Hilary Benn
MP for Leeds South · Labour · United Kingdom
“As the right hon. Gentleman knows, the Irish Government published on 8 June their legislative outline, entitled “The General Scheme of the Legacy of the Troubles Bill 2026”. That is intended to fulfil the commitment that the Irish Government gave in the joint framework to co-operate to the fullest extent possible with the commission.”
“Northern Ireland is a society, as the hon. Gentleman knows better than most, that has been undergoing profound change since the signing of the Good Friday agreement 28 years ago. As the famous lines go, we have a shared history, but not necessarily a shared memory.”
“The right hon. Gentleman raises a really important point, and I am grateful to him for his question. We all have a responsibility—political leaders have a responsibility to call out what was witnessed for what it is and not mince our words, and as I have already indicated, social media companies have a responsibility to ensure that such m…”
“I hope the hon. Lady will recognise that the common travel area, which is more than a century old, is of great benefit to the citizens of the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland. Many people in Northern Ireland live their lives across that border every single day.”
“I do agree with my hon. Friend. The attack on Mr Ogilvie was truly shocking, and there was no justification whatsoever for the racist thuggery we witnessed on the streets of Belfast in the days following.”
“That was, of course, an awful feature of what we saw. One of the things I learned in my discussions was that those from the far right had taken a list of houses in multiple occupation in Belfast—a list that, in the interests of openness, was properly available on the Belfast city council website; the council has now taken it down—and used…”
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“I agree. These deals are all about partnerships and places, including their heritage. All those are an integral part of the approach. In Belfast, the city deal is roaring ahead with things such as the advanced manufacturing centre and considerable investment in digital.”
“As set out in law, whether there is an independent review depends on the outcome of the consent vote that will take place in the Northern Ireland Assembly. The Government would be under a legal obligation to commission a review if it is not passed with cross-community consent. I would expect the review to focus on articles 5 to 10 of the Windsor framework, but it would be for the reviewer to consider how they conduct it.”
“I am aware of the pause that affects the particular project to which the right hon. Gentleman referred. Consideration will then have to be given to how that may or may not be taken forward, but I note his interest and I will follow developments carefully.”
“Advice is being provided about the general product safety regulation. Many companies already meet its terms, because they are exporting from the UK to the European Union. There are steps that some businesses will have to take, but I hope the impact will be very small, because there is a way to get through it.”
“and learned Gentleman that we have spent about nine years as a nation grappling with the problem—he referred to it as a challenge; I describe it as a problem—of how to protect the integrity of the UK’s internal market, avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland, and respect the legitimate interests of our friends and neighbours in Brussels when it comes to the protection of the integrity of their single market. Those are the three things that had to be reconciled. Throughout that process, people have said, “There is another way you can do it. You can have mutual enforcement; you can have this, that and the other.” Those proposals were, during the height of the Brexit negotiations, referred to rather disobliging by others as “magical thinking”, but—”
“The arrangements made under the “Safeguarding the Union” Command Paper to further smooth the flow of goods are also intended to reaffirm in law Northern Ireland’s constitutional place in the UK internal market. The Government are clear that the Windsor framework arrangements, together with the steps taken under “Safeguarding the Union”, respect Northern Ireland’s unique circumstances and, crucially, they do so in a manner that is compatible with international law. Let me say gently to the hon.”
“What a pleasure it is to serve under your chairship, Ms Vaz. I congratulate the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim (Jim Allister) on securing the debate. It is good to see so many colleagues from Northern Ireland in the Chamber. All of us will agree on one thing: the importance of Northern Ireland to our Union. The hon. and learned Member made with great passion a number of points that are familiar to me and others. In return, I say that the Government are committed to the implementation of the Windsor framework in good faith. We are also committed to protecting Northern Ireland’s place in the United Kingdom and in the UK internal market.”
