Mike Nesbitt
Strangford · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Think public service, wisdom, generosity and courtesy. Think integrity, insight and curiosity, the lack of which is a key criticism of the two public inquiry reports of recent days.”
“I spoke during Members' statements earlier about the untimely passing of the Western Trust's chair, Dr Tom Frawley CBE. I repeat my condolences to his family, his friends and his many admirers.”
“I absolutely share the Member's ambition to see people living in the community. The trusts provide a range of evidence-informed programmes for individuals who are awaiting assessment. For children and young people, early intervention teams deliver proactive needs-led programmes that are neurodiversity-affirming and trauma-informed.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Western Trust has assured me that it has undertaken a comprehensive early engagement exercise with stakeholders, involving all political parties, local businesses, service users, community groups, the Patient and Client Council (PCC), local media, community planning partners and Departments, including mine and D…”
“The role played by social workers in delivering safeguarding and family support interventions is complex and challenging. The work frequently pivots on multidisciplinary collaboration, with parents and carers positioned as partners in the formulation and delivery of safeguarding and support plans.”
“I fully recognise the impact of the current delays on individuals and families. The situation has arisen due to a combination of factors, including funding that falls short of objectively assessed need and previously missed opportunities to reform health and social care delivery.”
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“One of my key priorities is tackling our high rate of economic inactivity. That covers people who want to be at work but cannot because there are barriers. We know what those barriers are. One is affordable, accessible childcare, but another is skills, and skills and apprenticeships go hand in glove. Therefore, I am more than happy to welcome the debate and to support the motion and the amendment.”
“If it is both and you harmonise both, you will have a definition of success and of what a good job is. <BR /> <BR />The idea of what we think about education was mentioned. I am sure that we all know schools that take pride in saying, "We have a very high percentage of sixth-formers who leave to go on to university", but is that about that school enhancing its reputation as a centre of excellence for academic study or is it about saying, "We do the best for each individual pupil"? I suggest that it is the former, not the latter, because there tends to be the thought that a university degree is good but an apprenticeship is second best. However, that is not the case, so we need cultural change on that. <BR /> <BR />At the first meeting of the Economy Committee, the Chairman asked us all to talk about our priorities and interests.”
“We had an interesting debate or the start of an interesting debate at the Economy Committee last week about the definition of the term "good job". I know that the Minister had that in his economic vision, and he might care to expand on it. We will not get to a fully agreed definition today. There are probably many definitions, but it does not have to mean high-skilled, high-paid jobs. For me, a "good job" is a job that a person takes pride in, that society values and that the employer rewards appropriately. Working in that supermarket without being one of the three people that I mentioned could make for a very good job for an individual. You might also say that a good job is one of high value, but is that high value to society/the economy or is it high value to the individual?”
“It sometimes seems that we think that only three of those jobs are worth having: general manager, finance manager and human resources manager. If the other 97 are not in play, we will not be able to put food on the table.”
“I say that because, earlier today, in the Long Gallery, I was with the Minister and other Members, as the Northern Ireland Committee, Irish Congress of Trade Unions published its document 'Democracy at Work: Social Dialogue and the Tripartite Model'. <BR /> <BR />Our view of the role of further education is, I think, a fundamental of how we view our society, what we think of education and which intelligences we cherish. We all know that there are different forms of intelligence, and it seems to me that our formal education system values the academic over everything else. If we want to breed a nation of academics, we will probably be able to publish some great intellectual papers — just before we all starve to death. I often liken it to there being a new supermarket in the area, with 100 jobs.”
“As the economy spokesperson for the Ulster Unionist Party, I am happy to support the motion and the amendment. I like the amendment for a couple of reasons: the recognition of the crucial role for further education and the call for a dedicated skills fund. The latter was a manifesto commitment of my party in 2022. We made it so after having studied similar initiatives, namely the Skills Development Scotland initiative and Skillnet in the Republic of Ireland, which are both very successful. They coordinate, organise and make sure that funding for job skills goes to the right place, and that includes apprenticeships and lifelong learning. Importantly, given the day that is in it, we also envisaged that body as a tripartite arrangement between government, business and trade unions.”
“Millions is paid out because of potholes. When you think about what you pay out in compensation to drivers whose vehicles are damaged, is there not a compelling case for invest-to-save?”
