Mr Alistair Carmichael
MP for Orkney and Shetland · Liberal Democrat · United Kingdom
“I do not know whether this is something I still need to declare, Mr Speaker, but I visited the Falkland Islands in 2003 as a guest of the Falkland Islands Government. They have never invited me back.”
“I remind the House of my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests and also that my wife is a practising veterinary surgeon. What is happening was predictable because it was predicted. The Government were warned by the National Audit Office in June last year that they were unprepared for outbreaks of this sort.”
“The Minister is surely aware that there is no route to net zero that does not go through oil and gas hydrocarbons, and that not exploiting resources on the UK continental shelf leaves us reliant on imports, which also has carbon consequences that must be taken into account.”
“The transition to clean energy could be an opportunity to build a different model that would, to use the First Secretary of State’s own words, end “overly centralised decision making and over-privatisation”.”
“I welcome what the Prime Minister just said about strengthening farming. If he is serious about this, one of the first things he can do is ensure that our farmers do not have to compete with imported food that is produced to lower standards than we expect.”
“Q4. Like others, I have always respected the Prime Minister as somebody who was in politics because he wanted to give service to his country, and he has earned our gratitude for that. In my constituency, those who volunteer as coastguard rescue officers also do so from a wish to give service to their community.”
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Every one of 4,707 lines we hold for Mr Alistair Carmichael, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 15 of 95.
“It is not without significance that nobody has chosen to pick it up, because I do not think there is an answer—or, at least, no good answer. On the question of permanence, let us not ignore the context of where Rwanda is and where Rwanda has been politically and in relation to its neighbours. In January, the US State Department was saying to Rwanda and the Democratic Republic of the Congo that they had to walk back from the brink in the conflict between them. If either or both of them choose not to, where will that leave the safety and stability of Rwanda as a destination for us to send people? The determination, as the shadow Minister said, to legislate to say that somehow or another the sky can be green and the grass can be blue takes no account of those real challenges that are coming down the track.”
“To be honest, this Bill and this debate are not about the rule of law; they are an entirely political exercise. I am pretty certain that the Government will win the votes tonight, that they will face down their lordships, and that they will get their way. I would be astonished if any of the legislation makes any significant difference at the end of the day, because this is not about the law or even about a meaningful approach to the problem of boats in the channel; it is all about politics in the run-up to the election. One of the most telling interventions came from the right hon. and learned Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Sir Jeremy Wright) and his point about permanence, which was absolutely on point.”
“It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Lady, particularly given the context she gave to this debate, which is important and worth reflecting on for a second or two. She reminds us that this is in fact the third Bill in this area in this Parliament. Indeed, as the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock), pointed out towards the end of his remarks, we now have another innovation: people are to be offered a cash payment to take the opportunity of going to Rwanda. What do three Bills and a still evolving political situation and portfolio of arrangements tell us? They tell us that this Government have no strategic purpose in how they are tackling this problem, and that has become apparent from a number of the interventions today. We have spoken an awful lot about the rule of law.”
“The right hon. Lady is absolutely right: the justification that we hear time and again from those on the Government Benches for the Rwanda scheme is that it will break the business model of the people smugglers and traffickers. Does she think that providing a voucher scheme for people traffickers is going to break their business model?”
“The Guardian has done a tremendous service to this House by exposing the full extent of Home Office failure, but that should not be necessary. We should not be relying on investigative journalists and on people blowing whistles from inside the Home Office; we should be able to take on trust what we are told, but we are told very little, and, on the basis of what we have read in The Guardian today, it seems that we can cannot even trust that.”
“Either the Minister has been misled by his officials, or he has been told something by his officials that he did not think would be advantageous for Parliament to hear, so the information and the answers have been framed in a particular way. Either way, it is clear that the culture within the Home Office is one that does not respect parliamentary accountability. I hope that, when the Minister for Countering Illegal Migration, the right hon. and learned Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Michael Tomlinson), comes to reply to the debate, he will tell the House what the Government knew about the problems with the Atlas system and the person centric data platform that underpins it, when they knew that, and why they have not brought information about it to the House.”
