sleeves, standing up for their constituents’ priorities and holding the Scottish Government to account. That is our duty as MSPs and, importantly, it is the function of this Parliament. Multimillion-pound show trials certainly are not.”
“The next portfolio is public service reform, Europe, external affairs and energy. If a member wishes to request a supplementary question, they should press their request-to-speak button during the relevant question. During the previous portfolio, I noticed that a number of members did not keep their request-to-speak button pressed down all the time during the question, and it was not clear whether they wanted to be chosen. If you want to speak, please make sure that you keep your request-to-speak button pressed down. Low-carbon Heat Recovery Technologies (Rivers, Estuaries and Coastal Waters) 1.”
“We move to portfolio question time, and the first portfolio is Deputy First Minister responsibilities, finance and local government, parliamentary business and veterans. I remind members that questions 1 and 3 have been grouped together and that I will take any supplementaries to those after both questions have been answered. If a member wishes to request to ask a supplementary question, they should press their request-to-speak button during the relevant question. Non-domestic Rates System 1.”
“That means working with our schools, colleges, universities, research institutions and businesses to ensure that our young people, those who are out of work and, indeed, those who are looking for a change know exactly what skills they need to get on in life, and where best to get them. However, skills are only part of the story, because they are worth having only if there is somewhere to use them—”
“We all know that Scotland is a high- confidence, stable and attractive environment for many investors. We all know that it was the Scottish Government that put those conditions in place. However, we can, and we must, go further to make Scotland the best place in the United Kingdom to do business, and to create an environment where we can make it easier to turn investor interest into real projects and real jobs. Our major projects office will help to make that vision a reality. Secondly, we must boost productivity. If we are serious about attracting investment, about being the best place on these isles to do business and about competing internationally, we must continue to invest in making sure that the workforce of today is ready for the work of tomorrow, and skills are key to boosting productivity.”
“The task now is to use the powers that we have to build on those underlying strengths and channel them into growth that the Scottish public can feel. The next phase of this Government’s delivery must be about pace, outcomes and reforms. As I have said, Scotland does not lack assets or ambitions, but we know that progress is all too often slowed by the complexity of the state and fragmented support systems that act as a barrier. Our job now is to cut through that complexity, accelerate delivery and align the Government, public bodies and partners behind the shared goal of higher sustainable growth that is felt in people’s day-to- day lives. First, we must continue to unlock investment. We all know that Scotland continues to have the highest levels of foreign direct investment outside London.”
“Our nation is awash with investment and innovation, from the SaxaVord spaceport sat atop the very tip of the Shetland isles in Unst to the Center Parcs development down south by Hawick, and from the world-leading subsea oil and gas and renewables engineering of Aberdeen in the east to the glory of Scotland’s malts in the Western Isles. Across Edinburgh and Glasgow lie financial institutions that are the envy of many, and that is before we spread our view out across our land in celebration of our food, farming and fishing. Indeed, all of us in the chamber— although perhaps not Mr Hoy—could rightly celebrate success stories from each of our constituencies time and time again. We all know them: the local businesses with the global connections and the global brands.”
“The people in the generation I have spoken of have been buffeted by events and they have been promised change from Westminster throughout their adult lives, but they have never seen it delivered. Let me be clear that, for as long as the great levers of any state that control trade, migration, energy, tax and employment law are held by others far removed from Scotland’s reach, we will always be held back from being able to deliver the full potential that a growing economy can deliver and that our nation deserves. That becomes ever more frustrating when we consider just how strong our foundations are. Let us be in no doubt that Scotland starts from a position of strength.”
“Mr Hoy, I remind you that you must treat all members with courtesy at all times. Stephen Flynn: I gave Mr Hoy the opportunity to apologise for Liz Truss, but I notice that he chose not to do so, which is something that I have no doubt will sit heavily on the minds of voters across Scotland in the coming weeks. How dare a member of the Conservative Party—the party responsible for the energy profits levy and for the failed environmental risk assessment that blocked the Rosebank project from being taken forward— come to this chamber and blame anyone else for that party’s actions? The reality is that Scotland’s oil and gas industry has contributed nearly £400 billion to his UK Treasury, and people have lost their jobs despite that. That is on him and his party, and nobody else’s.”
