Hilary Benn
MP for Leeds South · Labour · United Kingdom
“As the right hon. Gentleman knows, the Irish Government published on 8 June their legislative outline, entitled “The General Scheme of the Legacy of the Troubles Bill 2026”. That is intended to fulfil the commitment that the Irish Government gave in the joint framework to co-operate to the fullest extent possible with the commission.”
“Northern Ireland is a society, as the hon. Gentleman knows better than most, that has been undergoing profound change since the signing of the Good Friday agreement 28 years ago. As the famous lines go, we have a shared history, but not necessarily a shared memory.”
“The right hon. Gentleman raises a really important point, and I am grateful to him for his question. We all have a responsibility—political leaders have a responsibility to call out what was witnessed for what it is and not mince our words, and as I have already indicated, social media companies have a responsibility to ensure that such m…”
“I hope the hon. Lady will recognise that the common travel area, which is more than a century old, is of great benefit to the citizens of the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland. Many people in Northern Ireland live their lives across that border every single day.”
“I do agree with my hon. Friend. The attack on Mr Ogilvie was truly shocking, and there was no justification whatsoever for the racist thuggery we witnessed on the streets of Belfast in the days following.”
“That was, of course, an awful feature of what we saw. One of the things I learned in my discussions was that those from the far right had taken a list of houses in multiple occupation in Belfast—a list that, in the interests of openness, was properly available on the Belfast city council website; the council has now taken it down—and used…”
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“There are other small businesses that are able to trade perfectly— [ Interruption. ] The point that the hon. Gentleman needs to recognise is that if some small businesses manage to move their goods from GB to Northern Ireland, others can do so. In the end, it is a decision for an individual business where it chooses to sell its goods. It is the Windsor framework that applies now, not the Northern Ireland protocol, and I think he will accept that the Windsor framework represents a significant improvement on what was there before.”
“I was interested by that observation in the FSB report because, as the House will testify, I spend a lot of my time extolling the virtues of the dual market access that Northern Ireland has as a result of the Windsor framework. I meet companies as I travel around Northern Ireland who tell me about the benefits of it that they are feeling. I think we all have a responsibility to extol the virtues of dual market access because, in my experience, if businesses can see an opportunity that allows them to sell more products, they will seize it with both hands.”
“I regularly meet the Northern Ireland Finance Minister to discuss funding. The Government will provide Northern Ireland with a record settlement of £19.3 billion per year on average—the largest in the history of devolution—and the Executive will also continue to receive over 24% more per person, in line with their independently assessed level of need.”
“The spending review settlement does indeed reflect the Government’s commitment to providing resources right across the United Kingdom. A year ago, people were saying there was going to be a fiscal cliff edge, but the money being made available for Northern Ireland means that no one is saying that now.”
“My hon. Friend will have noticed the funding made available for local growth. As part of the spending review, discussions on the fiscal framework will be taken forward by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and the Department of Finance, to talk about things like the Holtham review and capital borrowing by the Northern Ireland Housing Executive.”
“The spending review gives the Northern Ireland Executive more funds to disperse as they see fit. It comes alongside the publication of the industrial strategy, the funds that the Government are making available and the £30 million that will come to Northern Ireland through UK Research and Innovation. There is funding available and there is great wealth, talent and potential in Northern Ireland to make the best use of it.”
“The Government make funding available to the Northern Ireland Executive through the block grant. As the hon. Gentleman will know, it is for the Northern Ireland Executive to decide how they distribute the money between all the needs in Northern Ireland, including health, where of course there are significant pressures. The public services transformation funding that the last Government made available is now beginning to be used to reform some of the ways in which the health service works.”
“The Finucane inquiry is beginning its work. It will publish, as is normal, statements of the expenditure that it engages in. It depends how long the inquiry lasts and how much evidence is taken, but the hon. Gentleman can rest assured that he will receive an answer in due course, as that process unfolds.”
“The hon. Gentleman needs to keep up. I answered a parliamentary question yesterday in which I made it clear that we will deal with this issue, which arises because of the application of the Carltona principle in the Supreme Court judgment of 2020, which the last Government could not sort out in two and a half years. We will deal with it in our forthcoming legislation, and I will keep the House updated.”
