Stephen Kinnock
MP for Aberafan Maesteg · Labour · United Kingdom
“I thank the shadow Secretary of State for her kind words and look forward to our exchanges across the Dispatch Box. I am ready to engage with her on getting the maximum benefits for the people of Wales.”
“I thank the right hon. Lady and look forward to working with her. My understanding is that there were challenges around the helicopter capability. Decisions were taken by Natural Resources Wales some time ago to change the way that the tendering for helicopter capability works. We certainly need to look at that.”
“I thank my right hon. Friend for his question. Like him, I pay tribute to all those involved in the collective and heroic response to the wildfires.”
“I thank the right hon. Lady for her question. Many of the ideas coming forward for devolving power right across our United Kingdom, beyond Cardiff Bay and Holyrood, are very exciting, and I look forward to exploring them with her.”
“Just to be clear, this is not about staying out of the issue; it is about respecting the devolution settlement, but being prepared to work constructively where we can in partnership with the Welsh Government. The hon.”
“I know about and welcome the right hon. Gentleman’s strong connections to Wales. I recognise the connectivity benefits that WSMR’s proposal could deliver, particularly for passengers in Wales and the west midlands.”
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“We have selected six areas, but off the cuff I cannot tell the shadow Minister exactly what they are or whether they have been announced yet. If they have not been announced, I will not be able to tell him, but if they have been, of course I can share that information. I suspect that the areas will primarily be based on assessed need, but they are trial pilots, so there is no reason to suspect that they will be limited to six. Let us see how much traction they get. Question put and agreed to. Clause 49 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill Clause 50 Removal of patients by authorised persons Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.”
“Indeed, the co-chair of the approved mental health professional leads network has said that extending police powers in this way to health and care professionals would have “disastrous unintended consequences for both individuals in crisis and those responding to mental health emergencies.” Nine organisations, including the Royal College of Psychiatrists, the Royal College of Nursing, the Royal College of Emergency Medicine and the Association of Ambulance Chief Executives, have made a joint statement of concern about extending police powers to health and care professionals in this way.”
“That would enable other professionals to enter premises by force, if necessary, to remove a person believed to be suffering from a mental health disorder under section 135. Under section 136, other professionals would have the power to remove a person from a public space to a place of safety. Both those changes would represent a major shift in roles and responsibilities for health and care professionals.”
“We have previously discussed Government amendments 26 to 29, which seek to overturn amendments tabled in the other place by Lord Kamall, Earl Howe and Baroness May, which added police and other authorised persons to sections 2, 3 and 5 of the Mental Health Act. As I said in the earlier debate, the police currently have no powers under those sections, and the decision makers on whether to use those sections are health and social care professionals. We do not support extending police powers to health and social care professionals in this way, and the police do not support such an extension either. We are therefore seeking to remove clause 50 from the Bill. The clause extends legal powers currently held by the police under sections 135 and 136 to other professionals.”
“That would be counter to our shared aim of ensuring that people in a mental health crisis get the right support as rapidly as possible. We are also concerned that giving health and social care staff statutory powers that increase the number of situations in which they may have to use reasonable force could have unintended risks for the safety of staff, patients and the public.”
“There has already been a 10% decrease in section 136 detentions in the year ending March 2024. There remain certain circumstances in which the police play a vital role in keeping particular people and the wider public safe. A blanket approach of extending powers in sections 135 and 136 to other professionals may not necessarily address the issues being faced by police officers and could create other unintended challenges. For example, while the current Act deliberately sets out who has what powers in what situations, a blanket extension of the police’s powers under sections 135 and 136 to other professionals—giving multiple agencies the same powers—risks confusion over who should respond in an emergency situation and could lead to delays in action as services try to decide who should act.”
“It also says: “Delegating police powers to professionals without consulting them, or patients would be a very damaging way to make policy.” It is important to restate what I said in an earlier sitting, namely that the majority of assessments under the Mental Health Act happen without police involvement, and that action is already under way to further reduce the amount of police involvement. However, we of course recognise the pressures that the police are facing and that police involvement can be stigmatising for people who are detained. Almost all police forces in England and Wales are implementing the “right care, right person” approach, a police-led initiative to reduce inappropriate police involvement in cases where people have health or social care needs.”
