Alison Johnstone
No Party Affiliation · Scotland
“We will use the same voting procedure as before. Members voted by secret ballot. The Presiding Officer: Voting in this round of the Presiding Officer election is closed. I invite the scrutineers to proceed to the back of the chamber for the counting of votes. Again, candidates may also observe the count.”
“I now invite any scrutineers appointed by the candidates to go to the back of the chamber to observe the counting of ballot papers. Candidates may also observe the count.”
“The first meeting of the seventh session of the Parliament is resumed. I have received four valid nominations for the position of Presiding Officer. I shall now announce the nominations and ask all candidates, as their names are announced, to make themselves known to the chamber.”
“Ballot papers should be marked with an X before being folded and then placed in one of the ballot boxes provided at the rear of the chamber. At the end of each voting period, I shall invite any scrutineers that have been nominated by each candidate to monitor the counting of votes at the back of the chamber, which is where clerks will emp…”
“Members should remain in their seats until I invite them to collect their ballot paper from clerks at the back of the chamber. Members with surnames beginning with the letters A to F should collect their ballot papers from the desk on my left at the back of the chamber—the clerks there have their hands up.”
“15:29 On resuming— The Presiding Officer: This voting period is now open, using the same voting procedure as before. Members voted by secret ballot. The Presiding Officer: Voting in the third round of the election of the Presiding Officer is closed.”
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“The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-17416, in the name of Liam McArthur, on the Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill at stage 1. Members who wish to speak in the debate should press their request-to-speak buttons. I call Liam McArthur, the member in charge of the bill, to speak to and move the motion. 14:22”
“Do you look for the wisdom in proposals that are from those who would not normally be allies? Quakers challenge each other in the following way: “When words are strange or disturbing to you, try to sense where they come from and what has nourished the lives of others. Listen patiently and seek the truth which other people’s opinions may contain for you. Avoid hurtful criticism and provocative language. Do not allow the strength of your convictions to betray you into making statements or allegations which are unfair or untrue. Think it possible that you may be mistaken.” That is no small challenge, but we all have to try much harder. Thank you for your time, and go well this week. Topical Question Time 14:05 United Kingdom Government Immigration Proposals (Impact on Public Services) 1.”
“Think of the chamber’s watchwords: justice, integrity, wisdom and compassion. We all have to face the reality of the coming decades. No one can underestimate the burdens that are resting upon the shoulders of all national Parliaments. No single person or group has the answers. Solutions will span the next five sessions of parliament, and lasting consensus is essential. Therefore, it is vital to speak with humility, not because we lack confidence in our convictions but out of respect for others’ knowledge and perspectives. In turn, we must listen with humility and a desire for understanding. There is a deep need for plain, honest, open speaking from society’s leaders—a group that you are all part of. You are privileged to be in a position to foster understanding and trigger change. Do you debate possible solutions with open minds?”
“Good afternoon. The first item of business is time for reflection, and our leader today is Richard Raggett, Quaker. Richard Raggett (Quaker): Good afternoon. How good are we at listening—really listening? Listening to others and to our own hearts is a deep strand of how Quakers try to live. Public discourse encourages division—to be for or against. Abuse, ridicule, extreme language and threats follow—as you are all too well aware. How do we break the grip of bitterness and find kinder ground? The multiple crises that we face have become all too serious. As global carbon emissions continue to rise, deferring climate action compounds the problem for future generations. We are caught in a terrible moral and pragmatic knot. Scotland desperately needs to harvest the collective integrity and good will of this place.”
