Graham Stuart
MP for Beverley and Holderness · Conservative · United Kingdom
“I hope and expect that we can move forward in the right way and get the balance right between being overly prescriptive to the banking industry and setting a clear sense of direction to make sure that no one is left behind, as so many Members have set out.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Wishart. I congratulate the hon. Member for South Devon (Caroline Voaden) on securing this debate.”
“Is my hon. Friend as astonished as I am that the Minister—I know she is new to her post—has come here to propose a six-month extension of the movement of costs from bills to the Exchequer and cannot tell the Committee how much money that will cost?”
“The Minister is being most generous again. I did not ask her about protecting consumers from energy price shocks; I asked about a clear, unequivocal manifesto pledge to reduce household energy bills by £300. She, like her predecessors, refuses to address it directly. It was a clear promise.”
“Banking hubs themselves came out of an industry response from the NatWest executive. Does the Minister agree that we must present the information from the Lloyd review to the banking groups, be clear about what we want, and give them the opportunity to respond and provide a solution, as they did with banking hubs, so that we can perhaps a…”
“I am pleased to say that Lloyds listened and, as of this morning, people can deposit cheques at those places. These issues being raised by Members across the House today are important. I trust that given the timing of the Richard Lloyd report, the Minister in her seat will make sure that they are be resolved to everyone’s satisfaction.”
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“Ordered, That a Bill be brought in upon the foregoing Resolution relating to Out-of-Turn Supplementary Estimates, 2022-23; That the Chairman of Ways and Means, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Edward Argar, Andrew Griffith, Richard Fuller and Felicity Buchan bring in the Bill. Supply and Appropriation (Adjustments) Bill Presentation and First Reading, and remaining stages Andrew Griffith accordingly presented a Bill to authorise the use of resources for the year ending with 31 March 2023; to authorise the issue of sums out of the Consolidated Fund for that year; and to appropriate the supply authorised by this Act for that year. Bill read the First time; to be printed (Bill 170). Motion made, and Question put forthwith ( Order, 19 October, and Standing Order No. 56), That the Bill be now read a Second time. Question agreed to .”
“Resolved, That, for the year ending with 31 March 2023— (1) for expenditure by the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy: (a) further resources, not exceeding £60,176,000,000, be authorised for use for current purposes as set out in HC 794 of Session 2022-23, and (b) a further sum, not exceeding £60,176,000,000, be granted to His Majesty to be issued by the Treasury out of the Consolidated Fund and applied for expenditure on the use of resources authorised by Parliament; and (2) for expenditure by HM Treasury: (a) further resources, not exceeding £11,175,000,000, be authorised for use for capital purposes as set out in HC 794 of Session 2022-23, and (b) a further sum, not exceeding £11,175,000,000, be granted to His Majesty to be issued by the Treasury out of the Consolidated Fund and applied for expenditure on the use of resources authorised by Parliament.”
“Looking beyond April, the Government cannot continue to be exposed to the volatility of wholesale gas and electricity prices. That would be unsustainable for both the taxpayer and the public finances. That is why the Government are committed to reviewing both the energy price guarantee scheme and the energy bill relief scheme to consider how we may support households and businesses over the longer term from April 2023. Question put and agreed to.”
“The scheme will run from October to March 2023. That is in addition to the £400 energy discount provided by the Government for all households through the energy bills support scheme. Support will be provided to non-domestic energy customers including businesses, charities, schools and hospitals through the energy bill relief scheme. That will provide a discount on non-domestic energy bills to protect against the significantly inflated wholesale gas and electricity prices that have affected non-domestic customers. That scheme will operate from October to March 2023 and provide an equivalent level of support to the domestic scheme. The schemes, taken together, will provide essential support to families and businesses to see them through the winter.”
