Mike Nesbitt
Strangford · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Think public service, wisdom, generosity and courtesy. Think integrity, insight and curiosity, the lack of which is a key criticism of the two public inquiry reports of recent days.”
“I spoke during Members' statements earlier about the untimely passing of the Western Trust's chair, Dr Tom Frawley CBE. I repeat my condolences to his family, his friends and his many admirers.”
“I absolutely share the Member's ambition to see people living in the community. The trusts provide a range of evidence-informed programmes for individuals who are awaiting assessment. For children and young people, early intervention teams deliver proactive needs-led programmes that are neurodiversity-affirming and trauma-informed.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Western Trust has assured me that it has undertaken a comprehensive early engagement exercise with stakeholders, involving all political parties, local businesses, service users, community groups, the Patient and Client Council (PCC), local media, community planning partners and Departments, including mine and D…”
“The role played by social workers in delivering safeguarding and family support interventions is complex and challenging. The work frequently pivots on multidisciplinary collaboration, with parents and carers positioned as partners in the formulation and delivery of safeguarding and support plans.”
“I fully recognise the impact of the current delays on individuals and families. The situation has arisen due to a combination of factors, including funding that falls short of objectively assessed need and previously missed opportunities to reform health and social care delivery.”
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“As it happens, I spoke this morning to the chair of the board of Grey Abbey Primary School, who left me in no doubt about the deep anger in the community about the failure to provide the 20 mph zone. The community will note that, to date, the Minister has committed to nothing further than assessing Grey Abbey for tranche 2. I put it to the Minister that, if process is seen to take precedence over protecting the children whom we are here to look after, that anger will not dissipate.”
“<BR /> <BR />For those who are listening to the debate who seek unionist unity and are wondering why we do not have it, the answer is very simple. Read the motion and the amendment. They are like chalk and cheese. That is why there is not and never can be unionist unity. <BR /> <BR />I support the motion. I do not support the amendment.”
“It is also about acknowledging that, as Peter Lynas of the Evangelical Alliance did on the radio this morning, the Churches have not done well on occasions. That is a big statement, coming from Peter Lynas. <BR /> <BR />Most of the parties in the House, 23 years ago, agreed on a way forward on building a society that is inclusive, respectful, builds trust and recognises diversity. In fact, more than recognising diversity, it was changing the narrative from saying that we are a divided society that needs a fix and a cure to becoming a society where we recognise and celebrate our diversity. That is why I support the motion but not the amendment. That amendment implies that our LGBTQ+ brothers and sisters need to be cured and fixed.”
“Everybody who has spoken so far agrees that there are and have been coercive practices. I simply want to put in place protections that I would want for me, my family and my friends if we were being pressurised to change against our will. <BR /> <BR />Yesterday, I listened to a member of the LGBTQ+ community talk about his experience of how he was made to feel ashamed of who he is. I have met many others who, like Carál Ní Chuilín's brother, have left this little part of Planet Earth not because they wanted to but because they felt that they had to as a result of who they are and of how we treated them. That is just wrong, and I am so sorry to hear that about your brother, Carál. <BR /> <BR />The debate is about recognising that we have not done well by our LGBTQ+ brothers and sisters.”
“The debate works on two levels. Obviously, there is the specific level, and I accept that we need to tighten up our definition of conversion therapy, but that is not something that we will do today in a private Member's motion. We will do it when we get to legislation. I note that Sinéad Ennis confirmed that the Minister is preparing to bring forward legislation, and I look forward to hearing from the Minister later. <BR /> <BR />Not only will that legislation need to define more closely conversion therapy but it will need to address the legitimate concerns of those who believe that it will have a negative impact on worship in this country. That is not what I am about in supporting the motion. I am about protecting the vulnerable and outlawing coercive practices.”