“Meeting closed at 16:58. This is the final edition of the Official Report for this meeting. It is part of the Scottish Parliament Official Report archive and has been sent for legal deposit. Published in Edinburgh by the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body, the Scottish Parliament, Edinburgh, EH99 1SP All documents are available on the Scottish Parliament website at: www.parliament.scot Information on non-endorsed print suppliers is available here: www.parliament.scot/documents For information on the Scottish Parliament contact Public Information on: Telephone: 0131 348 5000 Textphone: 0800 092 7100 Email: sp.info@parliament.scot”
“Motion agreed to, That the Parliament marks the 80th anniversary of Victory in Europe (VE) Day, which took place on 8 May 1945; remembers the 380,000 UK Armed Forces personnel, including 57,000 Scots, and over 67,000 civilians who lost their lives during the conflict; commemorates the service and pays tribute to the sacrifices of those individuals from across Scotland and the UK, the Commonwealth and the Allied Nations, which ensured the peace and freedoms that are enjoyed today; appreciates the efforts of Legion Scotland and Poppyscotland to mark the occasion, including a national commemorative concert held in Edinburgh on 6 May 2025, Scotland’s Salute to VE Day, which was supported by the Scottish Government, and commends the work of both organisations and of veterans charities across Scotland in supporting the veterans of this conflict and their families, many of whom continue to be affected by the tragedy of war to this day.”
“There is one question to be put as a result of today’s business. The question is, that motion S6M-17457, in the name of John Swinney, on commemorating the 80th anniversary of victory in Europe day, be agreed to.”
“I am minded to accept a motion without notice that, under rule 11.2.4 of standing orders, decision time be brought forward to now. I invite Martin Whitfield to move such a motion. Motion moved, That, under Rule 11.2.4, Decision Time be brought forward to 4.58pm.—[Martin Whitfield] Motion agreed to. Decision Time 16:58”
“The First Minister: The public cast a judgment on the Conservative Party last Thursday, and it was pretty damning indeed about the future of the Conservative Party. What the public are interested in, and what I am interested in, is delivering on the priorities of the people of Scotland. Right at the heart of the Government’s programme is investment to support increased capacity in the national health service, so that we deliver more GP appointments and better access to GP services, and get waiting lists down. That will preoccupy my thinking as First Minister. I will leave Mr Findlay to sit on the sidelines, as he does every week, throwing insults around and contributing nothing—I am going to deliver for the people of Scotland. Programme for Government (Homelessness) 2.”
“Nicola Sturgeon and John Swinney both knew that, but the SNP hid the truth from the public, so Humza Yousaf failed upwards. John Swinney helped Nicola Sturgeon’s awful health secretary become an awful First Minister. If the SNP had been honest and transparent, would Humza Yousaf have become First Minister? The First Minister: What an absolutely miserable contribution to parliamentary discourse—completely and utterly. That is all that the Conservatives have left. They are in such a— [Interruption.] I do not know why Rachael Hamilton is laughing—[Interruption.] The Presiding Officer: Let us hear one another. We have observers in the gallery and people tuning in online. Let us make sure that we can all hear what is being said.”
“Russell Findlay: It was a simple question, but I am not surprised that John Swinney is not prepared to come clean about what he thought at the time, because this is a dishonest Government that is addicted to secrecy. The Presiding Officer: Mr Findlay, let us carry out our business in a courteous manner. Russell Findlay: We saw that when Nicola Sturgeon and John Swinney deleted their messages that should have been provided to the UK Covid inquiry. We see it with the SNP wasting taxpayers’ money on a shameful cover-up about its NHS recovery plan. The SNP spent four years hiding the truth from the public about what Nicola Sturgeon really thought. Humza Yousaf’s plan caused waiting lists to rise, not fall. It was flimsy rubbish, as we said.”
“Let us hear one another. The First Minister: They have absolutely nothing constructive to contribute to the debate. Let me say to Mr Findlay that, during my term in office as First Minister, we promised to provide 64,000 extra appointments by the end of March 2025. We did not do that. In fact, we delivered 105,500 extra appointments and procedures in that timescale, and we will deliver more in the forthcoming parliamentary year. I say to Mr Findlay—just so that he is not worried about it in the future—that this Government will deliver more in the course of the next 12 months. I will be very happy to answer parliamentary questions about that—not just before the election but after it, when I will remain as First Minister.”
