Mike Nesbitt
Strangford · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Think public service, wisdom, generosity and courtesy. Think integrity, insight and curiosity, the lack of which is a key criticism of the two public inquiry reports of recent days.”
“I spoke during Members' statements earlier about the untimely passing of the Western Trust's chair, Dr Tom Frawley CBE. I repeat my condolences to his family, his friends and his many admirers.”
“I absolutely share the Member's ambition to see people living in the community. The trusts provide a range of evidence-informed programmes for individuals who are awaiting assessment. For children and young people, early intervention teams deliver proactive needs-led programmes that are neurodiversity-affirming and trauma-informed.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Western Trust has assured me that it has undertaken a comprehensive early engagement exercise with stakeholders, involving all political parties, local businesses, service users, community groups, the Patient and Client Council (PCC), local media, community planning partners and Departments, including mine and D…”
“The role played by social workers in delivering safeguarding and family support interventions is complex and challenging. The work frequently pivots on multidisciplinary collaboration, with parents and carers positioned as partners in the formulation and delivery of safeguarding and support plans.”
“I fully recognise the impact of the current delays on individuals and families. The situation has arisen due to a combination of factors, including funding that falls short of objectively assessed need and previously missed opportunities to reform health and social care delivery.”
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“This year, 2022, is the fifteenth year in a row that they have been given the role of leading from the Executive table in Stormont Castle. It is timely to remember that our system of government is consociational: in other words and to put it crudely, once the election is over and the votes have been counted, all parties that take their place at that table cease to be rivals and should become partners, partners in delivery for our schools, businesses and hospitals and for our people.”
“I declare an interest as chair of the board of governors at Movilla High School in Newtownards. The issue at Movilla today is not ventilation but heating. If any Member knows anything about central heating boilers, there is a free school dinner in it for them. <BR /> <BR />Like you, Mr Speaker, I am conscious that members of the public may be tuned into the debate. We should not feed the narrative that we are all wasters and that devolution is useless. That is not to say that we should not scrutinise the Department. There are valid questions: is there a plan, is it appropriate, and is it being delivered in a timely manner? I look forward to the Minister's remarks. <BR /> <BR />If the proverbial man or woman from Mars had just arrived and was watching the debate, would he or she twig that the DUP and Sinn Féin are partners?”
“I will go back to the travel agent scheme. Can the Minister confirm that the original scheme was predicated on a return to normality by last spring and that, as we are not there, the logic is that support is due again?”
“Let me start as positively as possible. I welcome the achievement of a multi-year draft Budget. I welcome the commitment to the health service, and I welcome the £44 million-plus to the Police Service of Northern Ireland for staffing. I declare an interest as a member of the Policing Board. However, the police have told me that, over the three-year period, to achieve the NDNA commitment to have 7,500 officers, the cost would be £74·6 million, which is £30·2 million less than is being allocated in your additional funding. Therefore, the questions to the Minister are these: have you had any discussions about the implications for the headcount of the PSNI, and do you know how many additional officers the £44·4 million that you are allocating will achieve?”
“The Member for Strangford talked about individuals such as Professor Pantridge, who invented the portable defibrillator, and the three universities — Ulster University, Queen's University and the Open University — were mentioned. What about Catalyst in Titanic Quarter? Is it the small, innovative, progressive companies that he sees tapping into ARIA? <BR /> <BR />My third question is about partnerships. Is it a question of there being the potential for partnerships, will ARIA actively seek partnerships, or are partnerships not necessary for a successful application to ARIA? <BR /> <BR />Those are my three concerns and my three questions to the Minister. I will leave it at that. My colleague Dr Aiken will have more to say in a minute or two.”
