Sir Stephen Timms
MP for East Ham · Labour · United Kingdom
“I agree with the hon. Gentleman. If he would like to send me details of that particular case, I will happily look into it. On the subject of people with hearing impairments, my right hon. Friend the Minister for Women and Equalities and I will be meeting the British Sign Language Advisory Board this afternoon.”
“Better outcomes require early identification and support for girls and young women with special educational needs, including dyslexia. That is the aim of the SEND reforms and the development of national inclusion standards.”
“Autistic people and people with ADHD have been struggling to get the right support at the right time. Recommendations from Professor Karen Guldberg’s neurodivergence task and finish group directly informed the SEND reforms that were published earlier this year.”
“The Equality Act 2010 places a duty on public bodies to make reasonable adjustments, so that disabled people are not put at a disadvantage by accessibility challenges.”
“The hon. Gentleman raises an important point. This benefit is there to contribute to the additional costs of disability. Too often, what has happened—my hon.”
“I think we can take the hon. Member’s question as a tacit recognition that in 14 years the previous Government should have done something to fix these problems. The steering group is clear that the provision of cash to meet the additional costs of disability is vital.”
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“Q 17 I have three questions to ask at the beginning. I think the first one is mainly to Octavia. We heard this morning from Women Like Us that the agreed flexibilities in the conditionality around lone parents at the jobcentre are being withdrawn. What is the experience of people who have been in touch with Gingerbread about the application of the lone parent flexibilities? I do not think that there has been any change of policy. Are there things that could be done to ensure that lone parents can benefit from the flexibilities that they should benefit from? Octavia Holland: The feedback that we have had through our advice line and through our membership body, which is now some 60,000 single parents, is that there is huge variability in how the lone parent flexibilities are applied.”
“Q 18 To clarify, in your discussions with Department for Work and Pensions officials, there is still the intention that those flexibilities will be available but your experience, in practice, is that they are quite often not? Octavia Holland: Yes, absolutely. To clarify, it is even quite difficult to establish where in guidance those lone parent flexibilities are now. They are in disparate pieces of guidance that are given to jobcentres and work coaches. It is not like you can get your hands on one piece of guidance that says, “Look, if you want to support a single parent into a decent job, these are the kind of things you want to consider.” There is a real lack of clear information.”
“That is consistent with the impacts of many of the other reforms such as the spare room subsidy, or the bedroom tax, or the lower uprating of benefit, which add quite small impacts and probably did not have a behaviour effect.”
“Having intensive, adviser-led support to help people move back into work led to a larger-again impact on the likelihood of people moving into work. It highlights the importance of joining up the support you deliver and ensuring that those who are affected by reforms also get access to appropriate support to move back into work. With the lowering of the cap, there will be more people with quite small losses compared with what happened under the previous cap. In those groups with small losses, the evidence found a far smaller impact. It was a negligible—pretty much a zero—impact on people whose losses were £10, £20 or £30 a week.”
“That was the average. It was greater where the financial impacts were greater, which is what one would expect. The benefit cap is probably one of the only measures in the last Parliament that created a really strong financial incentive to move into work. Out of all the welfare reform measures, if you move into work, you get your benefit back, essentially. You get your £200 or £300 income back. To some extent, it might be surprising that there was not a greater impact. The impact in terms of actual numbers was relatively small. More interesting still, we evaluated a programme called the Brent Navigator. Brent Council invested in adviser support to help capped households back into work. We used a statistical technique to try to find the additional impact of that, and we estimated that that had about a 50% positive impact.”
“They were greater in London than in other parts of the country, so things you would intuitively expect to see. However, there are a couple of points. One is that the total numbers moving into work are very low. This is a group where the likelihood of entering work, where you have been capped, is very low. A percentage increase in the likelihood of moving into work, you might see a 30% or 40% increase in likelihood of entering work. But if your likelihood was originally one in 20, then that might increase to only about one in 15 and still look like a very large impact. The research found percentage points. If you like, the absolute impact of the cap on the likelihood of entering work was pretty small—it was three or four percentage points. In other words, out of every 100 people capped, an additional three or four may move into work.”
