Graham Stuart
MP for Beverley and Holderness · Conservative · United Kingdom
“I hope and expect that we can move forward in the right way and get the balance right between being overly prescriptive to the banking industry and setting a clear sense of direction to make sure that no one is left behind, as so many Members have set out.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Wishart. I congratulate the hon. Member for South Devon (Caroline Voaden) on securing this debate.”
“Is my hon. Friend as astonished as I am that the Minister—I know she is new to her post—has come here to propose a six-month extension of the movement of costs from bills to the Exchequer and cannot tell the Committee how much money that will cost?”
“The Minister is being most generous again. I did not ask her about protecting consumers from energy price shocks; I asked about a clear, unequivocal manifesto pledge to reduce household energy bills by £300. She, like her predecessors, refuses to address it directly. It was a clear promise.”
“Banking hubs themselves came out of an industry response from the NatWest executive. Does the Minister agree that we must present the information from the Lloyd review to the banking groups, be clear about what we want, and give them the opportunity to respond and provide a solution, as they did with banking hubs, so that we can perhaps a…”
“I am pleased to say that Lloyds listened and, as of this morning, people can deposit cheques at those places. These issues being raised by Members across the House today are important. I trust that given the timing of the Richard Lloyd report, the Minister in her seat will make sure that they are be resolved to everyone’s satisfaction.”
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“Through our engagement with stakeholders and those impacted, the Government are also striving to ensure that all those in scope of the pass-through regulations, including vulnerable groups, receive what they are entitled to. Over the past several months, we have engaged with consumer groups, landlord and housing associations, and charities to disseminate communications and to underline the obligations on intermediaries and the rights of end users. That extensive engagement also includes organisations in Northern Ireland, such as those I met last week. In conclusion, the regulations are essential to ensure the effectiveness of the energy bill relief scheme in non-standard cases, and the energy bills support scheme and alternative fuel payment in Northern Ireland.”
“They also make clear when and how intermediaries should communicate with end users regarding the benefit being passed on. The enforcement approach for EBSS AFP NI and EBRS non-standard cases is consistent with that of other energy schemes, in particular with EBSS in Great Britain. If an intermediary does not pass on the benefit to a user who is entitled to it, that user can pursue recovery of the benefit debt through civil proceedings. In the case of EBBS AFP NI, should a court rule in the end user’s favour, they would be entitled to the payment plus interest. The Government have published guidance on gov.uk to ensure affected parties understand the requirements. If necessary, there are template letters, which are included to assist tenants to contact their landlords should they have concerns about their energy bills.”
“That includes groups such as landlords. Whereas an end user is an individual who consumes energy and pays for this energy usage; that includes groups such as tenants. Similar to other energy schemes, the regulations require that support is passed on in a just and reasonable way. That enables end users to be treated fairly and lawfully. Regulations have been drafted to account for the numerous configurations of an intermediary-end-user relationship. A narrow definition could risk some intermediaries inadvertently falling outside the pass-through requirements. That is why the regulations are modelled on ones we have already passed. The regulations accommodate scenarios where intermediaries have multiple end users to pass the support on to.”
“The regulations set out the information that relevant intermediaries are required to provide end users about the scheme benefits, including the amount and supporting details of how they have calculated this in a just and reasonable manner. The pass-through regulations for EBSS AFP NI are modelled on the requirements for other energy schemes, particularly EBSS in Great Britain. In other words, the pass-through regulations, as structured, are very similar to what we have already passed for EBSS in GB. Chiefly, it imposes the requirement that intermediaries pass-through the financial benefit of the schemes to end users. In this case, an intermediary is any individual that is party to a domestic electricity contract, has a domestic electricity meter, and is the recipient of the Government energy support.”
“I might seek refreshment, the better to answer my hon. Friend’s questions. What we are seeking to do is be sure that the right businesses are admitted to and benefit from the scheme. The regulations apply some terms into the contracts between those involved and those in the supply chains to help the scheme work more smoothly. Finally, as with all the schemes put in place under the 2022 Act, the regulations provide for the pass-through of relief. Certain intermediary businesses, often landlords, that receive a benefit under the scheme, but who in turn provide energy to others, are required to pass a fair share of the benefit that they receive on to their end users.”