“I note that he quantified the budget of £800 million and that he gave some global examples of the sort of breakthrough developments that ARIA might hope to match or replicate in the coming years. What I did not hear is how it fits in with the Northern Ireland economy, however, and I hope that he will address that in his closing remarks. <BR /> <BR />I have only three questions for the Minister. First, can he confirm, on the record, that there is no Barnett consequential? Is this totally a highly competitive programme of money? Will we have to fight tooth and nail to secure any of that money? <BR /> <BR />My second question is this: who does he think will avail themselves of that money?”
“It is a pleasure to follow Mr O'Toole, who also worked for the Government in London before leaving to blog and tweet, albeit with considerably less venom than Mr Cummings. <BR /> <BR />The Ulster Unionist Party will support the legislative consent motion. Like others, we express a little regret that the process was not perfect, although it got us to this point. I feel particularly disadvantaged in that I was unable to attend the briefing at last Wednesday's Committee meeting. I was out of the country at the time, so it was my fault. I was in the United States, where the high-risk, high-reward idea is part of the economic culture. That is a cultural norm in America, and it is to be welcomed that we will embrace that culture through the ARIA programme. <BR /> <BR />I listened very carefully to the Minister's introductory remarks.”
“Given that the Economy Minister is, bizarrely, handing back £41 million, despite the fact that travel agents are on their knees and the "Stay at home" holiday scheme has been cancelled, can the Minister think of a better way in which to reallocate the money than through an emergency fuel poverty scheme?”
“The Minister will be aware that some key installations, not least power stations, have reserves of red diesel in case of emergency. Has the Minister secured an exemption for those installations?”
“Has the Minister factored the national living wage into future departmental spending? If so, what is the impact?”
“I thank the Minister for her statement. I give an unconditional welcome to the unequivocal nature of the statement and the commitment that, finally, the victims and survivors of mother-and-baby homes and Magdalene laundries will join the victims and survivors of historical institutional abuse in gaining redress. There is, however, a third group: the victims and survivors who were abused in non-institutional settings. Some of them may be watching this today in hope rather than expectation. What can the deputy First Minister say to that group of victims?”
“I join the deputy First Minister in condemning the attacks on buses in Rathcoole and Newtownards. Will she join me in condemning the EU official who was quoted as saying that they are:”
“I thank the Minister for coming to the Chamber with his statement. It reminds me, however, of the famous quote from Shakespeare's 'Hamlet': the man "doth protest too much". <BR /> <BR />Regarding the practicalities of the scheme, Minister, I was told that it would be over before people started spending for Christmas, but that is not the case. I was told that it would be additional to Christmas spend, but you are now encouraging it to be used for Christmas spend. You told me that nobody had told you that they would use it to buy a £100 Amazon voucher, but they are doing just that. The Committee was told that the overspend margin was £2 million to £3 million, yet you are holding £21 million in reserve. Why do you continue to argue that the scheme is well run and is delivering on its policy intents?”
“<BR /> <BR />While I absolutely support the Minister if she is moving to address the social housing crisis, I ask that she does it not in isolation, but encourages her Executive colleagues to think about the impact of gender budgeting and, perhaps, the need to balance the investment in construction with investment in something like social care, so that the gender budgeting implications are addressed and there is fair distribution of job creation between men and women.”
“I absolutely agree with him. However, the thought that I had was of gender budgeting. I do not have the figures in front of me, but it has been clearly established that if you spend, say, 1% of your GDP on construction, the vast majority of the jobs that you create will be for men. Conversely, if you put that 1% of GDP into social care, the vast majority of jobs that you create will be for women.”
“I had not intended to speak in the debate, so this will probably be more of a long intervention than a five-minute speech. I was just provoked by something that Mr Frew said. Before I get to it, however, I endorse what my colleague Andy Allen said and absolutely support the motion. There is a crisis in social housing, and we need to act on it. What I do not get is the bedroom tax and social sizing. If you are building a house, you need a kitchen, living space, a bathroom and a bedroom. It seems to me that a second bedroom is not a big spend. It does not require a great percentage to put on a second bedroom, but it adds huge flexibility to how the social housing can be used over the course of its lifetime. <BR /> <BR />The point that I want to make is that Mr Frew said something interesting, which was that we should invest in construction.”