“I absolutely can give my hon. Friend that assurance. There has to be a team-based approach to this work. In any successful team, it is about ensuring that everybody knows their role and that everybody’s role within that team is appropriate. There has to be good collaboration and co-ordination. That is why I must say that I am quite taken aback by the attempts in the other place to insert these clauses; I do not think that is a safe way to make legislation. That is why it is so important that we remove the clause from the Bill. The statement that I referred to earlier, by all those eminent organisations, called it a “radical proposal with a number of serious and potentially dangerous consequences”.”
“Action under the “right care, right person” approach is already reducing that further: there was a 10% decrease in section 136 detentions in the year ending March 2024. Simply taking the blanket approach of extending the powers may not actually address the issues the police face and could have unintended negative consequences, such as risks for staff, patients and the public, and delays in response. The Government are profoundly concerned about making such a change without proper engagement with the groups that would be impacted. I therefore do not commend clause 50 to the Committee. Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill.”
“Extending the police powers in section 135 and 136 to other authorised persons would represent a major shift in the roles and responsibilities of health and social care professionals. Our key health and social care stakeholders have warned us that extending the powers could have dangerous consequences, and that making changes to them without proper consultation is not the right way to go about making policy. I again extend my thanks to those stakeholders for their efforts to share their views on the role of police in mental health-related incidents. We of course recognise the pressures that police face. However, I must emphasise that the majority of assessment under the Mental Health Act already happen without police involvement.”
“In turn, among other things, that requires personal data to be processed lawfully, fairly and transparently, and confers certain rights on data subjects to access that data and have any errors rectified. That gives vital reassurance to patients about the processing of their personal data under the Mental Health Act. For those reasons, I commend clauses 51 to 53 to the Committee.”
“That report will be shared with the bodies set out in the clause, including the patient’s responsible clinician, the relevant integrated care board and the local authority. Clause 53 will ensure that such processing of personal data must comply with the controls and safeguards in the legal framework that governs the use of personal data. That includes compliance with key principles such as lawfulness and fairness, and adherence to high standards of information security, privacy and transparency. In essence, the provision means that where there is a duty or power under the Mental Health Act to process personal data, the processing—including the sharing—of the information must be done in a way that will not contravene data protection legislation, including the UK GDPR and the Data Protection Act 2018.”
“Finally, clause 53 will ensure that where provisions in the Mental Health Act provide for the processing of personal data, any such processing, including the sharing of data, is subject to data protection legislation, including the Data Protection Act 2018 and the UK general data protection regulation principles. For example, personal data—including special category data such as health data—is likely to be contained in a report produced under clause 4, which inserts clauses specific to people with a learning disability and autistic people, so that their care, treatment and differing support needs are identified, and recommendations are made to ensure that those needs can be met.”
“The clause will introduce new powers to enable the Crown dependencies’ courts to send patients who are subject to their equivalent of remand under sections 35 or 36, or an interim hospital order under section 38, to suitably secure hospitals in England and Wales for treatment and assessment. The changes will ensure that that vulnerable cohort of patients can receive appropriate and secure treatment in England and Wales, while enabling the Crown dependencies’ courts to maintain control of the criminal proceedings, so that justice can be done swiftly and efficiently.”
“Instead, courts will be directed to bail the defendant and work with local health services to put in place appropriate support and care to address risks to their safety. The clause does not amend the court’s power to refuse bail in respect of a child or young person for their own welfare, because it is already the case that youths cannot be subject to a custodial remand solely for mental health reasons. However, in exceptional circumstances it may still be necessary for a court to remand a child to local authority accommodation for their mental wellbeing, and for that reason the power is preserved. On clause 52, patients from the Crown dependencies—the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man—currently cannot be transferred to England and Wales under sections 35, 36 and 38 of the Mental Health Act.”