“Eighty years ago, after years of people living with the brutality of war, the guns across Europe fell silent. We honour the generation that gave so much to secure our peace and freedoms. We owe it to them to strive for that peace, to remember and to encourage future generations to remember. Please join me in observing the national two minutes’ silence as we reflect with gratitude, marking the 80th anniversary of victory in Europe day. Please join me in standing, if you are able. Victory in Europe Day (80th Anniversary) 12:02”
“Amendment disagreed to. The Presiding Officer: I remind members that, if the amendment in the name of Paul O’Kane is agreed to, the amendment in the name of Lorna Slater will fall. The next question is that amendment S6M- 17437.2, in the name of Paul O’Kane, which seeks to amend motion S6M-17437, in the name of Kate Forbes, on programme for government—building the best future for Scotland, be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Presiding Officer: There will be a division. The vote is closed.”
“For Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Rona Mackay] Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Jamie Hepburn] McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) The Presiding Officer: The result of the division on amendment S6M-17437.4, in the name of Murdo Fraser, is: For 28, Against 88, Abstentions 0.”
“We will proceed with the division on amendment S6M-17437.4, in the name of Murdo Fraser, which seeks to amend motion S6M-17437, in the name of Kate Forbes, on programme for government— building the best future for Scotland. Members should cast their votes now.”
“There are six questions to be put as a result of today’s business. I remind members that, if the amendment in the name of Murdo Fraser is agreed to, the amendment in the name of Lorna Slater will fall. The first question is, that amendment S6M- 17437.4, in the name of Murdo Fraser, which seeks to amend motion S6M-17437, in the name of Kate Forbes, on programme for government— building the best future for Scotland, be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Presiding Officer: There will be a division. There will be a short suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system. 17:02 Meeting suspended. 17:04 On resuming— The Presiding Officer: I remind members that, if the amendment in the name of Murdo Fraser is agreed to, the amendment in name of Lorna Slater will fall.”
“The next item of business is consideration of Parliamentary Bureau motion S6M-17452, on designation of a lead committee. I ask Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, to move the motion. Motion moved, That the Parliament agrees that the Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee be designated as the lead committee in consideration of the Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill at stage 1. The Presiding Officer: The question on the motion will be put at decision time. Decision Time 17:01”
“The Presiding Officer: The next item of business is consideration of business motion S6M- 17451, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on timetabling of a bill at stage 1. Motion moved, That the Parliament agrees that consideration of the Dog Theft (Scotland) Bill at stage 1 be completed by 3 October 2025.—[Jamie Hepburn] Motion agreed to. Parliamentary Bureau Motion 17:01”
“The next item of business is consideration of business motion S6M-17450, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme. Motion moved, That the Parliament agrees— (a) the following programme of business— Tuesday 13 May 2025 2.00 pm Time for Reflection followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by Topical Questions (if selected) followed by Stage 1 Debate: Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill followed by Committee Announcements followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 7.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members’ Business Wednesday 15 May 2025 2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.00 pm Portfolio Questions: Constitution, External Affairs and Culture, and Parliamentary Business; Justice and Home Affairs followed by Ministerial Statement: Impact of UK Government Decisions on Scotland’s Social Care Sector followed by Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party Business followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by Approval of SSIs (if required) 5.40 pm Decision Time followed by Members’ Business Thursday 15 May 2025 11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions 11.40 am General Questions 12.00 pm First Minister’s Questions followed by Members’ Business 2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.00 pm Portfolio Questions: Education and Skills followed by Ministerial Statement: Secure Care and the Wider Care System followed by Scottish Government Debate: Scotland in Today’s Europe followed by Appointment of the Patient Safety Commissioner for Scotland followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time Tuesday 20 May 2025 2.00 pm Time for Reflection followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by Topical Questions (if selected) followed by Stage 3 Proceedings: Regulation of Legal Services (Scotland) Bill followed by Committee Announcements followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 6.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members’ Business Wednesday 21 May 2025 2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.00 pm Portfolio Questions: Deputy First Minister Responsibilities, Economy and Gaelic; Finance and Local Government followed by Scottish Government Business followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by Approval of SSIs (if required) 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members’ Business Thursday 22 May 2025 11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions 11.40 am General Questions 12.00 pm First Minister’s Questions followed by Members’ Business 2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.30 pm Portfolio Questions: Net Zero and Energy, and Transport followed by Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee Debate: Committee Effectiveness Inquiry followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time (b) that, for the purposes of Portfolio Questions in the week beginning 12 May 2025, in rule 13.7.3, after the word “except” the words “to the extent to which the Presiding Officer considers that the questions are on the same or similar subject matter or” are inserted.—[Jamie Hepburn] Motion agreed to.”