“For my many and varied sins, I spent a number of years chairing the Brexit Select Committee. We looked at all of these things at great length, and I have to say to the hon. and learned Gentleman on the basis of that experience that nothing hoved into view that would address the central question: how to maintain an open border—one of the very few things that everybody agreed on during Brexit was that there could not be checks or infrastructure at the border, for reasons that all of us in the Chamber well understand—while ensuring, as a good neighbour, that the European Union can be confident that goods arriving in Northern Ireland, which could then move freely into the EU by crossing the border into the Republic, comply with the rules of its single market.”
“I hope it will not come as a surprise to the hon. Gentleman if I say that I agree with him. Complaining and ignoring does not get us very far. He anticipates what I am about to come on to: the progress we have seen as a result of the Windsor framework.”
“Frankly, I would not have started from here, as I think he well understands, but this is a consequence of a decision taken by the British people, and Parliament decided to put these arrangements in place. To reject the idea that there is an issue that needs to be addressed is not the responsible thing to do, and therefore the Windsor framework represented a considerable step forward.”
“I have great respect for the right hon. Gentleman, and he and I have had many discussions about progress on implementing the commitments made in “Safeguarding the Union”. He can see the progress that has been made, and he and I have discussed issues where there is work in progress. By the way, the original protocol, which had many flaws and difficulties, and the Windsor framework negotiated by the previous Government, which represents a considerable improvement, were both approved democratically by this Parliament. The hon. and learned Member for North Antrim argues that they were imposed from Brussels, but it was this Parliament that decided the way to reconcile the choices—impossible choices, in a way—that leaving the European Union created.”
“and learned Member for North Antrim talked about the fettering of Northern Ireland businesses’ access to GB, if I heard him correctly. There is no fettering of Northern Ireland businesses’ access to GB.”
“The Windsor framework has replaced potentially 1,000 or 2,000 certificates with one certificate. That is a step forward by anybody’s definition. Turning to the question of the consent vote, that is part of the provision that has been made to allow the Assembly to take a decision. I have triggered the consent process, as Members will be aware. It is for the Assembly to take that decision. If it approves the continued operation of the Windsor framework, it will last for another eight years if the approval is on a cross-community basis, or—I speak from memory—for another four years if not. It is for the Members of the Assembly to make that decision, but the framework really does bring a lot of benefits. At the beginning of his contribution, the hon.”
“Northern Ireland is very much part of the United Kingdom. I was merely pointing out that the protocol and the Windsor framework were democratic decisions of this Parliament, of which Northern Ireland is a part. After much debate, consideration, argument and disputation, that is how this Parliament decided to move things forward. The Windsor framework, which I spoke in favour of and supported, was a considerable step forward on the arrangements originally negotiated in the Northern Ireland protocol, which were never going to work. For example, requiring an export health certificate for every one of the items on the back of the supermarket lorries that come across from Cairnryan to Larne and Belfast every single night was never a practical proposition.”
“Members know, I spend quite a lot of my time dealing with some of the challenges that arise from the implementation of the arrangement. There has been a delay in the arrival of the parcels scheme, which has put back the new, much reduced customs and information requirements. Those will now come into effect next year. We have also reached an agreement with the EU on dental amalgam. Those are all examples of practical ways of making progress.”
“One of the gains as a result of the Windsor framework is that UK public health and safety standards apply on the basis that the goods will remain in Northern Ireland. That is a big step forward compared with what was previously the case. The framework has unlocked agreements with the EU on tariff rate quotas, enabling businesses from Northern Ireland to import steel and agrifood products under UK tariff rates. The right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) referred to the duty reimbursement scheme, but that is now operating. An agreement was reached on human medicines. We will continue to work with the European Union to implement the Windsor framework in good faith, and to deal with some of the challenges. As hon.”
“I did listen very carefully. The record will show exactly what the hon. and learned Gentleman said, but I take his point. When it comes to access to materials and goods moving from GB to Northern Ireland, that does happen under the Windsor framework. There are certain things that businesses have to do, but the goods do flow, and it is important to recognise that in this debate. Indeed, 71% of respondents to last year’s Northern Ireland annual trade survey said that dual market access was enabling their business to grow, so we should listen to what Northern Ireland businesses say. We have the Northern Ireland retail movement scheme, the internal market scheme and the Northern Ireland plant health label scheme, all of which help businesses to do business.”
