Sir Mel Stride
MP for Central Devon · Conservative · United Kingdom
“May I welcome the Chancellor to his position and thank him for his kind remarks earlier? May I also wish him every success, because I am afraid that under this Government we need some? He will know that if we are to fix the economy, we have to fix the welfare bill.”
“Given all that is going on, this could be the last time. The legacy of this Chancellor has been the highest taxes on record, a benefits bill spiralling out of control, and unemployment 300,000 higher than it was at the last general election. The right hon.”
“The right hon. Lady cannot bring herself to answer the simple question I asked. I will tell her: she is borrowing one quarter of a trillion pounds more than the plans that she inherited—that is her legacy. We hear that the right hon. Member for Makerfield (Andy Burnham) is considering borrowing even more.”
“May I begin by agreeing with you, Mr Speaker, and saying how disrespectful it is that this U-turn on fuel duty has already been released to the media earlier this week?”
“Today’s announcements will bring little comfort to the hundreds of thousands of people who have lost their jobs, the countless businesses that have folded and the high streets that are now hollowed out.”
“The Conservative party has been campaigning for a fuel duty freeze for months. The Chancellor repeatedly rejected those calls, creating unnecessary uncertainty for motorists and businesses. Why did it take her so long to realise that putting up fuel duty during an energy crisis is a bad idea?”
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“I will do so momentarily. It started with broken promises. This was a party that said during the run-up to the general election that it had no intention of raising taxes left, right and centre, and yet within a month or two, this Government did precisely that, with devastating consequences: tax rises on businesses that stifle growth. They talked down the economy by confecting a £22 billion black hole that did not exist. What an irony it was that it was they who brought in the Office for Budget Responsibility to decide whether that £22 billion black hole existed and that the OBR said it could not legitimise the claim—the Government were wrong. What happened with spending and borrowing? It got completely out of control.”
“In a moment. That in turn has seen interest rates higher for longer and the servicing costs on our national debt now running at over £100 billion a year—more than twice our defence spend. I will now give way to whoever was trying to intervene behind me.”
“My right hon. Friend, as ever, is absolutely right. The reality, as we see in the bond yields at the moment, is that the markets have no confidence in the ability of this Government to get on top of spending. We saw the farce of a Government who came into office scrapping the £5 billion of welfare savings that were already baked into the OBR’s scorecard because we had brought them in, and attempting to bring forward their own reforms only for their Back Benchers to vote them down. My right hon. Friend is so right; this Government do not have the will or the plan to deal with spending, and that is at the heart of the reason why we will all be punished and pay the price of more taxes come the Budget in November.”
“The hon. Gentleman is entirely right. Of course, if the Government have got into a situation where they are having to scrabble around and look at property taxes, as we are debating this afternoon, than really nothing is safe from the taxman under this Government.”
“As the hon. Lady will know, interest rates are one of the key tools in monetary policy and are applied to bring down inflation. While she is right that there have been five reductions in the level of the base rate, there should have been many more. The reason is—the evidence is there—that this Government have stoked inflation. Inflation is still rising. It is at twice the level or thereabouts that it was on the day of the general election. When a Government stoke inflation, we pay the price through higher interest rates, and that is precisely what has been happening.”
“If the right hon. Lady wants to make the rules, she should live by them. That message will go out to businesses and families up and down the country. There is no way that they can avoid the juggernaut of taxes that are coming down the track.”
“That, plus £4 billion more, was blown by the time of the spring statement—the emergency Budget. Once again, it appears that considerably more has been blown all over again. That is no surprise. The U-turns on winter fuel payments and on welfare reform, which we have already discussed in this debate, led to unfunded commitments of around £6 billion—unfunded commitments after the Chancellor had said that the Labour party would never find itself in that position. What she said has simply not happened. What signal does it send to the markets when the Government cannot control spending? In the long-term, it will be interesting to see what the Office for Budget Responsibility has to say about its forecasts for growth. In recent times, 30-year bond yields have hit a 27-year high. We are paying more to borrow than Greece.”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind words about the Conservative party—I am sure that they are deeply felt and very genuine. What the Deputy Prime Minister should be doing is delivering more homes. It is quite clear that the target of 1.5 million homes, which the Government claim they will deliver at the rate of 300,000 a year, will not be met. I am quite happy to be proven wrong, but I very much suspect that I will not be, unfortunately. We have ended up in a situation in which a huge black hole is looming. The National Institute of Economic and Social Research puts it at possibly as much as £40 billion. The economic mismanagement of the Labour party is a recurrent theme. In the October Budget—the Government’s first—there was headroom of about £10 billion against the fiscal rules.”