“Member for Southampton, Test asked about who else is in the non-standard category, because I talked about industrial parks as being the typical ones. Again, there is no central database for this; we had to go out to the country, try to find them, and get people to come forward and tell us that they were not receiving their energy through a licensed supplier. If they were not, we had to try to come up with a flexible system that could give them the aid that, like their competitors, they would seek.”
“It is possible that we will be doing things well after the schemes have theoretically closed, because we have to close the loop and make sure that we are fair to everybody. If it takes us time to understand the system, so be it. As I say, we put in place emergency legislation and moved as quickly as we could. On the impact assessment—going back to the question from my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor—given the diverse range of businesses and the reasons that a subset of businesses could not access the standard EBRS, it was terribly difficult to quantify in any meaningful way the benefits of the scheme. We looked at quantifying the costs, but the largest and most significant benefit will be the avoided closures and redundancies that would have resulted, and that is what we are looking to do. The hon.”
“We would have collected it all, and then we would have been ready to deliver this help. But we were not in that position; we had to do it this winter, to get the help out. I do not blame the Opposition for picking on the ones that we have not got to, but a pretty tremendous job has been done to give nearly every household and business help this winter. It is really significant. There has been an average saving of £900 for every family, with energy bills directly subsidised. Another £400 has been available through EBSS, and there is additional help for people on benefits. It is really important and critical, but the truth is that it is complicated. It sounds simple, but it is not, and we will continue to work on it.”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman for the much more characteristically kind words than those he used the other day. He asked two questions. He asked whether the Government are considering any more such schemes and when these cases came out. We had to go out and discover them. Government officials are still engaging with people to understand the nature of their business and the complexities of the way energy is distributed between different people. That work is ongoing, and it is complicated. The truth is that, given two or three years, we could have come forward with the most perfect system. We would have given ourselves the legal right to gather the data, we would have built a complete database of all the businesses, and we would have obliged them to inform us of the way they do business.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for his point, which I am sure has been received deep in the heart of officialdom. That is exactly what the Committee is here for: not only to scrutinise the regulations, but to make sure that we are better able to scrutinise further regulations in future.”
“Wrestling with that, and then coming out with something that is broadly fair, is something that has to be determined within the Department, but it is obviously subject—rightly or otherwise—to potential legal challenge if we do not get the balance right. As I say, the more to the fringes we go, the more complex it gets, but it is still material, as has been discussed. These are very substantial sums of money. Very important facets of society are dependent on these non-standard cases: they are not tiny in quantum, just tiny in number, typically.”
“It is about taking the individual circumstances and then applying to those circumstances the principles that we have laid out for this support. That is not as transparent an answer as the right hon. Gentleman would probably like, but that is fundamentally where we are. We have laid out the principles of the scheme and the principles behind our support. We then have to interrogate the specific circumstances, which turn out to be many, varied and complex. Some people are partly involved in energy generation to some extent, and we want to make sure that we do not double subsidise those in that space. Equally, we want to recognise the complexities if they have had increased fuel costs or other costs coming through.”
“No such refreshment has come my way. The energy system in Northern Ireland is, of course, devolved, so it is a separate system altogether from that of GB. In this particular instance, we have reluctantly had to step into that situation. I am told that the ombudsman is only applicable to heat networks, if that contributes in any way to the hon. Gentleman’s understanding.”
“I commend them to the House, but ask the Committee to note that as the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments has not yet reported, we—and, I guess, I—will have to return to the House on another such joyous occasion to move the motion formally. My understanding is that through the usual channels, a desire was expressed that this debate should go ahead, even if we were not in a position to move the motion formally today. That is the explanation I have had, and I hope that when we come to move the motion, it will be a very short and sweet recognition of the thorough scrutiny that the Committee has undertaken today. Question put and agreed to. Resolved, That the Committee has considered the Energy Bill Relief Scheme (Non-Standard Cases) Regulations 2023 (S.I. 2023, No. 9).”
“Which might explain why they are not covered. If there is any discrepancy between the treatment of the regulations in Northern Ireland and that in GB, I am happy to write to the hon. Gentleman to explain why that is the case, if the Committee will allow me—I hope that will satisfy him. Actually, I suppose I should write to all members of the Committee; they can all enjoy my correspondence with the hon. Gentleman. That is one of the joys of sitting on such Committees. I thank hon. Members for their valuable contributions to the debate, which I hope has satisfied everyone that we have exhaustively covered the landscape brought about by the regulations.”
