Mike Nesbitt
Strangford · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Think public service, wisdom, generosity and courtesy. Think integrity, insight and curiosity, the lack of which is a key criticism of the two public inquiry reports of recent days.”
“I spoke during Members' statements earlier about the untimely passing of the Western Trust's chair, Dr Tom Frawley CBE. I repeat my condolences to his family, his friends and his many admirers.”
“I absolutely share the Member's ambition to see people living in the community. The trusts provide a range of evidence-informed programmes for individuals who are awaiting assessment. For children and young people, early intervention teams deliver proactive needs-led programmes that are neurodiversity-affirming and trauma-informed.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Western Trust has assured me that it has undertaken a comprehensive early engagement exercise with stakeholders, involving all political parties, local businesses, service users, community groups, the Patient and Client Council (PCC), local media, community planning partners and Departments, including mine and D…”
“The role played by social workers in delivering safeguarding and family support interventions is complex and challenging. The work frequently pivots on multidisciplinary collaboration, with parents and carers positioned as partners in the formulation and delivery of safeguarding and support plans.”
“I fully recognise the impact of the current delays on individuals and families. The situation has arisen due to a combination of factors, including funding that falls short of objectively assessed need and previously missed opportunities to reform health and social care delivery.”
The complete record
Every one of 5,312 lines we hold for Mike Nesbitt, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 67 of 107.
“The proposers of the motion and the amendment referred to the south Armagh policing review. From memory, the main recommendation was with regard to Crossmaglen PSNI station. I just note — I do not think that it is a declaration — that I am a former member of the Policing Board and was so at the time of the review's publication. <BR /> <BR />For a bit of context, I think about the places where I have worked in my professional career: Broadcasting House, the BBC's base in Belfast; Havelock House, UTV's base; Windsor House, with the Victims' Commission; and, of course, 13 years here in Parliament Buildings. All were comfortable places to work; in fact, this one — Parliament Buildings — is surely one of the most privileged workplaces in the whole country. I visited Crossmaglen PSNI station some months ago.”
“Removing the ability of a landlord to end a tenancy for no reason provides much more security to households, many of whom, as I said, are among the vulnerable in our society. This is a reasonable, proportionate and balanced proposal, which this party is happy to support.”
“I am referring to statistics for the financial year 2022-23, which also indicate that 48·15% of rentals were with private landlords and the rest with the Housing Executive and housing associations. If we assume that the majority are professional in their management of tenants, we still have to accept that there will always be exceptions to that rule — landlords who are attempting to take advantage of vulnerable tenants. That is why we support the motion. <BR /> <BR />I am sure that every Member is aware of circumstances where tenants have chosen not to report repairs that are required or issues that they are having with the property to the landlord due to fear that, rather than having those issues rectified, they will end up being evicted.”
“On the other hand, it may be that the tenant becomes a tenant because they cannot afford to own their own property, and that introduces, of course, the concept of vulnerability. Let us look at the motivation of the landlord. It may be that they are decent, reasonable people who just want to make a lawful living by renting their property, but, on the other hand, it may be because they want to pursue profit at all costs, inflicting an unreasonable, hurtful, damaging regime upon the tenant. <BR /> <BR />On the former motivation of the landlord, let us recognise the important role that private landlords play in addressing housing need. Housing Executive statistics suggest that private landlords account for almost 50% of housing rentals.”
“I support the motion but, unfortunately, not the amendment because I feel that it does not actually address the fundamental point, which is to ban no-fault evictions. That is not to say that extending notice to quit periods should not be looked at and, indeed, increased. <BR /> <BR />This is a question of balance between what is best for the tenant and what is best for the landlord. To put it another way, it is about rights: the rights of the landlord and the rights of the tenant. When you have two sets of rights, they often compete and give rise to a tension. That is the case here. That leads me to wonder about the motivations of the two groups. Perhaps it is easier to assess the motivation of the tenant. It may be that a tenant simply does not want to commit to owning property. That is a perfectly valid position to take.”
“The announcement of additional funding that the Minister referred to was warmly welcomed in the sector. On sustained investment and clarity, can the Minister advise what his Department is going to do to increase capacity in the home care workforce?”
