Rachel Woods
North Down · Green Party · Northern Ireland
“We have to get it right, but we are not starting from scratch. We only have to look across the water or down the road to the public and private sectors that already offer that type of leave. <BR /> <BR />I now turn to the comments of other Members.”
“<BR /> <BR />It is time to end the coercive control that criminal gangs have over our communities. Victim and survivors' voices must be heard and reflected in our laws and policies. Minority groups should not be sidelined or silenced. We need to educate from a very young age.”
“There is no direct cost to employers from safe leave, and it is needed to deal with the issues related to abuse. We need to destigmatise abuse and tackle root causes, misogyny and toxic masculinity. <BR /> <BR />I agree with Mr Weir's comments. We should not need to have the protections in place.”
“I thank every Member who spoke during the debate for their comments and support for the Bill. I will address the Minister's comments first. I thank him for being here, and I am glad that he is feeling better. <BR /> <BR />The Assembly cares, and we need to work constructively together to help.”
“<BR /> <BR />As I said at Second Stage, period poverty must be viewed through the lens of children's rights and how the Bill meets our obligations under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC).”
“<BR /> <BR />I take this opportunity at Final Stage to thank officials and members of the councils who took the time to discuss with me their policies, the background to them and how they are working in practice: thank you for everything that you are doing for your staff, and I hope that, should the Bill pass, your regional Parliaments an…”
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“I could not agree more. The point is that we have much to do to help the industry post COVID, as well as with previous problems, and support the fantastic people who work in and run our hospitality businesses here showcasing the best of Northern Ireland.”
“I encourage the Executive to research that as part of any strategies coming forward on harmful drinking, taking into account the nuances that many people who work in the industry face. <BR /> <BR />I will finish, Mr Deputy Speaker, you will be glad to know, with a quotation from a famous chef and advocate for the hospitality industry — the late Mr Anthony Bourdain — from one of his best books:”
“Perhaps, as part of its deliberations, the Committee could look at that alongside the Committee for Health. <BR /> <BR />Stronger measures need to be in place to examine the root causes of excessive and harmful drinking. One example, as I said when I intervened on Mr Nesbitt, would be training hospitality staff in signposting services for those who present with alcohol consumption addiction, such as the drug and alcohol responder training provided by ASCERT. It is for people who frequently work directly with potentially vulnerable people in their communities. Support systems also need to be in place for staff in the industry. Alcohol abuse in the hospitality industry may not be something that is frequently talked about or that forms part of the Government's strategy, but it needs to be.”
“Absolutely. You have my support there, and we also need to look at minimum unit pricing as a next step. <BR /> <BR />People of all ages should be properly educated on the risks and health effects of drinking, as well as encouraging a healthy, active lifestyle. We know that alcohol misuse has been identified as a significant public health and social issue in Northern Ireland over many years, and we have to take greater steps to deal with it. The EFM states that the number of alcohol-related deaths in 2018 was 16·9% more than what was recorded a decade ago, but recorded figures are only the tip of the iceberg because they are only the deaths that can be directly attributed to alcohol. We must do all that we can to address that and provide adequate resources and support to people.”
“<BR /> <BR />On a wider but related note — you will be glad to know that I have only got another half page to go — we need to have in place a strategy and stronger support mechanisms to help those who misuse alcohol and drink to excess and to recognise that overconsumption can be a sign of mental health distress or other health issues.”
“<BR /> <BR />Clause 19, "Code of practice", stipulates that a new code could be approved by the Department that was produced by a person or relevant group of persons who have a relevant interest in matters around liquor. Whilst it is my understanding that the codes of practice and conduct have been useful in tackling specific issues around antisocial behaviour in England, I do wonder what this code of practice relates to. I hope that the Minister will address this. What is the code of practice for? Who are the people or persons who would produce this? Is this a sector code that already exists and is voluntary? Would this not be better off being within guidance? What is the purpose of having it written into the legislation? There is much more information needed here.”