“Clause 51 will reform the Bail Act 1976 to prevent courts from remanding a defendant for their own protection where the only concern relates to their mental health.In response to the independent review, a commitment was made to end the use of prison as a place of safety. Those reforms were welcomed, but concerns were raised about the use of a similar power under the Bail Act 1976 to remand a defendant to prison for their “own protection”. That power can sometimes be used when the court is concerned that the defendant’s mental health presents a risk to their own safety. Nobody should be sent to prison because they are struggling with their mental health, so the clause will amend the Bail Act to prevent the remand of a defendant for their own protection solely on mental health grounds.”
“Clauses 52 and 53 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 54 Review of duty to notify incidents Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.”
“On the question of legal limbo, courts in England and Wales will not be able to exercise any criminal jurisdictional powers in relation to these patients. Their powers are restricted to renewal of the remand or interim order, ancillary powers and recommendations for the patient’s return, as well as obligations to inform the Secretary of State. We have included additional provisions in the Bill to allow courts in England and Wales to order a section 36 for treatment for a patient who has previously been transferred from the Crown dependencies on the equivalent of a section 35 for assessment. That is aimed at enabling access to treatment for the patient and preventing the need for the patient to be required to travel back and forth between jurisdictions. Question put and agreed to. Clause 51 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.”
“Member for Hinckley and Bosworth, asked about people who are under 18. Custody should be a last resort for children, and the legislative threshold for remanding a child to custody is already very high. Under-18s are not included in this provision, as the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 already precludes the remand of children to custody solely for mental health reasons. When the court’s concerns relate only to the child’s welfare, the preferred option would usually be bail. In exceptional circumstances, a court might remand a child to local authority accommodation, such as a children’s home or foster care, for their own mental wellbeing. Including children in this provision would remove that important safeguard.”
“The hon. Member for Solihull West and Shirley asked how the courts would be supported in training for judges and so on. To safely enact that reform, it is vital that the appropriate pathways are in place from first contact with the criminal justice system into the right care and support, whether that is community mental health services or receiving treatment in hospital under the Mental Health Act, where appropriate. We will work with courts, health service commissioners and clinicians to ensure that sentencers have the confidence to bail vulnerable defendants into the community, with the appropriate package of support and smooth pathways into treatment in a healthcare setting for those who need it. We will confirm the timelines for commencement in due course. The shadow Minister, the hon.”
“I rise to speak to clause 54 and to a number of new clauses relating to the treatment of children and young people. I turn first to clause 54. The Care Quality Commission (Registration) Regulations 2009 require the CQC to be notified of specified events, one of which is where a child is placed in an adult psychiatric unit and the placement has lasted more than 48 hours. When the CQC is notified, the circumstances are reviewed and the risk is assessed. These notifications can trigger further assessments and inspections, and require the trust to provide regular updates and give assurance that the children concerned are being safeguarded.”
“The CQC already publishes “Monitoring the Mental Health Act”, a statutory annual report that must be laid before Parliament, in which it reports on the number of people under 18 who are admitted to adult wards. Additionally, it reports qualitative information on placements for children and young people, such as placements on children’s general wards. I hope that I have addressed that point.”
“As part of the review that is mentioned on the face of the Bill, we will consider whether that remains the case for receiving notifications, and whether it remains appropriate. My hon. Friend also asked about further safeguards for children and young people, including those in inappropriate settings. Obviously, the placement of a child or young person on an adult mental health ward only happens following a thorough clinical assessment. Trusts are required to have robust local safeguarding protocols in place, including mandatory staff training on safeguarding and incident-reporting mechanisms, to ensure accountability and oversight. Staff are appropriately trained in child and adolescent mental health care, and they must meet level 3 competency in safeguarding children. The hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon asked about data.”
“The hon. Member for Guildford asked about timelines. There is the timeline for the review on the face of the Bill, and then there is the broader question about implementation and how all the moving parts fit together. We have now had the spending review, which will provide a financial envelope for mental health more broadly, and for implementation of the Bill. We will be ready to move forward with implementation on that basis, which will include the code of practice. My hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford asked about a time limit for notification. It is already a legislative requirement for the CQC to be notified when a child or young person is placed on an adult ward for a continuous period of longer than 48 hours. In addition, the previous Government assessed that the current requirement of 48 hours was sufficient.”