“First, as a member of the Policing Board, I condemn without reservation the attempted murder of a police officer overnight. The PSNI, I believe, found a viable device and dealt with it. Whoever was responsible has no place in our society in 2021. <BR /> <BR />I thank my colleague Mr Beattie for tabling this motion. Once again, he demonstrates what an asset he is, not only to the Assembly but to society, in his fairness, his inclusiveness and his compassion.”
“Returning to financial transactions capital, I sense that the Minister shares the frustration that the money is flowing in the wrong direction, namely, largely back to Treasury. Minister, further to your answer to Mr O'Toole, can you explain where, you think, the fault line lies? Are you promoting this only to Executive Departments, or are you proactively targeting projects in the private and the third sectors? How many successful applications are there? Why do applications fail? Is it because of a fundamental misunderstanding of the qualifying criteria?”
“Therefore, rather than just congratulating them, shall we put our money where our mouth is? Shall we say that it is our determination to find the funds and resources to let these players train and prepare as professionals for their trip to the Euro 2022 finals in England next summer? They have done us proud, and the House should reciprocate.”
“<BR /> <BR />Is that enough, or should we now focus on the sort of experience that we want those players to have in England next summer? Do we want it to be like the euphoria and success of Spain '82, or are we just going to settle for what happened in Mexico in 1986? That was more akin to saying, "Well, at least we got there. At least we qualified". I know what I would like. It is time to ask not what more we demand of that team but what we can do to help it. <BR /> <BR />Since Tuesday, I have listened to quite a few interviews with members of that squad. At the risk of being patronising, I say that they are very articulate sportspeople. What comes across is that, by and large, they are amateurs who have day jobs and train at night, getting home at 9 or 10 o'clock in the evening. Some are young mothers with families to look after.”
“We can still count on the fingers of one hand the number of times that a senior international football team has qualified for a major finals. We have been trying since 1948. It was Sweden '58, Spain '82, Mexico '86, France 2016 and now England 2022. That on its own is a significant measure of the success of the senior women's football team at Seaview last Tuesday night. Another such measure is where the team stands in the FIFA world rankings, which suggest that it had no business qualifying for England 2022. Of course, though, it has. A third might be the resilience of that team, which began the campaign with two very heavy defeats. Yet the heads did not go down. They stuck at it, they came through and they qualified. There are many good reasons to celebrate and to congratulate the team, the squad, the manager and the coaches.”
“Minister, can the grid handle 70% of energy coming from renewables? If not, what quantum of investment is required to facilitate that?”
“It was pure theatre. He roasted me. In those few short minutes, I saw so much of the prince's character: his dedication to duty, his determination to help young people to fulfil their potential, his utter intolerance and refusal to accept flattery and his wicked sense of humour. <BR /> <BR />On my behalf and on behalf of the people whom I represent in the constituency of Strangford, I send my condolences to Her Majesty The Queen and to the royal family.”
“That was him blown out of the water. <BR /> <BR />Then he turned to me, and somebody introduced me. He said, "Ah, you are the broadcaster", and I had to say, "Well, I was, sir". He said, "Really? Well, what are you doing with yourself now?". I said, "Well, I am into politics, sir". Time stopped, and he looked at me with a twinkle in his eye. He looked at me from my head down to my feet and back up again. He took a breath, shook his head, let out a sigh and left the room.”
“Suddenly, he started pointing at this man's lapel and saying, "Well, in that case, where is it then?". The poor fella had to say, "I am sorry, sir, where is what?". He said, "Your badge. Where is your Duke of Edinburgh badge?". The poor fella had not even done the bronze award.”
“The first person to whom he was introduced was a teacher who, from my memory, was in his twenty-ninth year of encouraging pupils to undertake the Duke of Edinburgh's Award. The duke was totally animated and engaged, and he wanted to know everything, such as whether the teacher was still in touch with the pupils and whether the award had helped them to develop their character and helped them in their careers. Then he turned to the second person, who was introduced as a businessman. The businessman, I am afraid, made the schoolboy error of trotting out a pre-rehearsed speech eulogising the Duke of Edinburgh and the Duke of Edinburgh's Award. As we have heard constantly since Friday, that was the last thing that Prince Philip wanted to hear.”
