Graham Stuart
MP for Beverley and Holderness · Conservative · United Kingdom
“I hope and expect that we can move forward in the right way and get the balance right between being overly prescriptive to the banking industry and setting a clear sense of direction to make sure that no one is left behind, as so many Members have set out.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Wishart. I congratulate the hon. Member for South Devon (Caroline Voaden) on securing this debate.”
“Is my hon. Friend as astonished as I am that the Minister—I know she is new to her post—has come here to propose a six-month extension of the movement of costs from bills to the Exchequer and cannot tell the Committee how much money that will cost?”
“The Minister is being most generous again. I did not ask her about protecting consumers from energy price shocks; I asked about a clear, unequivocal manifesto pledge to reduce household energy bills by £300. She, like her predecessors, refuses to address it directly. It was a clear promise.”
“Banking hubs themselves came out of an industry response from the NatWest executive. Does the Minister agree that we must present the information from the Lloyd review to the banking groups, be clear about what we want, and give them the opportunity to respond and provide a solution, as they did with banking hubs, so that we can perhaps a…”
“I am pleased to say that Lloyds listened and, as of this morning, people can deposit cheques at those places. These issues being raised by Members across the House today are important. I trust that given the timing of the Richard Lloyd report, the Minister in her seat will make sure that they are be resolved to everyone’s satisfaction.”
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“I felt that this was the right thing to do to ensure speedy delivery of this support to her houseboat owners among others. It is also worth noting that they have seen support if they come through a commercial supplier of electricity through the energy bill relief scheme, but I want to see them get their £400 as well, and I want a system that works, is effective and is as quick as possible.”
“I thank the hon. Lady for her question. I think she will find that the letter stated that the Government had announced that the scheme would open in January, which was true—we did announce that we aimed to open it in January. The pilot and engagement with local authorities has shown that we need to delay that to February, so I organised briefings yesterday afternoon to make sure that all Members of the House had heard about that. I am also seeking to notify the House as quickly as possible by writing to Select Committee Chairmen and others to let them know. We are doing everything possible to make sure that we have a robust system in place. I set out that this is a novel system: it is complex and it does rely on local authorities. It was after personally meeting representatives of those pilot local authorities that I came to the decision.”
“Those people must be able to do something and the installation of a prepayment meter, if absolutely necessary, as a last resort and under warrant if they will not engage in any other way, means that household still has access to energy, so long as they put some credit on. That is a lot better than bailiffs and a total physical cut-off. We can be proud of the fact that we do not have people cut off from their energy supply, although, admittedly, as the right hon. Member says, they have to put money on the meter in order to be able to access it.”
“The point about a physical disconnection—I think that there may have been only one in the UK last year—is that it differs from what happens with a prepayment meter. By having a prepayment meter, no matter what pre-existing debts someone may have, as soon as they have money to put credit on, they can recommence their energy supply. Physical disconnection is when a person is literally cut off and then has to re-apply to get their supply back. That is an alternative that I do not want to see. The prepayment system is an absolute last resort for those who run up large energy bills, do not engage with the supplier and show no sign that they will pay.”
“I thank the hon. Lady for her question. If she will follow that up with some details, I will happily write to her and come back on the specific points she has raised.”
“We will triage that first, to minimise the imposition on local authorities, but they will have to go through a process to get the payment out. That means I cannot give a definitive date, much as I would like to, and much as the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) is right to suggest that it would benefit people to know when they will get the support to which they are entitled. I hope he understands that, administratively, if I gave a date there would be a risk that I would be back before the House again to explain why, in some cases, it was not delivered. We will do it as quickly as we can but, having talked to the pilot local authorities, they feel that we are taking the most robust approach with the best chance of getting the payment out as quickly as possible.”