“The Human Rights Act, which the new clause 10 seeks to modify, extends UK-wide. The amendments are therefore necessary to ensure that the same Human Rights Act protections extend to all four nations. I hope that hon. Members feel able to support the amendments.”
“Private providers are already taken to be exercising a function of a public nature for the purposes of section 6(3)(b) of the Human Rights Act when caring for patients detained under the Mental Health Act or providing care for patients due to the effect of section 73 of the Care Act 2014. The new clause seeks to extend those protections to other mental health patients in private provision, where care is arranged and/or paid for by the NHS or a local authority. As the new clause is a modification of the Human Rights Act, this is a reserved matter and the amendment will therefore apply in all four nations. Government amendments 37 and 38 are minor technical amendments to the Bill’s extent provision in clause 57 to ensure that our amendment—new clause 10—relating to the Human Rights Act extends UK-wide.”
“Those functions are section 117 aftercare; services provided in pursuance of arrangements made by a local authority in Scotland, discharging its duty under section 25 of the Mental Health (Care and Treatment) (Scotland) Act 2003; and in-patient treatment and assessment for mental disorder, whether or not a patient is detained under the Mental Health Act. When carrying out those services, private providers will be required to act compatibly with the convention rights set out in the Human Rights Act. Many patients in private facilities already have those protections.”
“The new clause takes forward a commitment made in the Lords by Baroness Merron to address issues relating to the unequal application of the Human Rights Act 1998 for some mental health patients. Sadly, this issue was highlighted following the death of Paul Sammut. I extend my deepest condolences to his family. We now wish to take action to ensure a more equal application of the Human Rights Act, with the aim of extending its protection to certain mental health patients. Under this amendment, private providers will be taken to be exercising a function of a public nature for the purposes of section 6(3)(b) of the Human Rights Act when they are carrying out certain services and when those services are arranged and/or paid for by either local authorities or the NHS.”
“I thank the shadow Minister for those questions. I will have to get back to him in writing, because the questions that he asks obviously have an important legal dimension, and it was physically impossible to get the information in the time between his sitting down and my standing up to speak. I am not a human rights lawyer either, so it is best if I write to him on those points. Question put and agreed to . New clause 10 accordingly read a Second time, and added to the Bill . Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. — (Taiwo Owatemi .)”
“For that reason, we do not think the new clause is necessary, and it could place a disproportionate burden on ICBs and mental health providers. I therefore hope that the hon. Member for Winchester will be satisfied not to press it. I commend clauses 22 and 23 to the Committee.”
“New clause 4 would place a general duty on integrated care boards in England to ensure that community services have the necessary resources to meet demand, and to report on this every two years. This duty to commission local services based on local need is already placed upon integrated care boards by the National Health Service Act 2006, as amended by the Health and Care Act 2022. An integrated care board must arrange for the provision of services as it considers necessary to meet the reasonable requirements of the people for whom it is responsible. Integrated care boards and their mental health trusts are required to prepare a joint forward plan that describes how the ICB will arrange for NHS services to meet their population’s physical and mental health needs.”
“The clause will remove the ability of the responsible clinician to apply conditions to a person’s community treatment order which are appropriate but not necessary, giving a higher threshold for conditions to be set. The clause will allow the mental health tribunal to recommend that the responsible clinician reconsider the necessity of conditions specified in a CTO if the tribunal determines that the patient is not yet suitable for discharge. For example, while not set out in the Bill, the tribunal may use this power if it finds the conditions imposed in a CTO to be possibly disproportionate, overly restrictive, lacking clinical benefit or not treating the person as an individual.”
“Those who are supporting the patient in the community should be a part of the decision of whether the restrictions of the CTO are still required. I turn to clause 23. In addition to reducing the number of people placed on CTOs, as has been referred to in relation to clauses 6 and 22, we aim to provide greater protection to those subject to them. CTOs extend the coercive powers of the Mental Health Act into people’s lives beyond hospital. CTOs should be used only when necessary, with conditions tailored to the individual rather than applying blanket restrictions. Currently, some CTO conditions display an overreach of power, such as requiring abstinence from alcohol even if this is unrelated to the person’s mental health condition.”