“I had the pleasure — I do mean pleasure — of meeting the Duke of Edinburgh on a small number of occasions, and the first was a memorable day for me. I had been asked to present the Duke of Edinburgh's Award gold awards at St James's Palace in London, and the role was to try to keep the young people amused until he arrived and then to stand back with a couple of other people while he engaged with them. He would then speak to us and leave, and I would then hand out the certificates. From the moment that he entered the room, he had those young people in the palm of his hand. There were smiles and giggles and, towards the end, a great roar of laughter as he was clearly sharing one of his racier stories with them. <BR /> <BR />Then he came over to us.”
“It is time — well past time — that we delivered.”
“Thank you Mr Speaker. I thank Mr Storey for his intervention. All that I would say to him is that, if he studies my remarks about the social investment fund over the years, he will understand that I was no fan of that programme. <BR /> <BR />However, let us look forward because there is still opportunity to address those issues. We are, after all, a coalition Government of five parties. That means that we should be a Government for all; not a Government for sections or factions, but a Government for all our people. I can think of no better way to close than to quote from the agreement, which is 23 years old this Saturday. In the "Declaration of Support", paragraph 3 states:”
“<BR /> <BR />However, I have heard another reason to explain the violence that cannot be excused: a sense of alienation in the communities where the violence is taking place. I have to ask this to the parties that brought us programmes such as the social investment fund and Together: Building a United Community (T:BUC): can you, in a civil, constructive, humble and charitable way, say that there has been a failure? Then, can we, as an Assembly and a coalition Government, come together and fix it? If you look at the league tables of areas of deprivation going back 10 and 20 years, the top 10 are still the top 10. Whatever we have done has failed to solve the problem.”
“That does not excuse the violence because nothing excuses that violence. <BR /> <BR />We come to what I have described previously as events that can be explained but cannot be excused. We should look for explanations for why this violence is occurring. I have heard many reasons: the funeral, the protocol, two-tier policing, the statement by the Public Prosecution Service, a reaction to the success of the police and the National Crime Agency against some of these organised criminal gangs. By the way, can we stop calling them paramilitary groups, please? That may describe how they are organised, but it does not reflect their intent. Their intent is to terrorise people, to exercise coercive control on communities up to and including child abuse, to intimidate and to extort. Let us think about better language to describe these groups.”
“Where have those relationships gone? <BR /> <BR />If there is any opportunity in this crisis, is it not to renew our pledge of support for the Good Friday Agreement, which will be 23 years old this weekend, and build new relationships based on mutual respect and trust-building? I heard my friend Doug Beattie on the radio this morning with my friend Matthew O'Toole. I was very struck when Doug said that he wanted to stand shoulder to shoulder with Matthew, not just to condemn the violence but to build a better society. I would like to stand shoulder to shoulder with every single Member of the Assembly to do just that, but I am held back by one party that is making it very difficult: it is the republican party opposite, because it will not apologise for something that it should not have done.”
“I speak as a Member of the Assembly and the Policing Board. I was on a Zoom call last night with some very concerned citizens. One made the point that we, as politicians, are not consistent in what we say and how we say it, rather we shape our words to our audience and the forum in which we speak. Is there not truth in that? Another person asked whether, when we are in dialogue, it is civil, constructive, humble and charitable, and he was not joking. It reminded me of the Thursdays at Ulster Television when I chaired political debates. Politicians had no difficulty tearing verbal lumps out of each other on live television but in the green room afterwards, how different it was. Over a tea, wine or beer, they asked, "Did your mum get her hip operation yet?", or, "Did your son get his grades for university?". There were relationships.”