“The decision was made yesterday and I was able to brief colleagues, including the hon. Gentleman—I thank him for attending the meeting—yesterday afternoon, so I have tried to move as quickly as possible. Of course, until a decision is made, Government policy stays as it is until it is changed, and that explains the letter. I certainly hope that the hon. Member for Twickenham (Munira Wilson) would accept that I was not being disingenuous. We moved to communicate as quickly as possible once the decision had been made. The payment will go through local authorities. Much as I would love to give a define date, it depends when people apply. We will be encouraging people to apply from 27 February—if that is when the scheme launches—and then local authorities will be carrying out their verification.”
“Following this urgent question, I will seek an answer for those on alternative fuels who are in the majority group; it might be where we are at in our data development, but I have not seen a number on that. If I can access that, I will write to the right hon. Gentleman, and I will seek a way of sharing it with the House. Most people will be paid automatically with a credit to their energy bill, which will be ready at the beginning of February. I suppose that may not appear on the bill until March, but we will have that up and running automatically for those with an energy bill. We hope to use the same portal that is being used for the EBSS £400 alternative fuel payment, and to open it very shortly after the opening of the EBSS alternative portal. When I have further specific dates that I can share, I will do so.”
“It is a novel system; those working in local authorities on council tax are used to collecting money in rather than putting it out, but we are doing everything we can and I am grateful for the work of local authorities for the commitment they have shown, at a really busy time, in Wales, Scotland and England to try to make sure the payment is delivered.”
“The hon. Gentleman is quite right to highlight the residents of Castle View House and the park home residents in his constituency, who are waiting and expecting to hear that they will get the support to which they are entitled. I am confident that we will have the scheme open on or by 27 February, and I and my teams will do everything to make sure that happens. We are working through local authorities, so we must ensure that we have all the procedures—some of which I touched on—properly worked through, and that we have local authority staff trained up so that they can then process the payment. I am afraid that is as far as I can go right now.”
“The hon. Lady has passionately espoused the interests of her constituents over a considerable time, and I share and understand her frustration. She did not find this out yesterday by chance, but in a briefing with me that was arranged for Members right across the House. I am absolutely focused on making sure that the portal opens on or before Monday 27 February, and that we then get the money out to those who are entitled to it, with due protections for public money as well as a focus on delivery for them.”
“I am meeting suppliers this afternoon, and I will be pressuring them and continuing to talk to them about ensuring that they do everything possible to support people and provide them with emergency credit, repayment programmes and everything possible to avert their getting in a position where they have to have forcible implementation of prepayment meters, and to look after those who are on them and ensure that they are in a position where they can continue to access their heat and light.”
“I pay tribute to the hon. Lady for her focus on and proper championing of this issue. I am not the Secretary of State but, as the Minister for Energy and Climate, I will instruct my office to reach out to hers and try to set up a meeting with the APPG sooner rather than later.”
“I do not think I identified capacity issues as such; it is more about a set of complex issues that need to be resolved and then, having resolved them, providing suitable guidance for local authorities so that they are in a position to make the payment. I did say that it is challenging times for local authorities, because they are also doing council tax, but I am not hearing from them that there is some quick fix. We need people who are already trained to be able to use the systems, and it is through those systems that we will be able to ensure that the payment goes out. We are working with local authorities on the pilots, and I am grateful for their help in shaping the system and the guidance that will go to the other local authorities across the country.”
“I meet Ofgem regularly—we will be meeting again this afternoon—and those are precisely the kinds of conversations we have. Ofgem is working hard on coming down on the suppliers and it has looked into making sure that suppliers do not build up unjustified credits. I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, but it is Ofgem’s role as the independent regulator to supervise, regulate and ensure that the licence conditions under which suppliers operate are fulfilled. We are doing everything possible to ensure that we hold Ofgem’s feet to the fire while it holds suppliers’ feet to the fire.”
“I share the hon. Lady’s frustration. Obviously we would have liked it to get to them sooner, but I have laid out the reasons why it has not. If their electricity is supplied by a commercial supplier, the energy bill relief scheme has been directly reducing their bills through that supplier. We have put in place legislation to require those Government interventions to be passed on to the end recipient.”