“That was the last time that that gentleman was allowed to take part in the Stormont House talks. <BR /> <BR />I am saying two things: there was an alternative — of course there was — to choosing to pick up a gun; and we have a duty, which is unfulfilled as yet, to deliver full truth and justice to the victims.”
“They would not subject themselves to oral cross-examination. They would not engage properly and fully with that inquiry. <BR /> <BR />I am also minded of leading our delegation in the Stormont House talks. One day, we were discussing the flow of information from the Republic to Northern Ireland. I asked an official from the Department of Justice in Dublin, who only appeared once, about the flow of intelligence. The Irish Government were very keen to say that information will come from the Garda Commissioner, unredacted, to the Chief Constable of the Police Service. My question was, "If it were coming from G2, the Irish Army's intelligence unit, to the Garda Commissioner, could the head of G2 redact it before it got to the Irish police?". He said, "Yes, he could. The head of G2 could redact it before it got into that information flow".”
“John Hume was the only man on this planet to be awarded the Martin Luther King Jnr Non-Violent Prize, the Mahatma Gandhi Peace Prize and the Nobel Peace Prize. He made a choice — a choice to pursue non-violent means. That was the same late Martin McGuinness who appeared before the Saville inquiry into Bloody Sunday, and said there were things that he would not disclose because, as a member of the Provisional IRA, he had a code that trumped providing information to the loved ones about what happened on Bloody Sunday. <BR /> <BR />That reminds me of the Smithwick Tribunal of Inquiry in the Republic into the murders of RUC men Harry Breen and Bob Buchanan. Mr Justice Smithwick was very clear in his conclusions. The IRA engaged on their own terms. They took their time, and they chose to engage in writing.”
“I am reminded of a quiet discussion that I had as party leader with the late Martin McGuinness about the use of violence. I put it to him that if you pick up a gun, as the murderers of Kingsmills did, you make a choice. You choose to pick it up, so there was an alternative. Martin's response was:”
“What percentage of the fund comes to Northern Ireland? Specifically, does that match the 3% of the population who reside here?”
“We have to have that debate, and, if the answer is, "Yes, the police are the best-placed service", the second question is, "Is that reflected in the Budget?". Currently, the answer to that is, "Absolutely not". If the police are going to do health duties, we have to have a debate about how the money is divided. <BR /> <BR />Those cross-cutting things are really important. Unless they are embedded in the Budget, as well as in the Programme for Government, I suspect that we will not deliver as we want to for our people. I know that that is for another day, but we need to have a fundamental review of how we do budgets and align them on a multi-year basis to Programmes for Government.”
“<BR /> <BR />Another issue — I say this as an outgoing member of the Policing Board — is that the police are now looking at the number of events that they attend that are health incidents and not crime incidents. I think that they are also looking at the number of hours that police officers spend in corridors outside emergency departments, waiting to hand over patients, particularly mental health patients, and sign them off to the hospital. That is a cross-cutting thing. The old saying is, "Police officers' response vehicles carry defibrillators; ambulance crews do not carry handcuffs". The police tend to be the responders of first and last resort. It may be that that is the best way to keep people safe.”
“There is then the question of transport, so the Minister for Infrastructure is at the table, as is the AERA Minister, who has responsibility for rural affairs. Tackling educational underachievement is therefore an all-Executive issue, and it needs budget. However, if we look at these Estimates, we see that they are divided up, Department by Department. We know that, when money is tight, Ministers will look at everything that they do that costs money and divide it into two columns: statutory responsibilities and non-statutory responsibilities. If you are in the latter, God help you, because you are more than likely to be cut,. That will affect cross-cutting and outcomes-based accountability government, which will affect how we deliver for our people.”
“<BR /> <BR />The other frustration for me is that in May 2016 — nearly eight years ago — we agreed that our Programme for Government would be an OBA — outcomes-based accountability — Programme for Government and that cross-cutting measures would be at its heart. For example, when it comes to educational underachievement, we would no longer point the finger simply at the Minister of Education and say, "That's your problem", because we understand that healthier children do better at school, so the Minister of Health has a role to play with the Minister of Education. We also understand that children in better housing are likely to do better at school, so, suddenly, the Minister for Communities has a role to play.”
