Hilary Benn
MP for Leeds South · Labour · United Kingdom
“As the right hon. Gentleman knows, the Irish Government published on 8 June their legislative outline, entitled “The General Scheme of the Legacy of the Troubles Bill 2026”. That is intended to fulfil the commitment that the Irish Government gave in the joint framework to co-operate to the fullest extent possible with the commission.”
“Northern Ireland is a society, as the hon. Gentleman knows better than most, that has been undergoing profound change since the signing of the Good Friday agreement 28 years ago. As the famous lines go, we have a shared history, but not necessarily a shared memory.”
“The right hon. Gentleman raises a really important point, and I am grateful to him for his question. We all have a responsibility—political leaders have a responsibility to call out what was witnessed for what it is and not mince our words, and as I have already indicated, social media companies have a responsibility to ensure that such m…”
“I hope the hon. Lady will recognise that the common travel area, which is more than a century old, is of great benefit to the citizens of the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland. Many people in Northern Ireland live their lives across that border every single day.”
“I do agree with my hon. Friend. The attack on Mr Ogilvie was truly shocking, and there was no justification whatsoever for the racist thuggery we witnessed on the streets of Belfast in the days following.”
“That was, of course, an awful feature of what we saw. One of the things I learned in my discussions was that those from the far right had taken a list of houses in multiple occupation in Belfast—a list that, in the interests of openness, was properly available on the Belfast city council website; the council has now taken it down—and used…”
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“From 1 October, businesses in Great Britain will be able to move prepacked retail goods as well as certain other goods, including fruit and vegetables, through the green lane to Northern Ireland under the Northern Ireland retail movement scheme. These requirements will come in in three phases. As I understand it, in phase 1, the “Not for EU” label that we have started to see will be required on all prepacked meat products, meat packed on sales premises and some dairy products. I understand that compound products such as chicken kiev are included in phase 1, but composite products such as pepperoni pizza are not. I am a vegetarian, but I thought it was important to raise that point.”
“Can the Minister give an assurance that no goods that qualify for the green lane will be subject to red lane inspection even though they are in the back of the same truck with red lane goods? To what extent will the red and green lanes apply to the products that he referred to? The explanatory memorandum makes it clear that agrifoods moving from Great Britain to Northern Ireland under the Northern Ireland retail movement scheme, which I welcome, will be able to meet relevant GB public health and consumer protection standards. Can the Minister therefore confirm for the record, because I understand this to be the case, that cakes and ice cream containing the food whitener titanium dioxide, which is banned in the European Union but not in the UK, can continue to be moved from Great Britain to Northern Ireland and sold to consumers there?”
“Next, the Minister will be aware that many of those who submitted evidence to the recent House of Lords European Affairs Committee inquiry, which produced an excellent report that I commend to all Members, argued that the implementation of these new arrangements, while a great improvement on the full application of the Northern Ireland protocol, will still represent an increase in checks and paperwork compared with the grace periods. Does the Minister accept that? Let us take an example. There is a particular issue for hauliers who carry mixed loads—I think it is referred to as groupage—some of which is for the red lane and some of which is for the green lane but all of which is in the back of the same truck. In practical terms, how will the situation be managed to ensure the right enforcement for the right lane?”
“About halfway down, it says: “The SPS Regulation will also be applicable in NI, but under Article 1(2) and Annex 1 of that regulation, the standards in directly applicable EU law are disapplied in relation to retail goods under the Scheme.” So far, so good. It goes on: “This means that the relevant NI legislation does not apply to retail goods under the Scheme.” But the very next sentence says: “This SI applies the NI legislation to goods under the Scheme.” Maybe I have misread the paragraph or missed something, but surely the relevant Northern Ireland legislation either does not apply to goods under the scheme or it does. Which of those two is it, or are those two consecutive sentences referring to different types of goods or different circumstances?”
“It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairship, Ms Nokes. I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation of the draft regulations. As he will know, I strongly support the Windsor framework as a way out of the mess that both the Government and the EU had got themselves into. For that reason, we will not oppose the regulations, although I want to raise some questions. I realise that these particular regulations are principally about ensuring that the appropriate authorities have the power to enforce the new arrangements, but, as the Minister will be only too well aware, it is essential that people understand what is expected of them so that they do not fall foul of these enforcement rules. In other words, we need clarity and timely guidance. On that question, may I begin by referring to paragraph 7.4 of the explanatory memorandum?”
