Pat McFadden
MP for Wolverhampton South East · Labour · United Kingdom
“In his review Alan Milburn considered that issue and said that, “the UK’s NEET crisis is much more long-term and deep-seated than any decisions taken in the last few years.” As I said earlier, 400,000 more people are in work this year than last year, and the number of young people in employment is up since the election.”
“Since our last DWP questions, both Alan Milburn and the Pensions Commission have published their respective interim reports on young people and on the current state of saving for retirement. I look forward to receiving their final reports later in the year.”
“As Alan Milburn pointed out in his recent report, the UK’s NEET crisis is much more long-term and deep-seated than any decisions taken in the last few years. There are 400,000 more people in work than last year. The number of young people in employment is up by 74,000 since the election.”
“I thank the right hon. Gentleman and send him commiserations for whatever has left him reliant on his crutches today. I am happy to congratulate the businesses he mentioned in his constituency. He raises a serious point: it is important not only to come up with the right policy, but to make it simple for businesses to use.”
“My hon. Friend is right, and I thank Cardiff football club for being a partner. We are supporting nearly 1 million young people and creating up to half a million opportunities for jobs and training.”
“We are making strong progress on expanding youth hubs, with around 130 already in operation across Great Britain. In March, I announced the locations that we want to open in this year, and I have just announced a further 180 locations for the following two years.”
The complete record
Every one of 5,181 lines we hold for Pat McFadden, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 79 of 104.
“The Post Office has welcomed that, because it has its own product. I shall draw my arguments to a close. It has been put to us that there are challenges, but that with a slight increase in profits recently, Royal Mail is doing okay and there is no need for change. However, it is important to make it clear that the profits are tiny compared with the challenges that the company faces.”
“Royal Mail has told the Government that volumes are continuing to fall—even faster than in the past two years—and that that will have an adverse impact on future revenues and profits. Without further action, the position will be compounded by any steps that the trustees might need to take to tackle the pension deficit, which could double when it is revalued.”
“I am afraid that I must keep going. Much of the profit last year came from the European parcels business, and indeed the Post Office’s share of the profit came from the Government’s subsidy. The letters business is making a very small profit, against a turnover of some £7 billion, and when the chief executive of Royal Mail Group announced those results recently, he said: “We must step up the pace at which we are transforming Royal Mail otherwise, as the recent Hooper report made clear, we face decline”. Hooper suggested that there would be a small profit this year, but that the company would have a significant negative cash flow every year for the next four years.”
“I certainly assure my hon. Friend that we will not accept the Conservative motion, though my invitation to the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe stands.”
“Instead, we have set out a plan, which says no to the privatisation of Royal Mail; yes to keeping it as a publicly owned company; yes to pension security; and yes to a new system of regulation with the USO at its heart. Any legislation to implement those proposals will be fully and properly debated by the House. On that basis, I ask my colleagues to reject the Opposition motion and support the Government amendment.”
“It will be faced either with increasing prices, thereby worsening e-substitution, or a decline in the quality of service, possibly with the same result, and threatening the universal service obligation, which we are trying to protect. Of course, it would be nice if we could make the issue go away, but that would not present a solution to Royal Mail’s problems. There has been a pattern in the past of settling rather than resolving difficult issues. That is why it is important to have a coherent package for the problems that Royal Mail faces, and that is what we have set out. We will not fall for the less-than-canny motion from the Opposition, which is silent about many of the company’s challenges.”
“The debate rightly concentrates on the merit of Hooper’s proposals, but let me make one thing clear: if we do not act, the pension trustees, in the face of the new valuation, could ask for changes such as vastly increased company contributions to recover the deficit, thus placing further strain on Royal Mail, or vastly increased amounts of money from the Government for the escrow account, which acts as insurance and security for the pension fund. The Government cannot simply sign such a cheque without knowing that Royal Mail is on a more sustainable track for the future. Unless modernisation happens, the company will be ill equipped to deal with its challenges.”
“I am sorry, but I must end my remarks shortly. Let me tackle stamp prices. It has been suggested that another solution to the company’s problems could be to increase stamp prices sharply. The price of a stamp will go up by 3p in April, and it increased by 2p last year. We must remember that customers have a choice nowadays, and steep price increases are likely to accelerate the decline in the volume of mail. Such steep increases do not, therefore, offer an easy answer to the challenges that Royal Mail faces. Royal Mail must take modernisation further and faster than it has done. It must diversify its operations against a background of volumes of mail falling between 5 and 8 per cent. each year. To achieve that, it will need investment over and above what it has been allocated.”