“We were allowed nine people at the crematorium, which was fortunate because she had three children, five grandchildren and a minister there, adding up to nine. A few weeks before she died, her best friend passed away, and her beloved St Columba's Church was full to the brim with mourners. When my mother passed, we were into COVID, and the church was not even half empty; it was practically empty. She deserved better, but our glass is half full because we got a church service and we got a cremation. Those are the times that we live in and those are the conditions that we have to accept.”
“I find that extraordinary. What I wanted to read was that the PSNI wanted to facilitate funeral arrangements in a manner that upheld the regulations regarding public health while, at the same time, doing everything possible to respect the wishes of the family and be sensitive to the community. It seems to be the wrong way around. <BR /> <BR />So, the police have questions to answers, and, as Mrs Kelly said, there will be a public session with the Chief Constable at 4.00 pm. I am very much of the opinion, and have been for a very long time, that the police had advance written notice of the funeral plans; everything from the wake to Milltown to Roselawn Cemetery. <BR /> <BR />A few weeks before Mr Storey was cremated, my mother was cremated at Roselawn Cemetery, aged 93.”
“I understand that. The Member will know that there were two reasons given by the PPS for the decision to not prosecute, and one of them was the engagement by the PSNI with the event organisers ahead of the funeral. I understand that, in principle, for a major public event, it is right for the police to liaise, but the question is: what was the nature of that engagement? Again, I go to the Public Prosecution Service's nine-page report. On page 4, paragraph 16(iv) quotes from the gold strategy for the day. It says that the purpose was to:”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. I thank the Member for his intervention: he reflects a commonly held public perception. I make a distinction between the leadership of the Police Service of Northern Ireland and those who are on the ground.”
“Find me one occasion when a Member opposite has stood up during the debate and said to the Minister who is explaining the changes, "I'm so sorry, I don't understand that. Would you please explain?"”
“You cannot, if you are unclear, explain. Explain what? Regulations that you do not understand? Also, if I may, every time the regulations are changed, there is a debate in the Chamber, one that is recorded and transcribed into Hansard — the Official Report — verbatim, word for word.”
“That has implications for public confidence not just in those organisations and individuals but in organisations like the Public Prosecution Service and the Police Service of Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />Some Members have already made the point that the statement on Tuesday from the PPS was extraordinary in that it seemed to suggest that ignorance was a defence, going against the centuries-old legal maxim that ignorance is no defence in the face of the law. There are other extraordinary statements in the nine pages published by the public prosecutor. On page 9, paragraph 24, he refers to a "lack of clarity" in the regulations. I have two issues with that. If the Police Service agrees that there was a lack of clarity in the regulations, how could they deploy the policy of the four Es: engage, explain, encourage and enforce?”
“I speak as a Member of the Assembly, obviously, but I also declare membership of the Policing Board of Northern Ireland. I also acknowledge that, early in the pandemic, I transgressed the regulations. That is a matter of continuing regret. I have no difficulty in repeating my apology to the House and the broader population. It was a wrong action, and I resigned as Deputy Chair of the Committee for the Executive Office, because I felt that it was untenable to continue in that role. All I can say is that, sometimes, people do things that they can explain but cannot excuse. We are debating one such occasion. We are debating it because of a widespread public perception that there are people and organisations who are, in some sense, above the law.”
“The Minister reports that the Utility Regulator has identified the need for £2 billion of investment. What is the Minister asking for from the Executive?”
“I am grateful to Mr Sheehan for giving way. If I understood Mr Stalford correctly, he was making much of the fact that Mrs Dodds had brought forward more economic initiatives than any other Minister. Would it not be odd if another Minister were bringing forward more economic packages than the Minister for the Economy?”
“If we deny international students a grant that we give to our own, we are hardly building good international relations or enhancing our reputation. I support the motion.”