“I close with the words of the Wise Group, which says: “We have the data. We have the tools. We have the models. What we don’t have—yet—is the political guts”. Does that not just sum up these 18 years of the Government? 16:31”
“The Government’s motion fails to acknowledge the SNP’s dominance in Scottish politics over nearly two decades, and it does not accept that radical change needs to accelerate at pace. Although I agree with much of what is said in several of the amendments to the motion, Liberal Democrats will not be supporting the Green and Conservative amendments. However, I am happy to support the Labour amendment, because I agree that furthering regional economic development and growth, and using technology to do so, is one way to accelerate economic growth, in particular in the region that Paul O’Kane and I mutually represent. Finally, I highlight the two themes of growth and targeted intervention. Poverty is complex, which means that the Government must spend its money wisely and on those who need it most.”
“The reality is that there is no one-stop shop these days to help people with housing, energy, debt, childcare and mental health issues. People are simply passed from pillar to post, and from one agency to another. There is endless bureaucracy and red tape, and people never actually get the targeted interventions that they need and which would reflect the uniqueness of their own personal circumstances. That is why the Wise Group rightly calls for integrated public services and one-to-one assistance and mentoring programmes. It says— to give the Government credit—that the money is there, but it claims that the political will is not. Those reforms need to take place sooner rather than later, and I hope that there is the cross-party support and will behind them.”
“If members get the chance, they should pop out and chat to the Wise Group outside the chamber. It says that targeted, data-rich interventions that result in a one-to-one tailored mentoring opportunity for vulnerable households are the only way in which we will turn the tables on poverty. Practical measures, not programmes for government, will fix the problem. In the Wise Group’s words, “poverty in Scotland is not just about income. It’s about the grinding reality of being trapped in a bureaucratic labyrinth where the help on offer is confusing, disconnected, and often dehumanising.” It describes Scotland’s public sector as “an exhausting maze of silos and short-term fixes.” Those are entirely the Wise Group’s words, not mine, and that is from an organisation that is funded by the Scottish Government. How true that is.”
“Issues of housing quality, housing availability and housing affordability are also major causes of physical, mental and financial health issues. That national shame—it really is our other national shame— sees thousands of Scottish children living in temporary accommodation because there are no suitable permanent homes for them. What about the crisis in our college and university sector? Pam Duncan-Glancy made the point that many of those great institutions are facing the wall financially, when upskilling and retraining a workforce should be the Government’s number 1 priority. The young Scots of today are the business leaders of the future. I say to the Government that fixing those problems would fix the economy. That is why I move on to comments that were made earlier and credited to the Wise Group.”
“However, poverty is much wider than that— poverty of health, of opportunity, of circumstance, of safety and of personal household resilience are just as important. Let me give some examples. On mental health, 21 per cent of adults living in Scotland’s most deprived communities report two or more symptoms of depression, compared with 8 per cent of those living in the least deprived areas. What about addiction? According to the Poverty Alliance, people living in our most deprived communities are 18 times more likely to experience problem drug use. John Mason: Will the member give way? Jamie Greene: I am very short on time. What about adverse childhood experiences? Children in the most deprived areas of Scotland are 20 times more likely to be care experienced. What about poor circumstances?”