“We have had not only the austerity years of Cameron and Clegg; we are also the generation who watched hopelessly as Farage and Johnson dragged us from the European Union, who remained rooted to our homes during the pandemic and who grew angry as Vladimir Putin brought terror back to Europe and Liz Truss brought insanity to number 10.”
“I remind the member of the convention that interventions are not taken during a first speech and that this is Mr Flynn’s first speech. Rachael Hamilton: I apologise, but I am grateful to Stephen Flynn for taking the intervention. Does Mr Flynn agree with the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland, which has basically said that we cannot tax our way to growth? Stephen Flynn: There is an irony in Rachael Hamilton intervening when I was making a point about austerity when we consider the damage that was done by her party to the United Kingdom’s economy, to Scotland’s economy and to Scottish families, and in her choosing to blame others when she could have taken responsibility for the decisions of the Conservative Government.”
“The next item of business is a debate on motion S7M-00290, in the name of Stephen Flynn, on growing Scotland’s economy. I call Stephen Flynn to speak to and move the motion. 15:51”
“Mr Massey, this is not an opportunity for a speech. You have made your point about courtesy, and I reiterate that all members must be courteous to one another at all times. I will bring in the cabinet secretary to answer the question. Gillian Martin: If Graham Simpson wants to meet me to go through the actions that we are taking on woodland and forestry creation, I am happy to do that. I want to note that I was treating Graham Simpson with the utmost respect, because I worked very closely with him on these issues in the previous parliamentary session. I was merely pointing out that it is a relief that there is someone in the Reform party in this Parliament who still believes that climate change needs to be addressed through climate action.”
“There has been a point of order, cabinet secretary. Apologies—you perhaps did not hear. Duncan Massey: My point of order is on standing order rule 7.3.1, which is about “courteous and respectful manner”. We have been extremely clear that we support the current Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which—”
“Cabinet secretary, could you please answer— Gillian Martin: I wonder how he will square his— Duncan Massey: On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Gillian Martin: You cannot intervene on an answer.”
“We will make sure that we support farmers in decarbonising their activities and in improving their bottom lines as a result of those activities. I look forward to Finlay Carson scrutinising me on that.”
“If he casts his mind back to before the election—I know that the election campaign took a long time and that we were all away from here for a number of weeks—he might remember that I did not take the Climate Change Committee’s advice on active policies to reduce herd numbers in Scotland, because I recognised that that would offshore emissions and have a detrimental impact on our agriculture. With my officials and Cabinet colleagues, I have formulated a climate change plan that does not depend on anything that he has described as happening elsewhere in the UK. I will continue with that approach. Mr Fairlie will be working with me on how we sustain active farming. We will give direct payments for active farming.”
“One question is enough, Mr Carson. Finlay Carson:—finally have the certainty that they need? Gillian Martin: I thank Finlay Carson for his warm wishes, and I look forward to working with him. It is not true to say that there have been funding reductions. The Scottish Government will invest more than £1 billion in the rural affairs budget during 2026-27, and we continue to provide certainty to the industry. Critically, the substance of Finlay Carson’s speech, before he asked his questions, was about herd numbers.”
“A number of members have indicated that they wish to ask a question, so I again ask for questions and answers to be briefer.”
“Also, to say that climate action is accelerating job losses in other areas is completely back to front. We are making sure that we have the replacement jobs and activity for when we see an increased and accelerated decline in the industries that rely on fossil fuels and the burning of those fuels. That will make Scotland more resilient. Frankly, I would much rather be protecting and creating jobs in North East Scotland, which Mr Massey represents, than turning my back on those opportunities.”
“Again, I ask for shorter questions. Gillian Martin: I will try to keep my answer short. With respect, for Duncan Massey to say as a representative of North East Scotland that there is no economic benefit to his constituents or to my constituents in the area is, frankly, astounding. In Aberdeen, 12.7 per cent of local employment is supported by net zero activity. In Aberdeen city alone, net zero activity contributes £1.1 billion of gross value added. In Aberdeenshire alone, there has been a £6.8-billion pipeline of energy projects. Those are facts; I have not just plucked those points out of the air. To say that Scotland is not emitting much compared with global emissions but then ask why we are not doing better is completely and utterly all over the place.”