“Like Mr Stewart, I have some concerns about how this would work out from the clubs' perspective. Whilst I understand that, in theory, loyalty schemes could encourage excessive drinking, I would like to ask the Minister and, in turn, the Committee to look at the provision of loyalty schemes in Northern Ireland. Do loyalty schemes actually encourage irresponsible drinking? How are they operating currently? What is the baseline? Where is the empirical evidence for this? Have studies been done on how common these schemes are, how they contribute to overconsumption and how the removal of this type of scheme actually reduces the amount that people drink? Are there any unintended consequences?”
“Much research has been done globally on the effects of advertising on consumer behaviour and, in particular, the effects of the advertising of alcohol on children and young people. From a public health perspective, the level of advertising of harmful products should be limited. While there are no real issues with this, I would like to know what, if any, research has been conducted on the restrictions being in place in supermarkets only. What about social media? What about television and radio? Is there work ongoing that shows that reducing advertising in this manner actually leads to the intended outcomes? Will the Committee engage on this change with those who sell alcohol? <BR /> <BR />Clause 17 prohibits loyalty schemes involving intoxicating liquor in all licensed premises.”
“What happens if nobody has a proof-of-age document to hand? What happens if there is no ID available? Will that bottle of wine or case of beer be returned? We may need a wee bit more detail on that. As regards those people who are in charge of accepting deliveries in a workplace, the responsibility should be on the owner or manager to ensure that the appropriate staff are on duty at the time, that there is adequate training in place and that everyone is familiar with what the age-verification processes are. <BR /> <BR />Clause 16 imposes restrictions on off-sales drink promotions in supermarkets, meaning that they can advertise offers on drinks only in the designated off-sales bit.”
“I note that this would require a change in the way that online shopping is conducted and managed. However, we did that earlier this year, for example, when priority slots were given to those who were shielding. Regulation can be done better. There should be consultation with online platform operators to ensure that this is rolled out and that, if it is, it is done practically and any unforeseen consequences are considered. I hope that the Minister and Committee will be mindful of this. <BR /> <BR />Furthermore, clause 13 makes reference to the need to record details in the delivery book or on an invoice of any proof-of-age document that they had requested. That also applies to places that are not licensed but where there is entertainment being held or that are used as a club. I have a number of practical questions about this.”
“For those who were shielding or self-isolating that was often the only way of getting groceries and essentials. Perhaps the Minister can address any discussions that she has had or any consideration that has been given to incidences where someone under the age of 18 may have to accept a grocery delivery and how that can be done under this legislation. <BR /> <BR />For example, someone at the residence has to sign for the delivery of shopping that includes a bottle of wine. That might be a young person who is the carer for adults. In light of COVID, a member of the household who is under 18 might have to open the door to a delivery because the adult who ordered it is isolating. We have to think about the more nuanced issues that are coming up this year. Restrictions should be mindful of and consider other circumstances.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. I will come to that later, as I have quite a lot here. I note that the consultation that was put out by the Department when the Assembly was down did discuss minimum unit pricing, but that is not in the Bill. Perhaps that is something that the Committee could bring forward. With regard to Departments working together, all Departments should be working together on all legislation because we have a lot of things here that I might mention, and that others have mentioned, that are outside the scope of one Department. It is really important that we do it all together. <BR /> <BR />To go back to the delivery of alcohol, a lot of people had deliveries to their houses from the big supermarkets or their local shops.”
“<BR /> <BR />On another point, consideration would have to be given to premises that remove people from inside the building to outside after the drinking-up time is over, as perhaps drinks can only be consumed in that outside area; as well as the impact that noise would have on residents, if applicable. I encourage the Committee to consider this in all of its deliberations. <BR /> <BR />Clause 13 provides for further regulations on the delivery of alcohol. Online sales for deliveries to households have increased, as we know, from shops, supermarkets and e-commerce platforms. Shopping online has become the norm. Notably, many people relied on online shopping and deliveries during the first COVID-19 lockdown.”
