Mike Nesbitt
Strangford · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Think public service, wisdom, generosity and courtesy. Think integrity, insight and curiosity, the lack of which is a key criticism of the two public inquiry reports of recent days.”
“I spoke during Members' statements earlier about the untimely passing of the Western Trust's chair, Dr Tom Frawley CBE. I repeat my condolences to his family, his friends and his many admirers.”
“I absolutely share the Member's ambition to see people living in the community. The trusts provide a range of evidence-informed programmes for individuals who are awaiting assessment. For children and young people, early intervention teams deliver proactive needs-led programmes that are neurodiversity-affirming and trauma-informed.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Western Trust has assured me that it has undertaken a comprehensive early engagement exercise with stakeholders, involving all political parties, local businesses, service users, community groups, the Patient and Client Council (PCC), local media, community planning partners and Departments, including mine and D…”
“The role played by social workers in delivering safeguarding and family support interventions is complex and challenging. The work frequently pivots on multidisciplinary collaboration, with parents and carers positioned as partners in the formulation and delivery of safeguarding and support plans.”
“I fully recognise the impact of the current delays on individuals and families. The situation has arisen due to a combination of factors, including funding that falls short of objectively assessed need and previously missed opportunities to reform health and social care delivery.”
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“I thank the Minister for that assurance. However, in the body of the report, with regard to a previous iteration of the fund — it is the fourth iteration that has been cancelled — it states:”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I believe that, during an otherwise very welcome and harmonious debate yesterday evening to mark International Women's Day, Assembly Member Wells may have misled the House. In an intervention during a speech by Kellie Armstrong, he claimed that, some 20 years ago, Patricia Lewsley successfully introduced a private Member's Bill to the House. It is my understanding that it was her intention to introduce a private Member's Bill, but she was thwarted by the fact that the House was suspended in 2002. I would be grateful if you would examine the case to determine which narrative is accurate.”
“It was mid-November when I mentioned the plan to the First Minister and deputy First Minister in the House, and I still await their response. I hope that it is a positive one, because that would be a fitting mark for International Women's Day.”
“It might be because of me, but I wonder to what extent it is about the reputation of the House and how they feel about it. Some really capable females, when they thought about it — they did not think about it for that long — said that they did not want to do it. We all need to reflect on that. <BR /> <BR />Briefly, I want to go on a tangent, but it is an important one. Another person whom I brought in — he was co-opted — was Andy Allen, and we should focus on the fact that we need to be more representative of people with disabilities. When Andy first came here, he was in a wheelchair and he could not vote without somebody helping because there were steps and no appropriate ramp in the Division Lobby. I would love us to think about those issues as well. <BR /> <BR />My final thought is on the COVID feminist recovery plan.”
“<BR /> <BR />I pay tribute to three councillor colleagues from Armagh City, Banbridge and Craigavon Borough Council who have given a modern twist to the Parker programme: Julie Flaherty, Louise McKinstry and Jill MacAuley, who have run a social media campaign called "We need you, girl". Last week, they had a major Zoom conference with a significant number of females engaging and expressing an interest in finding out more about becoming an elected representative. <BR /> <BR />During my five years as leader of the party, I found the easiest thing to do when trying to encourage people to come in was to identify whom I wanted — people such as Steve Aiken and Doug Beattie — speak to them directly and encourage them. When I went to potential female candidates, not one came back positively.”
“I acknowledge the Member's intervention. I am not sure how relevant it is to the debate. However, I will say this to the Member: in 2017, Mrs Dobson had a larger share of the constituency than she had in 2016 and had more first-preference votes to go for. She got elected in 2016. The fact that she did not get elected in 2017 does not reflect that she had votes taken away from her: she had a larger share of the constituency. <BR /> <BR />As I said, Dame Dehra Parker was the first woman to be elected, in 1921. She also had the distinction of becoming the first female to hold a Cabinet position, when she was made Minister of Health and Local Government in 1949.”
“One of my deepest regrets on the day on which I gave up the leadership of the party — the day of the 2017 election results — was that we were saying goodbye to Jo-Anne Dobson and Sandra Overend. Sandra was the person who did most to encourage female membership of the Ulster Unionist Party at that time. She encouraged females to think about standing for election through the Dame Dehra Parker programme. I am sure that some of you will know —.”