“The cabinet secretary will now take questions on the issues raised in her statement. I intend to allow 20 minutes for questions. It would be helpful if members who wish to ask a question were to press their request-to-speak buttons.”
“The next item of business is a statement by Gillian Martin on the greenhouse gas emissions statistics 2024. The cabinet secretary will take questions at the end of her statement, so there should be no interventions or interruptions. 15:10”
“We move to the open debate. I remind members that there should be no interruptions during a first speech. I call Katie Hagmann to make a first speech. 15:29”
“I move amendment S7M-00249.3, to leave out from “, progressive” to end and insert: “and low taxation, which incentivises work and investment; rejects the left-wing ‘Holyrood’ consensus, which believes that Scotland can tax its way to economic growth; calls on the Scottish Government to use its existing devolved taxation powers to reduce income tax to stimulate growth, and rules out any further devolution of fiscal powers, which have already created a damaging tax differential, which undermines Scotland's ability to retain and attract high earners and wealth creators.” 15:23”
“To it, I pose one question: when there is little or no wealth left in Scotland to tax, and when the wealthy have gone and the tax base shrinks, how on earth will we fund the public services that our country needs and deserves? That is why the Conservatives will vote against the motion, and it is why we will steadfastly oppose any further tax increases or any attempt to further devolve tax powers to this Parliament. Fair tax, low tax and a growing tax base should be the watchwords of this Parliament in this session.”
“He has explained: “I find Dundee difficult … the poverty is very hard to take. To see the heroin addiction, to see where it’s got to”. It is strange that that did not make it into an SNP party election broadcast. I want to turn now to the motion and amendments before us. On the Labour amendment, I agree on the need to examine business rates, but I remind members that, during the previous session of Parliament, budgets that the Labour Party did not oppose repeatedly short- changed Scottish businesses on rates relief. As for Reform’s amendment, I note the reference to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, and I must commend Reform for SNP levels of selective quotation. Was it not the IFS that described Reform’s self-funding tax cuts as “a mirage” and “not credible”? The Greens’ amendment sums up, perhaps, the timbre of the debate.”
“I believe that, if we simply send a message out to globally wealthy individuals that Scotland is a hostile environment, fewer of them will come and more of them will leave. That is the fundamental reality that is lost on Patrick Harvie. We must guard against that. The point that I made to Mr Harvie earlier is that some of the wealthiest Scots are also the most socially mobile. Take Alan Cumming, who lives in his $5 million Manhattan townhouse, or Brian Cox, who divides his time between the UK and the United States. When Brian Cox comes to Britain, he chooses Primrose Hill in London, where he avoids the Scottish National Party’s high taxes. Although Mr Cox is happy to fly north to Scotland— I am not sure whether he does so on a private jet, Mr Harvie—he does not want to live here.”
“As the Presiding Officer has made clear, we will add on time when a member takes an intervention. Craig Hoy: If I have unlimited time, I say to the member: bring it on. Tom Arthur: I ask the member, in all sincerity, what the Conservative position is with regard to wealth, ownership and matters of equality and distribution. There is a tradition within the Conservative Party, going back to Noel Skelton and Harold Macmillan, of thinking about these things deeply and seriously. Does the member recognise that profound wealth inequality in society creates not only social ills but profound economic ills? Craig Hoy: Members can go back beyond Macmillan, to Disraeli and others, to find the principle of one-nation conservatism alive and well. The issue is how proportionately and effectively we tax the wealthy.”
“I ask members who are trying to make an intervention to press their request-to-speak buttons. A number of members have not been doing that. If they do so, it helps with the broadcast. Craig Hoy: I do not believe that I have time to take an intervention.”
“I remind colleagues that there should be no interventions or interruptions during a first speech. I call Kim Schmulian to speak to and move amendment S7M-00249.2 in her first speech. 14:54”
“The Scottish Government believes that the people who earn the most have the broadest shoulders and should be expected to make a fair contribution to support the running of public services. That means that we have been able to raise an extra £1.8 billion to support our public services.”