“Making sure that only those who need to be on a community treatment order will be put on one supports the principles behind the reform of the Mental Health Act 1983, including the principles of least restriction, of therapeutic benefit and of treating the person as an individual. It should also positively impact the racial disparities that have been seen in the use of community treatment orders. The community clinician’s opinion is important when a patient is under a CTO, because the clinician may have a better understanding of the patient’s progress, including how well the patient is engaging with their treatment while in the community. Their insights are valuable in deciding whether the patient should be discharged to a community treatment order or recalled to the hospital if their symptoms worsen.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Desmond. I will discuss a number of issues concerning community treatment orders and ensuring sufficient resources for community-based care. Clause 22 will add the community clinician as a third key decision maker for community treatment orders, alongside the responsible clinician and approved mental health professional, ensuring additional professional oversight. Involving the community clinician in the initial request for a community treatment order will improve the planning and implementation of community treatment orders by ensuring good communication between ward and community doctors, aiding continuity of care. It should also help to prevent the inappropriate use of community treatment orders, for instance to free up beds where there are pressures on acute wards.”
“The term “unreasonable delay” is subject to review by the courts, and further guidance will be given in the code of practice. On what happens if the responsible clinician and the community clinician disagree, the addition of a third decision maker is not about overruling the responsible clinician, who continues to have overall responsibility for the patient on the community treatment order. Including the community clinician at the point of putting someone on a community treatment order helps to ensure continuity of care for the patient. Involving the community clinician in other decisions around the community treatment order, particularly recall, revocation, renewal and discharge, means they can provide an additional insight into the patient’s status while in the community.”
“Clause 23 ordered to stand part of the Bill . Clause 24 Nominated person Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.”
“However, the outcome of our stakeholder engagement was that tribunal colleagues did not consider that it was appropriate for them to make clinical judgments, for example whether a condition is of clinical benefit. Providing the power to recommend that the responsible clinician reconsiders the conditions allows the tribunal to provide additional scrutiny but also allows for clinical discretion in decision making. The hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon asked about training. The training plan will be in the first written ministerial statement. On where the terms are defined, clause 10 defines responsible clinician and clause 22 defines community clinician. We will define the distinction between the roles in the code of practice. Question put and agreed to. Clause 22 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.”
“Yes, the responsible clinician has primacy. On the workforce impact, our impact assessment, which was published alongside the Bill, sets out the additional hours of required clinician activity. We will invest in implementing these reforms. On the meaning of the word “necessary”, we will provide further guidance in the code of practice to provide for a range of scenarios to help to clarify necessary conditions, as well as to clarify that failure to meet those conditions should not always result in recall to hospital. On the requirement for a responsible clinician to respond to recommendations, we considered giving the tribunal the power to change or remove conditions on a person’s community treatment order.”
“That will help the nominated person to remain actively involved in protecting patients’ rights and kept informed about a patient’s care and treatment.”
“Those changes will help both to reduce the number of inappropriate community treatment orders and to ensure that safeguards are in place for patient safety and public protection. Finally, clause 28 provides that before deciding to transfer a patient, the person responsible for taking that decision must consult the patient’s nominated person, unless consultation is not reasonably practicable or would involve unreasonable delay. The nominated person will not be able to object to a transfer, because there may be good reasons for transferring a patient—for example, if a different trust can provide better care, such as a specialist eating disorder unit. Consulting the nominated person, however, means that they are aware of the reasons for transfer and how it will benefit the patient.”
“It is a well-established process that allows for clinical discretion, but means that the nominated person can continue to represent the patient’s rights in other ways. Clause 26 also reduces from six months to three months the time period during which the nominated person cannot make another order for discharge. That reflects the changes in detention periods under clause 29. Clause 27 will give the nominated person a new power to object to the use of a community treatment order. We also recognise, however, the importance of protecting patients and the public, so if the responsible clinician is concerned that without a community treatment order, there would be a risk of danger to the patient or others, they can overrule the nominated person’s objection.”