“If a dispute is still unresolved by the time that any proposals are implemented, such cases should be able to use any alternative dispute resolution options that result from the Bill, if they are appropriate. If the dispute, of course, is resolved before the proposals are implemented, any options resulting from the Bill will not be required.”
“Finally, amendment 5 edits the Bill’s long title to reflect its contents in new clause 1. New clause 1 should be added to the Bill, and clause 2, as amended, should stand part of the Bill. My right hon. Friend raised some questions. He rightly said that retrospective law is typically abhorrent, but asked whether current disputes could be resolved through whatever proposals come forward. We would certainly want current ongoing disputes to be covered once proposals are implemented, but, of course, we do not yet know what those proposals are. Our intention is to establish an alternative dispute resolution taskforce—very grandly named—which will be responsible for putting forward proposals, and we will have to see what ideas are generated by that taskforce.”
“The new clause retains the key factors that the proposals must consider, which my right hon. Friend set out: ensuring that decisions are enforceable, and that the process is affordable and accessible. He also mentioned independence, which is another important aspect. Amendment 2 simply replaces “applies” with “extends” in clause 2(1), which deals with territorial extent. It is a minor technical amendment to reflect more appropriate terminology. Amendment 3 changes commencement to two months after Royal Assent to bring the Bill in line with standard commencement procedure for primary legislation. Amendment 4 removes gas from the Bill’s short title in clause 2, in line with the focus on electricity transmission infrastructure that I have already discussed.”
“The new clause focuses the proposals on electricity-related cases rather than gas-related cases. We support that change, as the examples raised by my right hon. Friend have related only to electricity network infrastructure and we are not aware of issues for gas infrastructure. It seems too early to include gas infrastructure definitively. However, the Secretary of State has the option to expand the scope if needed. Hon. Members have raised this issue in previous stages. The new clause moves from establishing a new mechanism to encouraging the use of alternative dispute resolution processes instead of immediately resorting to the upper tribunal. It means that we can therefore consider existing practices, whether they can be strengthened to meet the aims of the Bill, and whether new processes and mechanisms may be required.”
“The Bill presents an opportunity to address the issue by ensuring access to alternative dispute resolution processes, which can play such a crucial role in offering a quicker and more affordable route to the resolution of disputes. We believe that the Bill can support the transformation needed so that we can have clean, secure and resilient energy for the Great British people. Landowners should have access to a clear, fair, affordable and enforceable system for dispute resolution, and I am pleased to say that we have worked closely with my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset since Second Reading and support his amendments. I will now touch on those amendments, which I encourage the Committee to accept. Amendment 1 will remove clause 1, which will be replaced by new clause 1.”
“As I said, the network needs to be transformed at an unprecedented scale and pace, and it needs to accommodate an expected doubling in overall electricity demand by 2050, as we electrify sectors including transport, heat and industry. In order to achieve that, we committed in the British energy security strategy to accelerate the timescale for delivering new onshore transmission network infrastructure. We recognise that in cases where land or land rights have been acquired and a settlement is not agreed between landowners and the transmission owner, challenging that via the upper tribunal can be expensive—a point made strongly by my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset.”
“That is a massive deployment, supply chain and financing challenge, but it is also a political challenge, because of unprecedented imposition of necessary infrastructure on communities up and down the land. Ensuring that we have a system that is fit for purpose and does not roll communities over—but rolls with communities and their grain—is fundamental. That is why I am so grateful for the Bill. I do not believe it will slow down that tremendously required acceleration of deployment, but it will help to build a system that is better able to listen to the communities we represent and ensure that they feel part of the solution, not just subject to it.”