“There is no doubt that under the previous Government there was a need to support the economy. That involved the expenditure of £400 billion, not least on the furlough scheme. I do not remember the hon. Gentleman’s party arguing at the time that we should not do that; in fact, it argued that we should go further still. The Conservative Government stepped in, supported jobs and saved us from going into mass unemployment that many feared would be worse than even in the 1980s, and I take great pride in that. But we are where we are now, and what the Government should be doing is growing the economy, stoking up business sentiment, getting taxes down and getting the economy moving, but they are doing precisely the opposite.”
“The Opposition say, “Enough is enough.” We should not punish parents who wish to pass something on to their children. Socialists do not understand that we do not all stand as atomised individuals; we work together as families and communities. We care about each other, we care about the people we love, and it is right that we have the opportunity to pass something on to them.”
“What a tax on people who have saved hard and managed to get on the property ladder, but who will then be stuck with annual taxes. What about those who are asset-rich but income-poor and cannot afford to pay—are they expected to sell up? Will the Minister rule out that possibility and put people’s minds at rest? If that was not enough, we hear that the Government may be considering changes to the gifting regime in inheritance tax. They are not content just to pulverise farmers and family businesses, and to see those businesses and farms broken up when they are passed on from one generation to another, because of the imposition of tax. In fact, it was a Labour Government in the 1970s who brought in the reliefs that this Government have chosen to abolish. The inheritance tax yield will double over this Parliament.”
“It would have clear implications by bunging up the property market, and clear economic implications by causing friction in the process of people moving from one part of the country to another, often in search of work. It would discourage downsizing, even though that would be beneficial in providing more homes for people to live in. Before the election, the Prime Minister said that there never was a policy of that type so it did not need to be ruled out, but let us rule it out just in case anyone pretends that there was such a policy. When he responds, will the Minister confirm that he stands by the words of the Prime Minister? Secondly, there has been a suggestion of an annual tax on homes. What a tax on aspiration!”
“My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We are seeing high inflation, anaemic growth, high gilt yields and a pound that has been plummeting in recent times. All those are signals flashing red on the dashboard. Instead of getting a grip on spending and getting taxes down, the Government have been out there pitch-rolling yet more taxes. Over the summer, we have seen briefings to the press suggesting tax rises on property. The Labour party has an opportunity this afternoon to rule out those possibilities, and the Minister should do just that when he responds. First, there has been a suggestion that there will be changes to the private residence relief under the capital gains tax regime. That would strike at the heart of our country as a property-owning democracy. People would be penalised simply for selling up and moving home.”
“My hon. Friend has put it brilliantly and succinctly, and she is absolutely right. In their horror—in their recoil from the inheritance tax changes—that is exactly what farmers and family business owners have been doing: thinking about alternatives. The seven-year rule has been one of those alternatives, and it would be a really heartless and extraordinarily cruel moment if the Government were to shut that down as well.”
“It has been estimated that about 15,000 high net worth individuals have left our country in the period in which this Government have been in power. A consequence of that tax just walking out of the door is that we will require somewhere around a third of a million to half a million people on average earnings to make up the difference. This is not a case of good riddance to wealth; the Government should—as the Conservative party would—encourage and turbocharge wealth at every turn.”
“My right hon. Friend raises his point in his usual eloquent manner. That is a question for the Minister, and I hope that, when he rises to the Dispatch Box, he will rule out our concerns in their entirety. In the event that he cannot, perhaps he will choose to answer my right hon. Friend’s inquiry. Is it not the case that those in the Labour party have a clear misunderstanding because they have no business experience? Those on the Government Front Bench have no business experience in setting up companies or understanding the meaning of business taxes—the experience is simply not there. Labour will talk about taxing wealth, but does it not understand that if we tax wealth, we will get less of it?”
“There is not just an increase in the rate, but a substantial reduction in the threshold at which national insurance kicks in, which has meant higher unemployment, in particular among younger workers, part-time workers, women and people getting that vital first job so that they can get themselves on a career path. They are the people whom the Labour Government are punishing most.”
“The hon. Gentleman refers to cutting spending. His party attempted to cut spending, but entirely failed to do so. My point is that if he wants money to spend on public services, he needs to cut welfare and should worry about how to do so. I do not know how he voted when that was put to the test in this House, but if he in any way voted against his own Government and against getting on top of the welfare bill, he should ask his own question of himself. As for those on low incomes, they are precisely the people who are now being devastated by the increase in national insurance.”