“Q 20 This is a question mainly for Tony. We are told that there is evidence that the benefit cap has encouraged some people to go into work who would not otherwise have done so. Can you tell us how compelling you think that evidence is, and how big an effect there appears to have been from the application of the benefit cap? Tony Wilson: The Department published some ad hoc analysis about a year ago on the estimated impacts of the benefit cap. That was peer-reviewed by the Institute for Fiscal Studies. That was a good piece of work and it did show a statistically significant positive impact on some people in households affected by the benefit cap, on the likelihood of their moving off benefit and in to work. It showed some interesting things. It showed that those impacts were greater where the financial impact of the cap was greater.”
“We have far more information about their distance from the labour market, so there is some real learning about how we put in place a financial model that means we are able to invest more up front and perhaps less in the sustained employment element, because ESA people do stick in employment once they are there.”
“The targets put in place were best guesses by the officials, based on a far better economic scenario than we had at the beginning of the Work programme. Performance has been improving in relation to ESA. In fact, all targets have been met across all the providers—it is quite difficult to say bad performance or good performance, because we did not actually know what to expect in relation to performance. We need to do things differently next time in relation to people on employment and support allowance. We know that, once they get into work, they stick in work.”
“Q 21 A final question from me to Kirsty. The note we had from the Clerks tells us that the proportion of Work programme participants who have secured sustainable job outcomes has been almost 25% for people on jobseeker’s allowance, but less than 10% for people on employment and support allowance. Looking back on the experience of the Work programme, why do you think performance has been so poor for that particular group? What are the lessons for the future design of the Work programme to try to do a better job next time round? Kirsty McHugh: The first thing to bear in mind is that the majority of people on ESA who are put into the Work programme have not received any support before at all.”
“There is some interesting work going on with the behavioural insights unit and others about how we actually change the mindset and de-risk it, potentially, in their minds—it should not be risky but sometimes it is perceived as being so—so that they are more likely to take on people with disabilities. It is not just one thing, but a whole series of things. It is a huge cultural shift but I am very pleased that the Government have said that they want to do it.”
“Q 22 One of the interesting things about this discussion in the context of the Bill is the Government’s objective to halve the disability employment gap. Is it not clear that we would have to do much better than the 10% that has come out of the Work programme if we were to get anywhere close to halving that gap? Kirsty McHugh: It is a hugely positive move from the Government to say that they want to do that. It is hugely ambitious. At the moment that means an additional 1.1 million people with disabilities into work. That means looking at the assessment regime, the interaction of the assessment regime with the employment support regime and the finances. It also means looking at the demand side from employers.”
“Q 86 Can you give us an example of the use of Access to Work for people with mental health problems? What are the kinds of things that you are able to do to help? Gareth Parry: A whole range of things. I am just wondering, in the interests of brevity, whether that is something that I should do outside this meeting. We can send you a whole load of case studies and examples of what we did.”
“So that is the sense that we get from the forecast that our chief economist does at the British Chambers of Commerce.”
“Q 1 I welcome you all to our Committee. This is probably a question for Marcus in the first instance. The Bill requires the Government to report on progress towards full employment. How do you think full employment should be defined? What is the right definition for this purpose? Marcus Mason: I will give that a stab. We all know that full employment can be defined in different ways, with different levels of full employment in different countries. In that sense, we very much think that full employment is a moving target. Our latest economic forecast shows unemployment reaching around 5% by 2017 and flattening out to 5% in Q2 2018. As a result, we feel that a level of unemployment of around maybe 5% to 4.5% is probably the point where, if you went below that, you might start causing inflationary pressures.”
“I understand about work and I am not patronising that as a job role but, when you are reporting on a number, you have to dig deeper than that number. How much of that 3 million is dedicated to higher skills? My interest particularly comes with those young people who are “okay”. How do you use apprenticeships to progress them through a lifelong learning route, as the Prime Minister said when he released the new apprenticeship standards nearly two years ago? The idea is lifelong learning. Those people in those low-level jobs are put in there just to gain money for skills, for training. This is my opinion, but what is the route out? How does that help social mobility, when people are just turning a job role into an apprenticeship? That is not right.”