“However, despite the financial challenges, the Scottish Government has been able to deliver for our people, as the election results in May confirmed. A key theme in the election campaign, which cut across most parties manifestos, was how we all proposed to alleviate the cost of living crisis. Across Scotland, the people we all represent are finding it really tough. The food shop is up, gas and electricity bills are up and rent or mortgage payments are up again as inflation remains too high. Regardless of party, our collective priority as a Parliament should be about making a difference to improve the lives of the people we all represent. We are not much divided in this Parliament on that aspiration.”
“At the heart of the motion is a simple but important principle: taxation plays a vital role in funding our public services. The Scottish Government believes strongly that the way in which we use our tax powers must be fair, progressive and sustainable. Put simply, the cut that the Government takes from every pound that our citizens earn should be about making our society better for everyone. Context matters, of course. The Scottish Government’s finances do not exist in a silo, insulated from events elsewhere. Whether it be Brexit, the illegal war in Ukraine, inflationary shocks, Westminster austerity or the recent conflict in the middle east, we operate against a backdrop of prolonged economic turmoil. All those factors have placed enormous pressures on public and household finances in recent years.”
“The next item of business is a debate on motion S7M-00249, in the name of Jenny Gilruth, on wealth taxation for public services. I invite members who wish to speak in the debate to press their request-to-speak buttons. 14:40 The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government (Jenny Gilruth): I am conscious that the Minister for Public Finance, Hannah Mary Goodlad, will give her first speech in closing the debate. Hannah Mary’s victory in Shetland was one of the biggest highlights in the Scottish National Party’s recent election victory. Colleagues will have observed, as I did, her energetic approach to winning round the folk of Shetland. Ms Goodlad has secured her seat at the table. I know that I speak on behalf of the whole SNP group when I say how delighted we all are to have her with us.”
“Compared with going elsewhere, providing more routine procedures locally saves time for the patient and helps the Scottish Ambulance Service. When ambulances leave Inverclyde, they do not come back for many hours, because they are stuck at A and E due to long waiting times, or because they get sent somewhere else, such as Renfrewshire or across the river towards Clydebank. I am conscious of my time, so I will stop there. Those were just a few points that I know would help health service delivery in Inverclyde.”
“The impact on Police Scotland is that that takes officers away from their normal roles, which is a cost to it and to society. NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde is a vast entity—the Clyde part of it alone is vast. Therefore, considering the Christie principles for public sector reform, I advocate for Inverclyde to be considered for a pilot project to have a mental health day facility. That would help those with a mental health need, including those in crisis, and it would free up police time and save money. During the election campaign, I heard from constituents about their health journey using the Queen Elizabeth hospital in Glasgow. Not one person complained about the care that they received, but many asked why they have to go there for routine procedures instead of getting that service in Inverclyde royal hospital.”
“I remind members that interventions are not speeches and should be short. Stuart McMillan: I agree whole-heartedly with my friend and colleague Alex Kerr. The more investment that comes to Scotland from the Strathclyde pension fund, the better. The replacement of the Port Glasgow health centre alone might not be enough to make the numbers stack up, so tying in the investment with other projects, such as the reinvestment into Inverclyde royal hospital, might make it feasible. My third suggestion is on mental health service delivery, which the cabinet secretary touched on. During my time as a constituency MSP, many constituents have raised concerns about accessing mental health services, in addition to the growing role that Police Scotland officers are playing in mental health cases when other services are not available.”
“I call Siobhian Brown to wind up the debate on behalf of the Scottish Government and to take us through to decision time. 17:19”
“I remind colleagues that there should be no interventions or interruptions on a first speech. I call Colm Merrick to make a first speech. 16:24”
“We move to the open debate. Our first speaker is Jack Middleton, who is also making their first speech in the Parliament. 15:27”
“With our abundant renewable resources, energy should be cheap in Scotland but, while Westminster holds the power, we cannot make that happen. It is time that we did. I move amendment S7M-00159.3, to insert at end: “in order that Scotland can respond to the climate emergency, cut the cost of living and contribute to energy security; recognises that the climate emergency is an urgent priority for Scotland and for the world, and that the re-emergence of climate denial poses a serious threat; accepts that the world has far more fossil fuel than it can afford to burn without disastrous consequences, and considers that issuing licences to extract fossil fuel from new sources would therefore be indefensible; recognises that the way in which the UK Government links electricity and gas prices prevents billpayers from benefiting from the low generating cost of renewable electricity, and that changing this system would accelerate the decarbonisation of heat and transport; believes that putting Scotland’s energy in Scotland’s hands must include a significant increase in community-owned energy, and further believes that reducing the cost of energy and achieving a rapid and just transition away from fossil fuels will deliver jobs, investment and a strong economy, particularly in rural and island communities.””