“Member in the Chamber knows, we will get such an agreement only if we honour the last agreement we signed with the European Union, because why would they give us an agreement if we prove ourselves to be unreliable? Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)).”
“I do understand, and I hear the strength of feeling. I have tried to explain why we are in this situation. It is our departure from the European Union that has created every single one of the issues that the hon. Gentleman has just identified. We have to find a practical way forward in honouring the decision that the British people made in the referendum. Many of the issues that have been identified today could be resolved if we are able to negotiate a sanitary and phytosanitary agreement and a veterinary agreement with the European Union. This Government have come into office committed to trying to do that. The last Government were not committed to doing that. As every hon.”
“The statutory instrument for the Northern Ireland pet travel scheme has now been laid. The scheme significantly reduces the requirements associated with the original Northern Ireland protocol and provides a stable and long-term arrangement for those travelling with their pets within the UK.”
“As I hope the hon. Gentleman is aware, Northern Ireland pet owners will not face any checks and will not be required to hold a pet travel document. In discussing this matter, there is an obligation on him and all of us to ensure that we present the facts, so that people are not unnecessarily troubled.”
“Where were we, Mr Speaker? I welcome the publication of the Northern Ireland Executive’s budget sustainability plan—a positive and necessary step towards sustainable public finances—and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury has agreed with the Northern Ireland Finance Minister that discussions over a long-term fiscal framework for Northern Ireland can now begin.”
“I share my hon. Friend’s view. As the House will be aware, people in Northern Ireland face the longest waiting lists in the whole United Kingdom, and all Governments, including the Northern Ireland Executive, have to balance the money coming in and the funds that they can raise, and take decisions about public service reform. I am very encouraged by the recent event organised by the Northern Ireland Health Minister, which Dr Bengoa, who produced a report on reform in Northern Ireland, returned to Northern Ireland to attend, because there is now a commitment to take forward that process.”
“Given that the European convention on human rights is one of the foundations of the Good Friday agreement, I am frankly astonished that anyone who aspires to lead His Majesty’s Opposition should suggest that our country should leave the ECHR. It would be utterly irresponsible.”
“I do. Indeed, raising £113 million was part of the deal that the last Government put in place as part of the £3.3 billion package that led to the restoration—well, that followed the restoration of the Executive. That includes delivering a balanced budget in the current year, and I am very encouraged by the statements of the Northern Ireland Finance Minister in that regard.”
“Northern Ireland’s greater spending needs are recognised. The Northern Ireland Fiscal Council was established to answer the question of what that additional funding should be, and it came to the conclusion that the figure should be 124%, which will be met this year in respect of the budget. The interim fiscal framework also said that if further credible sources come along suggesting that the figure should be different, the Government would undertake to look at that. But nothing takes away from the Executive’s responsibility to manage the budget that they have, and to take decisions, including on reform.”
“As the hon. Member will be aware, decisions about the allocation of the Northern Ireland budget rest with the Northern Ireland Executive. Funds go to the Justice Minister, who then decides principally how much to pass on to the policing board for policing costs and how much to deal with the justice system and the prisons, which are also under pressure. I recognise the pressure that PSNI officers face, not least because I met a number of those who were injured in the recent disorder.”
“The hon. Gentleman raises an important point, as we discussed just a moment ago. I recognise the pressures on the PSNI, but it falls to the Executive to decide how much to allocate, from the funds available to them, to policing and other public services in Northern Ireland. If they wish to allocate more, they are in a position to do so, but it involves making a choice.”
“On the latter point, the hon. Gentleman just has to wait a week to see what the Budget produces. I simply say to him that the PSNI, the security services and others do an outstanding job in protecting the people of Northern Ireland from terrorist threats, and we should all support them in that endeavour.”