“There is a substantive matter here. Clearly, this is yet another botched Government IT project, but the issue of process matters as well. Members of the House have been asking about the operation of Atlas and the PCDP and they have been given assurances by Ministers. The Minister for Legal Migration and the Border, the hon. Member for Corby (Tom Pursglove), who I had hoped might be in the debate today—fortunately for him, he is not—has given said in a written answer that no “systemic issues” have been identified with Atlas, but the documents that have been seen by The Guardian today clearly contradict that.”
“Essentially, merged identities, as I understand it, are of two ordinary people; for example, Madam Deputy Speaker, you may have an application that is live, so you might go in and find my picture attached to your data, or vice versa. How on earth can a Home Office official processing applications possibly hope to make sense of that? Indeed, the person accessing this information online will of course immediately be upset and alarmed at what they are finding; this is something that can bring up very profound feelings. It is an issue not just of data mismanagement—as the hon. Member for Glasgow Central said, the Information Commissioner’s Office is looking into this—but that strikes at the right and opportunity of an individual to access some of the most basic services, rented housing, accommodation, healthcare and so much else.”
“At the heart of the system, the Atlas tool is used by immigration officers and Home Office officials for processing any asylum or immigration dealings. That is underpinned by the snappily titled person centric data platform, which stores a migrant’s interactions with UK immigration systems over time, including visa applications, identity documents and biometric information. It stores the records of 177 million people and is part of a Home Office project to digitise fully visa and immigration systems that has cost more than £400 million since 2014. The PCDP records feed into Atlas, so that Border Force officials can view information and some people seeking to track their own applications can access them—and that is where the problems come to light. There is an issue of something called “merged identities”.”
“It is a pleasure to take part in this necessary and timely debate. It is necessary because the common thread that has run through just about every contribution is the lack of transparency and accountability in the way the Home Office goes about its business, and in how it accounts to this House for the way in which it goes about its business. It is timely because, as the hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss) said, T he Guardian has published an article today about Home Office immigration database errors that affect more than 76,000 people. The hon. Lady, I think, said that it was a guddle. If I may say so, I think that is an uncharacteristic understatement on her part; in fact, it certainly meets the test for being called a right bùrach.”
“Like others, I thank the Minister for advance sight of his statement but, novelly, I also thank him for advance sight of the Government “top lines to take”. That latter document includes this passage: “So far we have identified up to around 800 cases that are potentially in scope [Note: if we use this number in public we are going to get held to it. There is a risk that we may deliver fewer overturns or award redress”— to— “fewer individuals, we will then have to explain that]”. If it is the view of officials in the Minister’s Department that accountability and transparency are some sort of problem, does he really think that they are best placed to exercise oversight of the compensation scheme? Should that not be put now in the hands of someone who is independent of both Government and the Post Office?”
“Full transparency from the Government on the effect of freezing national insurance contributions in the way that has been proposed should be an important part of this debate as it proceeds.”
“We have obligations to those we know, to those we do not know, to generations that are older than us, and to those who are yet to be born. We can be bound by policies with which we disagree, and sometimes we must pay taxes for things that we dislike or that we feel we do not need. That is the system in which the national insurance contribution has a demonstrably significant and different impact than other taxes. It is part of the tapestry of government and public life in this country. This is perhaps just pulling at a thread, but the Minister and, indeed, people in all parts of the House would be well advised to consider exactly what they may be unravelling by pulling at this thread.”
“We pay our stamp on each payslip, trusting that, when the time comes for us to retire, someone else will continue to pay taxes that will fund our pensions. Let us remember that the roots of this tax are in Lloyd George’s Budget, and that the introduction of national insurance came with the introduction of the pension. That is why we have the legacy of the link between national insurance and pensions, which was pointed out by the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) in an intervention. That is significant. These are matters that must be clarified before we undertake a change of this sort. At the heart of any healthy liberal democratic society, there is the idea that we have lasting obligations to one another.”