“My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I have already shared with the House the classic example of the number of people who have left this country because of a punitive tax regime and the costs of that.”
“That is right. We live in a highly mobile world; it is easy for people with substantial wealth or money to invest to go anywhere in the world. We have to remain competitive, and this Government are making us less competitive. My right hon. Friend refers to unemployment, but just look at the record—should we have expected any more from this Government? No, not really. Every single Labour Government in history have left unemployment higher when they left office than it was at the time they came into office. What have we seen on unemployment since this Government have been in office? It has increased every single month since they have been in power.”
“They are the people who understand what needs to be done on the tax front and who have to live with the red tape that her party is bringing in to tie them down. They are the people whom this party is listening to.”
“The hon. Lady asks where we are getting our ideas from; where we are not getting them from is from academics and researchers who believe in taxing wealth and who now sit there on the Treasury Bench, or in other places where they advise No. 10. They talk on a regular basis about taxing property, wealth, shares and assets of any description that they can think of, but that is the road to ruin. She asked where we get our ideas from, and I will tell her. I set up my own business in the 1980s, from absolutely nothing. I grew it from scratch, and then I took it over to America and grew a business there. I have lived, breathed and eaten business most of my life. I also go up and down the country to speak to other such businesses.”
“I think that council tax, different variants of it, revaluations and so on are things that Government should look at, because we do not want them to be entirely static; there can always be reform and change. I will observe, however, that the average council tax paid in Labour areas is demonstrably higher than the equivalent taxes in Conservative areas. That comes down to the approach that a Conservative council takes to spending and to ensuring that councils are efficiently run, rather than the profligate approach of the Labour party.”
“I am not going to get into specific things going on in the hon. Gentleman’s area. How can I be expected to opine with authority on something of that nature relating to his constituency? [ Interruption. ] Hold on. My general point stands: the simple fact is that Labour-controlled local authorities charge more in council tax than Conservative-run councils do.”
“It is a simple matter of logic that even if the hon. Lady’s assertion is true—I do not know whether it is or not—it does not contradict the point that I made.”
“Are family homes safe or are they simply fair game? If Labour Members fail to vote for the simple motion before us today, then the answer will be clear: under this Labour Government, nothing is safe—not people’s homes, pensions, savings, businesses or farms, and not that which they simply wish to pass on to their own children. The message to hard-working people up and down our country could not be clearer: Labour will always duck the hard choices and tax the living daylights out of your family’s future, to pay for its failure.”
“The uncertainty that has flowed from the disastrous situation over the summer has meant that, because of Labour’s choices, a hold has been put on businesses investing, on property transactions and choices, and fundamentally on some of the freedoms that we, as citizens, often take for granted. Labour Members will desperately dismiss all of this as press speculation—I expect to hear that from the Minister in a moment—but is it not the truth that this sorry tale is entirely of their own making? It is the inevitable result of their choices and the failure that has followed, with much of this speculation seemingly fuelled by briefings from within the Government. This House and the public deserve answers. The Chancellor cannot borrow more and has shown no ability to control spending. That can only leave tax, but which taxes will it be?”
“My point is very clear—I need to make some progress as I have been fairly generous in taking interventions—that when it comes to council tax, it is a fact that Conservative-controlled councils charge less, because their whole approach to running the council is the same as our approach to running the economy: to ensure it is done efficiently and not to impose undue burdens on people by way of tax. We were told by the Chancellor that the tax hikes in the Government’s first Budget, last autumn, were a “once in a Parliament” event. It is now a question not of whether there will be further tax increases, but which taxes will be increased.”
“That came with a £400 billion price tag, so it is not surprising that some taxes had to rise in order to pay for that.”
“The U-turn, when it finally came, will come as little comfort to pensioners who are now about to be dragged into income tax for the first time as a result of the Labour party’s policies. In opposition, the Labour party said it would freeze council tax, and yet we have seen in the latest spending review a £7 billion increase in council tax levied across this Parliament. According to the IFS, it is the largest increase in council tax in a generation—and that from the party that said it would not be putting up taxes on working people. Does it not think that working people pay council tax?”
“We had the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs—then the shadow Secretary of State—out reassuring farmers, looking Tom Bradshaw, the president of the National Farmers Union, in the eye and telling him that at least when it came to inheritance tax, farmers had nothing to fear from a future Labour Government. How wrong they were! Then there was the winter fuel payment debacle. Labour reassured pensioners up and down the country that it would not be means-testing the winter fuel payment. Before somebody jumps up and says, “Well, it only excluded millionaires,” it did not—some 80% of pensioners living below the poverty line were denied those payments and had to go through a long and cruel winter.”