“I have been to Africa twice as an associate trainer with the Westminster Foundation for Democracy (WFD) and have worked in Sudan and Ethiopia with aspiring female politicians. It seems to me that there is a commonality between what holds them back and what holds people back from coming into this Chamber. It is largely a fear of the unknown. To some extent, it is a fear of misogyny, bullying and intimidation by men. It is also a fear of the impact on their work-life balance. Practical issues such as the absence of a crèche and working through late-night debates are all factors that need to be considered. <BR /> <BR />At that point, I have to address the imbalance in the MLA group of the Ulster Unionist Party. We do not even get over 30%, as you will all know.”
“I will not dare go one millisecond over my time, Mr Speaker. <BR /> <BR />On behalf of my party, I support the motion, thank its sponsors and wish everybody a happy International Women's Day. I speak partly as deputy chair of the all-party group on UNSCR 1325: women, peace and security, and I thank the chair for her kind words. Behind the catchy title of that APG, there is great work going on. Jonna Monaghan and Liz Law of the Northern Ireland Women's European Platform (NIWEP) do great work with us. Rachel Powell of the Women's Policy Group (WPG) has brought forward the COVID-19 feminist recovery plan, which focuses on the gender pay gap and the disproportionate impact that the COVID pandemic has had on women. <BR /> <BR />I also speak with a little bit of international experience.”
“The deputy First Minister referred to the impact of the pandemic on women. However, on 16 November 2020, I asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for their reaction to the Women's Policy Group's feminist COVID recovery plan. That was more than three months ago. I have heard nothing.”
“In the name of God, can we not start operating it? <BR /> <BR />Thursday will be the forty-ninth anniversary of the last time that Jennifer McNern went for a walk. She had the misfortune to choose to walk to the Abercorn bar to have a drink with her sister. She lost her legs and has been in a wheelchair for 49 years, waiting for this payment. She took us to the High Court to get a judge to tell us to get on with it. Please, Minister, please: get on with it. I will leave it there.”
“Before she went for her compensation, she explained to her legal representative that she was very nervous because she had never engaged with the criminal justice system. He said, "Look, don't worry about it. That's why I'm here". As they went into the office, he said, "Just one thing. At some point, somebody will put a bit of paper on the table. I want you to ignore it because that is the initial offer. It's all part of a game, and it'll be ridiculously low". The woman went in and answered questions, and then the judge invited her to take off her dress — he invited her to take off her dress — despite the fact that he had no medical qualifications and had a medical file in front of him. She was so humiliated that she lifted that bit of paper and settled. That is why we have a payment scheme for the severely, permanently disabled.”
“He told me that he felt no ill will towards the soldier, which I thought was remarkably generous. He said, "He was a young fella, scared and a long way from home. He just lost it". The person with whom he was angry was the judge who awarded him the compensation, because, despite having no medical qualifications and the fact that there was a very thick medical file in front of him, the judge told this man to drop his trousers so that he could verify the injuries for himself. <BR /> <BR />A few years after the Omagh bomb, when I told that story in Omagh, I could see that a woman was getting visibly upset. When the meeting was over, everybody was having a cup of tea, and she came back into the room. She explained that she had been badly injured in the Omagh bomb and had physical scars.”
“On the bus, the man sitting beside this man was killed. He himself suffered severe injuries in and around his groin, which led to multiple medical processes and operations.”
“He was dead within the hour, murdered at his workplace. Skip forward to the point where that young woman is going for compensation. She made a terrible mistake, a natural mistake. She got dressed, did her make-up and made herself look as well as she could; in her own words, "I got myself all dolled up". The judge looked at her, told her that she was a fine-looking young woman and would have no difficulty in getting another husband and adjusted her compensation accordingly. That is how we treated her. <BR /> <BR />Let us go up to the north-west. A lovely man from Derry — he calls it Derry so, out of respect to him, I will call it Derry — is on a bus one day going down the Strand Road. As he put it, "A young soldier in the sangar went berserk". The soldier discharged the entire magazine of his rifle.”