“I thank the Minister for that answer. Has she given any consideration to the implications for the Public Prosecution Service should the Stormont House legacy proposals go ahead, particularly the proposal for a Historical Investigations Unit (HIU)?”
“<BR /> <BR />We also had a very short debate about whether Russia is communist or capitalist. In my last 30 seconds, I could start a debate about whether Sinn Féin is Ourselves Alone any more, given that it wants Westminster to intervene. Mr Boylan and Mr O'Dowd said that Westminster has to intervene and that it is down to Westminster. Whatever you do, Mr O'Dowd, do not take your seat and make that point in the House of Commons.”
“I acknowledge that the Minister, without saying that she would work toward the means-tested winter energy emergency fund that we are calling for, has said that she wants to work with colleagues in the Executive and beyond, including councils and community and voluntary sector groups, and I very much welcome that. <BR /> <BR />Mr Carroll said that the figure of 42% of households in fuel poverty will rise, and he launched the expected attack on the profits of the energy companies, but here is a question that we have not addressed in the debate: what if one of those energy companies goes bust? What happens to people who rely on an energy company to heat their home? That has happened in GB. Do we have the resilience to look after them if it happens here?”
“We do not have tidal energy, but Kellie Armstrong will agree with me, as a Member for Strangford, that SeaGen was a global first in generating tidal energy, and it generated a lot more than predicted with none of the downsides. Why does it seem that we have come to a full stop on tidal energy? Mr Storey made the point that sometimes environmentalists object when we bring forward green energy schemes. <BR /> <BR />We have called for the Minister for the Economy, the Minister for Communities and the Minister of Finance to work together.”
“The National Health Service, which we acknowledge daily in the Chamber, is strained to near breaking point. Nicola Brogan and Andy Allen mentioned insulation, and the Minister has confirmed that she will bid for the £14 million fund that Andy Allen mentioned. Rachel Woods also talked about the need to bring forward a passive homes scheme. <BR /> <BR />The impact is not just on homes; there will an impact on our public services, as Kellie Armstrong mentioned. Schools need to be heated and hospitals need energy, and the costs will go up for them as much as they will for everybody else. We talked about renewable energy and wind power, and Mr Frew was one of the Members who made the point that the wind did not blow as hard as we wanted it to blow this calendar year.”
“Stewart Dickson said that no one should be forced to choose between heating and eating, and Cathal Boylan mentioned low-income families. <BR /> <BR />Nicola Brogan talked about childcare and the increase in National Insurance as being part of a perfect — or, as the Minister described it, imperfect — storm in which energy costs, the loss of the £20 a week uplift in universal credit, the end of furlough and the prospect of a particularly cold winter are impacting on people. A perfect — or, as Ms Hargey said, imperfect — storm is coming our way. <BR /> <BR />Other impacts were referenced by Members. Nicola Brogan, speaking as her party's spokesperson on children and young people, said that under-heated homes impact negatively on the physical health of young people to the point at which they have to engage with the National Health Service.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. I agree with him, I think that the Utility Regulator agrees with him, and it is also a point made by other Members, including Rachel Woods. The Utility Regulator is looking to us but is also suggesting to those in fuel poverty that there are other agencies, including Advice NI, Christians Against Poverty, the Money and Pensions Service, to turn to, no doubt in desperation, when looking for help. <BR /> <BR />When I look at some of the main themes, the biggest one was probably that horrible dilemma of whether you heat or eat. Mr Aiken mentioned that in opening the debate, as did Mr Durkan, who backed it up with some decent statistics on fuel poverty. Mr Durkan also referenced the lack here of the £140 warm home discount scheme that applies in England, Scotland and Wales.”
“A few weeks ago, the Utility Regulator came to the Economy Committee and said that things were dire. At the beginning of October, Firmus Energy, which does the ten towns, got a 35% increase in its tariff. It wants another 40% on top of that before the end of the calendar year. Since then, the Utility Regulator has revised that predicted increase to 50% and the one for Power NI customers from 16% to 20%.”