“I should have declared an interest as a governor of Movilla High School. I also declare my membership of the Policing Board. When the new police uniforms were introduced around the end of 2021 and the start of 2022, the police said that they were going to do away with the regulation that every officer needed to have a dress outfit — the formal kit for a police officer — on the basis that some of them might wear it only once or twice over the course of a long career: for example, if they were awarded a Queen's, now King's, police medal. Rather than put the onus on the officer, they were going to keep a wardrobe of dress uniforms that could be lent to officers for an occasion. That would be a sensible policy for schools to adopt on branded sportswear.”
“In that, we had young people enjoying the best start in life and everybody living longer, healthier and more active lives. The only time when it is reasonable to expect a pupil to wear branded sports gear is when they are representing the school in an external event, be it a match, a tournament or whatever. Therefore, would it not be reasonable to place the burden on the school to keep a wardrobe of branded gear for that sport?”
“I did not intend to participate in the debate, but I am enjoying it. I thank Mr Sheehan for proposing the motion. I have no doubt that his new hirsute look is just to disguise his extreme youth. <BR /> <BR />I am happy to support the motion. I have just one thought regarding branded sports gear. I imagine that we would all agree that we want children to experience as many different sports as possible. Think about the high-level outcomes of the previous draft Programme for Government.”
“does not mean that the consideration will end in saying, "Yes, we should put forward a proposal so to do". However, I accept the clarification from the Member and conclude my remarks there.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. <BR /> <BR />The point is that the line:”
“However, in your remarks, I believe, you said that the Committee would submit proposals for reform. Are you prejudging the outcome? Which is it?”
“<BR /> <BR />I sat on the Ad Hoc Committee on a Bill of Rights. We do not have a bill of rights. The Ad Hoc Committee went nowhere because we could not get agreement, and I cannot imagine for one millisecond that setting up this Ad Hoc Committee would be any more successful. The point has been made repeatedly that the role for review rests with the Assembly and Executive Review Committee, and we support that Committee's taking a look at this issue. <BR /> <BR />Finally, there is a little confusion that the leader of the Opposition might clear up. The motion says that the Ad Hoc Committee would:”
“As this is the first time that I have spoken in the Chamber outside Question Time today, I take the opportunity to wish Mr O'Toole well in his new role and wish the SDLP well as the official Opposition. It would be churlish and perverse of me, as the political leader who brought in the first post-1998 Opposition, not to wish you well. I think that an official Opposition is a step in the right direction towards normalising the politics of this place. In fairness, you have structured your first Opposition day a lot better than the first Ulster Unionist/SDLP Opposition day in 2016. <BR /> <BR />The Ulster Unionists have supported your first two motions, and it will be case of "two out of three ain't bad", I am afraid, because we do not support this one, and the reasons have already been articulated.”
“I would be grateful if the Minister could provide a more detailed update on the implementation of that workforce strategy.”
“I believe that it rests on whether payments should begin at the date of the medical assessment or the date of retirement. <BR /> <BR />I have asked for an independent review of the workings of the Northern Ireland Policing Board. I understand that that rests with the Department of Justice. Should it bring on an independent review, I simply request that it looks at whether the assessments of ill-health retirement and injury on duty should not be reverted to the Chief Constable, as is the case, as I understand it, in the rest of the United Kingdom.”
“Given the tension between those two facts — that the board is the final decision maker but cannot overturn a recommendation that has been brought to it — that position is untenable. <BR /> <BR />It also seems to me perverse that the board is involved in those processes in the first place, because its raison d'être is to hold the Police Service of Northern Ireland to account — in other words, to be a service scrutiniser — yet, with regard to ill-health retirement and injury on duty, it is a service-delivery board. <BR /> <BR />I understand that, recently, a group of retired officers have decided to launch a legal case against the board. I will not go into detail for obvious reasons, but they contend that the board is in breach of a statutory duty on the issue.”
“I declare an interest as a member of the Northern Ireland Policing Board. Every month, the resources committee is given a list of medical assessments for those officers who are seeking either retirement due to ill health or an injury on duty award. Every month, I respond that I do not have the medical qualifications, expertise or experience to make judgements. I know that I am not the only board member who takes that view; nor, indeed, is it just members of the board. In a relatively recent determination or judgement, Justice Scoffield made clear that the board was not in a position to counteract or countermand decisions of medical experts, yet he also made clear that the board is the final decision maker.”
“I thank the Minister. Does he agree that tourism did not get the showing that it deserved in the 10X strategy? I acknowledge that steps are being taken to address that. What is his assessment of the potential negative impact of the electronic travel authorisation? Would it be helpful if the North West 200 circuit took in Armagh?”