“In practical terms, functionally, national insurance is more or less like any other tax, in as much as money is paid into the Exchequer and fills the coffers, and then is spent as the Government or Governments see fit—in relation to health, policing, transport, Ministers’ legal fees or whatever else it is going to be. As a matter of intent and purpose, however, national insurance is identifiably different from the other taxes we pay. More than any other levy, it is the symbol of our shared obligations—what we owe each other as a society and as communities in support throughout our lives. The point of national insurance is that we pool and share resources geographically and generationally.”
“In the interests of transparency, the Government should have no difficulty accepting new clause 2. I am sure it is merely an inadvertent omission that those measures are not part of the Bill already. It is apparent that comments made by the Chancellor, the Prime Minister and others about the idea of abolishing national insurance altogether have started a debate, as we have seen this afternoon. It is a substantial commitment to make—£46 billion—and we do not yet know where that money would come from. That is maybe not the novelty that it used to be, certainly before the mini-Budget. However, it offers us an opportunity to think a little bit about the nature of national insurance as a tax, because it is quite distinct in its composition and operation.”
“Thank you for calling me, Mr Evans—surely it is long overdue that it should be Sir Nigel, but we will go with Mr Evans for today. I stand to move new clause 2 in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Sarah Olney). Hon. Members will see that the effect of new clause 2 would be fairly short in its compass. It would compel the Treasury to report to this House its forecasts of the change to the number of people who are set to pay national insurance contributions as a result of the thresholds for payment remaining frozen until 2028, instead of increasing in line with the consumer prices index, which would be the case otherwise. The Chancellor and other Ministers have spoken today about the pride the Government take in what they are doing.”
“Accepting what the Minister says about there being no money due to go to UNRWA until April, can I say to him, however, that for us to continue not to fund UNRWA sends a truly dreadful signal to other countries on the world stage? Canada and Sweden have resumed their funding. Surely we should be attending to this now as a matter of some urgency?”
“The number of cases disposed of by our courts is down by 200,000 from its pre-pandemic level—a reduction of 12%. What is the Secretary of State doing to eliminate that backlog? What impact does he think there will be on prison numbers in the event that he is successful?”
“Can the Secretary of State give me some assurance that any free trade agreement with Israel will not allow the importation of goods produced in settlements on the west bank?”
“Those things all contribute to the perfect storm that he rightly outlined, which is the exceptionally high incidence of fuel poverty. I know that because one of the less laudable claims to fame that the northern isles have, along with the Western Isles—Na h-Eileanan an Iar—is higher rates of fuel poverty than anywhere else in the country.”
“It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Mr Paisley. I warmly congratulate the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey (Drew Hendry) on acquiring this time for a debate on a subject that matters to his constituents, my constituents and the constituents of my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Jamie Stone) and the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford). As the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey said, this issue goes right across the highlands and islands, where we have longer, darker and colder winters. We have more houses that are older and therefore more difficult to insulate and heat, and we have virtually no access to the gas grid.”
“The unit price is where the real action is to be found, and it is there that I would like to focus some attention, not least because I understand that Ofgem is carrying out a consultation on a social tariff. That is an interesting idea, and one that I think would command a fair degree of support across the whole House. I therefore hope Ofgem gets on with it—and quickly. Within that social tariff, there surely has to be some mechanism for geographical variation, because social is not just on the basis of income. It has to bring in other factors as well, such as the fact that we live in places that have longer, darker and colder winters.”
“When it comes to the question of energy costs, I have long taken the view that every little helps. Frankly, it does not really matter whether it is a silver bullet: when families are facing the choice not of heating or eating but of starving or freezing, which might be a better characterisation of the situation in the highlands and islands, if there is some benefit to be had, we should take it. That was the view I took on the alternative fuel payment brought forward by the Government last year: it helped a bit, and a bit of help is better than nothing. The hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey would probably agree that standing charges are a small part of the equation when it comes to the question of energy costs and the actual cost involved in heating people’s homes.”
“The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. We have to be a little careful about how we describe that to people in other parts of the world: doubtless, in a week or two, we will all be back here telling everybody they should come and have their holidays in the highlands and islands. However, we are by no means unfamiliar with the phenomenon of the rain that comes straight at you. Certainly, it is always the surest sign of somebody who has just recently moved to Orkney or Shetland, or who is visiting, that on a rainy day they go out with an umbrella, which is a spectacularly useless piece of equipment in the communities that we are blessed to call home. The hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey brings us the interesting and constructive proposal of a standing charge rebate.”