“This issue arose following the Supreme Court judgment in 2020, which found certain custody orders to be unlawful. The amendment to the legacy Act to try to deal with that has also been found unlawful by the Northern Ireland courts, so the Government are carefully exploring how to lawfully address this complex issue, alongside our commitment to implement legacy mechanisms that are fully compliant with human rights. I will, of course, keep the House updated.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for his service in our armed forces, alongside all those who served. He is absolutely right about the flawed piece of legislation that this Government inherited, and we are working hard to put that right.”
“As I told the House a moment ago, the courts found that clauses 46 and 47 were unlawful. Although the Northern Ireland Court of Appeal was not obviously asked to rule on that, because we had withdrawn the appeal, it did comment unfavourably on those provisions. We supported clauses 46 and 47 at the time, but they have not worked, and that is why we have to find an alternative way forward. I just say to the House that the main issue here is the Carltona principle, which the last Government argued meant it was lawful for junior Ministers to sign ICOs. The amendment to try to deal with that failed, and we need to find another way of reaffirming that principle. That is at the heart of this case.”
“The Supreme Court judgment was in 2020, and the last Government could not find a legal solution in almost three years. I am committed to finding one, and I promise that I will update the House when we have found it.”
“Economic growth is this Government’s priority, and our industrial strategy is central to that. It will be published in June, and will support the Executive’s plans for growth. The latest figures from the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency show that Northern Ireland experienced stronger growth than the United Kingdom as a whole last year.”
“I am sure that my hon. Friend, and the whole House, welcomes the recently announced increase in defence expenditure. Northern Ireland has a strong and significant defence sector, and Spirit is part of that. The Secretary of State for Defence has made it very clear that he wants the increased expenditure to result in more jobs and more orders for British companies.”
“The new Grand Central station is a magnificent piece of infrastructure, and I recommend any Members who have not yet had a chance to visit it to do so. I am not contemplating for one second that there will not be an Executive in place. Perhaps the single most important contribution that the Executive can make to continued economic growth in Northern Ireland is to stay in place and give confidence to those whom we are all working hard to encourage to come and invest in Northern Ireland’s economic future.”
“There is a great deal that the Executive can do to help promote economic growth. I have just given one example, and investing in and supporting the development of skills is another. Northern Ireland has the lowest unemployment in the United Kingdom, but it also has a higher rate of worklessness, and getting more people back into work and giving them the skills that will enable them to take part in the economy will help to boost growth.”
“The agreement on the application of sanitary and phytosanitary measures that was reached with the European Union on Monday is extremely significant. As the hon. Member will know, it has been widely welcomed by businesses throughout Northern Ireland, including supermarkets, retailers and farmers, because of the assistance it will give in getting rid of many of the elements associated with the SPS arrangement. It is the fruition of this Government’s determination, when we came into office, to negotiate a closer relationship with the EU, which is exactly what we have done.”
“On customs, in addition to the SPS deal, the significantly reduced Windsor framework customs arrangements, introduced on 1 May, will of course remain in place, because the UK is not in the EU customs union and we have no intention of joining it. It is clear from the text of the agreement what will be removed and that customs information will remain for SPS goods, but we are working hard to make life easier and introduced changes on 1 May. Reducing the number of lines of information that need to be provided from 75 to 21 is a very good example of how we are working with the EU to make it easier for goods to flow.”
“The veterans who served in Operation Banner did so with distinction in very difficult circumstances, and ultimately helped to bring about the peace that Northern Ireland now enjoys. We owe them a huge debt of gratitude. Together with the Defence Secretary and Minister for Veterans, I am currently considering measures for our legacy legislation to ensure better protections for elderly veterans.”
“I agree with what the former Defence Secretary said in 2019. He said: “The British Army uphold British values, which is the rule of law, and that’s what we stand for.” I advise the right hon. Gentleman to be a little bit careful about using the phrase “politically motivated” prosecutions—I hope I have correctly quoted him. Let us be clear: decisions about any prosecutions, in any cases, are taken by the independent Public Prosecution Service, which is entirely separate from the Executive.”