“I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman is setting out his party’s policy on the company structure, but does he accept that about 30 per cent. of post offices’ income comes from their contract with Royal Mail? Has he considered that when setting out his proposed structure?”
“The Post Office already has a partnership with the Bank of Ireland, which I think the hon. Gentleman will find is a private sector organisation.”
“The Government support the rights of labour mobility that go with European Union membership. We supported the European Commission’s proposals to ask its group of experts to examine the operation of the posted workers directive and to ask social partners at European level to discuss the implications of recent European Court judgments. The posted workers directive operates throughout the EU and the recent report from the European Commission showed that there were 47,000 UK posted workers in the rest of the EU—three times more than the 15,000 posted workers from the rest of the EU working here in the UK.”
“I understand what my hon. Friend says, but I am not sure that the recent court judgments are relevant to the unofficial strike action over the past weeks. Those judgments are essentially about pay and about the capacity of trade unions to take industrial action in support of collective agreements. We have been told that all subcontractors on the site at the Lindsey oil refinery are required to pay according to the industry agreed rates. ACAS will test the veracity of that claim, but that is what we have been told, so whatever this week’s dispute was about, it does not seem, on the face of it, to have been about a race to the bottom in terms of pay.”
“I do not accept the right hon. Gentleman’s premise. Everyone in the House wants to see British workers having jobs, and we want them to have the skills and training necessary for that. However, we do not want to forsake a relationship whereby half our exports go to the rest of the EU, half of our inward investment comes from the rest of the EU, and 3 million to 3.5 million—one in 10—of the jobs in this country are in some way associated with trade with the rest of the EU. It is not inconsistent to support that and also to support skills and training for British workers for the jobs and industries of the future.”
“My hon. Friend raises an important question, and I know that she has been very close to this issue and taken time to establish the facts. The question that she poses is a good one. If the issue was not about pay, what, in the competition for the contracts, may sometimes mean that UK firms lose out? That does not mean that every time a non-UK firm wins a contract some rule has been broken or we need a change in the law. There could be other reasons. My hon. Friend has asked an important and pertinent question.”
“I believe in fair and free movement, and the Government have introduced many important employment rights for UK workers in the past decade. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will agree that it was a step forward for the employers in this situation to agree on guidance, which states: “Always consider whether there are competent workers available locally. If there are, it is good practice for the non-UK contractor to explore and consider the local skills availability and to consider any applications that may be forthcoming.” Two important things were required to end the dispute. One was that there should be a fair chance for UK workers. The other was that no Italian worker who was here legally should have to be sent home; I am glad that that too was supported by the trade unions in this situation.”
“I do not believe that agency workers were a factor in the Lindsey dispute. My understanding is that in that particular part of the construction industry the workers are directly employed by the subcontractors on the site. I have also been told that the subcontractors all have to pay the agreed rates. However, I agree with my hon. Friend that it was right to reach an agreement on the agency workers directive which suited the UK labour market. We did that on the basis of an agreement between the TUC and the CBI which was then reflected in the text of the agreed directive. The Government will bring forward a consultation on the implementation of the directive here in the UK.”
“I am not aware of the individual circumstances of that case, but I am happy to ask the relevant Department to look into the issues that the hon. Lady has raised.”
“I believe—or at least, I have been informed—that the agreed collective bargaining rate applies in this case, and that therefore pay was not an issue in this dispute. As for the European Commission’s proposal to examine the operation of the posted workers directive, the UK Government supported that when it was discussed in December.”
“My Department is focused on helping business through the current economic downturn and ensuring that British business is in the best place possible to take advantage of the upturn, when eventually it comes.”
“I am happy to ask HMRC to consider the case that the hon. Gentleman raises. As the Chancellor announced in the pre-Budget report, businesses have the capacity to ask for more time to pay tax during the current period, and some 30,000 businesses have taken advantage of that capacity in recent months. Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs is aware of the problem and understands the difficulties of business in the current period.”
“The process for people expressing an interest in Royal Mail is open and we have not reached any conclusion so far on the prospective partner. We believe that it is in the interests of Royal Mail to partner with an experienced network or postal partner that has gone through the experience of change in a network operation of the sort that Royal Mail runs.”