“In what universe is that a sensible and fair system?”
“In north Wales and Mersey, the rate per day is 62.21p, which is even higher than in the highlands and islands and southern Scotland. People in north Wales and Mersey pay 29.57p per unit, compared with 28.48p in the north of Scotland and 28.16p in southern Scotland. When we drill down into the figures and the regulation of the market, the other injustice is the rate charged to people on prepayment meters, who by definition are under the greatest financial pressure in relation to energy. The rate charged in the highlands and islands is 62.3p per day in standing charges and 27.19p per kilowatt-hour. If people in the north of Scotland pay by direct debit— I do, and I suspect everybody else in the room does—they pay 59.38p per day, whereas somebody who has to rely on a prepayment meter pays 66.23p per day.”
“Gentleman referred to the disparities between a standing charge in London and in the highlands and islands, or in northern Scotland, which is probably the same thing. For somebody in London paying their bill by direct debit, the current standing charge is 38.5p per day, against the northern Scotland figure, which is 59.38p per day, and the southern Scotland figure, which is 62.08p per day. That is utterly random. I am sure that very clever and complicated sums were done to get those figures, but they have produced what we in the highlands and islands, and elsewhere in Scotland, would probably call mince. If ever there was an illustration that the regulation of the energy market has gone fundamentally wrong and requires root-and-branch reform, that is surely it.”
“The Shetland Islands Council has promoted the idea of a Shetland tariff for years. I understand what the hon. Member says about seeing the energy development; that is something we have lived with in Shetland and Orkney for the past 50 years, as we have kept the rest of the country supplied with hydrocarbons. We have had some significant benefit, but nothing compared with what we could have had. Yes, there are opportunities here. The real fight comes with the energy unit cost, but in the meantime, if we can do something with standing charges, we should. I am a wee bit disappointed that we do not have a better turnout for this debate. It seems to me that the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey has drawn our attention to something that is really severe for the highlands and islands, but not only there. The hon.”
“The situation is bad for the highlands and islands, and it seems even worse for other parts of the country, although they might not be as heavily dependent on heat in the winter as we are. Of course, I could not sit down without making brief reference to the fact that, for many in our constituencies, the real cost of heating their houses comes from the cost of using heating oil, as that is the only way that they can. There are no standing charges for that, and it is much more difficult to get money into the pockets of people who rely on it. That is baked into the system, and it will not be fixed easily.”
“The fact that we are now so far from the idea of a universal, standard price for energy across the whole country shows just how badly wrong the regulation of the market has gone. As the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey said, responsibility lies at Ofgem’s door. I wish we could see more proactivity from Ofgem, which had to be taken kicking and screaming to get to the point of consulting on a social tariff. If the Minister could instruct it to look at the issue and achieve meaningful change, she would be doing some genuinely good work. In conclusion, I congratulate the hon. Member on focusing our attention on the question of standing charges.”
“My hon. Friend makes an important point. Like the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey, my hon. Friend touched earlier on the health aspects of energy costs, which not only impact the family budget for heating the house but have a much wider application. As the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey said, they impact mental health, and have serious impacts on those who are elderly and so more vulnerable to the cold and on those who have physical health conditions. For those people, the choice between heating and eating actually becomes less difficult, but only in a bad way: they have no choice. Their medical condition means that they have to give priority to heating.”
“I hope that, having had this brought to her attention, she will use her offices to ensure that, going ahead, the highlands and islands, as well as those who are fuel poor in England, Wales, Northern Ireland and indeed southern Scotland, will not be given this rather shoddy treatment.”
“I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman; as one would expect, there is not a great deal of difference. The one thing I would start with, if I were in Ofgem, would be multi-rate meters, such as Economy 7 and “Total Heating with Total Control”, which many of our constituents use. The standing charges on those are 69.32p per day in northern Scotland and 69.17p in southern Scotland. Again, we see the disparity. That is one standing charge where direct action could have a direct impact on the highlands and islands. I await with interest what the Minister has to say. I share the experience of the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey; the Minister is thoughtful and prepared to engage.”