“We have begun the process of repealing and replacing the legacy Act in the proposed draft remedial order. It will deal with the conditional immunity that was struck down by the courts, and which we came into office committed to remove because it did not command support across Northern Ireland, as it would have given immunity to terrorists, including those who killed the soldiers to whom the right hon. Member for Goole and Pocklington (David Davis) referred earlier. I intend to bring forward legislation to complete that process when parliamentary time allows, because this Government inherited a completely hopeless piece of legislation, which has been found time and again to be incompatible with our international obligations.”
“I will inform the House of proposals in due course. I am in discussions with the Irish Government, and that is well known publicly. The reason the legacy Act resulted in so much trouble and difficulty, and produced so much incompatibility with our international obligations, is that the last Government, having negotiated the Stormont House agreement with the parties and the Irish Government, decided to perform a 180° turn and put in legislation that did not command support in Northern Ireland. I want to make progress on this as quickly as possible, and I am continuing to talk to all the parties about doing so.”
“The Good Friday agreement has brought peace, security and a better life to the people of Northern Ireland. It remains an unparalleled achievement almost 30 years on from its signing, and I pay tribute to all those involved in its creation for their political courage, bravery and willingness to compromise.”
“I share with the hon. Member and the whole House a wish to see lasting peace in the middle east, and what is happening at the moment is appalling and intolerable. However, I think the most important lesson from the Good Friday agreement was the courageous political leadership shown by the parties to the conflict—people such as John Hume and David Trimble—and I have to say that, tragically, that same courageous political leadership is absent in the middle east.”
“The trade deal with the USA, together with the agreements with the EU and India, are very significant. Northern Ireland exporters, including those exporting services, technology and farming goods, will benefit in the same way as those in other parts of the UK. In particular, the US deal is a major opportunity for Northern Ireland farmers to sell their high-quality beef to a US market of over 300 million people.”
“The hon. Gentleman is right to point out that EU retaliatory tariffs directed at the USA would have an impact in Northern Ireland, because of its dual-market access. I can write to him with further details of how precisely that would work. It depends partly on whether there is less or more than a 3% difference between the tariff in the EU and the tariff that applies in the UK.”
“The Union between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, which we will discuss next month at the East-West Council, remains strong. The deal with the EU will enable the smooth flow of agrifood and plants within the UK’s internal market. That is why it has been overwhelmingly welcomed by businesses.”
“The Government and I support the Union, and I also support the Good Friday agreement. I point out to the hon. and learned Gentleman that when it comes to customs arrangements, there are no mandatory checks. There are checks that apply generally on the basis of risk and intelligence.”
“The Government have begun the process of repealing and replacing the previous Government’s legacy Act. The draft remedial order in Parliament represents the first step. The Government will address the other issues arising from several court findings of incompatibility in primary legislation.”
“I listen carefully to all the representations that are made to me, including in that report, which I have read. I am committed to introducing legislation as soon as possible, although that is subject to the availability of parliamentary time. This Government came into office absolutely committed to remedying the absolute failure of the Legacy Act passed by the previous Government.”
“It is a great pleasure to respond to this debate and to serve under your chairship, Ms Lewell. I begin by offering my thanks— Sitting suspended for Divisions in the House.”
“The unique difference in respect of Northern Ireland is that there is no practical border between Northern Ireland and the Republic. Therefore, the question that the previous Government had to address when negotiating the Windsor framework was: as a good neighbour, how do we ensure that goods that move into the Republic—and therefore into the European Union—comply with the rules of that jurisdiction, in exactly the same way that the United Kingdom ensures that goods that come into our jurisdiction comply with our rules? That is the first point. The Windsor framework is a huge improvement on the Northern Ireland protocol, which, as I have said many times, was never going to work.”