“How can that be put into practice effectively if it is actually about the way in which drinking-up time is managed by the premises itself? <BR /> <BR />I encourage the Committee to speak to the workers in this industry, who have direct experience of drinking-up time, and to ask them what happens, how it impacts on staff safety, how to minimise the abuse that is directed towards them and what the potential impacts of this legislation are. I am more than happy to help in any way with such discussions or to bring in some people who might want to talk to you — there are plenty of them.”
“and, if you have a situation where potentially hundreds of people will be piling out onto the street just an hour later — I touched upon that previously when I mentioned staggered closing times — the extension of drinking-up time in clauses 5 and 24 could allow for better management of people. It might not lead to further purchasing of drinks during this time, but a longer period in which people can finish up or choose to leave it and to go home, but only if it is managed properly. That is surely down to the individual business to put in. <BR /> <BR />I ask the Minister, and I encourage the Committee, to investigate this thoroughly. What evidence is there to show that extending drinking-up time leads to the claims that are made, especially that it would discourage overconsumption?”
“If you are full — not full-full — as in, there are lots of people around,”
“As we know, at times, large numbers of drinks are bought in rounds, which are consumed during this short drinking-up time. Once last orders are called, someone can go to the bar and order two pints to finish in half an hour — or three pints or four pints; you get the idea. However, without having a limit on the amount and the type of drinks served during this time or closing some sections of the premises before other sections — a route I am sure that nobody wants to take — it is very difficult for staff to manage that rate of drinking, as those drinks have been legally served during permitted hours. That is regardless of whether it is 30 minutes or one hour; it is the same system. <BR /> <BR />There are also issues where larger premises with multiple bars have the same drinking-up time.”
“Perhaps it is a conversation for another time, but why are we not giving our, often, lowest-paid staff an extra few quid for working late? Is there any way of putting that into statute? Could Ministers think about bringing that forward? I would support any moves that would mean staff being safely transported home without being further out of pocket for the hours that they will have to work, given the additional time in this Bill. Perhaps we have some learning to do from Scotland in that regard. <BR /> <BR />The drinking-up time is currently 30 minutes from last orders. This is, apparently, to allow for a more controlled consumption of the last drinks served. Clauses 5 and 24 change the allocation from 30 minutes to one hour, if there is a late licence in place, to discourage the overconsumption of alcoholic drinks, according to the EFM.”
“It should also be considered alongside the impact on residents around licensed premises and public houses so that there are no adverse consequences. Business owners should adhere to the legislation and regulations on the working time directive, be mindful of busy and stressful shift patterns, ensure that enough quality breaks are given, and that rotas conform to the working time directive and agreed contracts. <BR /> <BR />Members should note that staff do not get any premiums for working into the wee hours. There is no double time, time and a half or Brucie bonuses for working into the next day, or double time on a Sunday. They are long, hard shifts in which staff often have to deal with difficult people in difficult circumstances.”
“They are all looking for a way home in a taxi, lift or via the very limited public transport available after closing time. A few years ago, I waited, on my own, outside a well-known premises in Belfast, after a gig, for three and a half hours before getting home. I would love to have got the bus. <BR /> <BR />A staggering of hours could see a reduction on the pressures of managing large numbers of people. Will the Minister comment on that? Was staggering or sequential closing time part of the consideration in the development of the Bill? <BR /> <BR />Any extension of hours should also be considered alongside the impact on staff and working hours. A premises that opens for an additional permitted hour will mean one extra hour of work for staff, at a minimum, for drinking-up time allocation, the clean-up and locking up of the business.”
“<BR /> <BR />We should also look at having staggered opening hours for different types of licensed premises, particularly in urban areas. Concerns are often raised about increases in antisocial behaviour in the period after bars and clubs close. The impact that the proposed changes might have on the PSNI's costs and resources were mentioned in the explanatory and financial memorandum (EFM), as Mr Allister also raised. I also noted that there had not been a response by the date on which the Bill was printed. I hope that the Minister can address that in her summing up. <BR /> <BR />We all know that people struggle to find suitable transport home after being out for the night. Many Members may know of the queues in which people have to wait at kicking-out time.”