“This is the Government of broken promises. The Labour party said during the general election campaign that it would do nothing on taxation, and yet it came straight into government and placed £25 billion-worth of taxation on businesses up and down our country. We know the consequences of that: it killed growth nearly stone dead, and it has cost around £3,500 pounds by way of lower wages alone to the average working family. It is a clear breach of the Labour party’s manifesto. Members need not take my word for it—they can take Paul Johnson’s, when he was the head of the Institute for Fiscal Studies. He has also been on the airwaves recently describing the move as not just a breach of the Labour party manifesto, but a “blatant” breach.”
“I beg to move, That this House notes that the Government was elected on the basis of a manifesto commitment not to increase taxes on working people and not to increase National Insurance or the basic, higher, or additional rates of Income Tax, or VAT; accordingly regrets the decision to raise employers’ National Insurance contributions in the Autumn Budget 2024; further regrets the proposed changes to Agricultural Property Relief and the burden on taxpayers from increases in Council Tax, which is forecast to increase at its highest rate in 20 years; calls on the Government to reaffirm the statement made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the Autumn Budget 2024 that, from 2028–29, personal tax thresholds will be uprated in line with inflation once again; regrets that the Government plans to bring those whose only income is the State Pension into paying Income Tax this Parliament; and urges the Government not to introduce new taxes on the value of assets owned such as savings, homes and pensions, which would drive wealth creators away from the UK.”
“Indeed, my hon. Friend is absolutely right. We need to stand up for everybody—even our toolmakers. Let us be frank: we have had to table this motion today, which seeks to do nothing other than reaffirm the commitments that the Labour party has already made, because of the litany of broken promises that I have just shared with the House.”
“We had had 13 consecutive months of real wage growth, and inflation had been brought down from over 11% due to the Ukraine war, to bang on 2% on the day of the general election. Where is inflation now? It is almost double what the Government inherited.”
“My right hon. Friend is absolutely right, and under his stewardship, things were so much better. As he points out, the Government have resiled from any attempt to control the welfare bill—an unfunded tax commitment of £5 billion. That, plus the U-turn on the winter fuel payment, is more than £6 billion of unfunded commitments that the Government are responsible for—unfunded commitments that they said they would never see themselves making. He is absolutely right: the legacy that he left when he was Chancellor in the previous Government was the highest growth in the G7 for our economy. We had near record levels of employment, and near record low levels of unemployment.”
“I think what the hon. Gentleman said was a gross impertinence, Madam Deputy Speaker. He also referred to you as an absolute “shower”, which is totally unreasonable. I have always been a great admirer of yours, as you know, and always will be. [Hon. Members: “ Name him!”] Name the hon. Gentleman—quite. We have a Government who are grossly incompetent. As soon as they came into office, what did they do? They talked down the economy. It is no surprise that the British Chambers of Commerce is now saying that the No.1 concern of its members is high taxes, or that the latest survey by the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales once again shows that business confidence is down—and that is for the fourth survey in a row.”
“My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. When it comes to criticising this Government, it is always confusing whether to address those on the Front Bench or on the Back Benches, because they are never quite in the same place. The big mistake that the Government made was to talk down the economy by going on about this confected black hole of £22 billion—something that the Office for Budget Responsibility has already debunked. The Government should stop using that number. They are the ones who created a black hole of some £6 billion, as I have just set out, and they should focus not on the black hole that they have invented, but on the one they have created. It is that black hole that is creating speculation across the summer about what will happen in autumn, damaging confidence and damaging businesses up and down the country.”
“I am not sure that I fully understood the point, but the hon. Gentleman seems at least to accept that there is a real black hole when it comes to this Government, of at least £6 billion.”
“Well yes, exactly. The Government will look to any floating branch or whatever to cling on to, to try to look a little better than they truly are. We have seen a Government who have indulged in spending like it was the 1970s. The result of that has been to push up inflation, which has led to interest rates being higher for longer than they otherwise would have been. It is all very well for Labour Members to trumpet the fact that there have been four interest rate cuts since they came into office. The reality is that if they had not lost control of inflation, there would have been more and they would have come more quickly. The headroom that the Chancellor has against her fiscal targets is wafer-thin. This is the usual Labour way: spending and spending and spending until it runs out of other people’s money.”