“That had never crossed my mind, and she was desperately worried that she could not afford it. We would describe her as being middle class and not vulnerable, but, because of her husband's medical condition, she was incredibly vulnerable. That happened in normal times for energy prices when an increase might have been 2% or 3%.”
“I will not say where, but let us say that there was a small group of detached homes with two cars in each drive. As I walked into that area, I did not think that I would encounter vulnerable people as such. However, a woman who opened her door was highly distressed. She had just given up work to look after her husband, who had gone through a serious operation for cancer. What she had to do that really worried her was to heat the home two or three degrees more than normal, because he needed that additional heat to recover from the operation.”
“A citizens' assembly would not necessarily be second-guessing what we do in here; it would be doing something different and potentially very helpful. <BR /> <BR />We need an energy policy, and I know that we are promised one before the end of the calendar year. That is one leg of the three-legged stool approach. You need policy; appropriate, effective planning; and a good grid for transmission and distribution. In fact, it is more than a grid, is it not? If we go for the likes of hydrogen energy, we need storage, and we need battery storage for wind and tidal power. Those things go together. You need battery storage and a grid for transmission and distribution, as well as planning and policy. <BR /> <BR />Before I arrived up here, something else surprised me on my first canvass to get elected. I was in Newtownards.”
“How could you have a devolved Administration without an energy strategy? That point, of course, has been made by many Members, including Mr Dickson and, perhaps most significantly, Mr Frew, who said that it is a "life and death" strategy. I have to say to Mr Frew that I got very excited, in a platonic way, when he became the Minister for the Economy, because I thought, "Here's a man who really understands. Here is a Member who's going to do great things in terms of our economy strategy", which we still await. <BR /> <BR />I acknowledge Kellie Armstrong saying that that is the sort of thing that you might put to a citizens' assembly. In principle, I agree, because we, naturally enough, work in the here and now of a five-year mandate, whereas energy and transport are issues that we need to look at over a 20-, 25- or even 50-year period.”
“I begin by thanking the Minister for making herself available to listen to the contributions and for responding with a highly factual set of remarks. As for her call to support a specific housing outcome in a Programme for Government, I will not do policy on the hoof. We have heard calls for specific outcomes for young people and older people. Given the way in which the draft Programme for Government for this mandate was drafted, to go down that route would be a reasonably radical change, so it needs some thought. <BR /> <BR />I also thank all the contributors to the debate. Before I touch on the themes, I would like to step back 10 years to when I first got elected here to "Château Despair". I was asked to serve on the Economy Committee, and one of the first things that surprised me was the fact that there was no energy strategy.”
“What is your character? What is your attitude to getting up in the morning and going to work? If we are going to teach skills, we have to encourage that as well.”
“Yet, if you speak to business leaders in Dublin, they say, "Do not worry about goods. That is not where our wealth or our value comes from. It comes from intellectual property, patents and innovation". Skills are clearly at the heart of that, and I could list a series of areas where the knowledge economy is important. <BR /> <BR />The Member who moved the motion quoted some stats from the CBI: I want to do that too, from a survey that the CBI did some time ago of the most important factors that employers considered in recruiting school- and college-age leavers. Academic results came fourth at 30%; qualifications third at 38%; literacy and numeracy were important; but the most important thing was aptitude towards work and character.”
“If we can manufacture a pipeline of talented and educated young people, that is our best hope of success. We need to recognise that doing the same thing time and time again is not enough. The economy has changed over the last couple of decades. Businesses are created, run and developed in a different way. We are all now used to the idea of clustering, where companies work in partnership and cooperation, in workspaces that are shared and where ideas are equally shared. <BR /> <BR />The interesting thing for me, when I engage with business leaders across the border in the Republic of Ireland, is that they no longer put a great deal of emphasis on goods. That is interesting because we debate, almost on a daily basis, the movement of goods and the impact on it of the Ireland/Northern Ireland protocol.”