“I am part of the digital Trailblazers group and have worked tirelessly for two years creating new digital apprenticeship standards for the sector. Purely in my opinion, what you are starting to see with those new standards being released is that, for the tech sector particularly, the high-level skills that are needed are stuck at the moment. So the apprenticeship reforms in Trailblazers are making the ability for us to release and get young people on to Trailblazers really difficult, because we cannot get the standards through. All of us who are interested in apprenticeships then look at myriad examples, such as apprenticeship barman and of apprenticeships in really low skills. How is that an apprenticeship?”
“Q 8 I want to ask a question about apprenticeships. This is really a question to Rebecca. We gather that you are concerned that the only way the 3 million apprenticeships target will be hit is if quite a lot of the apprenticeships are rather poor quality. Could you explain to us why you have that fear? Could you also tell us what it would take, in your view, to deliver both the target and the quality that all of us would want to see? Rebecca Plant: I have been involved heavily with apprenticeships over the past six years, with the previous Government and the coalition really putting their hands around it and making it a credible work route. Specifically, my interest is around young people. The concern comes from sitting in the middle of some really heavy apprenticeship reforms that are taking place currently with Trailblazers.”
“Q 9 What would it take to deliver the target and the quality? How do we avoid that problem? Rebecca Plant: In my personal opinion, the target should be broken down into levels of skills, so that higher level—level 4—degree apprenticeships should be broken out and there should be clarity. There should be some reflection on how that matches the skills gaps. Employers talk about skills gaps until they are going blue in the face. How does that work? With the lower sector, I would look at entry and ensuring that there were full-time job contracts at the end of those apprenticeships. I would ensure the commitment from the employer to keep training and to move that young person through. I am sorry that my answers are woolly. I am not very good at this.”
“There needs to be an onboarding Work programme into an apprenticeship so that, no matter where you come from in your life, you have a level playing field with everybody else. That is what my particular passion is.”
“That was a good answer. Rebecca Plant: I would break it down and give transparency. What is a level 2 apprenticeship? What are people signing up to? Badging level 2 programmes as an apprenticeship is fundamentally wrong. That should be an entry point into an apprenticeship but there needs to be tightening up of these low-skilled, dead-end, monotonous jobs for these poor people. Finally, just to add, traineeships should not count towards that 3 million at all. The traineeship piece is a really good on-ramp for some people, but does it lead to real job opportunities at the end? I question that completely. It is hard for employers to digest the traineeship, in my opinion.”
“In the report that is going to be delivered under the provisions of the Bill, we need to be sophisticated in recording how significant and sustained progress has been made. It is about not only single factors such as whether someone has got back into employment, but what has happened to that family across all their needs to help them move forward.”
“We worked on mum’s relationship with the 14-year-old, we got the two-year-old into nursery provision, and we got the mum on a debt repayment scheme so that she could manage her finances better and got her counselling through the local GP service. We did as much as we could to address as many of that family’s problems as possible. The good news is that the relationship with the 14-year-old is much better and she is now back in school, the two-year-old is doing well in nursery and things are looking up for her, and that family is making progress. I make those comments because in the current troubled families programme, one measure of success is to look at whether we can demonstrate significant and sustained progress.”
“The 14-year-old was missing a lot of school and had had three exclusions from school over the past year; there were problems with mum’s relationship with the 14-year-old. There were concerns about mum’s mental health. Mum was also in debt. I would say that in a lot of ways, that is a typical troubled family. It shows the range of issues with which the family is grappling. Mum has not worked for more than 14 years, and is on benefits. In order to make a difference to that family, we cannot just focus on getting mum back into work or getting the 14-year-old back into school; we need to think about all the issues that that family has and try to address as many of them as we can at the same time.”
“We strongly support the troubled families programme inasmuch as it supports and helps fund family support. I begin my comments by saying that troubled families are inevitably complex families, with a range of difficulties that they need help to manage. If you will permit me a quick case study, we worked with a single-parent family: a mum with daughters aged 14 and two. The mum had experienced domestic violence in previous relationships and had had to leave where she was living. She had come with her two daughters into an area where she did not have support networks or family; she was quite isolated. The two-year-old was sharing a bed with mum. There was a lot of poverty in the family, and there were concerns about parenting and the child’s development, including her not meeting speech and language milestones.”