“Simply throwing money at a problem does not always solve it. I say that because I have sat on the Public Audit Committee for some time now. The devolved welfare bill is now approaching 15 per cent of the entire Scottish budget, and that is likely to grow, as is the case when we devolve responsibility for matters. As I know at first hand, poverty is not necessarily about how much money people have in their pocket on any given day—poverty is complex and wide ranging. Seeing the issue solely through the prism of day-to-day finances makes it incredibly easy for the Government to attribute its lack of progress on eradicating poverty solely to finances. That makes it all too easy for the Government to blame other Governments and other Parliaments for its inability to eradicate poverty.”
“We move to winding-up speeches. 16:24 Jamie Greene: I apologise for popping out for a brief break. I have the joys of speaking twice in this debate, although I may have to get used to the deafening silence after I have spoken, which I am sure I will over time. [Laughter.] To be fair, attendance is looking quite slim on the other side of the chamber these days. I mentioned in my opening speech that my remarks would be twofold in nature. My opening speech centred on common ground on economic growth, and it has been good to hear members across the chamber, including Government members, making quite bolstering comments. In my closing remarks, I will focus on public sector reform and how we target Government interventions to genuinely eradicate poverty, which is an admirable ambition.”
“There is one question to be put as a result of today’s business. The question is, that motion S6M-17448, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on committee meeting time, be agreed to. Motion agreed to, That the Parliament agrees that, under Rule 12.3.3B of Standing Orders, the Education, Children and Young People Committee can meet, if necessary, at the same time as a meeting of the Parliament following Decision Time on Wednesday 7 May 2025. The Presiding Officer: That concludes decision time. Eco-Schools”
“The next item of business is consideration of Parliamentary Bureau motion S6M-17448, on committee meeting time. I ask Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, to move the motion. Motion moved, That the Parliament agrees that, under Rule 12.3.3B of Standing Orders, the Education, Children and Young People Committee can meet, if necessary, at the same time as a meeting of the Parliament following Decision Time on Wednesday 7 May 2025.—[Jamie Hepburn] The Presiding Officer: The question on the motion will be put at decision time. Decision Time 17:01”
“Thank you. Neil Gray: Last year, Labour promised to cut energy bills, end austerity and deliver change. Instead, it has short-changed the people, continued to balance the books on the backs of pensioners and disabled people, and allowed energy bills to go up—[Interruption.] The Presiding Officer: Let us hear the cabinet secretary. Neil Gray: That failure to deliver has cost the Westminster parties this past week, but not nearly as much as it is costing the public, businesses and our economy. In stark contrast, this is a programme for government from a Government that will deliver for the people of Scotland, and I will be proud to work for its delivery and for further progress for Scotland. The Presiding Officer: That concludes the debate on the programme for government 2025- 26. Parliamentary Bureau Motion 17:00”
“The next item of business is a statement by John Swinney on the programme for government for 2025-26. The First Minister will take questions at the end of his statement, so there should be no interventions or interruptions. 14:22”
“That concludes topical question time. Before we move to the First Minister’s statement, I invite members to join me in welcoming to the gallery the honourable Pat Weir MP, speaker of the Legislative Assembly, the Parliament of Queensland. [Applause.] Programme for Government”
“As I have said, Ken and Sadie went through the unimaginable, and their thoughts were first and foremost always with their loved ones. They were both people of faith who found Christ’s love: wide and high and deep, unchanging and tender for the most broken and vulnerable, and so profound that it shaped them to be the people they were after the war. This victory in Europe day, I give thanks for the men and women of faith and no faith who served and made this world a place of peace and opportunity for people like you and me to live in and be the people we are without fear. Today, we must recognise how precious peace is and work to make it happen each and every day. Topical Question Time 14:04 Reported Rape Cases (Increase) 1.”
“She was soon to leave Africa to travel with her unit through Sicily into Italy, and then France and Belgium. Like Ken, she would witness unimaginable suffering. Sadie and Ken did not see each other for 50 years, before they became next-door neighbours in their retirement complex in my parish, each with their own stories and memories, and nightmares that never left. Before Ken got home, for 10 weeks, his wife had a telegram that read “missing, presumed dead”. He used to say that that was why he did the shopping and the cooking—to make up for the hell that she went through. Those who have experienced war rarely talk about its horrors. When they do, they might tell funny stories, with all the horrors in plain sight but hidden by other words.”