“It would be sensible for the hon. Lady to look at those on her own Front Bench and ask why they take these appalling anti-business decisions. The answer is that hardly any of them have any experience of private business or of setting up a company—in fact, not one senior Front Bencher from her party has that. That is unlike the Conservatives—whether that is myself; the shadow Home Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Chris Philp); the shadow Business Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Arundel and South Downs (Andrew Griffith); or others—who actually understand the real world of business.”
“We were told by the now Health Secretary during the run-up to the general election that all we needed to do was get around the table with the unions and settle and the problem would go away—well, the junior doctors are back for more.”
“My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The reality is that if we tax something, we tend to get less of it. This Government have taxed business, so it is not surprising that the economy has been damaged as a consequence. An often fair question asked of the Conservatives is: what would we do? Let me answer that question directly. First, we would have taken very different choices. We would not have loaded up taxation on businesses and stifled growth in the way that Labour has: we would have focused on productivity. We would not have come into office and given the train drivers 14% and the junior doctors 22% with no strings attached whatsoever.”
“I will momentarily. We would of course have tackled the welfare bill, as we did when we were in office. We made £5 billion-worth of savings, as scored by the Office for Budget Responsibility, and we had 450,000 fewer people going on to long-term sickness benefits as a direct consequence of our policies. We had a clear plan to go into government and save £12 billion a year in addition.”
“I think this debate is actually about the tax policy of this Government. As I have clearly set out— [ Interruption. ] To be fair, there was the small matter of covid, which came along and shrank the UK economy by 10% overnight. People at the time speculated that we would see mass unemployment, the like of which our country had never, ever seen, yet through our intervention we ensured that that did not happen. Likewise, when the Ukraine-Russia war brought inflation to our shores through energy price spikes, peaking at 11.1% at the back end of 2022, we took the tough decisions, along with the Bank of England, to bring that inflation down. In the meantime, we protected millions of low-income families up and down the country from the consequences of that inflation.”
“My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. With the increasing Government debt to which this Government are constantly adding, and the higher interest rates for longer for which they are responsible because of their extravagant spending, we are spending about £100 billion a year on simply servicing that debt, which is twice what we spend on defence. That is not sustainable, and things will get worse under this Government.”
“Surely, too, the British people, those hard-working men and women up and down our country—the businesses, the entrepreneurs, the farmers who toil all hours, our charities, our hospices, our veterans, our elderly, and all those who embody the very best of all that our country can be—deserve answers about the promises made to them, and about whether their pay packets, their pensions and their savings are safe. Surely, they deserve better than this wretched, rotten and defunct Labour Government.”
“821.] When the Minister comes to the Dispatch Box, will he confirm that he, too, holds that position? Will he also rule out wealth taxes? We have already seen tens of thousands of people—high net worth individuals—leaving our country. I know that socialists may say, “Good riddance to them—they are wealthy”, but the Adam Smith Institute calculates that the tax forgone as a consequence of their departure is equal to the tax paid by around half a million people on average earnings. The Labour party has no plan to stem that exodus of talent and wealth creation. Whatever decisions are taken in the autumn, they will be bad ones, and as nervous markets look on, they may prove disastrous. It may even be that this Government take us to a dark place; it is hoped not, but if history is any guide to the future, the lights are surely flashing red.”
“However, that would completely abandon the commitment not to sideline the OBR, so when the Minister comes to the Dispatch Box will he reconfirm that the Government’s commitment to the fiscal rules also applies to the fiscal framework, and that we will continue to have two OBR forecasts per year? The Government should be looking not for yet more borrowing, but to rein in spending. However, the welfare debacle shows that they are utterly incapable of doing that, so that leaves just taxes. The motion before us today simply asks the Minister to confirm the Chancellor’s commitment not to extend the freeze on tax thresholds. She specifically said in her Budget speech that such a move “would hurt working people. It would take more money out of their payslips.” —[ Official Report , 30 October 2025; Vol. 755, c.”
“The OBR, the Bank of England and the International Monetary Fund have all downgraded growth, and the Office for National Statistics recently announced that for the second month in a row, we have had an economic contraction. How else might the Chancellor make the numbers add up? Well, despite Ministers insisting that their commitment to the fiscal rules remains non-negotiable, there are reports of potential changes to the broader fiscal framework, including the early use of the flexibility of a 0.5% of GDP range for the current budget target, which would allow £12 billion to £13 billion of extra borrowing. However, that would be a breach of faith. There are similar reports that Ministers might move to just one OBR forecast a year, to avoid an embarrassing emergency Budget like the one we saw in March.”