“I believe that they are still working on it, but I was surprised that they were not able to say in any detail what the return on investment was. However, they were all certain that Northern Ireland Screen would come out on top. Of course, that makes me think that return on investment is not just about the finances. What about the impact that Northern Ireland Screen has on promoting a positive global image of Northern Ireland? It is more complex than a straight financial transaction, but, if we are concerned about value for money, surely we need to know the financial return on investment from those five bodies.”
“<BR /> <BR />On the Estimates, it seems to me that we are saying, "Let's look at what we've done before and give Departments 65% of that annual figure". I am not sure that that is at all the way to go. Recently, in Committee, we were talking to the Department, and I asked about five of its arm's-length bodies or non-departmental public bodies: Tourism Northern Ireland, Tourism Ireland, Invest Northern Ireland, InterTradeIreland and Northern Ireland Screen. The question was, "What is the return on the investment?"; in other words, "For every pound of public money that we put into those bodies, how much do they generate in return?". Surprisingly, the Department's officials were not able to answer that question.”
“In December 2021, the Department published 'The Path to Net Zero Energy', which, I think we will all agree, is a keynote document on climate change and the need to get to net zero. On page 26, there is a table estimating capital investment and savings. I am sure that departmental officials will say that those are indicative figures, but they are interesting because, in terms of additional capital investment, the table says that the investment will be £1·2 billion per annum starting in 2021 with net savings of £301 million. There is no evidence whatever that those funds were allocated. Of course, not all of that investment would have been public money, but a significant amount would have been, and I can find no indication that I can find that additional funds were made available to meet that £1·2 billion annual investment.”
“Like many Members who have spoken, I am somewhat frustrated at, shall we say, the suboptimal manner in which we are dealing with this business. I imagine that the Minister is also frustrated by that. Multi-year Budgets are a sensible and desirable idea. It is inevitable that those Budgets will come, and not before time. <BR /> <BR />Part of my frustration is at the way we do business, and I want to use the next couple of minutes to make a plea for thinking about doing it differently, but, before that, I will turn to money already spent. As party spokesperson on the economy, I was on the Economy Committee when the Minister chaired that Committee. We scrutinised the energy strategy.”
“Thank you, Minister. Are you rejecting the Northern Ireland Audit Office recommendation for a comprehensive review of alternative arrangements? Are you just ruling that out?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. If he checks the wording of the motion, he will see that we are not calling for mutualisation. We are calling for a review of how NI Water is governed, with nothing ruled out and nothing ruled in.”
“The question is this: has that happened? As a party, we call on the Department to follow the Audit Office recommendations, but, in the meantime, to stop taking the interest and dividends from Northern Ireland Water and allow it to invest to facilitate the building of more houses. <BR /> <BR />Northern Ireland Water, I believe, costs taxpayers around £370 million per annum in subsidy and £450 million in capital every year. That, frankly, is the inescapable cost of owning a water company, and it is only bound to increase as we go on unless we find a different governance model and a different financial model. I look forward to the Minister's response.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is a fact as I know it, but the Minister may correct me, that the Department lends money to Northern Ireland Water and charges interest on that loan and that no other public body in Northern Ireland pays interest for a similar arrangement. The Department also takes a dividend from Northern Ireland Water, and I am informed that if you add the dividends and the interest paid to date, that is a collective sum of £1 billion that could otherwise have been invested in the water infrastructure. Investing in the water infrastructure was, of course, a commitment of the New Decade, New Approach deal. It states:”
“<BR /> <BR />Turning to the current model, perhaps it is worth discussing some of the issues that, we believe, should be addressed and overcome. The shareholder of Northern Ireland Water is the Department for Infrastructure. It has a licence to be so from the independent regulator. The Utility Regulator determines price, and it is currently price control 21 (PC21), which runs until March 2027. PC21 was based on social and environmental guidance issued by the Department after public consultation. PC21 is accepted by the Department and the Northern Ireland Executive. The Utility Regulator has advised the Department that its mid-term review of PC21, which is under way, is likely to require more, rather than less, investment.”
