Alison Johnstone
No Party Affiliation · Scotland
“We will use the same voting procedure as before. Members voted by secret ballot. The Presiding Officer: Voting in this round of the Presiding Officer election is closed. I invite the scrutineers to proceed to the back of the chamber for the counting of votes. Again, candidates may also observe the count.”
“I now invite any scrutineers appointed by the candidates to go to the back of the chamber to observe the counting of ballot papers. Candidates may also observe the count.”
“The first meeting of the seventh session of the Parliament is resumed. I have received four valid nominations for the position of Presiding Officer. I shall now announce the nominations and ask all candidates, as their names are announced, to make themselves known to the chamber.”
“Ballot papers should be marked with an X before being folded and then placed in one of the ballot boxes provided at the rear of the chamber. At the end of each voting period, I shall invite any scrutineers that have been nominated by each candidate to monitor the counting of votes at the back of the chamber, which is where clerks will emp…”
“Members should remain in their seats until I invite them to collect their ballot paper from clerks at the back of the chamber. Members with surnames beginning with the letters A to F should collect their ballot papers from the desk on my left at the back of the chamber—the clerks there have their hands up.”
“15:29 On resuming— The Presiding Officer: This voting period is now open, using the same voting procedure as before. Members voted by secret ballot. The Presiding Officer: Voting in the third round of the election of the Presiding Officer is closed.”
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“The next item of business is consideration of business motion S6M-16264, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on changes to the business programme. Motion moved, That the Parliament agrees to the following revision to the programme of business for Tuesday 28 January 2025— after followed by Topical Questions (if selected) insert followed by Ministerial Statement: Response to Storm Éowyn.—[Jamie Hepburn] Motion agreed to. Topical Question Time 14:03 Unauthorised Absences (Schools) 1.”
“As an ambassador for the trust, I pledge to help to ensure that my generation remembers the 6 million men, women and children who were killed in the Holocaust, and, as survivors grow fewer and frailer, to keep their memories alive. Thank you so much for inviting us to be here today to share our experience and reflections on why Holocaust education is so important for young people. [Applause.] Business Motion 14:03”
“As we mark the 80th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz, I know that survivors will not be able to share their stories forever. As the younger generation, we are committed to the responsibility of ensuring that those stories live on by sharing testimonies such as Eva’s. Sarah-Jane McKeown (Holocaust Educational Trust): Our next steps project is an assembly that we will share with our whole school. We want to emphasise the importance of commemorating this day every year, especially since it is the 80th anniversary. To this day, people deny the Holocaust, and we want our fellow students to know that it really happened and that there is much evidence to prove that. Through the trust, we have heard from survivors and have seen the sites, so we are committed to safeguarding the future of Holocaust education.”
“Seeing the site truly put into perspective the stories of victims and the scale of the Holocaust. One moment that has stayed with me was walking into the room with piles of human hair and other belongings from victims of the camp. Shaving the heads of victims was one of the first ways that they were stripped of their humanity. That brought home to me the importance of rehumanising victims of the Holocaust and remembering individual stories. We were privileged to hear from survivor Eva Clarke BEM. Eva was born in Mauthausen concentration camp in 1945, weighing only three pounds. Her mother acted as an incubator, using her body warmth to keep Eva alive. Hearing Eva’s testimony made me grateful for the life that I live.”
“Good afternoon. The first item of business is time for reflection, and our time for reflection leaders are Mirrin Kirkpatrick and Sarah-Jane McKeown, who are Holocaust Educational Trust ambassadors. Mirrin Kirkpatrick (Holocaust Educational Trust): My name is Mirrin Kirkpatrick, and this is Sarah-Jane McKeown, and we are ambassadors for the Holocaust Educational Trust. We took part in the trust’s lessons from Auschwitz project as students from Dumfries high school. As part of the project, we heard from a Holocaust survivor and took part in a one-day visit to former Nazi concentration and death camp Auschwitz- Birkenau. On our return, we are sharing what we have learned with our school. Visiting Auschwitz was an experience that I will never forget.”
“There is one question to be put as a result of today’s business. The question is, that motion S6M-16120, in the name of Christine Grahame, on the Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill at stage 3, be agreed to. As it is a motion to pass the bill, the question must be decided by division, so there will be a brief suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system. 18:12 Meeting suspended. 18:14 On resuming— The Presiding Officer: We come to the vote on motion S6M-16120, in the name of Christine Grahame, on the Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill at stage 3. Members should cast their votes now. The vote is closed.”