“Q 17 I would like to ask David and Geoff about the troubled families programme. The Bill requires the Secretary of State to report on the progress made by households benefiting from the programme. I would be interested to know how you think progress should be measured. What is success for a family who have been in the troubled families programme? How fair, in your view, is the criticism I have sometimes heard that although a lot of families have been helped by the troubled families programme, not many unemployed family members have gone into jobs? Is that a fair criticism of the programme? Would you say that it has been a success so far? David Holmes: Family Action delivers a range of troubled families schemes in different parts of the country.”
“That is still rolling out, but it has been so successful that so far that we have convinced Government to allow us to scale that up through our devolution agreement to another 55,000 families in Greater Manchester over the course of the next Parliament. I think you can apply the principles specifically to employment and have really beneficial impacts.”
“However, as we go forward, it is not only about the troubled families programme, it is also about applying the troubled families programme way of working to other interventions. In the last Parliament, we convinced the Treasury and the Department for Work and Pensions that we should apply the principles of the troubled families programme to our version of a locally commissioned Work programme, and we called that “Working Well” programme. We got some excellent providers to come in and provide top-class employment interventions, but coupled that with their lead workers slotting, at a place level, into our system of integrating all of the public services.”
“I think you are right that it was clear in the first programme that getting people into jobs was probably the most difficult part of the exercise, but we all found—certainly those of us in some of the more deprived parts of the country—that the vast majority of our troubled families were suffering from worklessness, normally long-term worklessness. More than two thirds of Manchester’s troubled families were workless. It was a very slow start, but when we got through the four-year programme, of those two thirds—a total of 2,300—we got 26% of those people into work, and 19% of that total was sustained for more than 12 months. I think that is reasonably good progress, given the difficulty of getting people into work.”
“The proposals in the troubled families 2 programme feel about right to me. One part of measuring success is by place. There should be a troubled families outcome plan for the place, where we understand the number and distribution of troubled families, according to the definition; what our plan is to change outcomes over a period of time; and how we measure ourselves against the relevant objectives for our place, and we report that in. There is also a specific way of measuring progress, which is by employment. If we can get people into jobs or sustained work through this programme, that almost trumps all the other requirements and the payment by results follows. It is absolutely right that the new programme is measured by employment specifically.”
“We therefore got best-quality evaluation, including cost-benefit analysis. That allowed us, as a council, in our budget-setting process last winter, which was the toughest I have ever been through, to nevertheless invest substantially in the development of our troubled families programme over the next five years. It is right that Parliament gets an annual report from the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government that explains the impact of the programme, not only for Department for Communities and Local Government objectives, but for objectives across Whitehall. If you can get that cross-cutting look across Whitehall, that has to be a move in the right direction. I think it does work, so the clause that requires annual reports is correct. How do we measure success?”
“By getting demand down, we have released funds to spend instead on universal services that create the sort of placements that attract successful people, so the economy of our place will grow over time. You get a virtuous circle. It is about reducing demand for targeted services, but it is also about economic growth. I would suggest that the evidence we have in Manchester is probably some of the best in the country, because when we started our work on this back in 2008-09, we all saw what was coming post-recession in terms of public spending cuts, but we were determined, as we went through the process, to have evidence. Does this way of working really allow you to allocate your budgets in an intelligent way? When you get to the budget-setting process, you cannot do it on hope; you have to have evidence.”
“That has had a significant impact on outcomes in Manchester. In the next programme over the next five years, we will take on just over 8,000 in Manchester and 27,000 in Greater Manchester. We think we have demonstrated success on the ground in two ways. We are giving people a lead worker who works in a system in which their leadership can actually be turned into integrated plans, because all the public services recognise and respect their leadership role. In that system, we have seen the effect on families’ lives. We have also seen public spending reduced in the right way by reducing the need and demand for specialist and targeted services, which are obviously the most expensive.”