“I am grateful for that clarification—I understood that that was the case—but does it not illustrate a point that the right hon. Member for East Antrim made? I would have thought that he would welcome what is in the regulations because under the Northern Ireland protocol—this was why I raised the example—cake and ice cream containing titanium dioxide would not have been able to move from Great Britain to Northern Ireland. It would have been banned because EU regulations applied. Now, because GB standards apply, which are GB-UK standards, it can move. Does that not demonstrate how this position represents an improvement on the mess with which we grappled previously?”
“The Windsor framework, which was agreed seven months ago, was a great achievement, but it was also intended to enable the restoration of power sharing in Northern Ireland. That has not happened. What is the Government’s plan? The Secretary of State refers to the conversations he is having, but what is the plan to get Stormont back up and running?”
“The Secretary of State knows that there are concerns in the Unionist community about unfettered access for Northern Ireland businesses trading with Great Britain. The Government said last month in the border target operating model that they are committed to that access, as we all are, and that: “These arrangements will be enshrined and further strengthened in domestic legislation”. Can he tell the House when that legislation will be introduced?”
“I am sorry to say that the Bill does not do that and it will not achieve the purpose Ministers claim for it. That is why we are committed, as the Opposition, to repeal it, if we get the opportunity.”
“That is the scale of the coalition that the Government have managed to range against themselves, but instead of reflecting on that, their approach has been to put their head down and plough on regardless. That is why, for all the Government’s good intentions, they have failed to win public confidence, even though the Government said in 2018: “In order to build consensus on workable proposals that have widespread support we must listen to the concerns of victims, survivors and other interested parties.” Doing the wrong thing is not a justification for this Bill, and if there is one lesson we must by now have learned about how to make progress in Northern Ireland, it is that it can only be achieved patiently, slowly and carefully, so as to build a consensus.”
“The list of people and organisations opposed to this Bill is frankly astonishing: all of the political parties in Northern Ireland; the Churches in Northern Ireland; victims’ groups; the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission; the former Victims’ Commissioner; the Irish Government; the Council of Europe; and the United Nations. Most extraordinary of all, it is reported that the person who has been appointed as the commissioner-designate, the highly respected Sir Declan Morgan, said recently that he would expect legal action by the families of victims of the troubles to try to challenge the Bill on whether it is compliant with the European convention on human rights.”
“This is the first time I have talked about this, given that I was appointed only on Monday, but I recognise how hard this is and I acknowledge the changes that the Secretary of State has made to the Bill during its passage, including his comment that when he inherited it he was not happy with it. However, he must accept that this legislation does not command the confidence of the people to whom he is trying to offer reassurance and comfort. The most important word in the title of this Bill is “reconciliation”. We all want that to happen, but the Bill has self-evidently not achieved its aim, because all the communities in Northern Ireland are clearly not reconciled to its contents. It is so striking to see the extent to which the Government have failed to win support for their approach.”
“That would be the consequence of taking away from people, as this Bill does, the means of justice, however hard, however long, however uncertain. I acknowledge the point that the Secretary of State made about that. This is the last occasion on which we will debate this highly controversial legislation, which concerns how we come to terms with the terrible legacy of violence and brutality during the troubles in a way that enables those most affected—the families—finally to know what happened to the person they loved and to ensure that justice is done; to hold those responsible to account.”
“So we will vote against the Government’s motion to disagree with the Lords amendments today. The Secretary of State has talked quite a bit about a disincentive to people coming forward, but I say to him that it is not entirely clear that immunity will achieve the purpose that the Government have for it. Given that every other means of justice is to be closed down, and given that the commission appears to have a lifespan of only five years, those who have committed dreadful crimes only need to sit it out. I say to the Secretary of State that if that were to happen and after the five years are over those individuals start to talk about, boast about or write books about what they have done, how will he explain to the families of those they murdered why the Government allowed that situation to arise?”