“Thank you, colleagues. I call Ariane Burgess to resume. Ariane Burgess: Our farm animals must be cared for to the highest standard throughout their entire lives, and not deemed worthy of less welfare than our pets. There can also be no more excuses for the illegal persecution of the iconic birds of prey in our countryside. The welfare of our marine life is also often forgotten but, from fish, dolphins and whales to the smallest creatures in the sea, all need protection. The bill is an important step towards ensuring a high level of welfare for all animals, so, again, I am really appreciative of Christine Grahame for her work on the bill, and for all her work during her time in Parliament to address the welfare of animals and to give them a voice. 17:58”
“Section 1—Ministers to make code of practice The Presiding Officer: Group 1 is on the content of code relating to all dogs. Amendment 12, in the name of Ross Greer, is grouped with amendments 13, 14, 5, 6 and 16 to 19. 15:45”
“The next item of business is stage 3 of the Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill. In dealing with the amendments, members should have the bill as amended at stage 2—Scottish Parliament bill 32A—the marshalled list and the groupings of amendments. The division bell will sound and proceedings will be suspended for around five minutes before the first division of stage 3. The period of voting for the first division will be 45 seconds. Thereafter, I will allow a voting period of one minute for the first division after a debate. Members who wish to speak in the debate on a group of amendments should press their request- to-speak buttons or enter RTS in the chat as soon as possible after I have called the first amendment in the group. Members should now refer to the marshalled list of amendments.”
“Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3 15:43”
“The next item of business is consideration of business motion S6M-16187, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on a stage 3 timetable for the Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill. Motion moved, That the Parliament agrees that, during stage 3 of the Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill, debate on groups of amendments shall, subject to Rule 9.8.4A, be brought to a conclusion by the time limits indicated, those time limits being calculated from when the stage begins and excluding any periods when other business is under consideration or when a meeting of the Parliament is suspended (other than a suspension following the first division in the stage being called) or otherwise not in progress: Groups 1 to 3: 1 hour 5 minutes Groups 4 to 6: 1 hour 40 minutes.—[Jamie Hepburn] Motion agreed to.”
“The cabinet secretary will now take questions on the issues that were raised in her statement. I intend to allow about 20 minutes for questions.”
“Fundamentally, what matters to the people of Scotland today is that they have a Government that is focused on the concerns of the people, on making sure that we strengthen the national health service—[Interruption.] The Presiding Officer: We will hear the First Minister. The First Minister: —and on bringing down waiting times. That is the focus of the First Minister and the health secretary. The Conservatives do not care about that, but I certainly do. National Health Service 2.”
“The First Minister: On the basis of that fact, I judge that Neil Gray, in taking the action that he has taken, has acted entirely appropriately in his responsibilities to Parliament and in accordance with the ministerial code. Of course, it is up to the independent advisers whom I have appointed to take a different view from the one that I have taken—I will be inviting my independent advisers to consider the view that I have taken, and they will be free to take that decision. That is why I have strengthened the ministerial code, it is why I have strengthened the independent advisers and it is why I have appointed three individuals of eminent reputation to make sure that they can scrutinise these questions.”
“The First Minister: It is important that we put this matter in its proper context. The issue that Neil Gray had to address in Parliament on Tuesday revolved around one word that was inserted in his answer to Stephen Kerr during his parliamentary statement. That one word was the word “all”—a three-letter word—[Interruption.] The Presiding Officer: Let us hear the First Minister. The First Minister: In his answer to Neil Bibby and in his original parliamentary statement, there was no issue about the language used by Neil Gray. In one answer, Neil Gray used one word that he should not have used—the word “all”— [Interruption.] The Presiding Officer: I would be grateful if those of us who are privileged to sit in the chamber could treat one another with courtesy and respect.”
“Russell Findlay: That is just textbook John Swinney—failing to answer the most simple of questions. If we did not keep raising the issue, Neil Gray would never have admitted that he had misled Parliament over taxpayer-funded limos to the football. That flagrant breach must be investigated by the independent adviser on the ministerial code. John Swinney is standing by Neil Gray, just as he backed Michael Matheson and Humza Yousaf. Patients will continue to be let down by another dishonest, disgraced and distracted health secretary who is failing to bring down waiting lists. In the real world, if people cannot do their jobs properly or do not tell the truth, they get the sack. Is it not time for John Swinney to show some leadership by sending Neil Gray—in a chauffeur- driven limo, if he likes—to collect his P45?”