“He suffered from chronic traumatic encephalopathy, and it appears that it cost him his life. <BR /> <BR />I should acknowledge that, in 2022, when Stormont and devolution were down, Billy Bingham also passed away. Billy played in Sweden in 1958 in our first World Cup and managed the other two — Spain in 1982 and Mexico in 1986. He was the only manager ever to have straight home and away wins over the great West German team of that era. I would like to think that we will see the likes of Billy Bingham and Chris Nicholl again, but their exploits have set quite the challenge.”
“<BR /> <BR />I was lucky enough to see him play in all five of Northern Ireland's matches at the 1982 World Cup in Spain, including that famous night on 25 June when we inflicted a 1-0 defeat on the hosts in the Luis Casanova stadium in Valencia. Chris contributed more than his fair share because, inexplicably, the Spanish kept throwing high balls into the Northern Ireland box. At 6 feet 4, Chris was fit to nod them away again and again and again. After he retired as a player, he enjoyed success as a manager, including a spell at Southampton, where he mentored he likes of Matt Le Tissier and Alan Shearer. A few years ago, Shearer made a documentary called 'Alan Shearer: Dementia, Football and Me', and, sadly, Chris was one of his interviewees. He said that he was suffering from brain damage brought on by heading footballs.”
“I rise to pay tribute to and mourn the loss of Mr Chris Nicholl, who passed away on Saturday night at the age of 77. Chris, on no fewer than 51 occasions, was selected to represent the Northern Ireland senior men's football team. He became a stalwart of the early glory years of Billy Bingham's second spell as manager, beginning in 1980, when he was a regular in the team that went on to win the British Championship that year. That was a year when I was a rookie reporter/commentator on the Northern Ireland team. He was always very kind to me, although, to be fair, he never pushed himself in front of a microphone. He was content to make his contribution on the field of play.”
“<BR /> <BR />I finish by once again making the argument, and the Minister makes the same argument, that this has to be a cross-cutting initiative in a Programme for Government that is outcomes-based and accountable. In other words, it is about outcomes, and if we are not delivering the outcomes, the Executive must sit down and say, "Let us do it differently. Let us try something else. We must keep going until we get the solution that works for the people whom we are here to serve". Once again, I thank all Members, and I commend the motion to the House.”
“There is also the issue of support. Screening, training and support, especially in the youth justice system, are needed. <BR /> <BR />I thank the Minister for her contribution. She pointed out that there were pre-existing, complex and often undiagnosed needs and that we need early help and interventions, as many Members pointed out. She told us that there has been an increase from one to three therapists and then outlined the role that they play in our prisons and the progress that has been made on a multidisciplinary team. She also pointed out that it is a statutory duty of the Department of Health to provide services in the criminal justice system.”
“One ask was for a screening of everybody entering the criminal justice system, and Paula Bradshaw very thoughtfully pointed out that the Department of Health holds assessments and called for information sharing. I understand that that is a very difficult thing to achieve in the modern age, what with GDPR, but that does not mean that it is something that we should not tackle just because it is difficult. If it is the right thing to do, we should do it. <BR /> <BR />The question of training was raised, and Mr Butler spoke from lived experience. He talked about the impact on prison officers, who potentially do not understand exactly how to deal with the issue. Mr Bradley talked about the need for training to help officers understand who needs help. In fact, he called for a training needs analysis across the criminal justice system.”
“She also suggested that the problem with many children is that they are misdiagnosed and are felt to be outsiders or "problem children", when they are just children who need help. Mr Dickson thought that perhaps the problem is under-diagnosis rather than misdiagnosis of the issues, and he said that it was potentially about poverty, mental health, deprivation and substance abuse: a lot of problems that again emphasise the fact that this is a cross-cutting issue. In a similar vein, Cara Hunter talked about people from deprived backgrounds being the most likely to present with speech, language and communication issues. <BR /> <BR />I move on to the asks that came from the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists.”
“Nuala McAllister pointed out many of them, including poverty and a failure to look after the vulnerable in the best possible way, and she called for the Sure Start scheme to be expanded. She also talked about the implications of having a long wait for an audiology department appointment or an assessment for ADHD. Those are all complex issues at which we have to look. <BR /> <BR />Members also focused on youth. Mr Beattie talked the about the high percentage of young people who go into Hydebank with language issues. Patsy McGlone referred to that as well. Ciara Ferguson talked about the need for young people to grow up in a language-rich environment in which they will learn to express their issues.”