“Lords amendment 44E is not a veto, but it would allow the families of those who were killed or seriously injured in the troubles to have some voice in the process—I understand that relatives of those who were murdered are with us in the Gallery, and they are still seeking justice. Let me turn to the other provisions, relating to licence conditions that would apply to the person seeking immunity. I acknowledge what the Secretary of State just said about other changes having been made to the Bill, but these provisions seem very sensible and reasonable to me. I include in that the requirement that the individual in question should not approach or otherwise communicate with a victim, in the case of an injury, or with a victim’s family, in the case of a death, unless they consent.”
“May I take this opportunity to welcome my hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Fleur Anderson) to the Front-Bench team, and to express my thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) for all the service she gave during her time as part of the shadow Northern Ireland team? As the House will be aware, we do not support this Bill, but I do not understand why the Secretary of State is seeking to overturn the amendments tabled by Lord Murphy and passed in the other place yesterday. I listened very carefully to the arguments advanced by the Secretary of State, but I do not think they stand up, because the Lords amendments would not take away the commission’s ability to issue immunity to an individual who comes forward and gives truthful evidence about what happened.”
“Finally, the whole House wants to ensure that the staff get the support, protection and reassurance they need, but to succeed in doing that we need leadership from the Government and the political parties in Northern Ireland, to get the Assembly and the Executive up and running again as quickly as possible.”
“They are asking urgently, “What will be done to reassure and protect us?” Does the Secretary of State agree that the inquiry needs to be completed as quickly as possible? Can he confirm that he will approve the appointment of the new chief constable in the absence of a Justice Minister in Northern Ireland? Does he intend to review the operation of the Northern Ireland Policing Board and how it functions? Does he recognise that there will be additional costs in protecting staff, as well as responding to potential civil claims? There were already great pressures on the Northern Ireland policing budget, and the cuts it now faces will, in the words of the PSNI, leave the service “smaller…less visible, less accessible and less responsive”.”
“May I say that I look forward to working with the Secretary of State in the interests of peace, prosperity and progress in Northern Ireland? The release of the names and workplaces of thousands of PSNI officers and staff was doubtless inadvertent, but its consequences could not be more serious. That has now been recognised by the chief constable, Simon Byrne, who is resigning—I join the Secretary of State in thanking him for his service. Those who serve in the PSNI confront great risks every day in their job to keep the public safe, and we thank them. But they already knew that dissident republicans were targeting them and their families, and now they know that those who would do them harm have this list. The damage to morale and confidence should not be underestimated.”
“And it is not clear, to be honest, what the Government’s plan is now to regain trust, including by responding to the continuing concerns expressed by the Unionist community in Northern Ireland to enable the institutions to get up and running again. The Labour party does not oppose the Bill as to do so would cause deeper instability, but, as I think everybody who has contributed so far tonight has said, the best and only way forward is the restoration of Stormont so that local representatives can get to grips with the budget and be accountable to the people who elected them, the people of Northern Ireland, for the decisions they make. Frankly, that day cannot come soon enough.”
“On Second Reading before the recess, the Secretary of State said: “The summer therefore presents an opportunity for the Northern Ireland parties to come together as a restored Executive and take their own budget legislation through the Assembly, making the remaining stages of the Bill in this place superfluous.” —[ Official Report , 10 July 2023; Vol. 736, c. 101.] Now, we would all wish that that had happened but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) pointed out, it is not entirely clear what was done over the summer by the Government to try to bring the Northern Ireland parties together. We know that the Prime Minister was very happy to visit Northern Ireland after the Windsor framework—a great achievement, but it was meant to restore power sharing—but his absence since has been noticeable.”
“If that finds that costs are required to be met to repair or replace those roofs, will that money have to come out of the budget set by the Bill? I understand that the Secretary of State has received advice from civil servants about possible revenue-raising measures. How does he plan to use them? Will they be published? Those and other challenges are the stuff of Government. It is what we are elected to deal with wherever it is that we sit, but that is not happening in Northern Ireland at the moment and it needs to in the interests of its citizens, a point made very clearly by the hon. Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare), who chairs the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee.”