“There is a good reason why, and it is called the draft framework Programme for Government, which is currently out for consultation. One of the nine high-end outcomes is that:”
“For those who have not googled him, I really recommend that they look at some of his online videos, which explain in clear terms what we need to develop our children. He believed that there was an element inside them; I used to call it "a spark". It is a spark of intelligence. It might be academic, so a child might find it in the classroom, but they are equally likely to find it in a science lab, on a sports pitch, in the school choir or in the drama theatre. If we say to higher education university students, "We respect and value your intelligence with a financial reward" but say to students at further education colleges, "Not you", we have a problem that we really need to acknowledge. <BR /> <BR />I said that I would come back to the NUS-USI. It also asked for grants to be extended to international students, including non-EU students.”
“If anybody needs a clue, the name of that MP is in the minutes of the recently leaked DUP South Antrim constituency association meeting. I think that Mr Storey has guessed that it is the Member for East Antrim, Mr Sammy Wilson, apparently, promoting a policy that is not supported by his colleague the Minister for the Economy in the Northern Ireland Executive. However, it is to be welcomed that Mr Wilson recognises that there is an issue and that Mrs Dodds recognises the issue to the extent to which she has given grants to some but not all. <BR /> <BR />My objection is this: distinguishing between higher education and further education is a very bad look. There is an inequality there. It says something about a lack of understanding about intelligences. I am very much a fan of the late Professor Ken Robinson.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I welcome the intervention from the Member. It is the very point that I am trying to make. <BR /> <BR />I congratulate the National Union of Students - Union of Students in Ireland (NUS-USI) on a vigorous campaign on social media in support of today's debate. I will return to an ask of that student union body in a moment. <BR /> <BR />Several Members have made the point that the debate has an inbuilt capacity for repetition. I will try to avoid that by introducing some novel thoughts, not novel in the pure sense but novel in this debate. Having said that, I will repeat a quotation from a Northern Ireland Member of Parliament speaking in the House of Commons in September of last year. Some Members will immediately recognise the Member of Parliament who is speaking; others may guess.”
“I will speak in support of the motion but not the amendment. Perhaps I should begin by explaining why I feel unable to support the amendment that Mr Middleton moved. He quoted legal and contractual barriers and constraints, which, I understand, his party feels to be fair comment. However, it seems to me that, when processes trump the people whom we are here to serve, we have a problem. It is our duty as politicians to overcome that problem. Processes should enable, not constrain.”
“I understand that public procurement is worth around £3 billion per annum. Does the Minister have a figure in mind as to what the social enterprise sector should be pitching for?”
“As I understand it, the Government Actuary's Department has greatly increased its assessment of the cost of the scheme from several hundred million pounds to over £1 billion. Will the Minister explain why that is?”
“Yes, he has a central budget from the Department of Finance, but there are other one-off pots of money. For example, there is a pot of money for tackling paramilitary crime, a pot of money for legacy perhaps, and a pot of money for Brexit. It is very difficult for the Chief Constable to plan when he is relying on those smaller pots of money, albeit they are multimillion-pound pots, but he does not know whether they will come back next year and the year after and the year after. That does nothing for the headcount. <BR /> <BR />Those are really my thoughts for the day. Can we think about a prosperity agenda? Can we think about getting out of our silos? If not in this mandate, then in the next mandate, can we work collaboratively on a Programme for Government that is outcomes-based and supported by a multi-year Budget?”
“It put a statutory duty on Departments providing services for children not only to work together but to share resources and pool funds. If we are really going to deliver for our people and get best value for money from our Budget, we have to look at how Departments and agencies cooperate horizontally rather than in the vertical silos that we traditionally operate. In that way, we really will deliver for our people. <BR /> <BR />I declare that I am a member of the Northern Ireland Policing Board. I repeat my concern about police budgets and their impact on the PSNI headcount. It is well below the 7,500 that I hope that we all wish that it was. The last time that the Chief Constable was in front of the Policing Board, I was struck by his comments that one of his problems is that he has more than one budget.”