“Friend the Member for Wealden (Ms Ghani), agreed that the Government would work with my right hon. Friend on the Bill. The electricity network is fundamental to accelerate our ambitions for net zero and energy security. Since taking on my role and seeing the vast amount of technology we need to deploy, I return again and again to the same point: if we do not get the grid right, whatever we do is affected, whether that is space energy; small modular nuclear reactors; hydrogen and carbon capture, utilisation and storage; or floating offshore wind. Whatever it is, without the grid we will not have a transformation, which we have to do at a most remarkable pace. The president of the National Grid has said there will be six-and-a-half times more investment in the grid over the next seven years than in the previous 30.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hosie. I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset, and I am sure that Members across the Committee congratulate him. He probably snapped into it pretty easily; not only did he have the great success of the Down Syndrome Act but, as my former boss at the Department for International Trade for some time, seeking to command me was something that came naturally to him. Perhaps I have an overly built-in response, which is of course to try to do whatever he wants. We have made tremendous progress. I am pleased that the Bill gained the support of Members of the House, passing Second Reading on 25 November last year. On Second Reading, my colleague the Minister for Industry and Investment Security, my hon.”
“We respect that, and we want to see those institutions restored as soon as possible, because people in Northern Ireland deserve to have the people they elect delivering the things that have rightly been devolved for them to deliver for the good of people in Northern Ireland. I recognise that we would swiftly move from people welcoming the Minister stepping into a gap to them asking, “What’s your status? How are you making these rules for us?” That is why we really want to see the restitution of people in Northern Ireland determining what happens there.”
“As he said, energy transmission is devolved in Northern Ireland, as is energy generally, and notwithstanding the failure so far to convene the Executive in Northern Ireland, the devolution settlement stays in place. We only step in reluctantly, when there is no other choice; we have successfully done so, and I am pleased to see people in Northern Ireland receiving their energy bills support scheme payments and their alternative fuel payments this week, either directly into their bank accounts or through voucher provision. My Department did a lot of work to ensure we could serve the people of Northern Ireland, because we could not leave them without that support this winter, but that is not an indication that I or the Government have any appetite to fulfil a function that is properly devolved in Northern Ireland.”
“The Bill does extend to Scotland, but as currently drafted it applies strictly to cases where a development consent order has been granted for electricity transmission infrastructure under the Planning Act 2008. The development consent order process does not apply in Scotland, except under limited circumstances that do not relate to electricity transmission. While electricity transmission is reserved, dispute resolution and other things are devolved, so in Scotland, there would be an interplay between the various responsibilities of the different Governments. It will be the role of the taskforce to develop the full scope of the proposals. The hon. Member for North Antrim asked about the Bill’s application in Northern Ireland.”
“I would like to see it sooner rather than later, and have already asked—for my purposes, which I may or may not make public—for a timeline for that process. Having come so far, I hope my right hon. Friend can trust in me to ensure that we move this forward with suitable rapidity, but if he lacks that trust I think he can trust his own use of the mechanisms of this House to ensure that the Government are kept honest and move in an expedited way to set up this taskforce. One of the first tasks of the group will be setting a scope, a work plan and a timeframe. My right hon. Friend asked whether the Bill applies to Scotland, and in which circumstances.”
“As I have said, we will establish an alternative dispute resolution taskforce to develop the proposals. We will ensure that there is independent and balanced representation among members—for example, by including landowner representatives alongside electricity network operators. As I am sure this Committee will be pleased to hear, we will also look to engage closely with my right hon. Friend to ensure that he is happy with the make-up of the taskforce. By establishing that taskforce, we can ensure that the right expertise and balance of views is available to consider carefully the processes and options that will work best for landowners and electricity network operators. We expect to establish the taskforce in 2023.”
“I am going to close; I have probably been overly provocative and overly long on Northern Ireland. Suffice it to say that the Bill does not apply there, but I will give way to the hon. Gentleman.”
“Friend the Member for North Somerset to support the passage of the Bill. I thank you, Mr Hosie, for your excellent chairmanship, and my civil servants for their hard work. They have not only been working with my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset; as we know, so much of the work is done by his office, so it is through the work of my officials and my right hon. Friend’s office, as well as the occasional appearance by the two of us, that we have been able to make such progress.”
“I am a Minister in the Government of the United Kingdom, and we have devolution and have devolved certain bits away. I might be part of the Government of the United Kingdom, but I cannot go in and take over the function of local planning from democratically elected local authorities, because they have that function, not me. I take the hon. Gentleman’s point, but it would be for others to decide. I am straying into Northern Irish politics, which I am told is a difficult thing to do unless one is deeply well informed, so I will stop there. I have talked enough about it already, so I will back off swiftly. The main point is that the Government support the Bill, which will ensure access to alternative dispute resolution for landowners when land is acquired by transmission owners. I therefore look forward to working with my right hon.”