“I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we will look carefully at the cost pressures across different markets, as we did when we came up with the alternative fuel payment, which was originally £100 before we doubled it to £200. I know that that is making a difference in Northern Ireland, and it will make a difference in rural areas around the UK.”
“It sounds simple—if I were in opposition, I would probably shout at the Government to get it done, because it sounds so easy—but it turns out that it is complex. We are working as hard as we can to put those schemes in place a place even though energy is devolved and we should not have any responsibility at all—we have stepped up because we have had to, and we will continue to do so in this particular area. I very much hope to see the institutions restored in Northern Ireland and the Northern Irish people served by the people they elect.”
“It was a pleasure to see the hon. Gentleman in his constituency last week; to meet community organisations there, including the Consumer Council, which hosted us; and to learn about the situation for people in Northern Ireland who are struggling with their energy bills. He is right to highlight the fact that businesses and others are struggling. That is why we brought in the EBRS, and why we will have the energy bills discount scheme from April. We will keep that under advisement. Of course, in Northern Ireland—more than in the rest of the UK—many companies use alternative fuels, and we are, again, working on ensuring that we put support in place as soon as we can. But because of the nature of that, there is no central database, and we have to manage public funds.”
“General Election (Public Support) Bill Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57 ) Richard Burgon presented a Bill to provide for a mechanism for an early general election to be held in certain circumstances, where the public has demonstrated support for such an election; and for connected purposes. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 17 March , and to be printed (Bill 23 7 ).”
“Ofgem is responsible for regulating that area. As I understand it, Ofgem looked into it in 2009 and made some changes then. It required suppliers to make cost-reflective charges only—charges had to be based genuinely on the additional costs of delivery—but that has, to a certain extent, been obviated by the energy price cap, which has put a tariff limit on what any company can charge. I will make sure that I get a letter to the hon. Gentleman on this topic. Bills Presented National Parks (Camping) Bill Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57 ) Richard Foord presented a Bill to provide for a right to camp in National Parks; and for connected purposes. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 24 March, and to be printed (Bill 235).”
“In the light of the new developments and SMRs, we will be looking at a different approach.”
“We would welcome their views and input as part of that consultation in due course. In addition, we would welcome views from Kent County Council and Folkestone and Hythe District Council, which have previously been in touch with my Department, and share my hon. Friend’s commitment and enthusiasm for nuclear energy and the nuclear community at Dungeness. My hon. Friend asked if I would meet them, and I would be glad to do so. Given developments happening in the not-too-distant future, we should seek to make the timing of that most appropriate and useful. That might not be immediately, but I am happy to meet him and the councils. As a first step towards designating the new nuclear NPS, the Government are developing an overall siting strategy for the long term, including advanced nuclear technology.”
“More widely, we are providing greater funding to support future nuclear development, which includes the £120 million future nuclear enabling fund to support new nuclear projects, including SMRs, and the £75 million nuclear fuel fund, as we seek to get ourselves and our allies off dependence on Russian uranium. To reflect the changing technological and policy landscape, and to support the transition to net zero, the Government will develop a new national policy statement—NPS—for nuclear energy infrastructure deployable after 2025. That will be subject to the usual process of public consultation and parliamentary scrutiny in due course. Dungeness’s history, at the forefront of nuclear energy in the UK, means that there is a highly skilled workforce and a valuable community of nuclear experts in my hon. Friend’s constituency.”
“SMRs could offer a potential route for the UK to enhance its capability in engineering and manufacturing, through innovation, advanced techniques and new facilities. They could bring significant regional and socioeconomic benefits, including the creation of high-value manufacturing and engineering jobs. We have been progressing the development of SMRs through the advanced nuclear fund, which includes a significant Government investment of up to £210 million to develop the Rolls-Royce SMR, and up to £170 million to support advanced modular reactor demonstrations, which is the next stage of development.”