“I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. It is great that she mentions particular difficult cases with such passion. She will recognise that moving at speed to try to create something comparable for everyone, as we did, is challenging and complex. The purpose of the review is absolutely to look across the piece. We will continue to monitor the prices that people have to put up with, whether they are off grid or on communal heating networks, and we will also look to ensure that any future intervention is done in a way that is as fair and well informed as possible. Through the energy price guarantee scheme, we are capping the price that consumers will pay for their electricity and gas bills, reducing the average household bill by about a third this winter and saving a typical household about £700.”
“My constituency has a lot of people who are off grid; I have spent a lot of time fighting the inequities of Government systems of support, which too often are shaped around urban needs and ignore or try to fit the rural into some urban pattern. That does not work, and too often the system, under successive Governments, has failed properly to recognise the needs of rural areas that, because of their natural grittiness, put up with it more than they should.”
“It is a great pleasure and privilege to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Murray—for the first time, I think. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Fay Jones) on securing the debate. We can see how motivated rural colleagues are across the House; we have the Liberal Democrats here, we have Plaid Cymru, the SNP, the SDLP and of course a large mass of Conservative Members. It is pretty shocking, given the importance and topicality of the issue, that His Majesty’s Opposition did not even bother to turn up. I thank everyone else for doing so, and for taking this issue seriously. Colleagues will know that I have long been involved in this issue.”
“That is why, quite rightly, colleagues have pressed me and the Government to monitor the situation and to be prepared to intervene if necessary. I cannot pledge precisely that that intervention would happen, but we are going to monitor the situation with a view to being able to intervene if necessary and maintain the equity that I assure colleagues is in place.”
“The energy price guarantee lowers that increase, through unparalleled Government intervention to support people, which I think we can be proud of and should do a better job of trumpeting. Over the same period the price of heating oil rose by 150%. It has been dampened by the EPG for on-grid homes to 130%. Probably due to market competition and lack of Government intervention—I am not saying that that is the only explanation—heating oil rose by 150%. That is where the £100 comes in. I beg colleagues on all side of the House to stop the hare running; there is comparable support. I can say that as someone with many oil-heated and LPG homes in my constituency; it is comparable. The question is about going forward—what if prices spike?”
“We have looked at the numbers for September last year to September this year. LPG, coal and biomass have risen less than heating oil. The average price of heating oil in September 2021 was 40.6p per litre in Great Britain. A year later, that average price is 100.3p. For those colleagues who have talked about a 60% rise, it actually comes to a 147% rise. The average use of heating oil over a year is 1,514 litres; that used to cost £615, but has gone up to £1,415. That has a serious impact on those with the least. I have already talked through the £37 billion package. The difference in the current bill is around £100—that has been the rise. The cost of heating for the average on-grid home would have increased by approximately 220% in that same year to October.”
“There is a lot of support for all of our more vulnerable and rural constituents. The hare that is running—and this has been repeated by my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire today—is that it is inequitable. On the face of it, that £100 intuitively does not feel right. However, I will take colleagues through the numbers and explain why there is equity, while also recognising the issue of monitoring. That is important, and the Government are going to monitor the situation going forward. Heating oil prices have risen more than prices for other alternative fuels such as coal, biomass and others. The Government have picked a point in time; we looked at what the situation was going into winter last year and compared it with this year—then we have sought to provide protection.”
“As ever, my hon. Friend is absolutely right, and has gone to the heart of the issue. The Government recognise and understand the pressures that people are facing with the cost of living. This is a deeply worrying time for many of our constituents, and we will continue to listen to their concerns, which have been well expressed by many colleagues today. Wholesale energy prices have been rising due to global pressures, and the UK is hardly alone in feeling the pinch. It is important to recognise how significantly this Government have stepped in. Back in May, £37 billion of support was announced, which altogether means that the most vulnerable households are receiving £1,200 a year—£100 a month—before we get to the energy price guarantee and the alternative fuel payments. It is important to put that on the record.”
“We do not have a database of everybody—they are not forced to register—so we are finding practical ways and looking to find designated parties to help to administer the scheme, and to do so in real time, this winter; having a perfect system next winter is of no help to people who need help now.”