“We fully understand the depth of the current crisis, which is why we have been active, first on recapitalising the banks and then on taking a greater share of risk in lending. The whole world is going through the downturn and Governments have to act to try to restore confidence and lending. That is precisely what we are doing. I have to contrast our actions with the Conservative party’s approach. In the words of Professor Paul Krugman, the Nobel prize winner: “It’s pure Herbert Hoover… In fact, it reminds me of Andrew Mellon”— Hoover’s Secretary of the Treasury, “who said the” Government “response to the Depression should be to ‘liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, and liquidate farmers’.” That is what the Nobel prize-winning economist thinks of the Conservative party’s approach. Ours is much more in tune with the task in hand.”
“I understand the question that my hon. Friend raises. Given the economic circumstances, banks must realise that there are huge public sensitivities about the issue. The public expect restraint. They also expect that if any bonuses are to be paid, they should be paid on the basis of achievement, not past failures.”
“I am sure that my noble Friend Lord Carter will listen carefully to my hon. Friend, who raises an important point in general. As we go through this downturn, we must also look to the industries of the future. The communications revolution and good broadband access throughout the country are critical to our country’s economic future. That is why they are such a high priority for the Government.”
“It is through that strong and independent process that we should proceed, not through the continuation of the unofficial industrial action that has been taking place. Our aim is to get through the economic difficulties that we face with Britain continuing as a great trading nation, with our companies able to operate worldwide and our workers equipped for the jobs and industries of the future. I commend this statement to the House.”
“That is why we have been taking the measures that we have to support people through these difficult times. We strongly believe in fair opportunities for everyone in this country and in ensuring that British people have access to advertised job vacancies. It would be quite wrong, and indeed against the law, for companies to advertise vacancies and exclude British people from them. Equally, it would run contrary to the principles of the single market and harm British people working abroad if we were to exclude foreign workers from employment in the UK. Of course, we understand the concerns of workers at a time of economic difficulty, and we have now established a mechanism through the ACAS process to examine those concerns.”
“Membership of the European Union and taking advantage of the opportunities for trade presented by the EU are firmly in the UK’s national interest. Free movement of labour and the ability to work across the EU have been a condition of membership for decades. It is important that we respect and guarantee that principle, not least because it guarantees the right of hundreds of thousands of British workers and companies to operate elsewhere in Europe. It illustrates the importance of Europe to the UK that half our £370 billion of exports per year go to the EU, half our £315 billion inward investment comes from the EU and between 3 million and 3.5 million UK jobs are linked both directly and indirectly with our trade with the EU. At a difficult economic time, we fully understand the anxieties that people have about their jobs.”
“Of course, if an overseas company wins a contract it can use its permanent employees to carry out the work, but Total has confirmed that where new vacancies are advertised, it will work with subcontractors to ensure that UK workers are considered in the same way as anyone else. The workers coming here from Italy and Portugal are protected by the EU posting of workers directive, which the UK has implemented fully. It guarantees those workers minimum standards, for example on pay and health and safety, and facilitates the free movement of services within the European Union—a vital market for British companies. In the case of the Lindsey refinery, we have been informed that all subcontractors adhere to the national agreement for the engineering construction industry, which governs terms and conditions, working hours and pay.”
“The first is that the use of labour from overseas leads to an erosion of wages and conditions for all concerned because these workers are paid less than UK workers. The second is that there is discrimination in recruitment practice against British workers. The statement issued by Total last night confirmed that workers from overseas are paid at the same rate as other workers on site, and it further confirmed that Total does not operate any policy of discrimination with regard to tendering or recruitment. The same rules apply here as with UK companies bidding for work overseas, and I would remind the House that there are some 300,000 UK companies operating elsewhere in Europe. Subcontracts can be bid for by UK or overseas-based companies.”
“We are determined to see robust enforcement of the employment rights legislated for by this Parliament, and the fair and proper application of the European rules that govern the operation of companies throughout the EU and the mobility of labour, which has always been an intrinsic part of membership of the EU and has been supported by successive British Governments. In a statement issued yesterday, the energy company Total, which runs the Lindsey site, said: “It has never been, and never will be, the policy of Total to discriminate against British companies or British workers.” It went on to say that it subcontracts on a fair and non-discriminatory basis and that the wage rates are the same as for equivalent jobs on the site. Two key accusations have been made in recent days.”
“I understand that all the striking workers are from maintenance or enhancement projects on the sites; and as of this afternoon there is no disruption of production at any of the sites where this unofficial industrial action is taking place. On Friday, my Department asked ACAS, the independent arbitration service, to meet the employers and the unions to examine the various accusations being aired and to establish the facts—we expect its report very quickly. ACAS was in touch with the parties over the weekend and I understand that the first meeting is taking place today. ACAS’s first responsibility is to report to us on whether laws have been broken; if they have we will take action.”