“He is correct that small modular reactors, or SMRs, as well as new gigawatt-scale projects, such as Hinkley Point C and Sizewell C, will be important in delivering our nuclear ambitions. I welcome the support and enthusiasm that my hon. Friend and the community he mentioned at Dungeness have shown for nuclear energy generally, and specifically for new nuclear technologies such as SMRs. Their smaller size and factory-based modular construction potentially allow for more flexible deployment options, as my hon. Friend set out, and reduced build and schedule risks, compared with large nuclear power stations. If Sizewell following Hinkley allows the benefits of replication, imagine having a factory producing four a year on a consistent basis.”
“The aim is to replicate Hinkley Point C at Sizewell, with the benefits of repeating the same form of construction. The British energy security strategy also announced the Government’s intention to set up a new flagship body, Great British Nuclear or GBN, which will be tasked with helping projects through the development process and developing a resilient pipeline of new-build projects to support the Government’s nuclear ambitions, which will interest my hon. Friend. The Government will make an announcement on the set up of GBN—in the not-too-distant future, I hope. GBN is being developed in close collaboration with industry, ensuring it has the capability and capacity to deliver the Government’s ambition. We now come to where my hon. Friend has led me.”
“That is why we took the crucial step to invest £700 million in Sizewell C. Following that investment, the Government have become a 50% shareholder in the project’s development, with EDF. That was an historic moment: making the first direct state backing of a nuclear project in this country in more than 30 years. It is our biggest step so far towards increasing our national energy independence, facilitating a further 3.2 GW of reliable electricity, which can power up to 6 million homes. The benefits of that project include supporting about 10,000 jobs at the peak of construction, and plans to create 1,500 apprenticeships to help build the nuclear workforce of the future. That will be a tremendous boost to the UK, building on the progress made by Hinkley Point C.”
“The strategy set out a stretching programme with an ambition to deploy up to 24 GW of nuclear power by 2050, which would represent, on current estimates, around 25% of projected electricity demand in the UK economy. The Hinkley Point C power plant is at the forefront of our plans. Hinkley Point C will make a vital contribution to our energy security by generating 7% of Great Britain’s current electricity demand. Despite challenges, construction there continues at pace, and Hinkley Point C will provide an enormous boost to both the local and national economy, providing more than 25,000 new employment opportunities. As of October 2022, 1,000 apprentices had been trained during the construction phase of that project, showing on that site the economic impact that nuclear can have. We need more new nuclear, beyond Hinkley Point C.”
“Friend said, Dungeness A opened in 1965, providing 40 years of operation, and Dungeness B was the first advanced gas-cooled reactor to be constructed in the UK, generating enough low-carbon energy to meet the needs of every home in Kent for more than 50 years. The Government recognise the important role that nuclear energy has to play in reducing greenhouse gas emissions to net zero by 2050, in ensuring our energy security—if the last year has shown us anything, it is the importance we need to put on energy security in the decades ahead—and, as my hon. Friend set out so well, in providing highly skilled jobs that underpin a clean and prosperous economic future. That is why we published the British energy security strategy in April 2022, making a firm commitment to new nuclear.”
“It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Cummins—I think it is the first time I have had the privilege. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins), who, from his maiden speech onwards, has made it his business to champion the interests of the nuclear industry in Dungeness and, most importantly, his constituents who work there. It was interesting to hear that there are still 1,000 people working in nuclear in the area, given that Dungeness B ceased producing power in 2018, I think—nearly five years ago. Dungeness has a proud place in the UK’s nuclear history, with two nuclear power stations. As my hon.”
“We are very much open to that conversation in the light of the changed siting requirements, and for the reasons we have discussed. In conclusion, the Government are putting in place a wide range of measures to help achieve our nuclear ambitions and support the transition to net zero. We look forward to continuing to engage with all interested parties, including from the Dungeness community, as we develop the new policy framework for the siting of new nuclear projects. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe for securing this important debate and making a strong and early case—with the impeccable timing I expect from him—ahead of new siting policy and development. I look forward to continuing to engage with him on this important matter, and to meeting him and his local representatives in due course.”