“Let me return to my scripted speech, which I seem to have entirely ignored so far, and hope to get to that answer. The energy bill support scheme—there are so many; I struggle with the acronyms myself, and I am responsible for them—provides £400 per household to assist with the cost of rising energy prices and in most cases is being delivered automatically through domestic energy suppliers. There is a small proportion of households, including off-grid homes, that will experience increased energy costs but do not have those domestic energy supply contracts. I assure hon. Members that the Government are committed to ensuring that they receive support for energy costs. We are working rapidly to ensure that off-grid households will be able to apply for the scheme. We do not have a centrally controlled society.”
“Some forms of delivery will be more burdensome administratively than others, but for the most part, where we are able to do things automatically, consumers have to do nothing.”
“I am going to press on as I have so little time left. The alternative fuel payment is an additional one-off payment of £100, which is provided equally. Both schemes will be delivered across the UK and we have been working with devolved Administrations to understand how best to deliver it. It is important that all households receive support from the Government this winter, including harder-to-reach households that are not benefiting from the energy price guarantee or automatic energy bill support. There were questions earlier about park homes and farmers. Our aim would be a system that ensures that each household receives the support. We are looking to find the right counterparties in Northern Ireland and GB to make sure that that is in place.”
“Will the hon. Gentleman bear with me? I have so little time left and I would like to get these points on the record. The Government are seeking to ensure that nobody is inadvertently excluded from the generous package of support that is being provided. As the Chancellor emphasised in his statement on Wednesday, the Government’s priority will always be to support the most vulnerable. That is why we are ensuring that individuals not covered by other schemes will be able to apply for the £400 of energy bill support and, if relevant, the additional £100 alternative fuel payment.”
“I completely agree with my hon. Friend. As well as getting the policy right, a lot of government is about communication and I hope there will be a “Dear colleague” letter, working with colleagues, to get those messages out. I am sure no one would want to say that maintaining something was not fair, when it in fact was—we have to get the information out there and it is our responsibility to do that.”
“The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right and there are two parts to our interventions, one for business and one for homes. If the homes scheme is complex, the business one is even more so. There is a vast variety of contracts. Coming into this Department from elsewhere in Government, I have been amazed at the quality of work done by officials. They have been working nights and weekends, day after day. I am just on the receiving end of the submissions and feel a bit knocked down; they are producing the schemes succinctly, and dealing with very complex issues and delicate balancing acts, to make sure that we balance timely intervention against perfection. Perfection is not possible. What we can do and what we will work on, with the help of colleagues, is to be transparent.”
“We are trying to get payment to those who have bought ahead. In terms of timing, we cannot time payment exactly with when they are purchasing. What we can seek to do is to make sure that they are getting comparable levels of support and that we are monitoring the situation going forward. Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)).”
“It is a great pleasure to wind up this debate, to which there have been so many excellent contributions from across the House. Perhaps not for the first time, the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband)—he is an extremely clever man, for whom I have a great deal of respect—has been a little bit too clever by half. Perhaps if more drafting had gone into this, instead of seizing the Order Paper we could have had a different style— [Interruption.] It was an attempt to seize the Order Paper. Quite clearly, this is not a confidence vote— [Interruption.] Obviously, this is not a confidence vote; it is an attempt— [Interruption.]”
“I will not give way. [ Interruption. ] The right hon. Gentleman is getting over-excited. He has described himself as a nerd—accurately, of course. Perhaps he should have spent more time looking at parliamentary procedure. I am proud to say that this Government have led the way in reducing emissions and moving towards net zero. When the right hon. Gentleman left power in 2010, not only was there that note that said there was no money left, but less than 7% of our electricity—around 6.8%—came from renewables. It is the Conservative party that has delivered the green revolution and will continue to do so. That means that more than 40%— [ Interruption. ] Madam Deputy Speaker, are they allowed to maintain this ridiculous stunt? It is bad enough—”
“Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It has brought calm to the Opposition to point out that only 7% of electricity came from renewables when they left power, but the figure is more than 40% today. If we look at energy efficiency and people who are struggling to heat their homes today, what percentage of houses had an energy performance certificate rating of C and above when Labour left power? [ Interruption. ] The hon. Member for Hove (Peter Kyle) wants to tell me from a sedentary position, but I will tell him that it was 14%. What is it today? It is 46%. The Conservative party is moving this country towards net zero, and not only are we doing that at home but we are leading internationally as well.”