“We could embark on a multi-year programme to replace the highest-risk water mains and sewers alongside upgrades to waste water treatment works' capacity and regulation compliance. Environmental protection measures, such as sewer separation and sustainable drainage systems, are also imperative, as is the effective management of agricultural run-off and the implementation of environmental farming incentives. My party continues to propose considering the mutualisation of Northern Ireland Water into a member-owned cooperative model. That could provide access to lower-cost financing and capital markets, remove us from public-borrowing constraints and enable more independent governance and long-term strategic planning. Reinvestment of surpluses and increased efficiencies would be key benefits of such a model.”
“It is my impression, from speaking to them, that that was nearly a deal-breaker in the decision for that development to go ahead. <BR /> <BR />On the same theme, the Construction Employers Federation (CEF) estimates that waste water capacity constraints are holding up the building of some 8,450 homes. It believes that that equates to around £1 billion of investment. If you couple that with the proposals of housing associations and other developers, you will find that the Construction Employers Federation believes that the building of approximately 19,000 homes is, today, unable to proceed. Indeed, Northern Ireland Water accepts that over 100 areas have waste water treatment works that are at or approaching capacity. <BR /> <BR />There are, however, potential actions that we can take to address those challenges.”
“Unfortunately, however, simply adding such charges on to developers creates serious issues, particularly in housing, both private and social. The cost of funding water and waste infrastructure in new developments creates pressures on housing associations, which can mean that whole social housing projects are scrapped because the funding to meet those additional costs is simply not there. <BR /> <BR />The additional costs for new-build private and affordable housing are passed directly on to the purchaser, pricing more and more people out of being able to buy a home. I have examples of that in my constituency. There is a development in Newtownards where the developers had to fork out an additional £1 million to install the water infrastructure that was necessary to allow the houses to be built.”
“<BR /> <BR />The impact of the infrastructure deficit on housing is perhaps one of the most damaging outcomes of the historical lack of leadership and funding surrounding our water and sewerage management. It is widely accepted that we face a housing shortfall that places tens of thousands of families across Northern Ireland in crisis. It is simply the case that a growing number of planning applications going before council planning offices are approved but are then subject to agreement with Northern Ireland Water on how costs for water and waste infrastructure are to be met. <BR /> <BR />There may be those in the Chamber who feel that such costs should be passed to developers and that such a decision would alleviate pressures on our existing services.”
“We face limitations in providing new water and sewerage connections for households and commercial development. That leads to construction delays and stalled projects. In turn, that will restrict economic growth and result in missed investment opportunities, which may tarnish our reputation and make Northern Ireland less attractive for inward investment. As the First Minister recorded at Question Time just an hour or so ago, the positivity of her visit with the deputy First Minister to Washington ahead of St Patrick's Day was quite astonishing, not least from the point of view of the business community that, in America, is saying that the time is right to take a look at investing here in Northern Ireland.”
“Let us begin by acknowledging the key challenges. Our water and sewerage network is ageing, to say the least. Over a third of pipes are more than 100 years old. The result is leakage rates that exceed 25%. Underinvestment in upgrading waste water treatment facilities leaves us struggling to meet environmental compliance standards, and climate change will exacerbate those challenges, with heavy rainfall likely to overwhelm our capacity through waste water and sewage. Compounding those issues are concerns around the funding model and the affordability of water charges. Of course, political instability in recent years has not helped in strategic decision-making and investment planning. <BR /> <BR />The impacts of underfunding are profound and far-reaching.”
“That document was called 'Funding water infrastructure in Northern Ireland', and it called for a comprehensive review of alternative arrangements.”
“We are facing a crisis that requires action such as strategic investment, policy reform and changes to governance. Those are the three essential elements that we need to address. What we are calling for is, I believe, entirely consistent with the view of the Northern Ireland Audit Office (NIAO), which published a paper that called for a review.”