“Ken’s side survived, but Ken and some of his comrades were very badly wounded. Ken was put on a stretcher, and they proceeded up the road. As each mortar came in, the stretcher bearers dropped him to the ground and dived into the gully at the side of the road. That went on several times, until Ken pointed out that they were heading towards the enemy—so they turned around, went back up the road and the whole palaver began again. Soon, he was picked up by an American jeep and taken to a US field hospital, where he was given penicillin. He always said that he was one of the first Brits to get the drug, which we did not have at the time. It saved his life. He was then shipped to a hospital in north Africa. One of the Queen Alexandra nurses there was Sadie, who helped to nurse him back to health.”
“Good afternoon. The first item of business is time for reflection, and our time for reflection leader today is the Rev Dr Karen Campbell, parish minister of Marchmont St Giles in Edinburgh and national chaplain for the Royal British Legion Scotland. The Rev Dr Karen Campbell (Marchmont St Giles Parish Church and Royal British Legion Scotland): Tonight, in the Usher hall, “Scotland’s Salute - A Tribute to VE-Day 80th Anniversary Concert” takes place. I will lead a time of remembrance, with an opportunity to take a minute of silence to remember the sacrifice of the second world war generation. As I stand there tonight, one of the people I will remember is Ken, who was wounded at Monte Cassino. His unit went into a bombed-out building. Half of them went to one side and were immediately killed.”
“Amendment disagreed to. The Presiding Officer: The next question is, that amendment S6M-17399.2, in the name of Patrick Harvie, which seeks to amend motion S6M-17399, in the name of Gillian Martin, on Scotland’s hydrogen future, be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Presiding Officer: There will be a division. The vote is closed. Collette Stevenson has asked to make a point of order, but I can confirm that her vote has been recorded.”
“For Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Rona Mackay] Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Jamie Hepburn] McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Abstentions Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) The Presiding Officer: The result of the division on amendment S6M-17399.3, in the name of Sarah Boyack, is: For 51, Against 62, Abstentions 6.”
“Amendment disagreed to. The Presiding Officer: The next question is, that amendment S6M-17399.3, in the name of Sarah Boyack, which seeks to amend motion S6M-17399, in the name of Gillian Martin, on Scotland’s hydrogen future, be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“For Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Rona Mackay] Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Jamie Hepburn] McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Abstentions Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) The Presiding Officer: The result of the division on amendment S6M-17399.1, in the name of Graham Simpson, is: For 34, Against 67, Abstentions 17.”
“There are four questions to be put as a result of today’s business. The first question is, that amendment S6M-17399.1, in the name of Graham Simpson, which seeks to amend motion S6M- 17399, in the name of Gillian Martin, on Scotland’s hydrogen future, be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Presiding Officer: There will be a division. There will be a short suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system. 17:01 Meeting suspended. 17:03 On resuming— The Presiding Officer: We come to the vote on amendment S6M-17399.1, in the name of Graham Simpson, which seeks to amend motion S6M- 17399, in the name of Gillian Martin. Members should cast their votes now.”
“We have achieved significant decarbonisation of our electricity networks through the development of renewable technology. A few weeks ago, the Deputy First Minister and I, along with the Acting Cabinet Secretary for Net Zero and Energy, led an investment conference in Edinburgh, which brought hundreds of investors into Scotland to invest in renewable energy. That is the future for this country—clean, green energy that will lower fuel bills. People will get that from an SNP Government. Mental Health Support (Children and Young People) 2.”