“May I at least answer this without being permanently harassed by the right hon. Gentleman, who should learn to sit? My hon. Friend has seen the transformation of the whole economics of offshore wind. He has seen this Government put in place the contracts for difference, which are being copied all around the world.”
“The right hon. Gentleman was so excited to repeat something I had already said multiple times. Colleagues on this side of the House are perfectly clear. They are not going to surrender or allow the Labour party to become the Government for a day by seizing control of the Order Paper.”
“Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. We will continue to lead the world and drive forward offshore and onshore wind and solar energy, we will have SMRs and gigawatt-level nuclear, as well as support for AMRs, and we will come forward with proposals to support hydrogen and CCUS. We are looking all across the piece to drive the green revolution, but as part of that work we need to secure the gas and oil we rely on at the moment as we manage and drive down our usage on the path to net zero.”
“Friend the Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton (Nick Gibb), my right hon. Friend and neighbour the Member for East Yorkshire (Sir Greg Knight), and my right hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Sir Robert Goodwill), up the coast from me.”
“That is a matter for party managers, and I am not a party manager. Community support is so important. That is why, as we heard the Secretary of State say today, we have pledged that there will be the community veto we have heard so much about from colleagues including my hon. Friends the Members for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), for North Dorset (Simon Hoare), for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous), for Taunton Deane (Rebecca Pow), for Winchester (Steve Brine), for Gloucester (Richard Graham), for Bolsover (Mark Fletcher), for South Thanet (Craig Mackinlay), for Worcester (Mr Walker), for Rother Valley (Alexander Stafford), for Rushcliffe (Ruth Edwards), for Blackpool South (Scott Benton), for Ashfield (Lee Anderson), and for Leigh (James Grundy), as well as my right hon.”
“That is why we will continue to make sure that we develop. It is why we are issuing licences and blocks in the North sea, so that we can produce domestic oil and gas as we manage that pathway down. We will—”
“It is interesting to see on his feet the Liberal Democrat Member who in his speech suggested that not a drop more gas or oil should come out of the ground, forgetting that 75% of our energy needs today are met by fossil fuels. It is this Government who are leading the green transformation to take us away from fossil fuels. It is this Government who are driving forward net zero, not only here but, equally important, all around the world. It is my right hon. Friend the Member for Reading West (Alok Sharma) who, as President of COP26, has moved the world from having just 30% of global GDP covered by net zero pledges in 2019 to more than 90% today. It is that transformation of the global position on the pathway to net zero that has been critical, as well as the development of net zero at home.”
“Clauses 9 to 12 will introduce a scheme that enables the Government to reduce the charges for electricity and gas supplied by licensed electricity suppliers to eligible non-domestic customers in Great Britain and Northern Ireland. This scheme represents significant and bold action to protect all eligible non-domestic customers, including businesses, charities and the public sector, such as hospitals and schools, from excessively high energy bills over the winter period. Without this intervention, the wider negative effects of this economic pressure would be severe and would materialise very quickly.”
“Clause1, together with clauses 2 to 8, provides for the establishment in legislation of the energy price guarantee schemes in Great Britain and Northern Ireland for electricity and gas. The EPG represents significant and bold action that will help to protect families from the spiralling cost of energy. This clause provides for the establishment of the EPG schemes and for them to be amended and revoked. For example, the schemes could be amended to change the eligible tariffs or the amount of financial support provided. The GB scheme has been operational from 1 October and delivered through contracts between the Secretary of State and energy suppliers. The Bill will put the scheme on a more secure statutory footing. The House will be aware that the Chancellor’s statement intends to refine the scheme after six months.”