“I understand that, for politicians, it is important to have a debate about the pot of money from which those payments come, but let us look at it from the point of view of victims and survivors. Whatever pot of money it comes from, it is the public purse. Victims and survivors have been told in law that the payment is theirs. They deserve it. <BR /> <BR />I invite Members to think about the issue from the point of view of victims and survivors. Take yourself back to the early 1970s. Every day, the Troubles are at their most vicious. A young wife, pregnant with her second child, is changing her first child's nappy, when her husband comes in to say goodbye because he is going to work. She is so busy changing the nappy that he kisses her on the top of her head and says, "I'll see you later, love". He never saw her again.”
“Frankly, that cannot be done if the numbers drop so far below the 7,500 that Mr Patten recommended. He also said that there should be a part-time reserve of 2,500 so that, at any given time, the Chief Constable should be able to deploy up to 10,000 officers. He is well short of that. <BR /> <BR />My second point — I have only three — is about payments to victims and survivors of the conflict who are suffering severe permanent disability. It took those people years, but they have won the argument. Those payments are in statute. We have not just a moral obligation but a legal obligation to pay them. Yet, we have not made payments because of an ongoing and deeply unedifying squabble about which pot of money they come out of.”
“Mr O'Toole says that we use Budget debates to rehearse our pet loves, pet hates or pet projects, but I will resist the temptation not to do the same again. <BR /> <BR />I will start by repeating what I said this morning in an intervention on Mr Frew: police numbers are close to crisis. On 8 February, the number was 7,005. The Chief Constable warned that he may need to shed 300 officers because of a budget deficit. That would leave him a net 800 below the 7,500 in 'New Decade, New Approach' and in Chris Patten's recommendations, published all those years ago in September 1999 when he chaired the Independent Commission on Policing. I draw the attention of the House to recommendation 44, because this is the impact of losing 500 or 800 officers:”
“I thank the Chair of the Committee for giving way. As he knows, the role of the Committee is to assist and advise Ministers, but how can you do that if you are not given the information with which to assist and advise? <BR /> <BR />The Department has form. Mr Lyttle will recall the day when we were in receipt of about 100 pages of financial information five minutes before the start of a Committee meeting. Mr Lyttle, as Deputy Chair, and I, as Chair, decided that we would withdraw rather than take the risk, six months later, of being told, "But sure you were given those papers at a Committee meeting". The Department has form, and the Chair has my sympathy.”
“I thank the Member for giving way, and I declare an interest as a member of the Policing Board. I want to put on record that the current police complement is 7,005 officers. The Chief Constable has warned that, on current budgetary terms, he may lose 300 officers. Compared with the commitment in New Decade, New Approach of 7,500 officers, that is a net loss of 800 — over 10%. I hope that the Member agrees that that is not tolerable.”
“The Minister will be aware that Europe thinks that Northern Ireland has the best of both worlds. Will the Minister agree that it would be an act of great friendship and neighbourliness to lobby to extend that position to our neighbours in the Republic of Ireland? We could then return to the trading arrangements in the UK and between the UK and Ireland that applied last year and a decade ago. There would be no checks at our ports and airports for goods that may or may not end up in the EU; there would be checks at the Republic's ports and airports for goods that are definitely heading to continental Europe. By doing so, the EU would take back control of its inspections, we would solve all unionist objections, and the Republic would benefit. It would be a win, win, win.”
“With the Chief Constable warning that his police numbers could drop 800 below the 7,500 that was committed to in 'New Decade, New Approach', does the Minister have concerns that that will impact negatively on cross-border cooperation in tackling organised crime?”
“I thank the Minister and commend her for the 20 miles per hour initiative. I asked her officials to look at the speed limit at Teal Rocks on the peninsula side of Newtownards. That was following concerns from a young mother about the number of accidents and her belief that a pedestrian may be killed. Your officials said no. However, I understand that, of the nine relevant factors for changing a speed limit, one is reducing public anxiety. Therefore, I ask the Minister to take a personal interest in reviewing that speed limit.”
“I thank the Minister. I am delighted that the strategy consultation is under way and has been so well received. Minister, last Thursday, you recorded a message for the Northern Ireland Youth Forum for the launch of its mental health toolkit, an event that MLA Chris Lyttle and I were honoured to attend. Could I encourage you to share that toolkit with your Executive colleague the Minister of Education for distribution to Northern Ireland's schools?”
“Will the Minister provide an update on any plans to allow care home residents, many of whom suffer from dementia, access to family visits?”