“It is not fair or right to ask civil servants to make decisions which politicians should be making. The political vacuum in Northern Ireland is having serious consequences. The crisis facing the police service is all too evident—we discussed that earlier today in the urgent question—and the Secretary of State heard many references to the financial pressures it is already facing, never mind the costs that may arise from responding to the data breach. But there are concerns about other Departments, too. NHS waiting lists for Northern Ireland are the worst in our country. There are reports that Northern Ireland schools are only now being surveyed for structural weaknesses caused by reinforced concrete.”
“May I begin by expressing my thanks to my predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for Hove (Peter Kyle), who has already been mentioned this evening, for the outstanding contribution he made in this role and to wish him well in his new job? It is clear from the debates during the Bill’s passage that the current situation was not sustainable, hence the need for the Bill. Public services are under strain. Indeed, the Minister has just said that the pressures are acute and I agree with him. It is noticeable that the Bill has been widely perceived as a budget that does not take account of those needs and those pressures. It is clear that we cannot keep setting budgets in this way and that the structural problems in Northern Ireland are getting worse in the absence of an Executive.”
“On the amendment of article 12, which deals with who can vote, the measure will replace “Any person who keeps pigs in England” with “Any person who pays the producer levy related to pigs” I assume that that means that the number of people who will be able to vote is reduced, as there are some people who keep pigs who do not pay the producer levy. Is that correct?”
“I recently met an 18-year-old constituent who is looking after her 17-year- old brother and her 10-year-old sister. They have been separated from their parents for the past two years because, in the scrum of the evacuation, they made it on to the plane and their parents did not. What can I tell her and her siblings about the efforts the Government will be prepared to make to reunite them with their mum and dad?”
“In 1994, Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons in return for guarantees about its security and territorial integrity. Given what has happened since, we all understand why President Zelensky is so keen to join the alliance. Does the Prime Minister agree that when and however the current war ends, NATO membership at that point will need to form the cornerstone of new security guarantees that the people of Ukraine can rely on?”
“On age-appropriate accommodation and family life, could the Minister explain why he felt that the murals on the wall at the Kent intake unit damaged the deterrent effect of which he has just spoken? In that context, if parents are to continue to have family life with their children for the time that they are detained, will there be any chance of them having access to picture books to enable them to read to their children?”
“The Government have said that they are committed to bringing forward safe, legal routes, but that they will not do that until they have stopped the boats. Does the Minister not recognise that one thing that the Government could do that would help stop the boats is bring forward safe, legal routes?”
“I understand entirely that the regulations need to be changed because of the changing shape of the battlefield, as the Minister described it. However, does that mean that if the Russians were to gain further territory, heaven forbid, that went beyond the geographical confines set out in the regulations, we would have to come back and have new regulations to change the geographical coverage? Therefore, have the Government considered just defining this as non-Government controlled Ukrainian territory, which would cover any places that were not held by the Ukrainians at any given time, as the battle goes back and forth?”
“Can the Minister tell us what percentage of the total number of buildings that need remediation will be covered by the 49 businesses that have already signed up to the scheme? I presume the Government have a rough idea.”
“I am grateful for the Minister’s answer and I understand the explanation. Draft regulation 21(2)(a) talks about “fire safety defects”. The explanatory memorandum, however, refers to “life-critical fire safety defects”. Are those one and the same thing? However they are defined, do they extend beyond dangerous cladding to missing firebreaks and flammable insulation?”
“However, if a mortgage lender says, “Without an EWS1, because there are missing firebreaks and flammable insulation in the building, we are not going to lend, and you are not going to be able to sell,” it seems that one of the principal reasons for the Government acting in this way, which I welcome, means that they will not solve the problem facing leaseholders. In the end, their test of whether the building is safe is, “Does anybody else want to buy my flat?” If people will not buy their flat because there is no EWS1 form, because someone else thinks there is still a risk, the distinction between cladding problems and other problems really does not wash.”
“In the end, however, people in some blocks have not been able to sell because no EWS1 form is available, with some lenders are saying, “No EWS1, no mortgage, no sale.” The Government have tried to argue that there is no systemic problem with sub-11 metre blocks, but some mortgage lenders appear to be taking a different view. If that is the case in relation to sub-11 metre buildings, what is the position on buildings above 11 metres where mortgage lenders may be saying the same thing? The Minister talked about the position depending on whether—I think he said this—the cladding is directly connected to missing firebreaks.”