“I should point out that it was my party colleague John Stewart, the Ulster Unionist spokesperson on infrastructure, who was scheduled to lead on the debate, but, unfortunately, he is not here because he is unwell. I am sure that the House will join me in wishing him a speedy recovery. <BR /> <BR />I will begin with some thanks. First, I thank the Minister for coming to the Chamber to respond to the debate and, more generally, for his engagement on the issue of water management. I thank the Assembly research team for a very detailed pre-debate paper, and I also thank all the individuals and organisations that contacted us with their queries, questions and comments. <BR /> <BR />I rise to address a really pressing issue that demands urgent attention; the state of Northern Ireland's water infrastructure.”
“What is the evidence that the Ulster Unionist Party was anything other than supportive? You will remember that I was Deputy Chair when you were Chair.”
“I sense a positivity that I have not really felt before. I sense a determination to deliver that I have not felt before. I sense possibilities that I have not felt before, possibilities to truly deliver for all our people by looking at this place that we all call "home" and respecting each other's differences and identities and finding many common causes. I am happy to support the thrust of the motion.”
“My fear is that we might repeat what I consider to be mistakes from the previous mandate. We had, for example, an initiative from the Department for Communities on shared housing, but, at the same time, the Department of Education had an initiative on shared education. The problem was that, geographically, they were separate. Surely it would make much more sense if the shared housing were to surround the shared education campuses. I do think that it should be about having a son of the social investment fund, under which there was £40 million for dereliction and £40 million for deprivation. That was perceived too often to be an orange and green carve-up. We can learn from what we have done in the past and do it better in the future. <BR /> <BR />I have been here 13 years. I sense something different in the air.”
“We need to find another term for "others", because that is demeaning to the Alliance Party, given its current level of support. <BR /> <BR />On division, I reported on far too much of the Troubles as a broadcast journalist. Politicians came in to bemoan the fact that we were a divided society. The one shining example of difference was the former leader of the SDLP John Hume, who talked not about division but about diversity. He talked about diversity being a strength and part of the human condition. That is what we need to focus on in this debate and in the work that we perform in the rest of the mandate. <BR /> <BR />The proposer of the motion talked about placing a duty on each Department to look at the issue. I would be more comfortable if it were an Executive-led initiative.”
“Paragraph 3 states that there is a commitment to "partnership, equality and mutual respect". Those concepts — partnership, equality and mutual respect — acknowledge the fact that we have different identities that we cherish. This is not about everybody jumping into the equivalent of a virtual blender and coming out the human form of beige. Republicans will be republicans, nationalists will be nationalists, unionists will be unionists, and those who do not want to be labelled as such will not be labelled as such. Without getting too far up on my hobby horse, if we are having a review of the agreement, we need to define what we mean by "reconciliation". We need to find another word to replace "tolerance", which, for me, is simply about the absence of hostility. It needs to be something a bit more positive.”
“and the fact that "we must never forget" but:”
“While it is on my mind — before I forget — Carál Ní Chuilín made reference to "middle-class sectarianism", which is an important issue to be debated. I am not sure whether she has read John Hewitt's fabulous poem 'The Coasters', but, if she has, she will know that it speaks very much to her theme. I have a spare copy if she is interested. <BR /> <BR />I begin with our foundational document — the 1998 agreement — and quote paragraphs 2 and 3 of the declaration of support. Paragraph 2 talks about the "tragedies of the past" leaving:”
“We started asking governing bodies about disaggregating their spending, and they were not able to tell us. They were able to say that they spent money specifically promoting our code — Gaelic football, association football or rugby union football — in schools for women, but, with regard to where the money goes into clubs, what percentage goes to the men's game and what to the women's game, they were not able to tell us. The first step has to be to encourage Departments to start disaggregating the spend so that we understand the impact that we have, differentially, on men and women. As I said, I hope to get the support of the House before the end of the mandate to start that process.”
“Of those, 180,000 of those would be for women, but men would get 560,000 new jobs. If, on the other hand, you put that 2% of GDP into care — either social care or childcare — men would get 48,000 new jobs but the number of new jobs for women would be 1,070,000. That is a swing of nearly 900,000 depending on where you make your investment. <BR /> <BR />I hope to bring a debate to the Chamber in this mandate to start the process of gender budgeting, and by "start" I mean let us start disaggregating the data. For example, a couple of years ago, the all-party group on sport took an interest in gender budgeting after a horrendous occasion when the Connacht senior women’s rugby team had to get changed for an interprovincial match in a car park, surrounded by rubbish and rats, because there were no changing facilities for them.”