“I advise the member that she does not have time to take any more interventions. Lorna Slater: A new report commissioned by the Energy and Climate Intelligence Unit states that net zero industries contribute £10.2 billion in gross value added to the Scottish economy and support more than 150,000 jobs. An estimated 3,000 businesses are now part of the Scottish net zero economy, with 90 per cent being small or medium-sized businesses. The Scottish Greens want Scotland to lead a renewables revolution, with £600 million of investment in onshore and offshore wind, tidal and solar, including redeploying millions in public funding that has been pledged to unproven greenwashing carbon capture and storage technologies. The Government needs to bring back the heat in buildings bill to decarbonise Scotland’s homes and buildings by 2045.”
“It is a matter for the member whether she chooses to take an intervention. Lorna Slater: In the previous session of Parliament, the Economy and Fair Work Committee heard over and over again that the cost of energy is the main concern for business and industry. Next winter, the cost of gas and oil to heat homes will be nearly everyone’s main concern. We cannot remain tied to the rollercoaster of fossil fuel prices. We need to produce our own clean, sustainable and affordable energy from renewable sources.”
“I move amendment S7M-00159.1, to leave out from second “that” to end and insert: “Scotland’s current net zero-driven energy policies are failing, contributing to deindustrialisation through high energy costs and also increasing grid instability, including with the planned closure of Torness nuclear power station, thus creating a significant risk of blackouts; recognises the continued dependence of renewables on UK Government subsidies; acknowledges Scotland’s past leadership in nuclear power; calls for renewed investment in nuclear capacity, further calls on the Scottish Government to recognise the ongoing importance of oil and gas and to fully support the sector in the North Sea, including through unambiguous support for the Jackdaw and Rosebank oil fields and new drilling and licences; calls on the Scottish Government to apologise for its previous lack of support of the industry, including for what it considers has been the presumption against new developments, and considers that, in light of the challenges facing the sector, that energy powers should remain reserved to the UK Government.””
“That means maximising our oil and gas resources in the short and medium terms and transitioning to a nuclear-powered system over the long term, with renewables playing a complementary role rather than a dominant one. That is how we will secure cheap energy for everyone and ensure that we can reindustrialise, protect our world-leading oil and gas industry and keep the lights on for Scotland’s future.”
“We had four large plants across the country, cutting-edge research at Rolls-Royce in East Kilbride and at Dounreay, and world-leading nuclear vessel operations at Faslane. We need to rediscover that, because the world has turned. We need to reindustrialise, because 24/7, cheap, reliable and localised energy is needed for new technologies such as AI, and Scotland needs to be part of that. It is simple. If we want real economic growth, we need a pragmatic energy policy that focuses on cheap, abundant and reliable energy. We need energy policy that is driven by reality, not wishful thinking, and it must acknowledge that our current failing system has the highest industrial energy costs in the world. We need energy policy that is backed by the broad shoulders of the UK Government.”
“Furthermore, the Parliament should note that the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change has quietly removed its RCP—representative concentration pathway—8.5 scenario, once again highlighting that the scientific consensus is that there is not an emergency but a slow, mild warming. It is a problem, for sure, but not something that requires us to commit unilateral economic suicide and decimate every industry in this country. That brings me to another industry that this Government has tried to destroy—nuclear. Nuclear energy is emission free, 24/7 and reliable, and every industrial country around the world is now moving towards it. It is increasingly seen as vital for new technologies such as data centres, artificial intelligence and robotics. Scotland used to be an absolute world leader in nuclear.”