“In addition to the £3.3 billion package that followed the restoration of the Executive, the Executive gained £185 million in July when the main estimates were published. In order to avoid having to repay the debt that the hon. Member refers to, they have to put their finances on a sustainable path, deliver a balanced budget, and raise the additional £130 million revenue to which they committed when the deal was done. The fiscal council’s view is that 124% is the right funding.”
“The Government are committed to implementing the Windsor framework in good faith, and to protecting Northern Ireland’s place in the UK internal market. We continue to take forward policies set out in “Safeguarding the Union”, including most recently the establishment of the independent monitoring panel and the publication of guidance under section 46 of the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020.”
“It is really important that the medicines that are required continue to be supplied. The industry has had quite a period in which to make arrangements to ensure that the labelling rules are met. I hope that, in the time available, those companies that have not done so will do so.”
“Having carefully considered the results of the consultation with industry, the Government decided not to proceed with the introduction of mandatory “Not for EU” labelling in Great Britian from 1 October 2024. Instead, we will take the powers necessary to apply “Not for EU” labelling in the future, if that is required to secure supplies in Northern Ireland.”
“The consultation on UK-wide labelling led the industry to say that such labelling would impose huge costs on industry, and therefore on consumers, through raised goods prices. The aim is to ensure that goods are not delisted in Northern Ireland. That is why we are taking a power to ensure that if there is any evidence of that happening, the labelling requirements set out in “Safeguarding the Union” can be applied, including on individual products on a sectoral basis.”
“I meet regularly with the Chief Constable and his team to discuss a range of issues. While the Chief Constable has operational independence, the Investigatory Powers Commissioner’s Office provides oversight of those powers to ensure that their use is necessary, proportionate and in accordance with the law.”
“I am indeed aware of the background to this case. The original search warrants were quashed and the police investigation was discontinued. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, the Investigatory Powers Tribunal is currently looking at this case, and it would not be appropriate for me to comment while that is ongoing. The Chief Constable has set up the McCullough review to look at the wider issue, and the right hon. Gentleman may well wish to make representations to that review.”
“Everyone in Northern Ireland understands the importance of the city deals to economic growth and encouraging investment, and this Government are committed to working with the Northern Ireland Executive and businesses to make the most of the huge economic opportunities that now lie ahead. That is shown by the progress being made on the Belfast region city deal and the Derry/Londonderry and Strabane city deal. I attended the Derry/Londonderry and Strabane city deal signing on 18 September. The UK Government’s £105 million investment will help to progress transformative innovation, digital and health projects, which will build on the region’s well-established research excellence. The Chancellor will set out the results of the first phase of the spending review on 30 October, which will include an update on the two outstanding city deals.”
“As the Chancellor set out in July, the Government have inherited a £22 billion black hole in the public finances. As a result, the Treasury is having to consider a range of measures to deal with this significant problem. Last month, the Treasury informed the Northern Ireland Department of Finance that the UK Government’s contributions to the Mid South West deal and the Causeway Coast and Glens deal would now be considered as part of the spending review. The Belfast regional city deal and the Derry/Londonderry and Strabane city deal are unaffected and proceeding as planned. Since the announcement of the pause on those two deals, I have met with the First Minister, the Deputy First Minister, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and the Northern Ireland Finance Minister. I will also be meeting the chief executives of those two deals shortly.”
“But in those circumstances, the Chancellor has found it necessary to look at a whole range of commitments that were made by the last Government for which no funding had been identified, and the fault for that does not lie with us, and if any apologies are required, a belated apology from the other side for the mess they left us would be much appreciated.”
“Gentleman that the public finances inheritance the last Government left us— [Interruption.] Well, the last Government made a load of promises but never identified where the money to pay for them would come from, and then they were turfed out and left this Government to deal with the problem. That is the reason for the situation with these two city deals. He can rest assured that I, as Secretary of State, will continue to make the case for the two city deals, which is why I said in my opening answer to him that everybody in Northern Ireland, including me, understands their importance, and I will continue to make that case.”