“The First Minister: All those issues have been set out to Parliament. The health secretary made a statement to Parliament—[Interruption.] The Presiding Officer: Let us hear the First Minister. The First Minister: The health secretary came here and raised a point of order on Tuesday, when it was clear from the points that had been raised by the Conservative and Labour members that there was an issue in relation to his original statement. I have dealt with those questions accordingly. I say to Mr Findlay and to members of the public around the country that they should be assured that their First Minister and their health secretary are absolutely focused on delivering the leadership that is necessary to strengthen and to improve the national health service and to deliver for patients. That is my commitment to Parliament today.”
“I would be grateful if members could avoid shouting out in the chamber. Russell Findlay: With that answer, the First Minister confirms that he is in a state of denial. He appears to have given a free pass to his distracted health secretary, no matter what he does. This afternoon, the planned national care service that Neil Gray is supposed to be in charge of will be scrapped, without having treated a single patient and with tens of millions of pounds down the drain. Neil Gray is giving Humza Yousaf and Michael Matheson a run for their money as the SNP’s worst health secretary. He misled Parliament, but he did not come clean straight away. The truth had to be dragged out of him by the Scottish Conservatives. I have a simple question: when exactly did John Swinney first know that Neil Gray had misled Parliament?”
“The Presiding Officer: I remind members that if the amendment in the name of Alasdair Allan is agreed to, the amendments in the name of Sarah Boyack and Liam McArthur will fall. The next question is, that amendment S6M- 16171.3, in the name of Alasdair Allan, which seeks to amend motion S6M-16171, in the name of Douglas Lumsden, on ensuring that communities are at the heart of the electricity consenting process, be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Presiding Officer: There will be a division. The vote is closed.”
“Motion, as amended, agreed to, That the Parliament notes the ongoing concern at reported cases of violence against pupils and staff, and disruption in schools, and the need for action to help restore positive learning environments in which all young people and teachers are safe to learn and teach in a respectful and supported setting; welcomes the publication of the joint national action plan with COSLA in August 2024, which set out a range of actions needed to be taken at both local and national levels to address violence in schools, alongside the Scottish Government's action plan on tackling violence and verbal abuse in schools; recognises the importance of the Scottish Government and local authorities working together to facilitate an environment in which all young people are safe to learn, develop and grow; notes the Scottish Government national guidance on mobile phones in schools, which empowers headteachers to take decisions on banning mobile phone use in schools; agrees with the importance of ensuring that children are protected from online harms; notes the importance of ensuring that children and young people are able to share their perspective on their education, and calls on all partners to continue working closely with the Scottish Government to improve behaviour and relationships in schools.”
“For Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Gillian Mackay] Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Rona Mackay] Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Jamie Hepburn] McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Jamie Hepburn] McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Against Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Abstentions Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab) Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) The Presiding Officer: The result of the division on motion S6M-16170, in the name of Miles Briggs, on delivering school environments where it is safe for pupils to learn and teachers to teach, as amended, is: For 69, Against 30, Abstentions 26.”
“Amendment agreed to. The Presiding Officer: Amendment S6M- 16170.2, in the name of Pam Duncan-Glancy, falls. The next question is, that motion S6M-16170, in the name of Miles Briggs, on delivering school environments where it is safe for pupils to learn and teachers to teach, as amended, be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“We move to the vote on amendment S6M- 16170.3, in the name of Natalie Don-Innes, which seeks to amend motion S6M-16170, in the name of Miles Briggs. Members should cast their votes now. For Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Gillian Mackay] Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Rona Mackay] Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Jamie Hepburn] McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Jamie Hepburn] McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Against Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Abstentions Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab) Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) The Presiding Officer: The result of the division on amendment S6M-16170.3, in the name of Natalie Don-Innes, is: For 68, Against 31, Abstentions 25.”