“Q 18 I would be interested to know how Geoff feels about the same issues. Geoff Little: Well, there are three parts to the question. First, how should we measure success? Secondly, is it really effective for employment? Finally, do I think it has been successful so far? I will take the last part first, because that is a good way to get into it. From my personal view, without a doubt, the troubled families 1 programme over the past four or five years has been a resounding success. It has been a great example of how taking an integrated approach to public service delivery can have a real impact on the direction of people’s lives. The example that David gave is replicated many times. In Manchester, for example, in troubled families 1, according to the definition in the programme, we turned around the lives of 2,385 families.”
“Unemployment went up last month. The Government’s commission on employment and skills pointed out earlier this year that although we currently have German levels of adult unemployment, we have eurozone levels of youth unemployment, which went up in July and in August. Does the Secretary of State accept that much more needs to be done to give young people the chance of a decent start?”
“Until a few weeks ago, the Secretary of State told us that he was committed to the targets in the Child Poverty Act 2010, but now he has brought forward legislation that not only scraps those targets, but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff Central (Jo Stevens) pointed out, will leave Ministers with no child poverty targets at all. He has just denied that from the Dispatch Box, but the fact is that the Welfare Reform and Work Bill removes all the child poverty targets. Why are the Government, in reality, despite his fine words, throwing in the towel on child poverty?”
“The truth is that child poverty is now going to rise even faster than already predicted because of the huge cuts in tax credits next April, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Eltham (Clive Efford) referred. With most children in poverty now living in working households, not workless households, should the Secretary of State’s children’s life chances reports not include data on children in low-income working households, as well as on those in workless households?”
“The number of people receiving universal credit remains derisorily small. Four years ago, the Secretary of State told us that the transition to universal credit would be complete by 2017. We told him he would not manage it. We were right; he was wrong. He still has not given us a revised date for the completion of universal credit roll-out. Has he given up entirely on ever having one?”
“Friends to vote against the regulations, but I hope that the Minister will be able to clarify the important points that I have raised.”
“How do the Government intend that we establish whether someone poses a risk to the health and safety of another person if they are self-employed? Will he reassure us that guidance will be available in good time before the regulations come into effect on 1 October? The regulations provide for a review to be undertaken in five years’ time, but it is not clear to me why we are waiting so long. Will the Minister comment on whether that review could be brought forward? There is not much to admire in the regulations, even though I do not think they will cause the problems that the Government’s previous suggestions would have created. We welcome the Government’s re-think, especially following the debates in the other place on the Deregulation Act 2015. I will not be calling on my hon.”
“If they reach the view that they do not pose a risk to anyone and then there is an accident in which someone is badly injured or even dies, will they be liable for having reached the wrong conclusion? What penalty might they suffer? How can self-employed people who, in good faith, do not believe they pose a risk to anyone but, in fact, do, protect their position? The £4.65 million claimed benefit to business from the change, which is an extremely modest amount, will quickly be lost if a few difficult and costly legal cases arise from the uncertainty that might be created. Does the Minister expect the courts to clarify the position, or will the guidance that he mentioned make that clear? If he intends to follow the latter approach, can he tell us now what the guidance will say, and when does he expect to publish it?”
“In principle, that is a reasonable position finally to have arrived at, but I want to press the Minister on how self-employed people will know what their obligations are. As we know from the impact assessment, the great majority of self-employed people do not think that they have any obligations under the Act at the moment. For people undertaking activities listed in the schedule—now a much clearer and broader list—including agriculture, asbestos, construction, gas, genetically modified organisms and railways, the position is as it always was: they are covered by the Act. However, how are those not participating in those activities to know whether they should be regarded as posing a risk to the health and safety of another person and so have legal obligations under the Act?”
“It continues: “The five respondents who were aware that legal requirements in this area applied to them provided estimates centred around 30 minutes.” The impact assessment assumes that those self-employed people probably do only half of that anyway, so perhaps that 10% will save 15 minutes a year as a result of the regulations. I guess that is why the Government came up with the extremely modest total net present value of £4.65 million benefit from the changes. Compared with the long-standing position that everyone is covered, the regulations stipulate that people who are not involved in activities listed in the schedule and who do not pose a risk to the health and safety of another person are no longer covered by the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974.”