“The First Minister: It is for lots of reasons—not least that the cost of nuclear power will not bring down energy prices for householders in this country. Mr Findlay wants me to press ahead with the development of new nuclear power stations. The Hinkley Point C project—a nuclear power station—was due to be completed in 2025 at a cost of £34 billion. On current estimates, it is now expected that it will cost £46 billion and be delayed until 2031. If it was supposed to cost £34 billion but will now cost £46 billion, how will that bring down fuel bills in this country? I say to Mr Findlay that we have a very developed strategy—[Interruption.] The Presiding Officer: Let us hear the First Minister. The First Minister: We have a very developed and successful strategy for attracting investment to develop renewable energy capacity in Scotland.”
“Russell Findlay: People in the real world know that using Scotland’s oil and gas is plain common sense. They also know that we need a mix of energy sources for a stable supply and to cut costs for families and businesses. A new generation of nuclear power stations could be part of that mix, and a new poll shows that most SNP voters agree. Nuclear energy is green and clean. It produces a reliable and steady supply, and it would bring down people’s bills, but John Swinney is intent on inflicting self-harm on Scotland by blocking all new developments. That is nonsensical, impractical and irresponsible, but he is blinded by ideology. Nuclear energy makes sense for our economy, and it makes sense for our environment, so why does it not work for John Swinney?”
“Russell Findlay: I will tell you what—it is quite something to be lectured by a career politician about barefaced dishonesty when he has built a career on it. The Presiding Officer: Mr Findlay, please have a seat. We have many important questions that members wish to ask in this session. I am not going to ask again—can we please treat one another with courtesy and respect? Let us focus on the business of the day. Russell Findlay: I assumed that the phrase “barefaced dishonesty” was reasonable and allowed, given that the First Minister has just used it. The Presiding Officer: Mr Findlay, I have addressed that comment. I have reminded the First Minister and all members of the need to treat one another with courtesy and respect. Let us carry on our session in that manner.”
“The Scottish Government’s budget, which Mr Findlay did not support, has made available financial support and assistance for the delivery of projects under the project willow umbrella, which will secure the future of the Grangemouth site. I return to my fundamental point that the quickest and best thing that can happen is approval of the carbon capture and storage project at Grangemouth. I hope that Mr Findlay will make up for the failure of the Conservative Government by supporting my call for that today. The Presiding Officer: I remind all members of the need to treat one another with courtesy and respect and to be very careful about the language that they use to describe other members.”
“In November of last year, Mr Findlay voted for carbon reduction targets in this Parliament, but when his United Kingdom Government leader questioned their merits—not just questioned but actually suggested that those targets be dumped—Mr Findlay called that refreshingly honest. I call it barefaced dishonesty in front of the people of this country to vote for climate change targets one minute—[Interruption.] The Presiding Officer: Let us hear the First Minister. The First Minister: —and press this Government to act on those targets and then, on the instructions of the Conservative leader, desert the field when the going gets tough.”
“Instead of learning lessons from the SNP’s harmful approach to oil and gas, the Labour Government is copying it. Even senior Labour figures and the trade unions can see it. Tony Blair says that Labour’s approach is “doomed to fail”, and the GMB says: “Just switching off investment in the North Sea is absolute madness.” John Swinney expresses solidarity with Grangemouth workers, but Unite the union says: “John Swinney and Anas Sarwar will face the wrath of voters for their broken promises to the workers and the people of Grangemouth.” Labour’s copycat approach will cost more Scottish jobs, increase bills and do more to harm the environment by requiring energy to be imported from overseas. Does John Swinney agree that Labour should in fact do the very opposite of what the SNP is doing? The First Minister: Mr Findlay talks about honesty.”
“The judgments that have been issued, which have led to the United Kingdom Government’s having to revisit parts of its process for determining such applications, have underlined the importance of carrying out such an assessment. We cannot deny the realities of what we as a society face, and the Government will support industry to transition to that reality. The best thing that we can all do in this Parliament is to argue for the approval of the Acorn carbon capture and storage project, which the Conservatives refused to authorise when they were in office. The quicker we get Acorn approved, the better for Scotland’s climate strategy. Russell Findlay: We are being honest with the public about the cost of net zero, but the SNP is not—that is the difference.”