“The Minister describes locational charging. That made a degree of sense in the days of generating electricity from hydrocarbons, because there was an element of transmission loss, so we wanted to encourage transmission closer to the point of consumption. As we move to renewables, that argument simply no longer stands, because we are not wasting a non-renewable resource in order to generate and then transmit electricity. Why has the approach not been changed?”
“The Minister should be aware that his colleagues in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs have recently concluded a consultation on contractual relationships in the fresh produce industry. At a time when 23% of dairy farmers doubt that they will continue in business into 2025, will he impress on his colleagues in DEFRA and the Department for Business and Trade that urgent action is needed in relation to that consultation?”
“The genesis of the Groceries Code Adjudicator was an inquiry by what was then the Competition Commission—now, I guess, the Competition and Markets Authority. That inquiry took many years of pressure to be held, and its report led to the creation of the groceries supply code of practice, which was, in turn, followed by the Groceries Code Adjudicator Act 2013. It was a long, slow and painful process to get even to that stage. I remember the conversations that I had with colleagues in 2013, as a Minister in the coalition Government, about how the adjudicator would operate and whether it would be sufficient. I think we all knew that, at some point or other, we would need to revisit the matter, but we were certainly pragmatic about it, and took the view that what we were getting in 2013 was better than nothing.”
“Today we paint on a somewhat broader canvas with issues of wider concern, but what is important for the agricultural industries throughout the United Kingdom will always be important for us in the northern isles. In recent years, farmers in my constituency and elsewhere have found themselves caught in a pincer. They have seen their input costs—particularly the costs of fuel and fertiliser—rise sharply, while the price that they are able to get for their produce at the farm gate has continued to be depressed by the operation of the market in which they are often required to operate. Farmers have, to put it bluntly, found themselves squeezed in the middle. I think it worth reminding ourselves of how we came to this point.”
“Having seen the House run through business at such a blistering pace, we can now all settle back and enjoy the next four hours and six minutes as we consider the matter of the Groceries Code Adjudicator. I assure the House that it is some years since I made my living by speaking for six-minute units in the legal profession, so we may manage to knock off the odd six minutes here or there. I remind the House of my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. Yesterday we were here in rather greater numbers for a wider debate on agriculture. I spoke then about the importance of food manufacture and processing to the local economy in the northern isles.”
“There is a willingness in this House to take meaningful action to deal properly with this relationship, which in itself will have a significant effect on the future economic and social viability of our rural communities producing good-quality food for people in all our communities to consume. Who would not want that?”
“The carbon consequences of the production of that food—reference was made yesterday to its being produced in Central and South America in ground that would previously have been rainforest or whatever else—and its transportation would run counterproductive to other stated Government policies. It is in the round that we see the importance of regulating properly this relationship, and it is now a matter of urgency. Recent research demonstrated that 49% of farmers in the United Kingdom fear they could be out of business next year, 61% identify supply chain unfairness as something that has an adverse effect on their mental health, and 23% of dairy farmers doubt that they will continue into 2025. Action needs to be taken.”
“Few things illustrate that better than the way in which the dairy industry has been affected by supermarket activities in recent years, but when we speak to producers in just about every sector, we get the same story every time. The strands of Government policy that we have at the moment—the removal of support for production through the new agricultural policy for England, which, as I said yesterday, has a knock-on effect for agriculture in other parts of the United Kingdom, and the improvement of food security—will only both be achieved if British farmers receive a fair price for the food that they produce. If we do not achieve that, then removing the direct support for food production from our subsidy system will leave us with no option but to import ever more of our food.”
“As we consider the reform of the adjudicator’s office, we must ask one simple question: is there an overall strategy at play? It seems to me that different avenues of influence are possible and that, as part of the review, the compatibility of the codes of conduct under the 2020 Act and the office of the adjudicator requires to be examined. Bluntly, I do not care how we tackle this. The vehicle for change is irrelevant, as far as I am concerned. It is the outcome, the change that we are able to achieve, that matters to me. The concern that is most frequently expressed to me is a pretty fundamental one—namely, that the code does not cover pricing.”