“The Secretary of State wrote to Ofgem to ensure that it takes a robust approach to compliance. In response, Ofgem is reviewing supplier practice, and a key area of its review is the suppliers’ approach to self-disconnection. But this is continuing work. This afternoon I will be meeting energy suppliers, Ofgem, Energy UK and Citizens Advice to ensure that they hear from the Government, the hon. Gentleman and all hon. Members that there is a strong urge in this House to do everything we can to protect everyone this winter, and most of all, the most vulnerable.”
“It is critical that this support reaches consumers, which is why the Government have also urged suppliers to take action on increasing the number of vouchers being redeemed under the Government’s energy bills support scheme and why we have published a list of supplier redemption rates. We want to encourage suppliers to compare themselves with their rivals and look to do as well as the best, showing which ones are meeting their responsibilities and which need to do more. There are also established industry rules and processes to reduce the risk of self-disconnection. Suppliers are required to have conversations with customers in arrears to set up a suitable debt repayment plan, taking account of their ability to pay. It is vital that these rules are followed.”
“That is why we have put in place unprecedented cost of living support. It is easy to take that for granted, but it is extensive. It includes the £400 discount under the energy bills support scheme, which has been appearing on electricity bills since the October bills arrived this winter, as well as the energy price guarantee, which does not need any form of application process and directly subsidises energy bills for the typical family this winter to the tune of an additional £900, with equivalent support in Northern Ireland. The Government are also committed to supporting those households without a relationship to a domestic energy supplier with a £400 discount under the energy bills support scheme alternative funding, with eligible households able to apply from 27 February.”
“As I set out to the House on Monday, the Government recognise the importance of protecting customers, including those on prepayment meters. This weekend, the Secretary of State set out a five-point plan on prepayment meters. He wrote to energy suppliers, calling on them to take every step to support consumers in difficulty, particularly those who are at risk of self-disconnection. The Government want to see a much greater effort from suppliers to help consumers in payment difficulties, including offers of additional credit, debt forgiveness or debt advice. As the hon. Member for East Lothian (Kenny MacAskill) will be aware, Ofgem, as the independent regulator, is in a position to direct suppliers in a way that the Government are not. The Government understand that this is a difficult time for many families.”
“In 2009, there were issues around the additional costs of prepayment meters. Ofgem had responsibility for supervising that at that time, as it does now, and it looked into the issues and brought in a regime to ensure that any costs and charges were commensurate with the actual costs of delivery. To a certain extent that has all been superseded by the energy price cap brought in by this Government, which limits the amount that anyone can charge for their energy.”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman for his questions. He rightly raises the issue of those who are self-disconnecting. I think we can be proud of the fact that the numbers of people who were physically disconnected from power and heat last year were in single figures. The installation of prepayment meters has to be an absolute last resort. We must insist that people do not end up being physically disconnected from an energy supply. It is important to highlight that all suppliers are required to offer emergency credit when the meter runs out. This should give consumers enough time to top up their meters. Traditional meters have an automatic setting that allows for a set amount of emergency credit to be used after the customer is notified that the topped-up credit has been used. As I have said, we are committed to having the right regime in place.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for his kind words. We are absolutely focused on that, and we all have a role to play in increasing awareness of the vouchers, which are so valuable to people. We want to see more being redeemed, and the numbers are going up consistently. We have published the list of suppliers and we have already brought them together so that they can share best practice. I wanted to publish the list so that it could be seen not only by the House but by the suppliers’ chief executive officers, who I hope will talk to their teams about why they are lower down the list. If all of them, all of us in this House and everyone in the voluntary and other sectors and in local authorities do everything possible to raise awareness, we can lift the number of people who get that help, to which they are entitled.”
“Local authorities need to be able to access the system securely, which requires multi-factor authentication, and some local authorities do not have the ability to implement that quickly. Robust fraud checks are necessary in an application-based system, to which there is no alternative for this group. Each iteration of the application process needs to be tested. I am confident that we will have the portal up by or on Monday 27 February. We will work with local authorities, upon which we rely, and I thank the four pilot authorities and other local authorities. We need to make sure that their staff are trained, that the complexities are dealt with and that they have a robust system, so that they can swiftly process applications and make sure families get the money they so direly need. I fully accept the point about the need for speed.”