“There are eight questions to be put as a result of today’s business. If the amendment in the name of Natalie Don- Innes is agreed to, the amendment in the name of Pam Duncan-Glancy will fall. The first question is, that amendment S6M- 16170.3, in the name of Natalie Don-Innes, which seeks to amend motion S6M-16170, in the name of Miles Briggs, on delivering school environments where it is safe for pupils to learn and teachers to teach, be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Presiding Officer: There will be a division. There will be a short suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system. 17:19 Meeting suspended. 17:22 On resuming— The Presiding Officer: I remind members that if the amendment in the name of Natalie Don- Innes is agreed to, the amendment in the name of Pam Duncan-Glancy will fall.”
“The next item of business is consideration of Parliamentary Bureau motion S6M-16186, on committee membership. I ask Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, to move the motion. Motion moved, That the Parliament agrees that— Keith Brown be appointed as a member of the Education, Children and Young People Committee; and Evelyn Tweed be appointed to replace Colin Beattie as a member of the Rural Affairs and Islands Committee. The Presiding Officer: The question on the motion will be put at decision time. Decision Time 17:18”
“Motion agreed to. Parliamentary Bureau Motion 17:18”
“4) Bill followed by Committee Announcements followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members’ Business Wednesday 5 February 2025 2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.00 pm Portfolio Questions: Deputy First Minister Responsibilities, Economy and Gaelic; Finance and Local Government followed by Scottish Government Business followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by Approval of SSIs (if required) 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members’ Business Thursday 6 February 2025 11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions 11.40 am General Questions 12.00 pm First Minister’s Questions followed by Members’ Business 2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.30 pm Portfolio Questions: Net Zero and Energy, and Transport followed by Scottish Government Business followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time (b) that, for the purposes of Portfolio Questions in the week beginning 27 January 2025, in rule 13.7.3, after the word “except” the words “to the extent to which the Presiding Officer considers that the questions are on the same or similar subject matter or” are inserted.”
“The next item of business is consideration of business motion S6M-16185, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme. Motion moved, That the Parliament agrees— (a) the following programme of business— Tuesday 28 January 2025 2.00 pm Time for Reflection followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by Topical Questions (if selected) followed by Scottish Government Debate: Investing in Public Services Through the Scottish Budget followed by Committee Announcements followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members’ Business Wednesday 29 January 2025 2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.00 pm Portfolio Questions: Constitution, External Affairs and Culture, and Parliamentary Business; Justice and Home Affairs followed by Scottish Labour Party Business followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by Approval of SSIs (if required) 5.10 pm Decision Time followed by Members’ Business Thursday 30 January 2025 11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions 11.40 am General Questions 12.00 pm First Minister’s Questions followed by Members’ Business 2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.00 pm Portfolio Questions: Education and Skills followed by Ministerial Statement: Creative Scotland Multi-Year Funding followed by Finance and Public Administration Committee Debate: Scottish Budget 2025-26 followed by Appointment of Board Members to Environmental Standards Scotland followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time Tuesday 4 February 2025 2.00 pm Time for Reflection followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by Topical Questions (if selected) followed by Stage 1 Debate: Budget (Scotland) (No.”
“I would be grateful if colleagues could listen to Mr Kerr. Please resume, Mr Kerr. Stephen Kerr: To ask the Scottish Government what its position is on whether Neil Gray corrected the Official Report of 14 November 2024 at the earliest opportunity, as required by the Scottish ministerial code, in light of its response to a freedom of information request, dated 13 December 2024, confirming that there were no recorded minutes or notes for some events attended by ministers, including one attended by Neil Gray.”
“Undergrounding power line costs between five and 10 times more than overhead lines and causes more environmental damage.” Utility companies such as SSEN, whose representatives are with us today, that are making commitments to community benefit need to be held to their word. They will save money through overgrounding, so communities need to benefit from those choices. I welcome the fact that SSEN has committed £100 million already. We need to work with the grain of that and ensure that communities get a good deal from what is going on, but we are not going to get that from Mr Lumsden and his colleagues. Their only interest is in division and right-wing rhetoric, and that is a disgrace. 16:54”
“There must be an understanding and an acceptance that we need transmission infrastructure, but there absolutely are wins that communities can get if they are supported by MSPs, councillors and others to engage with the companies and to win those benefits. A number of members—including Liam McArthur, Sarah Boyack and Christine Grahame— spoke about community benefits. The recommendation of the review that was conducted in 2023 by Nick Winser, the electricity networks commissioner, was that communities should get financial benefits from transmission, both lump sums for householders and community benefit funds. The commissioner said: “There is every opportunity to be generous with these payments.”