“Members will have noted that those were four men. Once again, it was a women — an outlier — who brought them on. <BR /> <BR />I would like to talk about a concept that, I think, will eventually come to apply to how we do government in this place. That concept is gender budgeting. It is a way of promoting equality through fiscal policy by analysing and disaggregating data so that we understand the impact of our spend separately on men and women and can therefore take corrective action against imbalance. There will be an update on this on the 21st of the month from the Northern Ireland Women's Budget Group, but, just to illustrate, I have some figures that are maybe four or five years old. For example, If the UK Government invested 2% of gross domestic product (GDP) in construction, they would create hundreds of thousands of new jobs.”
“A woman becoming head of a sports department in the 1970s always seemed a remarkable feat, but, given what we now know about some of the attitudes and behaviours in the BBC at that time — I think about people like Stuart Hall, Jimmy Savile and Rolf Harris — her achievement, as a woman, of reaching that position in such a testosterone-filled environment was all the more remarkable. She liked nothing more than encouraging and mentoring young talent: you might think of George Hamilton, who had a stellar career with the BBC in London and then with RTÉ in Dublin; of Alan Green, who, for a long time, was one of BBC radio's top two football commentators; of Mark Robson, who no doubt commentated on the semi-tragic events at Twickenham over the weekend; and of Jim Neilly, who has been going on for ever.”
“I am happy to say a few words on the motion. I begin by thanking the deputy First Minister for mentioning the Ulster Women's Unionist Council, which produced some fine parliamentarians, not least Dame Dehra Parker, who became the longest-serving female in the Northern Ireland Parliament and who, like Robin Swann, spent time as Minister of Health. <BR /> <BR />At the end of last week, as International Women's Day was coming up, I got nostalgic thinking about my first job and my first boss. The job was as a sports reporter with BBC Northern Ireland, and the boss was the formidable Joy Williams.”
“If the Minister will allow me a bit of a stretch from Mr Clarke's original question, what is her attitude to the proposed review of the Policing Board?”
“As party leader, at the Haass/O'Sullivan and Stormont House talks, I called for acknowledgement statements from all parties. We should all acknowledge that nobody's hands are clean; that is the only proper start to dealing with our legacy.”
“That is 12 times the number of Americans who died in Vietnam in America's worst conflict since the Second World War. <BR /> <BR />It should be noted that the police and security forces woke up every day with the intention of putting themselves in harm's way to protect society, while the Provisional IRA woke up with the intention of doing harm. It caused incredible harm, through some of the worst cases of human rights abuses imaginable: sexual crimes; child abuse; abductions; torturing and killing people and hiding their bodies — the so-called disappeared — and no-warning car bombs in our villages, towns and cities. The list goes on and on. <BR /> <BR />I note that the interim report calls for apologies. An apology does not cut it.”
“We should equally think about the lost opportunities for the living victims and survivors of the conflict; they have lost opportunities in education, employment, family life, social inclusion — the whole nine yards of adult social interaction. <BR /> <BR />It is our contention in the Ulster Unionist Party that nobody needed to die to get to where we are today, yet over 3,500 people lost their lives. It is important to put into context the loss of 3,500 lives. Like others in the House, I will be in Washington DC later this week to mark St Patrick's Day. In America, 3,000 lives were lost in a single day: the day that they call 9/11. If you were to scale up the violence here on a pro rata basis, per capita, the loss of life in America would have been 700,000.”
“I declare an interest as a member of the Policing Board, which has an ongoing interest in Operation Kenova and which will, in due course, once it has had time to properly analyse the 200-page report, seek to discuss the findings of that report with Mr Boutcher and others. That it is such a detailed report brings into focus the fact that many victims and families will never see such detailed investigation into their cases. I say that without any disrespect to those who are the subject of the investigation of Operation Kenova. <BR /> <BR />It seems that, when we deal with legacy, we focus almost exclusively on lost lives and the impact of those lost lives.”