“Although the nominated person can continue to represent the patient in other ways, they can still be displaced by the court from the role entirely if their actions indicate they are unsuitable for the role—for example, if they are repeatedly objecting to admission without considering the welfare of the patient or the interests of the public. Approved mental health professionals can continue to use that process. Clause 26 will transfer the nearest relative provisions relating to the power to order discharge of a patient to the new nominated person role. The power can be temporarily overruled by a responsible clinician if they think that the patient’s discharge would result in danger to themselves or others.”
“However, currently if the nearest relative exercises one of their powers, such as the ability to block admission, but the professional believes their objection is unreasonable, the only means of overruling them is to remove or displace them as the nearest relative. This can leave patients without someone to represent their interests during detention. Clause 25 will allow the approved mental health professional to make use of the existing barring order to temporarily overrule the nominated person, if the patient would be likely to act in a manner dangerous to other persons or themselves if their admission was blocked. This is a well-established process.”
“If there is no suitable person with parental responsibility willing to act, the approved mental health professional must take into account the patient’s past and present wishes and feelings, so far as reasonably ascertainable, when deciding who to appoint. We will establish an expert taskforce to support the development of the statutory code of practice to provide clear guidance for professionals involved in the nominated person appointment process for children and young people. Clause 25 will require the approved mental health professional to consult the nominated person before they make an application for admission for treatment or guardianship. This is an existing right for the nearest relative.”
“The Government do not agree that a person with residual parental responsibility should always be blocked from being a nominated person, as the child arrangement order or special guardianship may be in place for reasons other than the parent being a risk to the child. For example, the parent might struggle with their own health issues, but that does not necessarily mean that they would not be an effective nominated person. The situation is different in the case of a care order because the local authority is being given lead parental responsibility. We have engaged with the Children’s Commissioner on that point.”
“Government amendments 40 and 41 will remove paragraph 11(3) to 11(5) of schedule 2 from the Bill, as it is unnecessary to specify in legislation which person with parental responsibility the approved mental health professional must appoint as nominated person for an under 16-year-old. A prescriptive list of who an approved mental health professional must appoint for a child under 16 may prevent a more suitable adult from being chosen as the nominated person. The Bill states that for under-16-year-olds lacking competence, an approved mental health professional must appoint a parent, or whoever has parental responsibility, to be the child’s nominated person. This would include consideration of special guardians and child arrangement orders.”
“Where children have competence to choose their own nominated person, a health or social care professional, or advocate, will be required to witness the nomination and confirm in writing that the nominated person is over 18 and suitable to take up the position. Regardless of nominated person status, parents should be involved in a child’s care and treatment, and they will retain their legal rights under parental responsibility. Safeguards are in place to allow for the overruling and displacement of the nominated person if they are behaving in a way that is not in the child or young person’s best interests.”
“Like the current “nearest relative” provision, which the nominated person will replace, the amendments do not take into account the greater diversity of modern family structures—for example, where a step-parent may play a vital role in a young person’s life but does not have formal parental responsibility. Our engagement with children and young people during the development of the Bill suggests that the vast majority will appoint a parent as their nominated person. However, we think having choice is important to prevent children from having to have a nominated person who may not engage with the role or act in accordance with their best interests, just because they have formal parental responsibility.”
“The Bill extends the nominated person safeguard to some restricted part III patients, but their nominated person’s powers will be limited, as appropriate, in the interests of public safety and criminal justice. Amendments 54 and 55 would require nominated persons for patients under 16 to have parental responsibility for the child, whether chosen by the child or appointed for them. The Bill currently requires this if the child lacks competence to appoint their own nominated person. However, where a child has competence to decide, we think it is right that they can choose the person to represent their interests. That view was supported by the majority of respondents to the White Paper consultation on reform of the Mental Health Act, and it is in keeping with the principles of choice, autonomy and treating the person as an individual.”