“I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his response. On the matter of Casement Park, since he raised it, I will say that we took the decision for the reason we set out, and I think it is one that he supports. On the question of Sean Brown, I set out in my letter to the family why I had reached the conclusion that I did. I would just correct the hon. Gentleman: the Belfast city deal was never affected at all—it is roaring ahead and is a great success. In the case of Derry, I was pleased to attend the signing of the deal, which will now progress to its next stage. I would also simply say to the hon.”
“The only other thing I would say is that those two deals are much further back in the process than those for Belfast and Derry; for the Causeway Coast and Glens deal the heads of terms had been signed in April of this year, and for the Mid South West deal the terms had yet to be signed—I think they were due last month. Then there is a further process under which the programme of the deal itself is developed to then get to the stage that Derry reached on 18 September, when the financial agreement is signed and then the business case and the projects are unlocked. So I recognise that it is difficult and, as I have already indicated to the councils, I will continue to argue for the cause of these deals.”
“I absolutely recognise the uncertainty that this has created and, as I have indicated, I will be meeting the chief executives of the two deals very shortly. Given the uncertainty while we await the outcome of the first phase of the spending review, the particular problem that they face is that a lot of effort goes into progressing these deals with the private partners, because the money comes from the Government and from the Northern Ireland Executive in the form of match funding, and then other partners, including the local councils, and they do find themselves in a difficult position— I will not hide from that.”
“I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, whom I welcome to his post—this is, I think, the first time we have faced each other. He makes a fair point about the areas covered by the two deals that have been paused, and the contrast between them and Derry and Strabane, and Belfast. It is important that, in the end, we see economic growth right across Northern Ireland, so I do not dissent from his proposition, but the reason we are in this difficulty is the legacy that this Government have found. Any responsible Chancellor must, in the circumstances, find a way of straightening out the public finances, which were left to us in a really bad state.”
“My hon. Friend makes an important point. The House may have seen that yesterday, the Northern Ireland Executive—whose funding is secure because of the deal that was offered, including the financial deal that was part of the restoration of the institution, which the whole House welcomes—announced that they are proceeding with their share of the contribution, which I hope will offer some comfort to those in the two city deal areas who are working out what this means. It is important that clarity on the future is delivered as quickly as possible, which is why I set out that we will learn more on 30 October.”
“I absolutely take the right hon. Gentleman’s point, given his long experience in these matters and the role that he and others have played in assisting with the restoration of the institution, but I would very gently observe that if the matter was reviewed then, what was decided did not quite make its way into the fiscal inheritance that we have found ourselves left with. That fiscal inheritance—rather than a lack of support for the deals; I think the whole House supports them—is the cause of the problem.”
“I will indeed be that champion. May I take this opportunity to congratulate my hon. Friend on assuming the leadership of her party? We all wish her well in that endeavour. I also express our appreciation of the former leader of the SDLP, my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood), who is sat next to her. Let us be frank: the truth is that when bad news is forced on the Government, it is unwelcome, whenever it is announced.”
“This is a company that nearly went bust; then investment came in, and it is now helping to deliver the bus transportation of the future from a factory that I and many other Members have had the chance to visit. There are a lot of good things happening in Northern Ireland, and we need to build on them.”
“I do not agree with the right hon. Gentleman’s last proposition. As I have already indicated to the House, given the fiscal inheritance, the prudent thing is for the Government to say, “We need to look at a range of things in the round.” I entirely recognise that this decision is unwelcome to many people. The best thing we can do is give certainty as quickly as possible, which would assist, but I entirely understand the practical difficulties that this decision creates in the meantime. I will learn more about that when I meet the chief executives of the deal areas. The House is united, though, on our shared desire to maximise economic growth in Northern Ireland. This week, we have had a really good example of that with the announcement of the very significant order that has gone to Wrightbus.”
“As I am sure my hon. Friend understands, anyone holding my office, including me, will argue the corner of Northern Ireland. I will continue to do so.”