“A few days ago, I met the four pilot local authorities, which are across the devolved nations of Great Britain, to talk about the situation. We must make sure that we sort out all those complexities because, if we do not get it right first time, the pilot authorities say it would delay payments to consumers. My priority is to get funding to people as quickly as possible. Where people are not already receiving the main EBSS, we have to look after public money by making sure their bank accounts are verified and legitimate, and that they live at the address. Those records are held across Government, local authorities and banks, so a complex case-management system is required.”
“Those who know the hon. Gentleman will know he is normally better than that. He knows, because we talk about it, just how hard the Department is working to make sure we get these things in place. We are proud that we got the EBSS discount out to an unprecedented 29 million people. I make no apology for prioritising getting the bulk of it out there. The EBSS alternative funding sounds simple, but it is not. It is a novel scheme with ambitious timescales. It is a complex cohort with a range of different energy arrangements, including off grid, direct to commercial and via intermediaries. [ Interruption. ] The hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) chunters from the Front Bench, but she should recognise the complexity of this challenge. When we were looking at February delivery for the portal, I challenged it.”
“Friend has rightly made sure that my focus has remained on this issue by reminding me of her constituents and their need for this help.”
“My hon. Friend is right that identifying the location of park homes might sound relatively simple, and I hope I have made it clear that there are levels of complexity that have to be dealt with. We are doing everything possible to ensure this is done as quickly as possible. Because of council tax bills, this is the busiest time of year for the local authority staff who deal with this. We must have a system that stands up, is robust and delivers on time. As might be expected, I pushed back in every way possible to see if we could open the portal in January, but we could not do so without risking the confidence and support of those local authorities. We will make sure that we have it in place and that we deliver it in the right way. For months, my hon.”
“I am proud of the support that the Government have put in place, and I believe it stands up internationally. We are determined to support people, particularly the most vulnerable, so that they do not suffer at a time of extreme energy stress.”
“I am confident that they are being sent out by the suppliers, so we have to encourage people to cash them in at a time when they need them most. There is always a danger that the people who need it most—we do not have the data—may be the ones least likely to use it. [ Interruption. ] The hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown) can make cheap points and shout at me from a sedentary position, or he can engage seriously and properly by trying to do everything possible to get a system that makes sure people get the help they deserve. That is what I want. If he thinks there are any practical steps that we should be delivering immediately, he should say so. We have said that we will look at a social tariff and at how vulnerable people are looked after, but we have to look at it in a considered manner.”
“The hon. Gentleman said this support has absolutely no meaning, or something close to it. The meaning for those on benefits has been £800 of additional cost of living support, on top of the £400 EBSS support and the £900 of support organised through the Treasury. This is real support. The cheap rhetoric we have heard from the Scottish nationalists might be typical, but even so it is disappointing. The hon. Gentleman says we need to do more than just urging suppliers to do more and to publish data. There is an application. People have to take up their vouchers, and they have to use them. I am all ears to any contribution he would like to make on how to build that up, because the whole of society—families, community groups, MPs and political parties—has to get the message out to people about these vouchers.”
“As my hon. Friend will be aware, there is a series of programmes to support people in those positions, and £800 for all people on benefits in addition to the sums that he has already itemised for the House.”
“That kind of crude socialist intervention in the market would be counterproductive, and it would be typical of measures that come from the Labour party. Its members go in with high talk of helping the weakest and poorest and they come up with policies that have exactly the opposite effect.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for her extremely pertinent question. We will be promoting through a whole array of groups and, of course, local authorities are key partners in that. We will be looking for support from colleagues across the House, from local authorities, and from the voluntary sector. We have also been doing a larger-scale public communications exercise than the Department has ever previously engaged with. In answer to her final question: for those who are not easily able to access the Government portal, there will be a telephone support service as well. Again, this will be an application-based system. We will not get to 100%, but I hope that we can work constructively. All ideas are welcome so that we do everything we can to maximise the take-up and make sure that people get the support to which they are entitled.”