“If the Government do not know, then all these years on after Grenfell they ought to ensure that they do know the answer, so that it can be published. That relates not just to ACM cladding, where the focus was in the first instance because Grenfell was covered in ACM, but to all other buildings. I take it from what the Minister said that life-critical fire safety detects are the same as “fire safety defects”, as expressed in the regulations, and he referred me to the PAS 9980 process. Finally, I think the Minister recently received a dossier from the End Our Cladding Scandal campaign relating to sub-11 metre blocks. He said in the House when the 2022 Act was being debated that the Government will look at such things on a case-by-case basis, and he expressed the Government’s wish to take things in stages.”
“Secondly, on the numbers, I listened carefully to what the Minister said in reply to my intervention, but I note that the Levelling Up, Housing and Communities Committee called in a report last year for the publication of “all available data on the number of buildings of all heights with historic building safety defects—cladding and non-cladding”. The Government said something very interesting in their reply to the Select Committee, on which I want to probe the Minister. They said: “We are committed to publishing information in data releases as soon as it is appropriate to do so.” “Appropriate” is a very odd word to use. In what circumstances would it be inappropriate to publish the data, except in cases in which the Government do not know the answer to the question?”
“First, I know of one case where the building had gone quite a long way down the route of getting money from the building safety fund—the plans were ready and so on—and then the developer involved finally signed on the dotted line, but the leaseholders’ concern was whether the developer would say, “I had better come in and have look” and poke and prod, and that that will extend the time before remediation, for which the leaseholders have been waiting desperately for a long time. It would be helpful to get an assurance from the Minister that that will not be the consequence of developers finally living up to their responsibilities. Anything that Ministers can do to ensure that developers crack on would be greatly appreciated.”
“It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Mr Gray. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich on his detailed exposition. The scheme, as my hon. Friend made clear, is a good thing, and I support it, because the Government have finally realised that they have some muscle they could apply to developers, rather than just sitting back and saying, “They won’t do anything, and there’s not much that we can do in response.” I therefore welcome the change, because it shows the Government’s willingness to draw on the levers that the state can exercise and to say, “If you don’t do this, certain very unpleasant consequences are going to follow.” I have three brief points.”
“I absolutely accept that point, but would it not be possible for the Government to have a current running total with the health warning that he has just given? In other words, “This is what we know as of this moment. The number may go up or down but, in the interests of full transparency, this is what we are aware of.””
“I note with interest that Denmark had proposed to do the same, but it has now reversed its approach. Is this about weight? As I understand it, National Highways said that 44 tonnes on five axles, and 38.4 tonnes on four axles was not a problem. If the issue is weight and the impact on road surfaces, bridges and so on, why on earth has the Department for Transport made three recent announcements on increasing the weight limits, as mentioned by the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland in his powerful speech? I can only echo everything he said, and, like others, I look forward to what the Minister has to say.”
“Member for Orkney and Shetland, I have looked at the Department for Transport news release that announced the weight increases, including, interestingly, for the longer semi-trailers—known in the trade as LSTs—which will be subject to a 44 tonne weight limit. At the same time, the Government are saying that the weight limit for VCMs has to come down. All of the arguments in the briefing material that the VCM sector, including Mixamate, has given to assist us in today’s debate are also made in the Department for Transport’s press release. That includes arguments about fewer journeys and carbon reductions if the vehicle weighs more. Let us not forget, either, that if a VCM does multiple drop-offs, its weight will go down once it has delivered the first part of concrete.”
“I have looked at all the documentation that it has produced, and it seems to me that it has made a really powerful case. This is an innovative product. Anyone who, for their sins, has tried to mix extremely small amounts of concrete with a spade and shovel will know what a boon it is to have machinery that can do that. It has the flexibility to deliver for longer than the two hours to which drum mixers are confined. It has different strengths and can produce different quantities for different places. It is a great innovation, so I say well done on that. A factory in Sheffield has been responsible for production, but, as we have heard, orders have decreased. I am perplexed as to why we are in this situation. Like the right hon.”