“I thank the Minister. Has he received a bid from the Minister of Justice on behalf of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, bearing in mind the Chief Constable's warning that he may have to lose several hundred officers, which would amount to a net loss of 800 officers compared with the commitment in New Decade, New Approach?”
“I thank the Minister for that response. If we were to do a SWOT analysis — strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, threats — what current threats could the Minister identify to Project Stratum?”
“Given that we are about six weeks from the end of the financial year, is the Minister concerned about what will happen to those people if she does not introduce legislation on time to extend the mitigations?”
“I thank the Minister for that detail. If you are designing a COVID mitigation scheme that is based on qualifying criteria, it is probably inevitable that individuals and groups will fall through the cracks. Will the Minister agree that it would make sense to form a subcommittee of the Executive as a sort of appeals body that is populated by her and maybe the Minister of Finance and the Minister for the Economy? That would represent a better safety net for those who miss out.”
“Thinking of the deputy First Minister's remarks yesterday about the police and, the previous week, Gregory Campbell talking about the skin colour of those participating in 'Songs of Praise' and the reaction to it, what is the First Minister's assessment of the damage that such comments do to the ambition to create a society in which everybody is valued and treated with respect?”
“That is not helpful, and I wonder whether it is even true. I have sat on the Policing Board for the last number of months, and I have not heard the Sinn Féin representatives make that point or the point that there is a serious gap in confidence in the police in the nationalist community. Let us not use the incident for division and for going backwards. Let us use the incident to learn and to move forward together.”
“A couple of weeks ago, for example, we marked the anniversary of a double murder that is inscribed in stone outside these doors, in the Rotunda: the murder of Sir Norman Stronge and his son and the consequent burning of their home. We marked it by sending the party leader and our justice spokesman to record a video so that everybody did not have to be there and we were totally compliant with the regulations and guidelines regarding the COVID restrictions. There is, therefore, a question for the organisers of the event on Friday: did they also fully comply? <BR /> <BR />Yesterday, I heard the deputy First Minister tell the BBC that Friday was:”
“Secondly, for the Chief Constable and the senior leadership of the Police Service, did they make sure that every officer on duty that day who was likely to be near Sean Graham bookmakers was aware that the day was the date of an anniversary? In other words, was there a lapse in corporate memory? If so, that is very serious, and it needs to be addressed, because, with regard to the Troubles, there are anniversaries on every day of every year. That is a matter for political parties to engage with the police on and for the Policing Board. Thirdly, there is a question for the organisers. Again, I say that I uphold the right of people to mark the anniversary.”
“I declare an interest as a member of the Policing Board. I was a journalist at UTV on the day of the atrocity. UTV is only yards away from Sean Graham bookmakers, so I remember the utter brutality of that atrocity — that massacre. It follows, therefore, that I absolutely uphold and defend the right of survivors and relatives to go to the memorial at Sean Graham bookmakers on the day of an anniversary. <BR /> <BR />We all wish that neither the atrocity nor the incident on Friday happened. What arises from Friday is a set of questions for three groups of individuals. First, for the officers on the ground, did they follow the police policy of the four Es: engage; explain; encourage; and, only after that, enforce? That, to my mind, is a matter for the ombudsman, and I hope that her office will report speedily and in depth on that question.”
“I welcome the fact that the report has been compiled. It is very important, and I thank the First Minister for her statement. Will she now address a group of victims who may consider themselves to have been forgotten today? Under the terms of reference of Judith Gillespie's working group, there were three groups covered: those in the mother-and-baby homes; those in the Magdalene laundries; and the victims of historical clerical abuse. To be clear, that means that we offer different regimes of support and opportunities for redress based not on the abuse that a victim suffered but on where it happened. I hope that the First Minister will agree that that is not acceptable and that it would be appropriate to offer a message of acknowledgement and hope to the victims of historical clerical child abuse.”
“I thank the Minister. I believe that the fund totals £25 million. As chair of the all-party group on sport, I have been warned that, if the big three — Ulster GAA, the IFA and Ulster Rugby — put in big bids, there could be less than £10 million left for everybody else. Will the Minister commit to two things? First, I ask that she lobby the Finance Minister for some of the £126·9 million of COVID mitigations that he said is being held back — that was in his Budget announcement yesterday — and, secondly, that she lobby for sports clubs to be included in the localised restrictions support scheme.”