“The increase of late licences from 20 nights a year to 104 is good for small pubs. It is a measure to support their sustainability, as they often form an integral part of the community. For the same reasons, and in the interests of parity, I welcome the proposals to include registered clubs, as they are crucial parts of our local community. However, any extension of hours should be considered alongside the impact on residents who live around public houses and licensed premises so that there is no additional adverse impact to their neighbourhood environment, especially with noise. <BR /> <BR />It should also be made clear that there is no pressure on any business to stay open for longer. The choice will lie with the business and be suitable for its environment.”
“In my experience, people were heading out for food later, rather than going to get something to eat or drink straight after work at 6.00 pm, which is commonplace in London. Booking time in some places was extended to 10.00 pm and beyond. Many people ate at home but came out later to experience the great live music and local talent that was being hosted in our bars and clubs — another industry that we need to do more to support. As people were going out later, there should have been an allowance to increase the permitted hours currently granted for those places, where suitable. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the inclusion of the extended opening hours in the Bill. Those changes would also support the much-needed growth in the night-time economy, as well as the tourist industry, across Northern Ireland.”
“What does that mean? I hope that the Minister can tell me and provide a few examples. Who decides on the nature of the event? Is it the Department? What is it based on? That question applies equally to the designation of a major event, as addressed in clauses 6 and 25. <BR /> <BR />Liability must also be addressed. If, for instance, a producer sells an unopened product that contains alcohol at an event, and the purchaser opens it, who is liable? Is the seller liable? Surely not. It must, therefore, be the purchaser. However, one does not hold off-licences responsible for anyone opening a bottle on the street or away from their premises — not that anybody would. That is the responsibility of the opener. <BR /> <BR />If we try to think back to before COVID-19 and the lockdown, we will remember that people were going out later.”
“In clause 4, paragraph 1(b) of article 52C, which relates to the local producers' licence and sale on other licensed premises, states that liquor produced in the production premises can be sold if it:”
“That can be to the detriment of the small independent producers and their ability to supply local bars, even as part of a chain or as an independent pub. Monopolies also put pub owners in a position in which they have to sign up to agreements with the big suppliers because of the financial situation that they find themselves in and the incentives that they can offer. That must be looked at.”
“Will a brewery, able to open as a taproom to sell solely its own product, which bars and pubs perhaps do not sell, impact on their footfall, however? Will the Committee look at that? As I said before, I ask the Committee please to engage with all the sectors and listen to their concerns on fees and amounts that they have to pay to operate. Surely we can then get to a place that has a more level playing field. <BR /> <BR />Mr Catney mentioned something that I wish to touch on again, and it concerns the size of the distributors in the Northern Ireland market. He mentioned Guinness and Heineken, while I mentioned Diageo and Tennent's. It is fundamentally unfair that two, perhaps three, distributors have a monopoly on the market here.”
“There is much discussion on that element of the Bill already, and a number of Members have touched on part of it. If breweries are allowed to open all the time, there are fears that they will sell not just their own product and that that will affect the traditional pub trade, which operates under different licences. I wonder whether the Department has engaged on that so far. I would like to know what other models have been looked at for local producers to sell their product. Have we looked at the English model rather than the Republic of Ireland model and considered how that could be done here? <BR /> <BR />Many Members will have been lobbied about the amount of money that bars and pubs have to pay for licences and fees, which are incredibly high. Do not get me wrong: they are extremely high.”
“Doing that could showcase our quality local producers. The restrictions in the Bill make no economic or financial sense to those who want to increase footfall and trade, especially those targeting the tourism market. <BR /> <BR />I have a few questions about clause 8, which is on the sale of producer-made products. What reason is there for the inclusion of article 52B, whereby producers can sell their product only for consumption on the premises, restricting it to samples or as part of a tour? I would welcome much more detail on that clause, which seems overly restrictive. If a tour operates from Monday to Saturday, for example, for a certain number of hours during the day, realistically how much is a producer going to sell? Does that make economic sense for investors?”