“My hon. Friend is right. If I have understood it correctly, previously this was very much predicated on modern gigawatt scale reactors only. That will not be the case now. Precisely how that will be done will be laid out in due course, but the brief will precisely be to look across the piece. That is what we need to do if we are to move to 24 GW. Under current Government policy, we are looking at a mix of gigawatt and, if the technology develops as we expect it to, SMRs; the siting will therefore need to reflect those realities. Any nuclear project will continue to be subject to proper examination and development consent through the national planning policy framework. We welcome conversations with any stakeholders who are considering whether their assets might be suitable for the deployment of nuclear facilities.”
“The Government will work with consumer groups and industry to consider the best approach, including options such as social tariffs, as part of wider retail market reforms.”
“The Secretary of State has written to Ofgem, asking it to do more to ensure that suppliers protect vulnerable consumers, including by revisiting its approach to the enforcement of supplier compliance and through the urgent publication of the outcomes of recent investigations into vulnerable customers. I will meet energy suppliers, Ofgem, Energy UK and Citizens Advice later this week to discuss these matters further. Those actions come on top of the Government’s unprecedented cost of living support, including the £400 discount under the energy bills support scheme and the energy price guarantee, which will save a typical household—on top of that £400—£900 this winter, with equivalent support in Northern Ireland. Finally, we are considering a new approach to consumer protection.”
“There are reports that the courts are handling batches of applications for warrants, so the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy is working with Ofgem and the Ministry of Justice—I am pleased to have beside me the courts Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Finchley and Golders Green (Mike Freer)—to ensure that the process by which suppliers bring such cases to court is fair and transparent and supports vulnerable customers. The Government have urged suppliers to take action to increase the number of vouchers being redeemed under the Government’s energy bills support scheme. We have published a list of supplier redemption rates, showing who is best meeting their responsibilities and those who need to do more.”
“The Government recognise the importance of protecting customers, including those on a prepayment meter. That is why this weekend, the Secretary of State set out a five-point plan on prepayment meters. He wrote to energy suppliers to call on them to take every step to support consumers in difficulty. The Government want much greater effort from suppliers to help consumers in payment difficulty, including offers of additional credit, debt forgiveness and tools such as debt advice. Suppliers have been asked to commit to stop moving households to a prepayment meter wherever possible, and to reveal the number of warrants they have applied for in recent months, as part of a drive to increase transparency around prepayment meter installations.”
“That is why we are going to look at social tariffs and why we want to look at whether those costs should be socialised. This is a long-standing situation that we are seeking to address. The whole energy supply system is under stress right now because of the energy crisis, and it is right that we make moves sensibly, without perverse outcomes, to ensure that we protect the most vulnerable. On the question of not forcibly cutting people off, I am always open to looking at these issues, but of course a lot of people will manage the way they use heat and electricity, and it is somewhat different from water. We want to ensure that we get the balance right by protecting the most vulnerable and making sure that we have a system that builds on the unprecedented protection for consumers that we brought in this winter.”
“For many consumers, prepayment meters are a useful tool to allow them to manage their credit and ensure they do not get drawn into the court system in that way. [ Interruption. ] If the right hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner) were to stop chuntering even for a moment, she would hear my response to the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband), who asked me about the penalty, as he put it, of higher costs. The standing charge is a fixed charge that covers the cost of live supply, and it is controlled by Ofgem. The system, which I think was in place when the right hon. Gentleman was a Minister, is that the cost should reflect the actual cost of providing the service. Ofgem manages that, but I agree with him that this is something we should look at.”