“There is no protection, as things are currently structured, for those who would be indirect suppliers, so any supermarkets or other large retailer that wishes to avoid enforcement or coming under the attention of the Groceries Code Adjudicator can do that quite simply by purchasing the goods through intermediaries. The Agriculture Act 2020 allowed the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to create statutory codes of conduct. I am aware that a consultation being carried out by the Government on contractual relationships in the fresh produce industry finished on 22 February. I expect that that is still being considered by Ministers, but I hope it will be possible to hear some indication from the Minister today of when we might see the outcome of that consultation.”
“It is difficult to see how we can possibly hope for an adjudicator to exercise meaningful control over the big supermarkets—who, incidentally, fund its operation through a levy—if the cost of a single investigation is greater than its annual budget. Remember also that when it comes to the dialogue between the regulator and the supermarkets, the supermarkets will not be under-resourced and they have every interest and every means to ensure that they put forward the most favourable case they can possibly create. Just as there is an inequality of arms between supermarkets and farmers, so there is an inequality of arms between the supermarkets and the regulator. Also, the code applies only to direct suppliers, which are now the 14 largest retailers.”
“The people who have benefited from these farm subsidies have ultimately been the consumers and the large corporates—the supermarkets—that have been supplying them. The world is very different today from the one in which the adjudicator was created 10 years ago. There are changes that I would like to see, around which consensus was apparent yesterday. The first difficulty in the way in which the adjudicator’s functions and office were created is that the remit given to them misses out on the early parts of the supply chain. It does not cover producers who supply processers, or smaller retailers. As with the Groceries Code Adjudicator, the code of practice surely requires to be extended to include processers, hospitality and manufacturers. As well as the remit given to the adjudicator, the resourcing of that office also requires to improve.”
“It seems to me that we are putting ourselves in a place where our own farmers are least able to compete on the basis that consumers are most likely to buy on. If the Government are sincere in wanting to keep productive farming and a proper, functioning market, the relationship between the farmer and the retailer is absolutely critical—it is more important than ever. I was struck when listening to the debate yesterday how many of the participants spoke about subsidies for farmers. The hard truth of the matter is that these subsidies have never properly been subsidies for farmers; they have been subsidies for consumers, because they have allowed farmers to sell their produce at a price that simply would not be economic in any free market.”
“The changes to agricultural support risk reducing the amount of food produced on the land; at the same time, we see land given over to other, non-food-producing purposes, such as the creation of renewable energy resources or the process of growing trees—rewilding. Those trade agreements open up our markets to imported food. If that food is not produced according to the same welfare and environmental standards that we expect our farmers to meet, it will inevitably lead to an imbalance in price, which makes it more difficult for our farmers to compete on price. At a time when we see huge pressure on family budgets as a consequence of a massive spike in the cost of living, consumers will increasingly buy on the basis of price.”
“Of course, that is a matter of contract, but as any lawyer could tell us, when it comes to taking action to enforce or arbitrate on the basis of a contract, that contract is only as good as the resources behind it. It seems that even 10 years after the creation of the adjudicator, it is still necessary for farmers and processers to say that supermarkets should be required to buy what they say they are going to buy, pay the price that they say they are going to pay, and pay it on time. The fact that we still hear that message is the simplest basis on which I can illustrate the need for reform. At the moment, our farmers find themselves in a perfect storm. Leaving the European Union brought with it the repatriation of agricultural policy, as well as a number of trade deals with other countries in other parts of the world.”
“On the other hand, we have thousands of small businesses—farmers, processers and others. We have all heard the stories over the years about the influence of the supermarkets. Of course, big food manufacturers such as Kraft Heinz can compete—they can engage with supermarkets on something like an equal footing—but for the farmers and processers in my constituency and those of other Members, it is a very different story. The hard commercial fact is that farmers require access to supermarkets to grow their business, but once they have access to those supermarkets, the risk is that they become dependent on it. At that point, it is the supermarkets that can dictate the terms and conditions on which trade is done.”