“The Government recognise, and I recognise, that the new arrangements represent a change for some businesses when sending and receiving goods, but I must be frank: the system in place since the UK formally left the EU was never viable in the long term. My point goes right back to the reason why we have a Windsor framework, which the hon. and learned Gentleman and I have debated many times: when we left the European Union, there was an issue that needed to be addressed. The United Kingdom had one set of rules, and the European Union had another. In every other part of the world, trade between those two entities would be governed by a border, and stuff would be checked to ensure that what was coming in complied with the rules of one jurisdiction or the other.”
“Let me start again. It is a pleasure to respond to this debate. I offer my thanks to the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim (Jim Allister) for having secured it, giving us another opportunity to debate the Windsor framework. As Members will be aware, the new arrangements for freight and parcels come into effect tomorrow, 1 May. They are an important step forward in the implementation of the Windsor framework, and an important part of the commitments that were made in the “Safeguarding the Union” Command Paper. They follow a lot of preparatory work across Government and industry to ensure that the necessary processes and systems are in place.”
“Unnecessary customs paperwork will be removed, and goods will be able to move using a simplified set of what is described as internal market movement information. For example, from tomorrow, the arrangement will reduce the standard range of data fields that need to be completed from a possible 75 to 21 for standard goods. That is, on anyone’s measure, a simplification.”
“In the same way, because once the goods arrive in Northern Ireland, potentially they could move into the European Union, the EU wants to be satisfied in the same way in seeking these new arrangements. That is the fundamental point of principle. What we have is much better than what would have applied had there been an attempt to implement the original Northern Ireland protocol. That is why, when I was in opposition, and before I became the shadow Secretary of State, I welcomed the negotiations of the Windsor framework. I congratulated the then Prime Minister, because it represented a really important way forward. My second point is that by agreeing to the new parcels arrangement, we have unlocked agreement on new customs arrangements that will simplify processes for businesses moving goods via freight.”
“I simply do not accept that characterisation of what we are debating and what I am seeking to describe. To return to the point that I was in the process of putting to Members, a very practical question had to be addressed. Some may argue, “Well, that’s not our problem. Leave the EU to work out what they’re going to do.” However, that would not be the response of a good neighbour. We would not do it ourselves, and therefore we should not do that to the EU. The Windsor framework recognises the nature of the practical problem and finds a mechanism for dealing with it. The same is true in respect of parcels, because the United Kingdom would not allow parcels from any other part of the world to come in without knowing what was in them. We would not permit that, would we? Certainly not. That is not the arrangement that we operate.”
“and learned Gentleman did not touch on that, but I wish to refer to it—no customs declarations, safety or security declarations or customs duties are required for movements from Great Britain to consumers in Northern Ireland under the new arrangement. The practical effect is that there should be no noticeable change for people sending parcels to friends and family in Northern Ireland, and minimal noticeable change for most consumers sending and receiving parcels that move from Great Britain to Northern Ireland. Where parcels are moved between businesses, they can access the same arrangements as freight movements.”
“Over 10,000 UK businesses are now registered for the UK internal market scheme, which allows businesses to take advantage of the new arrangements. The existing “not at risk” arrangements will continue to allow tariff-free movement of eligible goods from GB to NI. The hon. and learned Member for North Antrim referred to the flow of goods. I would simply say that the data shows that the value of goods moving from GB to Northern Ireland has gone up, not down. Qualifying Northern Ireland goods continue to have full, unfettered access to Great Britain when they are sent in parcels or freight, meaning that those parcels can be moved as normal with no new requirements. For parcels sent to consumers—the hon.”
“I am not seeking to play down anything. If the right hon. Gentleman would be kind enough to write to me with further details of the business that he described, I will look into it and come back to him. I was about to say that this change will be further supported by the introduction of the trader goods profile, which holds data based on past movements. That goes directly to the point that the right hon. Gentleman just raised about obligations that the arrangement puts on businesses because, in many cases, that dataset can, in the jargon, auto-populate forms for freight movement. In other words, it can fill in forms automatically so that businesses only have to add ordinary commercial information, such as the volume, weight and invoice value.”