“The remaining 55 either said that they did not have any such obligation—they were the majority—or that they were not sure. Paragraph 62 of the assessment says: “Interviewees who took part in the qualitative research were asked directly whether they thought the removal of health and safety obligations would make any difference to their working practices. The response was unanimous, with all participants stating it would not.” It is not quite clear what the Government are trying to achieve. Paragraph 67 says: “One of the questions asked of interviewees in the 2012 qualitative research was how much time they spent each year ensuring they were compliant with health and safety law”— as we know, of the 60 respondents, 55 did not think that they had any obligations.”
“I pay tribute in particular to my noble Friend Lord McKenzie of Luton, who, through his tireless efforts in the other place, should take much of the credit for the Government’s change of heart. The TUC described the regulations as “unnecessary legislation that no-one wanted, aimed at resolving a non-existent problem”, and that remains correct. As I look through the impact assessment, I am struck by the scale of the so-called problem. At paragraph 52, it tells us that research was carried out in 2012 involving interviews with 60 people and only five of them “thought they had any health and safety obligations.” Therefore, fewer than one in 10 were conscious that they had any obligations that the Government wanted to remove from them.”
“This will lead to a very complex legal situation which will prove impracticable to interpret and enforce. On that basis we believe that current requirements should be retained.” It is certainly the Opposition’s view that the important virtues of clarity and certainty in health and safety legislation should not readily be given up. The CBI responded to the Government’s consultation. In answer to the question it posed, “would a self-employed person know if the law applied to them or not?” 61% said that they would not. It was frankly a terrible mess. The regulations represent a significant shift from the initial, unattractive proposal and I welcome that the Government made those changes. It has been a long and winding road, but the scale of the problems that we were heading towards has been averted.”
“What about people who spent some of their time on prescribed activities and some on other activities? Under the Government’s proposal, even though people engaged in activities on the prescribed list did not have obligations under the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974, they would still have obligations under other legislation. How would they know what those obligations were and how to fulfil them? In response to that initial proposal, EEF The Manufacturers Organisation said: “EEF understands the logic of excluding the self-employed from the scope of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 where they pose no potential risk, but do not believe it will be easy to determine or define (with any accuracy) who poses a potential risk and who doesn’t.”
“The proposed list of high risk activities left out a lot with injury rates statistically higher than the average. For example, it was proposed that there would be no health and safety obligations on self-employed motor mechanics, van drivers, heavy goods vehicle drivers, furniture makers, woodworkers, metalworkers and maintenance fitters. That struck many people as a pretty serious list of omissions. The proposed approach was fraught with other problems. In particular, it would have introduced huge uncertainty for self-employed people about whether they had obligations. The existing arrangement was felt by some to be onerous, but at least everybody understood what it was. The Government’s first proposed approach did not have that virtue. How exactly were the listed activities in the regulations defined?”
“Fatalities in the agricultural sector increased, which underlines the importance of including that sector in the schedule to the regulations. We must all hope that this increase is just a blip, but it is absolutely clear that there is no ground for complacency, or for the rather cavalier approach to these matters that some of the Minister’s colleagues—not the current Minister, I am pleased to say—appear to have favoured in the past. The Government’s initial approach was superficially attractive to people with an ideological hostility to health and safety legislation. Analysis by the HSE showed that that approach would more than double the number of self-employed people who would be exempt from health and safety obligations compared with Professor Löfstedt’s recommendation.”
“He said: “I…recommend exempting from health and safety law those self-employed whose work activities pose no potential risk of harm to others.” The Government initially tried to turn that recommendation on its head with a proposal that no self-employed people had health and safety obligations other than those undertaking activities included on a list, which was to be set out in regulations. Inevitably, in the background to this discussion is a concern that the good and obviously welcome long-term fall in accidents at work—workplace fatalities are down 75% since 1974—is showing worrying signs of starting to move in the wrong direction. The Health and Safety Executive has reported that fatal injuries went up from 136 to 142 in the year to March.”