“It is a great pleasure to take part in this debate under your chairship, Mr Efford, and it is a privilege to follow the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael), although I hope someone has noticed that the annunciator has been displaying the hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Bim Afolami) as speaking in this debate for the last 10 minutes. When Hansard is produced, I trust that the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland will get the credit for his contribution and that it will not be inadvertently attributed to a Member who is not present. I will speak very briefly because the case has been made so powerfully, and I cannot wait to hear the Minister, given the spoiler alert in the previous speech. I will speak on behalf of Mixamate, which operates in my constituency in south Leeds.”
“If Ministers cannot be trusted to tell the truth, the House cannot do its job and the confidence of the public in our democracy is undermined.” Let us be honest with ourselves: there is no doubt that the public’s confidence in our democracy, and in us as politicians, has been damaged by what has gone on. Therefore, this is our chance to show that we too think that telling the truth to the House of Commons matters and that we as a House are collectively determined to uphold that fundamental principle, however high and mighty a Member may have been. To agree this report today will not be proof of the shortcomings of the process or of our democracy or the way in which we work; on the contrary, it will be to uphold its integrity and its strength.”
“Here are two people who are trying to trash our institutions and our democracy in the process. That is very different from expressing disagreement with the judgment of the Privileges Committee. Why does this matter? The word has already been used many times in this debate, but it is about trust. I think the Committee summed it up perfectly when it said: “The House proceeds on the basis that what it is told by Ministers is accurate and truthful…Our democracy depends on MPs’ being able to trust that what Ministers tell them in the House of Commons is the truth.”
“It is completely another to call the whole process and those involved in it into question, to accuse them and the report of being “nonsense”, “beneath contempt”, “rubbish” and “deranged”—those are the words that have been used—especially when it is a blatant attempt to undermine the very democratic system we are sent here to uphold. As has already been said, when the Committee is attacked for doing its job by a Member, now a former Member, it is us as MPs who are also being attacked. The other thing that worries me about this situation, and I think it should worry all of us, is that the type of conduct we have seen from Mr Johnson is all too reminiscent of what is going on as we speak on the other side of the Atlantic ocean. People look at what he has said and done here and what Mr Trump is doing over there, and they see the similarities.”
“What is more, I agree with the Committee that Mr Johnson’s behaviour following the receipt of the draft report and since it was published, and the public attacks he has made on the integrity of the members of the Committee, their report and its findings, have been, to put it mildly, distasteful and certainly egregious. They have only compounded the contempt he has committed against this House. To address the argument that has been put about whether people can criticise the report, it is one thing to argue one’s case, to be found against and then to disagree with the findings. Everyone is entitled to do that, and to cast their vote accordingly this evening.”
“First, because we traditionally accept reports of the Privileges Committee, because it did give Mr Johnson every opportunity to explain what he said and why he said it, because it was a cross-party group of MPs, as the Privileges Committee always is, and because its conclusions were unanimous. That is why to suggest there was some sort of conspiracy—I am sorry that one or two Members have veered in that direction in this debate—by one party or certain people to do down the Prime Minister is frankly implausible and insulting to this House.”
“That is why we asked the Privileges Committee to look into what happened and what we had repeatedly, if I may use the word, been told by the Prime Minister. Having looked at the evidence, our colleagues—we are talking about our colleagues here, on both sides of the House—formed their judgment, and I think we have a duty to accept their report and what they have found. That point was made forcefully in a number of speeches, not least by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman) and the right hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May). Why should we do that?”
“It is clearly a very serious matter when one of our number is found in contempt of the House, and no one can or should take any pleasure in the report that we are debating this evening. However, in light of what has just been argued by the hon. Member for Stone (Sir William Cash), it is important that we remember that the revelations about the parties at 10 Downing Street, and they were parties, caused many people a great deal of anger and distress. They saw what went on there and contrasted it with what they had done in faithfully upholding the rules and guidance as they understood them, at great personal cost—above all, when they were not able to be present as their loved ones breathed their last—and they have the right to be angry about what happened.”