“We are facing a global energy crisis, which has been exacerbated by Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine. This Bill puts support to help people, businesses, charities and the public sector across the UK with their energy bills on a secure legislative footing. It is a vital step in delivering the necessary package of assistance for the whole of the UK. We are putting the Bill through in an expedited way, and I thank His Majesty’s Opposition and other parties for their constructive engagement with us ahead of today. It is important that I put on record what the Bill will do, but I will seek to be brief because a number of Members are keen to speak to their amendments.”
“This is essential for the delivery of the various energy price support schemes and the administrative tying-up of them at the end part. Clauses 16 to 18 allow the Government to break the link between high gas prices and cheap low-carbon electricity. These measures will allow the Government to take decisive action, through subsequent regulations, for a payment administrator to obtain excessive revenues from low-carbon electricity generators. This temporary measure will help more fairly to reflect the cheap costs of low-carbon generation. Clause 18, which extends the contracts for difference scheme to existing low-carbon electricity generators, will grant such generators longer-term revenue certainty.”
“The hon. Gentleman’s question goes to the heart of the matter, which is that, if it were not for this intervention, those businesses would have been facing very high costs. We are committed to a review after three months, which will look at those who are least able to alter their energy use and come forward with proposals to help them in due course. That is why this is so important, but because of the costs and the impact, it needs to be time limited. Clauses 13 to 15 will introduce powers for the Secretary of State to allow the Government to take steps, including the giving of financial assistance, to respond to the energy crisis, and to designate other bodies to take action in support of such steps. The power to give financial support is a time-limited power, at three years and six months.”
“Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband), this will not determine the prices that households pay, but it will enable the Government to identify what level of support is needed to deliver the prices in the energy price guarantee. So it has a different purpose, but a useful one, in delivering the EPG. Finally, clauses 21 to 23 provide the power to enable the Secretary of State to modify energy licence conditions urgently, as necessary, and give directions to support the response to the energy crisis.”
“As the hon. Gentleman knows, this legislation lays out the remit of the Secretary of State, under the powers within the Bill, to intervene to protect businesses and consumers. That is its central aim. Clause 19 ensures that the support schemes I have mentioned reach their intended beneficiaries. The requirement to pass on energy price support will help to ensure that tenants and other end users receive the support they need. Clause 20 will make amendments to the existing price cap legislation to support the delivery of the energy price guarantee. The clause will ensure that Ofgem continues to calculate the cap level to determine what it costs an efficient energy supplier to provide a household with gas and/or electricity. In response to the points made by the right hon.”
“The affirmative procedure will be used for the first regulations precisely to allow us to define that, understand that and ensure that we are targeting the organisations we wish to target and excluding those we do not. On Henry VIII powers, and why clauses 21 and 22 do not have sunset clauses, the Bill makes clear that the clauses must be used in response to the current energy situation, or in connection with the Act, regulations or schemes within it. The vast majority of the powers in the Bill are time-limited, including the powers to make regulations and schemes that might require such modifications and directions.”
“I thank all speakers for their contributions, which have been typically thoughtful. It was a pleasure for the whole Committee and it seemed right to have the ever-genial hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) bringing the Back Bench contributions to a close. I have a lot to cover but will none the less try to keep myself to a limited time. The hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead), who spoke for His Majesty’s Opposition, asked whether we will need to amend the Bill because of the changes announced this morning by the Chancellor. Counsel’s advice is that we will not. The powers in the Bill fit perfectly well with that six-month period and any review and extension that comes thereafter. He also asked about the definition of electricity generators, including community groups, and the appropriateness of that.”
“I am going to press on, if I may. Turning to amendments 2, 3, 10 and 11, and new clauses 7, 9 and 17, for amendments 10 and 11, designating a scheme is simply a matter of identifying the scheme documents that the Secretary of State already has the powers to provide. Therefore, the affirmative procedure would be disproportionate. New clause 7 requires the undertaking of an impact assessment on setting the price reduction at pre-April Ofgem cap levels. The unprecedented level of support introduced via the scheme and others in the Bill means that I do not think this is necessary and I ask Members not to press it to a Division.”