“I remember Mark Friedman coming to the Building and the enthusiasm around the idea of stopping focusing on doing things and putting our emphasis on outputs and outcomes: what are we achieving by our efforts and with our resources and budgets? We get out of these vertical silos, and yet we still make calls on Ministers. <BR /> <BR />Skills are important. When I saw the motion, I was reminded of a document that the Ulster Unionist Party published in March 2016, five and a half years ago, about the knowledge economy. We recognised that our great success industrially 100 years ago was based on the talents and ingenuity of our people. Queen's Island was, if you like, the Silicon Valley of its day. Today, still, it is human capital that is our greatest asset.”
“I will tell you what my problem is. Is this about going into election mode? I read a motion that has the DUP pointing a finger at the Finance Minister with an ask, and then I read an amendment from the other side of the House in which Sinn Féin makes an ask back across the Floor of the Chamber at the Minister for the Economy. What happened to consociational government? What happened to the idea that, once the election is over and the votes are counted, we stop being rivals and start being partners? I see no great sign of it here. What of our commitment in what is, sadly, still a draft Programme for Government to change to outcome-based accountability government?”
“I am no fan of Brexit — you know that, Mr O'Dowd — but there you are. Perhaps there is more choice and resource available to students because of it.”
“I suppose it would be strange, to the point of being perverse, if the Ulster Unionist Party were not to support a motion that puts a focus on resource and funding for the skills of our people. I therefore expect that we will support the motion. I am not so sure about the amendment. I have not heard anything yet that encourages me. Mr O'Dowd mentioned Brexit and ERASMUS, but it is my understanding that local students can still access ERASMUS, courtesy of the Government of Ireland, while also having the opportunity to access the new Turing scheme, courtesy of the Government of the United Kingdom.”
“I note a reduced requirement of £10 million with regard to the PSNI training college. What are the implications if or, more likely, when the PSNI identifies land that it wants to purchase for the college in the next financial year? I declare an interest as a member of the Policing Board.”
“They should help them by creating a truly peaceful, prosperous society that the people who wanted to catch that bus this morning aspire to. I say to the perpetrators: your time is over. Time to go. I say to anybody who knows who carried out that attack that it is time to get that information to the police. You can do it anonymously and without fear for your own safety, but it is important that these people are stopped and brought to book. It is time for an end to this mindless, perverse thinking.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am told that the attack may have been motivated in some sense by the Ireland/Northern Ireland protocol. If that is the thinking, it is perverse. The protocol is about politics. Some in the House may say that it is good politics, and others will agree with me that it is bad politics, but it is politics, and politics is about talking, negotiating and building relationships. You cannot build a relationship with somebody wearing a balaclava and carrying a handgun. I repeat: if that is the thinking, it is perverse. <BR /> <BR />I am not naive. I have represented Newtownards for some 10 years, and I understand that a variety of terrorist organisations still have a presence in the town. It is high time that they quit and high time that they used their energy and commitment to help their communities, not hinder them.”
“At 6.30 am today, two armed and masked men hijacked a bus in Newtownards and set it alight. I invite the Chamber to join me in sending a message to the perpetrators: you have no legitimacy and you had no authority to do what you did. <BR /> <BR />What you did was damage your own community. There is a reason that that bus was on the road at 6.30 am. It was because of law-abiding, hard-working people seeking transport from A to B, from their homes to their place of work, and they were denied that opportunity by these terrorists. I think of that community this morning, and I also think of the driver, because, for all I know, that driver will wake up every day for the rest of his life having to confront and cope with the sights and sounds that greeted him at 6.30 am on Monday 1 November 2021.”
“Will the Minister confirm that his officials with responsibility for other recipients of the payment, including primary care, pharmacy, dental and ophthalmology workers, are fully linked in and working to deliver the payment ASAP?”