“[Interruption.] The Presiding Officer: Let us hear Mr Ruskell. Mark Ruskell: I was there at the time when the Beauly-Denny line was going through pre- application consultation, and it went to public local inquiry. I was there throughout all those years working with communities, and it was very painful. The only positive thing to come out of that was that the communities that recognised that they could influence the project—that they could get substations moved and get investment in the landscape—were the communities that engaged with the utility company and cross-party MSPs, including myself; they got benefits as a result of that.”
“Let us hear Mr Ruskell. Mark Ruskell: I advise Mr Kerr, Rachael Hamilton and others to go back and read the comments made by former Conservative energy ministers at Westminster, who underlined the fact that undergrounding will cost between five and 10 times the cost of overhead lines and that it has substantial environmental impacts, as we saw in the debate on the Beauly-Denny line all those years ago. We are now seeing a shift to populist rhetoric, which is very disappointing. Douglas Lumsden tried to pull that back a bit. He said that we are in the chamber today to talk about solutions that “empower” communities. However, I did not hear any solutions from the Tories. What I heard was a call for an endless public inquiry, where they can rant, shout and drive communities into an expensive, costly and debilitating process for years on end.”
“Amendment disagreed to. The Presiding Officer: The final question is, that motion S6M-16160, in the name of Shirley- Anne Somerville, on compensation for WASPI women, be agreed to. Motion agreed to, That the Parliament calls on the UK Government to compensate Women Against State Pension Inequality (WASPI) women as recommended by the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman. The Presiding Officer: That concludes decision time. European Showmen’s Union Congress 2025”
“For Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Gillian Mackay] Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Rona Mackay] Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Jamie Hepburn] McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Jamie Hepburn] McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) The Presiding Officer: The result of the division on amendment S6M-16160.1, in the name of Paul O’Kane, is: For 52, Against 72, Abstentions 0.”
“We move on to the two questions that are to be put as a result of today’s business. The first question is, that amendment S6M-16160.1, in the name of Paul O’Kane, which seeks to amend motion S6M-16160, in the name of Shirley-Anne Somerville, on compensation for WASPI women— women against state pension inequality—be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Presiding Officer: There will be a division. There will be a short suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system. 17:04 Meeting suspended. 17:07 On resuming— The Presiding Officer: We come to the vote on amendment S6M-16160.1, in the name of Paul O’Kane. Members should cast their votes now. The vote is closed.”
“Thank you, cabinet secretary. As you have noted, a member can seek to correct any inaccuracy on their part within 20 days of the publication of the Official Report of the relevant proceedings. Clearly, that time has passed. I have not yet had an opportunity to read the letter that the cabinet secretary has sent. However, the cabinet secretary has now put the matter on the record. In order to ensure that the correction is as widely known as possible, I encourage him and welcome his intention to write to me, and I ask that he also write to the business managers and to any members who are not represented on the Parliamentary Bureau and ensure that a copy rests with the Scottish Parliament information centre.”
“The next item of business is consideration of business motion S6M-16184, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on changes to business. Any member who wishes to speak to the motion should press their request-to-speak button now. I invite Jamie Hepburn to move the motion. 16:59”
“The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-16160, in the name of Shirley-Anne Somerville, on Women Against State Pension Inequality. Members who wish to speak in the debate should press their request-to-speak buttons.”
“Thank you, Mr Kerr. Members are aware that the content of contributions is not normally a matter for the chair to rule on. It is a matter of paramount importance that members, including ministers, give accurate and truthful information to the Parliament and correct any inadvertent errors at the earliest opportunity. If a member has a question about the factual accuracy of another member’s contribution, they can, of course, raise it directly with that member. Members are aware that the Parliament has a corrections procedure and of how that mechanism operates.”
“Perhaps we need to reflect on our behaviour as a species and realise that, if we are to successfully share this planet with everything else that calls it home, we need to share nicely and show that we care, otherwise it may also get taken away. Thank you. Topical Question Time Flu Vaccine 1.”
“At other times, it is about making something and being proud of yourself, taking the first step towards a new career or painting the first flat that you have lived in without your abusive partner. Sharing gives people access. Access creates opportunity. Opportunity changes lives. Sharing objects is only the starting point. Access enables behaviour change and a change in culture. It is leading to a shift away from linear consumption to a more circular way of use and reuse. We share tools to fix, maintain and create, to decarbonise homes, to improve communal spaces and to learn new skills. To go back to my children, we have recently introduced a new policy to stop the squabbling—if they cannot share something nicely, it gets taken away.”