“<BR /> <BR />Mr Donnelly, talking from personal experience, also talked about early interventions and the need to embed this in the childcare strategy, which is something that we have already debated since we returned. I very much take his point. My emphasis in that debate was on the economically inactive — in other words, getting the parents back into the workplace — but Mr Donnelly referred to the other side of the coin, which is using childcare to give children the best possible start in life. That cross-cutting theme was also mentioned by Órlaithí Flynn and Maurice Bradley, who, interestingly, asked whether the motion addresses the symptoms or the underlying cause, but there are many causes.”
“If we think about the last Programme for Government, which, sadly, never made it beyond the draft stage, we might recall that one of the high-end outcomes was to give children and young people the best possible start in life. This plays exactly into that. <BR /> <BR />Stewart Dickson and Nuala McAllister said that these issues do not develop in prison. These young people who go to prison already have these problems. Therefore, we owe it to them to have a regime that is fit for purpose and will allow us to do our best for them. Mr Dickson developed the role of the Department of Health. Patsy McGlone talked about the role of education and early years, the requirement for multidisciplinary teams and the return of the Healthy Happy Minds scheme.”
“As Joanne Bunting put it, these frustrations can end up with people becoming violent. They are so frustrated about their inability to articulate what they want to say. The debate pointed out that this is a cross-cutting issue. Mr Beattie said that it is not just for the Department of Justice, it is for the Department of Health, the Department of Education, the Department for the Economy and the Department of Finance. It is an excellent example of the need for an outcomes-based, accountable Programme for Government, which is all about cross-cutting priorities. I make no apology for repeating what I said last night. That Programme for Government must move on from just looking at the inputs and outputs of what we do and focus on the outcomes. Are we actually achieving better results?”
“First, being understood, and Mr Beattie opened the debate by talking about how not being understood results in poor outcomes, frustration and not understanding what is happening to you. Joanne Dobson, who I wish well in her new role as Chair of the Justice Committee — I beg your pardon, Joanne Bunting. That is a blast from the past. I am sorry about that.”
“Every day, I was able to practice that in trying to make myself understood, trying to understand what an interviewee was saying to me — unless they were a politician, of course — and knowing that different people will react better, depending on the way that you approach them: hard cop, soft cop and that sort of thing. That is what this is about. It is scary enough for a young person, when a police officer comes knocking on their door or figuratively feels their collar, when they know why the officer is doing that, but we are talking about young people who do not necessarily even understand why the police have taken an interest in them. They do not realise that they may have broken the law and may be in serious trouble. <BR /> <BR />I listened carefully to the comments from Members and I think I have broken it down into four categories.”
“I thank every Member and the Minister for contributing to this important debate. I also thank those Members who welcomed the issue being brought to our attention. Thanks also to the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists who defined the issue in three ways: it is our ability to make ourselves understood; it is our ability to understand what is being said to us; and it is also learning how to speak to different people in the right way at the right time. <BR /> <BR />I should declare that, for most of my adult life, I was making a living as a broadcast journalist.”
“I wish the Member well as Minister. As he suggested, the relationship between the Department and Sport NI has migrated from being a management statement and financial memorandum to a partnership agreement. Given that there is now a review under way, what does that tell us about the efficacy of those new partnership arrangements?”
“I thank the Member for the intervention. I do not disagree with anything that he said. <BR /> <BR />I will finish by referencing Mr McCrossan, who was very passionate but, to my mind, very negative. I am very proud to come from this neck of the woods, this little postage stamp on the world map that some of us call "Northern Ireland" and some call "the North of Ireland". Yes, we can do better, but I believe that we will.”
“It was once put very succinctly to me by a senior officer: police officers operate defibrillators; ambulance crews do not carry handcuffs. The question is twofold. First, is that the right division of labour? We have to have that debate. If our answer is, "Yes, that is actually the best way to go about business", we must ask ourselves whether the budgets for the various agencies reflect the fact that we are asking one agency to do the work of another.”
“We ask the police to keep people safe, and we do so while the threat level is severe and while the attempted murder of DCI John Caldwell a year ago reminds officers and staff alike that they are not safe at any time. On or off duty, in the police station, on the beat, at home or in the shops: they are at risk. <BR /> <BR />We pass laws — we are quite right to do so — that place additional duties on the PSNI. For example, a Bill on stalking was passed in the previous mandate. That puts another duty on the PSNI, but do we accompany such duties with additional budget? No, we do not. We will have to think about that. Some Members made the point that the police are first responders and that they deal with a lot of medical situations.”