“I move on to amendments 19, 17, 18 and 7, new clause 5 and amendment 5 on the energy bill relief scheme. On amendments 17 and 19, the Government fully intend to introduce regulations under clause 9 and we expect them to be laid in Parliament by the beginning of November. I have committed to publishing a review of the scheme in three months.”
“I have so much to do and a duty to cover as much as I can, having agreed not to go on too long. New clause 9 aims to remove regional variations from standing charges. Ofgem, which is responsible for the network charging regime, is considering that matter and we should not pre-empt the review’s outcome in the Bill. Amendments 2 and 3 aim to enable the backdating of the gas price reduction scheme in Great Britain to begin from 8 September. The Government have designed the scheme to work in combination with the 22 May cost of living package to which I referred. That ensures that the most vulnerable households will see little change in their energy between last winter and this. I therefore do not see any need to alter the operative date of the energy price guarantee schemes.”
“Indeed. On amendments 5 and 7, I am pleased to note that the hon. Members for North Shropshire (Helen Morgan) and for Richmond Park (Sarah Olney) agree with my decision to extend the eligibility date for customers on fixed-term contracts back to 1 December 2021. I hope that they also welcome our commitment to review the scheme, and I hope that that will please the hon. Member for Brent North.”
“I addressed new clause 1 in my remarks at the beginning of the Committee. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman was here, but if he was, he should have paid attention, and if he was not, I suggest he should have been. I turn to amendments 16, 6 and 9 and new clauses 12 and 10 regarding consumers who are off the gas grid. Amendment 16 seeks to establish a domestic fuel reduction scheme in Great Britain for off-gas grid homes. The Government are providing a set payment to such homes through the alternative fuel payment scheme. There has been a lot of attention on off-grid homes.”
“I will not. Amendments 6 and 9 and new clause 12 would require equivalent support for domestic and non-domestic consumers. We have committed to providing equivalent support for consumers on alternative fuels. The Secretary of State has said that he will put the workings in the Library, and I appeal to hon. Members on both sides of the Committee to recognise that the support is comparable. It is therefore important not to tell those who are off-grid that they are not getting comparable support when indeed they are.”
“The hon. Gentleman has just shown why no one in the Chamber wished me to give way to him, other than himself. The Government have committed to delivery of the payment this winter. Requiring that payment to be made directly to consumer bank accounts would significantly slow this down. Similarly, new clause 10 would require the Government to implement a heating oil voucher scheme for households in Northern Ireland. Again, that would significantly slow down delivery, so one of the challenges that we have had in engineering the various programmes is to make sure—”
“There are many statutes that include the word “may” from which we can take it that the Government will do what is set out. I am pleased to say that it is absolutely our intention to ensure that those off grid are treated comparably to those on grid.”
“(2) The Report must set out projections of the effect of the reduction set out in subsection (1) on domestic and non-domestic energy bills.”— (Dr Whitehead.) This new clause requires the Secretary of State to produce a report assessing the impact of reducing the investment allowance for oil and gas companies as set out in the Energy (Oil and Gas) Profits Levy Act from 80% to 5%, and in particular to assess such a reduction’s impact on domestic and non-domestic bills. Brought up, and read the First time. Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.”
“New Clause 3 Report on additional expenditure treated as incurred for purposes of section 1 of the Energy (Oil and Gas) Profits Levy Act 2022 “(1) The Secretary of State must, within six months of the date of Royal Assent to this Act, publish and lay before Parliament a report on the effect of reducing the amount of the allowance under section 2(3) of the Energy (Oil and Gas) Profits Levy Act from 80% to 5%.”
“It is also worth saying, on the record, that renewables obligation certificates and other support mechanisms are being entirely honoured; this measure is merely about the spot price, which is excessive. We will come forward with further proposals in due course and will consult with the industry and others to ensure that we act in a way that does not disincentivise investment. Question put and agreed to. Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clauses 2 to 30 ordered to stand part of the Bill.”