“The Minister of Education will have a role to play, as will the Minister for Communities because good housing is important to good health. DAERA will have a role to play for those living in rural areas, and Infrastructure will have a role. <BR /> <BR />My other regret is that the Budget simply allocates money to Departments and tells us how it is spent. Going into this mandate, we had decided that doing stuff was not good enough and that we had to think about this other side of the equation: what outcomes are we achieving? We had a draft Programme for Government that had an outcomes-based accountability approach whereby Departments work together, much like in the Children's Services Co-operation Act that Steven Agnew initially introduced as a private Member's Bill in 2015.”
“I will not rehearse the problems; I am well quoted on those in Hansard. We need multi-year Budgets if Robin Swann is to be allowed to implement Bengoa. It is my understanding that there is not a party or individual MLA in the House who does not support the idea of transforming how we deliver healthcare. <BR /> <BR />Once we come out of the immediate COVID crisis, Robin Swann cannot be attacked in the way that Michael McGimpsey was attacked 10 or 12 years ago when he was Health Minister. If you check what he said in Hansard, you will find that he was prophetic in predicting what would happen if he did not have the funds; he was denied those funds. If we are to transform healthcare, it will stop being simply a sickness service and a service that promotes health. It will no longer simply be the responsibility of the Minister of Health.”
“Whether you want to continue to sell Northern Ireland to the rest of the United Kingdom or you want constitutional change, surely we can come together in a common cause to say that we need to make Northern Ireland work and make it attractive. The Budget is key to that. <BR /> <BR />Like many Members, I very much support the idea of a fiscal council. I see no reason that we should be afraid of independent advice. I certainly would not claim to have the fiscal competence that others outside of the Building could bring into play. <BR /> <BR />I regret that it looks as if the mandate will end without our moving to multi-year Budgets. That move would give certainty not only to the business community, which tells us that it needs certainty, but to the community and voluntary sector.”
“Whatever your constitutional preference, remember the first rule of marketing: whatever you are selling, make it easy to buy.”
“It is a prosperity agenda. Remember that, 100 years ago, on this part of the island we were net contributors to the Treasury. We had the biggest rope-works in the world in Belfast. We had a global reputation for textiles, shipbuilding and engineering. Queen's Island was the Silicon Valley of its day. We need to raise our ambitions. We may never again be net contributors, because, since then, we have had the health service and pensions to fund. Demands have changed, but the aspiration is worth it. I remind Members who have been critical of the Treasury and the British Government that the £3 billion-plus that we have received for COVID mitigations illustrates that, financially at least, there has never been a better time for Northern Ireland to be part of the United Kingdom.”
“We have to become Mr Micawber. The famous quote, because he understood budgets, is:”
“I think that he believed that he was there to sign off on a deal, and he quickly realised that he was not. The party leaders had drawn up a document that was basically a series of asks for additional money for various projects. The Prime Minister lit on a demand for money for childcare. He asked a simple question: "What childcare issues do you have in Northern Ireland that we are not struggling with in inner London, in Birmingham, in Glasgow and in Swansea?". The answer, of course, was that there were none. We share the same issues. His implication, of course, was that we had a block grant, to be used to tackle those issues. <BR /> <BR />I would like us to switch our mentality. I will use two Dickensian quotes. We have to stop being Oliver Twist, holding out the begging bowl and saying:”
“I welcome the opportunity of this Budget debate, as with all Budget debates, to share some musings on Budgets and what they are there to achieve. I suggest that we need to reflect on the extent to which the spend improves not just the standard of living of our citizens but their quality of life and sense of well-being, the question of whether everybody wakes up in the morning knowing that they have the same chance of a successful day as the next person, with no discrimination and no inequality. <BR /> <BR />The Budget's main purpose — I believe that the Minister agrees with me on this — is to bring forward a prosperity agenda. One of the low points of my time as a party leader was the day that David Cameron, as Prime Minister, flew in to Stormont House.”