“With permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to repeat a statement being made by my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform in the other place about the industrial action at the Lindsey refinery and elsewhere in the country. On Thursday and Friday last week, contract workers at the Lindsey refinery in north Lincolnshire and elsewhere took part in unofficial industrial action. That has been followed today with further such action at Sellafield power station and other sites around the UK. The stated reason for such action is said to be that a contract awarded at the Lindsey site to an Italian contractor, IREM, has resulted in discrimination against British workers through the exclusive employment of Italian and Portuguese workers. On the Lindsey site, the great majority of the workers are British.”
“and learned Gentleman referred, never at any time has the Prime Minister said or implied that he or the Government are opposed to the free rights of British companies to operate throughout the European Union or of European companies to operate here in the UK. What the Prime Minister said, quite rightly, was that, as a country, we needed to do more to equip the British work force for the jobs, skills and industries of the future. That is precisely what we are doing. That is why, while apprenticeships declined when the Conservative party was in power, we will grow apprenticeships to some 0.5 million, and we will stand by our commitment to equip British workers for the future.”
“I should take this opportunity to welcome the right hon. and learned Gentleman back to the Conservative Front Bench. He brings great experience to his role. I always feel that, particularly when we are discussing issues of European competence, he may have more in common with Labour Members than with some Members behind him, but we will see how the debate develops. The right hon. and learned Gentleman asked a couple of specific questions. As I said in the statement, we have fully implemented the posting of workers directive. It has been in place for some years, and as for many such directives, the European Commission has established a group to look at its operation, and we will see if it makes any recommendations. As for the statements of the Prime Minister to which the right hon.”
“I know that my hon. Friend has been closely engaged with this issue in recent weeks, and that she is doing everything she can to help her constituents in a positive and responsible manner. On future employment, I would say two things to her. The first thing we have to do is maintain our investment in infrastructure, and not cut it, as the Conservatives would, and that means continuing with rebuilding our energy and transport infrastructure, and with other important projects of national significance. The other thing that will support employment for her constituents, and those of all hon. and right hon. Members, is for this country to maintain its positive stance as a positive member of the European Union, to continue to look outwards and trade globally, and, in so doing, to increase wealth for the UK and employment in the UK.”
“I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s welcome for the statement and his positive comments on Britain’s role as a member of the European Union. I agree that unofficial industrial action is not the way to resolve the concerns that have been expressed. We have set up a process through ACAS, which will involve the employers and the trade unions, to air the concerns that have been expressed, and as I said, the statement issued last night by the energy company Total addressed some of those concerns. The hon. Gentleman is right about protectionism. If we look at past history and the economic problems of the last century, we can see that a retreat from looking outwards and a retreat from world trade would indeed mean that protectionism became a sure-fire way of turning recession into depression.”
“As I said, the vast majority of workers on the site are British. It is legal for a European company to contract for work and to say that it will use its permanent employees to carry it out. The issue of discrimination arises if new vacancies are advertised, and the statement issued last night by Total, which runs the site, made it clear that if new vacancies are advertised the company will work with all its subcontractors to make sure that UK workers are considered in the same way as anyone else.”
“The issue at the Lindsey oil refinery, of course, involves European workers coming here, as I said, under the rules of labour mobility that have existed for some decades. The right hon. Gentleman asks about non-EU immigration; on that issue, the Home Secretary and my colleagues at the Home Office have set out the new points-based immigration system, which is intended precisely to gear our needs more closely to immigration from outwith the EU. I would also say to the right hon. Gentleman that immigration from outwith the EU has made a tremendous contribution to this country. That is true of my constituency, and I am sure it is true of many others.”
“I am afraid that I disagree with my hon. Friend; that is not what the Secretary of State has said. What he said was that the rules of trade across the EU benefit EU companies and British companies and that we, as a positive member of the EU, gain by that, which is why we do not intend to change those rules of open trade. He was certainly not harking back to comments made at another time about people getting on their bikes. That is not what he said or what he meant; it is a distortion of what he said.”
“Once again, the hon. Gentleman tries to tempt me away from the operation of the EU rules, into a general discussion on immigration policy. I am not sure quite what cap or number he wants, but as I said, this Government have set out a points-based immigration system for non-EU immigration, which is aimed precisely at matching our needs to the flow of immigration from beyond the EU.”