“A similar situation is felt by those in our kitchens, with our chefs, kitchen porters, prep cooks and cleaners having their hours cut because of the licensing restrictions, not to mention businesses that rely on trade from the industry, such as other restaurants, takeaways and taxis. <BR /> <BR />As is stated in the consultation document, there has been a significant increase in the number of local producers in the past 15 years in Northern Ireland and an upturn in the market for locally made sustainable craft beer, cider, gin and whiskey. Discussion has been ongoing about the possibility of having a free tasting sample of the product versus being able to open as a taproom. I know from going to, say, the Teeling and Jameson distilleries in Dublin, that that is commonplace. You can get a selection at the end or a cocktail.”
“Easter opening hours mean not only a business and financial loss for licensed trade, estimated in 2018 as £20 million, but shorter shifts offered to staff that week, with part-time and temporary staff frequently losing out. I have personal experience of that. At Easter, members of staff will often not have the full shifts that they are used to over the weekend, whereas full-time members will have to work longer shifts in order to make up their hours. The bars and pubs are not as busy as normal. They are busier at different points, and earlier closing hours mean that normal-length shifts are cut. That affects not only the wages that come in but the tips collected, which, I am afraid to say, are a vital supplement to the low wages that our workers are paid.”
“Restrictions on the sale and consumption of alcohol on Good Friday date back to 1833 and the current position to 1924. We are nearly 100 years on from then. All restrictions should be removed, and I am glad to see that in the legislation that has been laid. <BR /> <BR />I note that, during the time that the Assembly was down, all the parties on the Executive signed up to changing the Easter opening hours. It formed part of the NDNA agreement. I hope that, next Easter, we are not in a situation in which there are still restrictions on opening hours because of some undue delay in the Assembly. Although I respect the incredibly important Committee scrutiny process and the time that is necessary for Assembly debate at all the relevant stages, this legislation should be expedited.”
“We are already experiencing a lot of people leaving the industry, and that also needs to be looked at by the Committee. I hope that the Communities Minister and the Economy Minister will consider this as forward work. I also encourage, as part of their scrutiny, the other relevant Committees to look at the issue with the unions, the sector representatives and those who actually work in the industry. Action is needed, with the right people around the table. We should celebrate the fantastic hospitality and tourism offering and staff that we have. <BR /> <BR />The Easter opening hours in Northern Ireland are farcical. Our opening hours have become the subject of scrutiny in recent years, notably during the Open last year, and understandably so.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. Of course, I think that, and I have emailed all of the party Whips this afternoon encouraging them to sign up to the motion that Mr Carroll and I submitted today on that very rescue plan. I encourage you to engage with your parties on that. <BR /> <BR />To the Bill, Mr Deputy Speaker. We have to realise that we have a lot to do to help the hospitality industry and the workers in the short, medium and long term in general.”
“Owners and staff have gone above and beyond to adapt to the changes, creating safe environments in which they can operate and function. Businesses that had to rely on small grants to pay their bills for months had to invest heavily in screens, PPE, sanitisers and training, which, mostly, they did, only to be shut down weeks later. Many workers face a very uncertain future with reduced hours or no hours, redundancies or just being let go. It is crucial that assistance to the sector continues, and we must look to expand the support to the industry through this legislation and beyond. <BR /> <BR />I fully support the calls made last week by Unite for a hospitality and tourism rescue plan. Its opening statement makes for sobering reading:”
“As I said, the sector has been one of the most affected by the new restrictions. It continues:”
“The Bill will not be any form of panacea or silver bullet for where we are currently, but, if it is done right and it is passed in good time, it can make a difference on the other side of the COVID-19 crisis. I encourage that to happen. <BR /> <BR />Before I get into the commentary on some of the clauses and give the Committee some pointers to look at, it is important to reflect on the hardship currently experienced by the industry, and the Bill relates to it. The accompanying explanatory and financial memorandum puts it bluntly:”
“<BR /> <BR />On the face of it, the Green Party supports calls to create an environment that can support the responsible sale and consumption of alcohol while supporting the hospitality sector in Northern Ireland. We all know of the recent issues with and pressures on the sector because of COVID-19 and the ever-changing landscape of restrictions, which must be mentioned. We are discussing this Second Stage right in the middle of the newest bout of restrictions faced by the industry, some of which are, frankly, a bit bizarre. There are different rules around carry-outs that have apparently no evidential basis or grounding — unnecessary discrimination or a failure of common sense.”