“It seems to me that, actually, there is one very agreeable way to increase the revenue that we raise, which is to create more highly paid jobs, yielding more income tax, more national insurance contributions and more disposable income. That would lead to people buying stuff and so to more value added tax. If they were shopping locally, there would, of course, be more corporation tax from certain companies. <BR /> <BR />The other area on which I speak is policing. I declare an interest as a member of the Policing Board. Over the past months, every week, I have heard the police talk about how the budget gap is impacting on service delivery. It is also impacting on morale.”
“It is perfectly reasonable for a key worker to look to see whether they are getting their contract renewed for the next year, and, if there is uncertainty, they may see a nice, secure job in the statutory sector and migrate there, because they have bills and mortgages to pay, cars to run and children to bring up. <BR /> <BR />I will speak briefly about the two areas on which I speak for the party. One is the economy. I welcome the Economy Minister's statement earlier, and I wish him well in trying to achieve what I believe to be the holy grail of economic development: closing the productivity gap. At some of the meetings that I attended in the build-up to the return of Stormont, much was made of how we must collectively engage in additional revenue-raising.”
“It is not only about a multi-year Budget but about a Budget that is closely aligned with the Programme for Government, and not only a Programme for Government but an outcomes-based-accountability Programme for Government that is focused on outcomes, meaning not just on the inputs and outputs of government but on delivering for our people. <BR /> <BR />I heard many Members say today, "We are failing our people". This evening, I think particularly of the community and voluntary sector, which had already suffered a huge blow with the loss of the European social fund moneys that the UK Government have not adequately replaced. The lack of certainty is now leading to a huge issue over job retention in that sector.”
“I will attempt to be brief. I first join other Members in welcoming the Minister to her position and wish her well in what will be an important and, no doubt, challenging role. <BR /> <BR />I do not feel the need to rehearse the argument about how we are processing the Budget Bill. That point has been well made by many Members. I would like us to commit to this being the last time that we do it in this way so that, the next time that a Budget comes to the House, it will be a multi-year Budget, with plenty of time for us to scrutinise it.”
“I thank the Minister for his statement and wish him well in his important role. I have studied many economic statements and policies down the years. I think that the first was Peter Viggers's pathfinder process in 1987. All identify productivity as the key, yet it remains stubbornly low. Does the Minister accept that that is the holy grail of economic policy?”
“That was Dr Harold Alexander Ennis OBE: a great man with a great mind who will be greatly missed.”
“I last saw him at Christmastime, and he was physically extremely frail, but, mentally, he was still much sharper than I can ever hope to be. <BR /> <BR />I finish by quoting from the citation from when he was awarded an honorary degree by Queen's University Belfast in 1996:”
“Harold gave back to society. He served on the InterTradeIreland board and what was then the Industrial Development Board. He was also a chair of the CBI in Northern Ireland for a couple of years, and many charities — far too many to mention — profited from his input and intellect. <BR /> <BR />Harold would have been 94 this Thursday. I do not buy into the notion that he had a good innings, because I think that the longer that somebody of that brilliance is around, the harder it can become to move on without them. I offer my condolences to his family, particularly to his children: Mark, Susan, Heather, John and Richard. Harold was always very encouraging to me when I worked in the private sector. He was kind, generous and keen to promote and mentor the next generation. Above all, he was a fantastic critical friend.”
“I believe that that is closer to £350 million in today's money.”
“By the end of the decade, it was a public company, soon to become a darling of the stock exchange and, indeed, the financial media. In 2001, 25 years after Harold began, the company was one of international renown, valued at almost £200 million.”
“On Friday morning, I received the sad and unwelcome news of the passing of Harold Ennis, who was without doubt one of the brightest and most successful businesspeople that Northern Ireland has ever seen. Harold declared his intentions early, finishing first across the whole island in his final exams for the Institute of Chartered Accountants. He then went on to become a chief executive for the first time before the age of 30 and followed that by masterminding the incredible success story that was Boxmore International. <BR /> <BR />Harold was headhunted in the mid-1970s to revive the fortunes of what was then the Lurgan Boxmaking Company Ltd, which was heading for receivership. He turned it around in rapid order. By 1983, he had orchestrated a buyout.”
“A lot of people who are economically inactive want to be active, and one of the big barriers is the lack of affordable and accessible childcare. It is not just a matter for the Minister of Education. As Mrs Dodds conceded, encouraged by Mr Butler, it is potentially for the whole Executive. I can see a role for the Economy, Communities, Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs, and Justice Ministers. <BR /> <BR />I commend the motion and the proposed amendment from Mr Butler.”