“My right hon. Friend has tremendous experience in these issues and his words should always be listened to seriously. With regard to ACAS talking to Alstom, I am sure that it will talk to all the major employers in this field that it can. With regard to the national agreement, Alstom has informed us that it abides by the agreement, but that is precisely why we asked ACAS to look at the issue. A number of claims have been aired in the past few days, and it is right to get ACAS to take a dispassionate and impartial look at those claims, so that we can establish the facts.”
“As the Prime Minister has said, we need to do more as a country to improve our skills base, but this is not just about the skills of individual workers, but about the companies that apply to do the work, some of which may do so with a permanent work force whom they deploy to do the work. It is not just about the skill of the individual worker, but about the whole package that a company brings when it bids for a contract.”
“I quite agree with my hon. Friend that we should not pander to the extreme right. He refers to history, and that is relevant on two counts. First, in response to an earlier question, a retreat into protectionism would be a mistake for us and for the rest of the world economy if it was repeated in countries elsewhere. He is absolutely right that, since the end of the second world war, the establishment and growth of the European Union has helped to ensure not only peace but far greater prosperity for its citizens, and we should seek to maintain that in the future.”
“I appreciate that for certain hon. Members any positive statement about the European Union can sometimes be difficult to digest. It is very clear that membership has been good for our trade and growth and for the other matters hinted at by my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr. Brown). The labour mobility rules have been part of the EU for decades—they have not been invented in the past year or two. Labour mobility—the freedom to work throughout the EU in different member states—is one of the basic conditions of EU membership. That is worth bearing in mind in the current circumstances.”
“I must take issue slightly with my hon. Friend. What is important is an open and fair bidding process for contractors to win the work. We cannot put ourselves in a position whereby every time a non-British company wins a contract, we say that it is unfair. British companies are operating successfully throughout the rest of Europe and throughout the world. What is important is that the rules are applied fairly and properly. I agree with my hon. Friend about dialogue and interested parties. It was for precisely that reason that, over the weekend, we established the ACAS process to examine some of the claims. Let us see whether the law has been broken. Let us see whether European rules have somehow been contravened. That is what ACAS is doing, and that is why the first meeting was held today.”
“I believe that ACAS is the right body to examine the statement. I believe that it is perfectly capable and perfectly qualified to do so, and that it is respected by both employers and trade unions. That does not mean that we accept every statement made by everyone at face value. It was precisely in order to establish the facts properly that we asked ACAS to look into the issue.”
“I am sure that the workers and trade unions of this country will welcome the hon. Gentleman’s strong support. I believe that he was referring to a series of European Court judgments issued over the past couple of years on pay differences between posted workers and workers employed locally. If the statements that have been made are true and, in the subcontracting cases that have been cited in recent days, the same pay rates apply throughout the site, it would appear that the issue of a race to the bottom in wages does not apply in this instance. As for the judgments themselves, as I have said, a European Commission body is examining the operation of the Posting of Workers Directive, and a social partners dialogue on the judgments is in progress at European level.”
“I certainly agree that the rules of labour mobility, to which I have referred, and the rights to work across the EU have been in place for decades. I also agree, and have said, that workers from the EU and from outwith the EU have made a strong contribution. I understand that in times of economic difficulty there will always be heightened concerns about jobs. If those concerns include an allegation that the law or rules are being broken, we will look at them, and that is precisely what ACAS has been charged with doing. However, we will not turn our back on trying to reach out, trade openly and grow our wealth through our links throughout the world. We will take a positive stance on world trade and UK companies operating abroad, because that benefits our country.”
“Our concern is twofold. First, we want to ensure that the domestic employment laws passed by this Parliament are properly observed and enforced. On that subject, we have put increased resources—for example through minimum wage enforcement—in place in recent years. Secondly, we want to ensure that the European rules that apply both to UK companies operating elsewhere in Europe and to European companies operating here in the UK are properly and fairly applied. In recent days, there have been allegations on both counts that that may not be the case, and that is precisely what we have asked ACAS to look at.”
“My right hon. Friend asks several questions, which I will try to answer. He asks about the national agreements setting standards that are higher than the basic minimum wage. He is right about that. Claims have been made that the subcontractors on the Lindsey site abide by the national agreement, and that is a legitimate issue for ACAS to look at. He mentioned the costs involved and I suggest that employers may not always choose the cheapest tender, and that speed or the overall package that a subcontractor offers may be strong factors. The statement issued last night said that the subcontractors did abide by the national agreement, and ACAS will doubtless examine that claim with the employers and the unions involved.”