“We have today already seen a response from suppliers to the Government’s calls. We must look to be as effective as possible in effecting change now, and we believe that the Government’s calls on and engagement with suppliers, alongside that of Ofgem, is the right approach. Suppliers must exhaust—as they are required to do—all other alternatives before forcing the installation of a prepayment meter. We, too, were once in opposition, so I understand the desire to come up with superficially popular policies, but we do not want to create a system where, in fact, more people are forced into debt, end up with bailiffs and are drawn into the court system. That is exactly what we wish to avoid.”
“My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and that is one of the reasons we have published the list today. Transparency is the best form of disinfectant. We expect the suppliers’ chief executive officers to have conversations with their teams and to ask, “Why are we at the bottom of this list?”. We want competition between suppliers, but all of us have a role to play. It is up to the whole of society to ensure that people are aware of the vouchers. People in the greatest difficulty might be the least likely to open the envelope, for example, so we have looked at the design of the envelopes and at every front. We want to get the message out there to people on prepayment meters that the vouchers are there and that they are entitled to support. Like my hon. Friend, I would like to see the take-up increase.”
“I thank the hon. Lady for her question. Of course, before the suppliers get to that stage, they are required by Ofgem to ensure that it is absolutely the last resort. That is before they get to the court stage. As I said in my opening statement, we are working closely with the Ministry of Justice to ensure that the court process, as part of the overall system, is fit for purpose and provides the maximum protection possible.”
“My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We have to make sure that all suppliers are fulfilling the requirements set by Ofgem. Ofgem’s inquiry into the treatment of vulnerable customers by energy suppliers found weaknesses across the board, and it is engaging with suppliers on compliance. The Secretary of State wrote to Ofgem again in the last few days to reiterate the importance of ensuring that that compliance work has real teeth and that suppliers fulfil their obligations to protect these people.”
“I thank the hon. Lady for her question. As I have said, we are looking at the treatment of vulnerable customers overall, including on the issue she raises through her Bill.”
“Suppliers are required to provide emergency and friendly hours credit to all prepayment meter customers, and where a supplier identifies that a customer in a vulnerable situation has self-disconnected or is self-disconnecting, it must offer them additional support credit where it is in the customer’s best interest to do so. Ofgem warned suppliers way back in June 2018 that PPMs should only be installed as a last resort for debt collection and banned forcible installations for vulnerable consumers in 2017. We are watching to ensure that we have the right steps in place and will take further steps if required to make sure that suppliers live up to their obligations.”
“Heat and light, not least as driven by the current energy prices, constitute a significant cost to families and to the nation. We have to work with the system to provide additional credit and support for people, but, having had 30 suppliers close business, with high costs imposed on the system and thus on consumers, we must get the balance right, so that we have a system that encourages people to pay their bills but also protects those who most need help.”
“My hon. Friend is right, as ever, and that is an important part of the message we are sending out today. I think this urgent question helps to strengthen that message to suppliers and others to ensure that people who are in a vulnerable position are supported to the greatest extent possible.”
“My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The system that we inherited and that exists today reflects the cost of supply, and Ofgem supervises that to ensure it is the case. Alongside him and others across the House, I would be interested in looking at that again to make sure we get a system with the right balance.”
“I thank the hon. Lady for her question. Switching any customer from smart credit to smart prepayment can take place only after an energy supplier has gone through a prescribed process, in the same way as if they were going to fit a prepayment meter to replace a traditional credit meter. The energy regulator, Ofgem, has rules in place that restrict the forced fitting of a prepayment meter or the switching of smart meters to prepayment mode for those in arrears except as a last resort.”
“I agree with my hon. Friend and it is important to make sure that people do not find themselves caught in a cul-de-sac. He asked about the Government laying out the rationale for higher costs. I believe I have said this on two occasions, so I hope I have at least set out the rationale, whether or not people agree with it. The one that we inherited and that subsists today is that this is cost-reflective. Ofgem, the regulator, supervises this and ensures that no charges are imposed that do not reflect the additional costs of providing energy through that particular methodology. Whether we should change that is a separate matter, but I hope I have at least been clear in explaining the rationale that we inherited from the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) and others previously.”