“I thank the Minister for his remarks so far. When the UK's withdrawal from the EU was discussed, was mention made of travelling with pets? It seems that one can now take a pet to Dublin and back unfettered, but that is not the case if one visits another capital city of the United Kingdom, where paperwork and a rabies jab will be needed — for the pet, obviously; not for oneself.”
“This time last year the newly appointed Health Minister was addressing the issues of nurses' pay and safe staffing levels. I note that the Minister says that the Executive have prioritised allocations for agenda for pay in the health service. However, can the Minister go further tonight and commit the funds to deliver on nurses’ pay and safe staffing levels and to do so in a sustainable manner, and not through non-recurring means such as monitoring rounds?”
“That is in Hansard. Is the Minister still proud to put his faith in the national Government?”
“Thank you very much indeed. The issue seems to be the protocol. As the First Minister told the House, last month, the protocol was imposed upon us and negotiated by the UK Government. The Minister for Agriculture previously told the House:”
“Looking forward, it is asking that the £100 million that the Prime Minister has pledged for modernisation be allocated on the basis of need and certainly not by the Barnett formula. What practical steps is the Minister taking to ensure Northern Ireland's fleet gets its fair share of that £100 million reserve?”
“I thank the Minister. The Fishermen's Federation briefing paper, which is three pages long, could be summarised by this one line:”
“I thank the Minister for the detail. How, within the confined space that is a prison, do you effectively conduct track and trace and isolate people who have been in close contact with those who tested positive?”
“I thank the Member for her intervention. I support the Minister 100%, and I know that Mr Swann will roll out the vaccine as quickly as he can. With the full support of his ministerial colleagues in the Northern Ireland Executive, it will be quicker. <BR /> <BR />I will finish by wishing the House, and, indeed, society, a happy new year and a happier 2021. Mr Humphrey was modest when congratulating Mr Baker. Mr Humphrey is also on the New Year's Honours List, and I congratulate him on that. Members, let us work together on this. Happy new year.”
“That is the clear, open, transparent scientific and medical advice. Are we following it? Or do we follow it only when it suits a party political agenda?”
“I thank my colleague for his intervention. I look forward to the Minister's addressing that as well. <BR /> <BR />I will not use all my time, but I want to raise just one other issue, and it is in regard to following scientific and medical advice. I note that some politicians are saying today that teachers should be prioritised for the COVID-19 vaccine. Of course I would like teachers to get the vaccine as soon as possible — I would like everybody to get it as soon as possible — but, in the real world, we have to have a list, and we have to have priorities. If we are truly to follow the scientific and medical advice, we must follow the advice of the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI). I will read what it says into the record:”
“I would like to know where the dot is in the Department's risk assessment of those exams not going ahead, because I suspect that we are much closer to it being where 5 meets 5 than where 0 meets 0. I would really appreciate the Minister's saying where the dot is and what the contingency plan is should this come to pass. That is very important to us, particularly the Committee chaired by Mr Lyttle, in being able to assist and advise the Minister.”
“We are all used to risk assessment graphs where the horizontal axis assesses how likely an adverse event is to happen: 0, being not likely; 5, being almost certain. The vertical axis assesses the impact should it happen: 0, being not very likely and 5, being, potentially, calamitous.”
“I would like to assist and advise this Minister, but it is essential to a have a little bit more about information about his thinking. For example, as I understand it, his original intention was that children would go back to school for a couple of weeks to allow teachers to prepare to deliver remote learning. However, now, because of changing circumstances, they get two days to prepare for remote learning. In his remarks, can the Minister expand on his thinking about that change, and the impact and challenge that it presents to teachers, such as the teachers I represent at Movilla High School? <BR /> <BR />The second issue is a concern about whether the transfer test will go ahead as scheduled.”
“I declare an interest as chair of the board of Movilla High School in Newtownards. I want to put on record my admiration for the principal, Mr Bell, the senior leadership team, the teachers and the non-teaching staff for providing a continuity of teaching and learning through this health crisis. <BR /> <BR />I do wonder what this session is intended to achieve. Is it just to give the Minister a verbal beating? If it is, fair enough, I suppose that that is part of the political mix, and I know there are many who think that the Minister deserves a verbal beating. However, surely there is more to it than that. <BR /> <BR />When we sit in Committee, as we all do, we have a statutory duty to assist and advise Ministers in their work.”