“I was about to say that the specific arrangements for moving parcels that contain sanitary and phytosanitary goods have not changed. Businesses can make use of the Windsor framework schemes for moving agrifood goods, and the Northern Ireland retail movement scheme and the Northern Ireland plant health label scheme allow GB businesses to send SPS parcels to businesses in Northern Ireland for sale to consumers. That represents a considerable improvement. Guidance and support are available to help businesses understand the schemes. I recognise that the transition to the new arrangements from tomorrow will be challenging for some businesses, but in time they will get used to them. We are in touch with industry to understand where businesses need extra support and assistance. His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs has been alerting businesses—”
“I am not ignoring the general product safety regulation. This is a debate about parcels. I am well aware of the issues that arise because of its implementation. There is no bar on traders and businesses sending products to Northern Ireland, or indeed to the European Union. The European Union has put in place that requirement to apply to goods that come into its jurisdiction, for the same reason that I gave at the start of my response to this debate: there has to be a mechanism for ensuring that goods that come in comply with the rules of the EU single market. Many businesses have found a way of having an authorised economic operator. I understand the burden that that puts on particularly small operators, but it is another aspect of the need to ensure that we are good neighbours.”
“These schemes work in our national interest, and His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs is continuing to talk to and support any businesses that might be affected, to help them understand how to use the duty reimbursement and customs duty waiver schemes. The Minister for the Cabinet Office has talked about all this with EU counterparts in recent days, because the Government are fully aware of how sensitive this issue is for businesses in Northern Ireland. What we need in these circumstances is a calm and considered response, and that is what the Government will continue to provide.”
“We are, of course, preparing for the EU’s next move and any possible retaliatory tariffs that it may or may not introduce, as well as considering the impact that new EU tariffs would have on Northern Ireland businesses importing from the United States of America, because under the Windsor framework, the EU tariff would apply. As hon. Members will know, however, because of the Windsor framework, businesses can reclaim any such tariff through the existing duty reimbursement scheme in cases where US imports into Northern Ireland do not then enter the European Union. The customs duty waiver scheme also allows duties to be waived entirely, subject to an overall limit.”
“I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question. As the Prime Minister has said, tariffs are not good news for anyone and no one wants a trade war. The Government are doing everything possible to keep Britain secure during this new era of global instability, and we will always act in the best interests of businesses in Northern Ireland. As part of our customs territory and internal market, Northern Ireland exporters are facing a general 10% US tariff and a 25% tariff on steel, aluminium and cars, like other exporters across the United Kingdom. Northern Ireland is not therefore uniquely disadvantaged.”
“I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his questions. I am slightly surprised by his initial comment, because of course we touched on this matter in Northern Ireland oral questions—”
“That impacts upon his third question. We are going to have to take this a stage at a time. The Prime Minister has made it quite clear that he will do what is in the national interest to protect our businesses, our companies and our economic future, but it is precisely because of the Windsor framework that the duty reimbursement scheme exists.”
“Indeed, but we touched on this matter in Northern Ireland orals last week, and the Business Secretary made a statement to the House last week. To answer the hon. Gentleman’s questions, of course the Government have been preparing for and looking at all eventualities, but until we know what the EU retaliatory tariffs are, it does not make much sense to publish speculation about their potential impact. On the duty reimbursement scheme, I have met HMRC officials, because I agree with the hon. Gentleman that it is important that the scheme works effectively, depending on the number of Northern Ireland businesses that are affected, to reimburse tariffs. I would just say, however, that Northern Ireland imports about £800 million-worth of goods from the United States of America, which is about 2% of Northern Ireland’s total purchases.”
“As I indicated in answer to the Opposition spokesperson, of course the Government have been preparing for all eventualities, but as I also indicated, there is no point in publishing something that is not based on the actual tariffs that the EU decides to impose. Therefore, it is sensible to wait until that moment arrives. Secondly, the EU will take such action as it determines to be in its interests in response to the 20% tariffs that the United States of America has imposed on the EU in addition to the tariffs on steel, aluminium and cars. Let us not forget that the Windsor framework gives Northern Ireland businesses unique access to the European market, which is not something that is enjoyed by businesses in Great Britain.”