“From the outset, I will say that I might be here a while. I cannot even begin to follow Mr Catney's discussion, but, like him, I have a lot to say. Members of the Communities Committee will probably be glad that I do not sit on it, because I would certainly like to get my teeth into this. I suppose I will use this as my response for the Committee to pick up and give you some workload. <BR /> <BR />I really welcome the opportunity to speak at Second Stage today. The Bill has been a long time coming, to say the least. I will begin by declaring a big interest as a frequent visitor to licensed premises and because, up to earlier this year, I worked in the industry in a pub in my constituency and had done so since I was 15.”
“There are schemes there, and perhaps the Committee for Communities, the Committee for Health and the wider Executive could look at rolling that out to all pubs and restaurants so that people who work on the front line with sometimes vulnerable and lonely people can facilitate meaningful conversation.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Just for his information and that of others, a scheme has already been rolled out in communities by ASCERT, which has trained drug and alcohol responders. I have been trained in that, and I functioned as the responder in my previous workplace.”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. In the light of the severe levels of condensation and rising damp that pose a health risk to many Housing Executive tenants, which is an issue in my constituency, can the Minister confirm whether any contracts currently out for tender include urgent work on ventilation and the installation of replacement damp-proof courses, specifically for Northern Ireland Housing Executive tenants in North Down?”
“I appreciate that the Minister answered a number of questions on her statement this morning in relation to this, so I will be cheeky and get in another one that I wanted to ask. The splitting of the landlord function of the Housing Executive will mean that it will have freedom to borrow and invest, but how will this be facilitated without raising the rents?”
“I thank the Minister for bringing this ambitious statement to the House today. I have a number of questions, including some about landlord function and unaffordable rents in the private rented sector. I look forward to engaging with the Minister in the future, if she will meet me, to discuss the issues, especially those in North Down — I had to get that in there. <BR /> <BR />I hope that the changes will come with an uplift for Supporting People. I note that there is an intention to implement all bar two aspects of the 2017 consultation. Does that include the discharge of the homeless duty to the private rented sector? In order to qualify for the discharge, a secure tenancy must be one that lasts for a year only. Does she intend for the homelessness duty to be discharged to tenancies that last only for a year? Why can it not be two?”
“I thank the Minister for his answers so far. He will be aware of how hard the hospitality industry has been hit by the COVID-19 restrictions and how the job retention scheme literally was and is a lifeline for workers. Without it, we would see more redundancies in an already precarious industry. I agree with Ms Archibald that furlough should, at a minimum, continue until the end of this financial year. Given those issues, will the Minister support Unite the Union's hospitality and tourism rescue plan, meet union reps and bring the plan to the Executive's attention for action?”
“I thank the Minister for her answers so far. When did she first become aware that some payments were made to ineligible businesses and people, and by whom was she informed?”
“When will a new panel for ministerial standards be appointed?”
“For the hospitality industry, the majority of whom have gone above and beyond to keep their staff and customers safe in exceptionally difficult circumstances, is the new furlough scheme it? <BR /> <BR />Finally, First Minister, a specific question: when exactly do these changes come in? Will you clarify when closures come in for the hospitality sector? Are last orders in pubs and restaurants tomorrow night or Friday?”
“I thank the First Minister and Health Minister for coming to the House. I note that the closure of some of our sectors, while having others open, was surely, on the face of it, a purely political decision, without seeing the evidence of transmission in certain settings. It was also, surely, a political decision not to have adequate support in place before today's announcement, but I am glad to learn that information is due tomorrow. <BR /> <BR />There remain so many questions. What is unnecessary travel? Is it enforceable? What is a "mass event"? What happens to hotels and B&Bs? What about those who were shielding before? What do they do? Will there be information for them?”
“The Executive must legislate to that effect as a matter of urgency. I commend the motion.”