“I hear that in stereo, thank you very much, Mr Speaker. <BR /> <BR />The ombudsman was unable to answer me in any effective way about what would happen to that police officer who deployed a spit and bite guard under those exact circumstances. To me, it illustrates that there is a significant difference between theoretical policing, which, it seems to me, is what the ombudsman practises at times, and practical policing, which is what we ask the 7,100 officers of the Police Service of Northern Ireland to conduct on our behalf to keep us safe and to keep order in society. <BR /> <BR />On that basis, an independent review seems reasonable to me. The Ulster Unionist Party will support the motion.”
“What happens to the officer who has made a decision in the heat of the moment? <BR /> <BR />There are a lot of issues. I am running out of time — no, I have an extra minute.”
“I thank Mr Chambers. I certainly see the logic of that, and it is worth looking at. People with other skills, such as management or governance, can add something to the mix, but, if we are talking about making the police accountable, a knowledge of policing is highly desirable. <BR /> <BR />Mrs Kelly talked about a recent example of the ombudsman's views, which is to oppose the use of spit and bite guards with people under the age of 18. I put the point to the ombudsman: what if a police officer comes across somebody who is 6 feet 4 inches, 14 stone, a very fit Gaelic or rugby union footballer, and is 17 years and 11 months old? The police officer may make a reasonable assumption that they will use a spit and bite guard. However, that young person, who is 17 years and 11 months, could go to the ombudsman.”
“Just let me finish this. The Chief Constable, of course, whatever he is, comes with a background in policing. That is an imbalance that we need to consider. I give way to Mr Chambers.”
“<BR /> <BR />To date, we have had four ombudsmen: from 1999 to 2007, it was Nuala O'Loan; from 2007 to 2011, it was Al Hutchinson; from 2012 to 2019, it was Michael Maguire; and since then it has been Marie Anderson. They are four very different characters who brought a mix of experience from a variety of backgrounds. I first became aware of Nuala O'Loan as a law lecturer. Al Hutchinson, of course, had experience in policing from Canada. Michael Maguire was a public servant and a specialist in management consultancy. Marie Anderson came to the job from her role as the Public Services Ombudsman. They all brought very different approaches, backgrounds and perhaps even value systems.”
“Everybody in the House has to acknowledge that the PSNI is one of the most accountable police forces and services in Western Europe and possibly much further afield. <BR /> <BR />It is simply a fact that, just as the Chief Constable has immense scope to shape the operational nature of the PSNI, so the Police Ombudsman has the power to set a direction of travel for their office. The difference, of course, is that, while the Chief Constable is accountable to the Policing Board, the same does not apply to the ombudsman. I stress that the Chief Constable is operationally independent but fully accountable to the board for his or her decisions.”
“It believes that the PSNI is probably at its best when it has the resource, the headcount and the leadership commitment to neighbourhood policing, in which officers are known, trusted and respected by the local community that they serve and protect. We in the party think that that is the most effective and efficient way of delivering policing. It is important, however, that the officers are accountable to those communities and that the communities understand that there is an accountability mechanism for when things go wrong, as they inevitably do. That is why we support the Northern Ireland Policing Board and the principle of an Office of the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland.”
“I declare an interest as a member of the Northern Ireland Policing Board. <BR /> <BR />Some Members expressed regret about the fact that we are having this debate. My regret is about some of the tone and content of the remarks to date. It is easy — you might even say that it is quite lazy — to attack the debate on the basis that it is political unionism getting excited, as if every unionist always thinks the same way on any given subject. That is palpably and clearly not true. If we are going to talk about rights, do we have to do it in a whataboutery way in which we say, "What about my rights, never mind your rights?"? <BR /> <BR />The Ulster Unionist Party is a party of law and order, with no ifs and buts.”
“The original question was about concerns regarding the increased costs of raw materials and labour. Does the Minister have any concerns about the availability of appropriate raw materials and suitably skilled labour?”