“One of the Edinburgh Tool Library drills has been shared by more than 250 different people. They did not actually need a drill—they needed a hole in their wall. Our members have now borrowed items more than 60,000 times, saving money, reducing their environmental impact and avoiding the need to store, maintain and repair items. Sharing promotes access over excess, or as Edgar Cahn, the father of the Timebanking movement, said: “We have what we need, if we use what we have.” Every time we share something, that tool helps to create a little shared history. Sometimes it is as simple as helping to cut the grass. Sometimes it is installing a wider cat flap when the cat puts on a little weight.”
“Good afternoon. The first item of business is time for reflection, and our time for reflection leader is Chris Hellawell, director of the Edinburgh Tool Library. Chris Hellawell (Edinburgh Tool Library): Presiding Officer, members of the Scottish Parliament, thank you for the opportunity to address you this afternoon. I am the parent of a one-year-old and a four- year-old, so sharing is a hot topic in our household. It is one of the most fundamental things that we instil in children, and the mantra “sharing is caring” is repeated in every home, so why is it so much harder for adults to follow? The Edinburgh Tool Library shares tools with our community. Cordless drills are used on average for only 13 minutes in their lifetime, yet they have a carbon footprint of 26kg and cost at least £50.”
“There is one question to be put as a result of today’s business. The question is, that motion S6M-16085, in the name of Jackson Carlaw, on behalf of the Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee, on an inquiry into the A9 dualling programme, be agreed to. Motion agreed to, That the Parliament notes the conclusions and recommendations of the Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee’s 2nd Report, 2024 (Session 6), Inquiry into the A9 Dualling Programme (SP Paper 669), including the recommendation that a dedicated committee should be established to provide oversight and maintain momentum on scrutiny of long-running, multi-session infrastructure projects, such as the A9 dualling programme. The Presiding Officer: That concludes decision time. Health and Social Care (Rural Scotland)”
“What the public can expect from me, as First Minister, is my unrelenting focus, working with the health secretary, on ensuring that we deliver the improvements and developments that will ensure that patients get the care that they require and that they are supported in receiving the care that is necessary to address their health circumstances at all times. Royal College of Nursing Report 2.”
“As a consequence, we have been leading a process of supporting our territorial boards and the Scottish Ambulance Service. I know from the review call that I chaired last night that there has been a significant improvement in the delivery of healthcare in emergency situations as a consequence of the reduction in the number of flu cases that I have mentioned. I am grateful to members of the public for their co-operation in ensuring that they secure the right care in the right place, and I am profoundly grateful to staff for working so hard during an incredibly difficult and demanding period. Mr Findlay asks what the public can expect of the Government.”
“Another said: “We are putting Scottish Government targets before patients and it needs to stop.” What does John Swinney have to say to the nurses who are being let down and to the patients who are having to suffer such disgusting and degrading treatment? The First Minister: I cited the flu rates because they were at their peak during the period in which the RCN survey was undertaken, which put the greatest burden on emergency care in the national health service. The evidence that I have put to the Parliament is directly related to the questions that Mr Findlay has put to me. I accept and acknowledge the enormity of the pressure on the NHS. I have been completely candid with the Parliament about that over a number of weeks.”
“To say that what is in the RCN report is to do with the fact that it covers a period in which we faced a flu epidemic, rather than inaction, is absolutely preposterous. Patients expect and deserve dignity and decency from the NHS, but nurses say that they cannot provide the treatment that is needed. I would like the First Minister to please listen to what nurses are saying. I have read the report, and I encourage him to do so. One nurse describes being “disgusted and ashamed that this was the best we could offer a 91 year old lady.” Another describes being “embarrassed and ashamed” at leaving a 100-year-old woman on a trolley in discomfort.”
“Members. The First Minister: —and the expansion of NHS 24 services, which was a key recommendation of the redesign of urgent care programme. What has helped us in this incredibly difficult period has been the fact that members of the public have followed the advice that the Government has issued, which is to secure the right care in the right place. That has reduced the level of demand that is prevalent in some emergency settings and has enabled us to provide the support that individuals require. That is what we have to do to navigate through periods of increased demand, such as the one that we have just experienced. Russell Findlay: I really do not know where to begin with that answer.”