Mr Clive Betts
MP for Sheffield South East · Labour · United Kingdom
“I wholeheartedly welcome the Foreign Secretary’s statement, both its content and its tone. I would like to ask about his discussions with our colleagues and allies in other countries who are looking to implement similar sanctions.”
“I offer two congratulations: first, to my right hon. Friend and constituency neighbour, the First Secretary, on her well-deserved promotion—I am sure she will do an excellent job. Secondly, I congratulate her and the Prime Minister for their real commitment to devolution, which I have wanted to see for an awfully long time.”
“I apologise for the fact that—as I have explained to you, Madam Deputy Speaker—I will have to leave straight after my question to chair Westminster Hall. I thank my right hon. Friend for doing this very challenging piece of work. I think that the theme of fairness, for the people who need benefits and for taxpayers, is right.”
“On the other hand, so many constituents with really serious conditions get turned down for PIP, and can get it only if they struggle through the appeal system, sometimes without any help at all. So the system is not fair to anyone at present.”
“When the previous Government let the contract, we were in a situation in which procurement could not properly take account of the past record of companies, and I understand that the Government have now changed that.”
“I will dive very deeply into the question, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Chair of the Committee sends his apologies for his absence; he is presently in a Committee meeting.”
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“I must emphasise that speeches should last for no more than six minutes, please. Otherwise, other Members will not get as much time in which to speak.”
“I thank hon. Members for keeping to time limits; it is appreciated. We move to the Front Benchers. There will be 10 minutes for the two Front Benchers and then a short time for the mover of the motion to wind up.”
“The Government were right to encourage people to get tested over the holiday period. Like many of my constituents and thousands of people across the country, I went around several pharmacies, and all I saw were notices in the window saying, “No lateral flow tests available.” That is the reality of the situation, so I ask the Prime Minister two simple questions: first, what steps did he take before the holiday period to get an assurance for himself that tests were going to be freely available? Secondly, when did he become aware that millions of tests were locked away in a warehouse and would not be available until after the holiday period?”
“We have more chance of doing that if, rather than a heavy rail service going into Victoria that puts people in the middle of nowhere, we get a tram-train on the line going into the centre of Sheffield, which would have a much better chance of encouraging people out of their cars. Will the Minister seriously look at that option?”
“Happy Christmas from the Opposition Benches to you and all your staff, Mr Speaker. Along with my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Sarah Champion) and the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire (Lee Rowley), I am supporting the opening of the Barrow Hill line, which goes from Sheffield to Chesterfield through my constituency, hopefully with new stations at Beighton and Waverley. The real advantage will be if we can get people out of their cars on to the new line so that we avoid the congestion in Crystal Peaks and Handsworth in my constituency, and on the Sheffield Parkway.”
“I simply say to the Minister that unless he acts today to help hospitality businesses they will not be there next year to be helped—that is the simple reality. People choosing not to go to hospitality events, following guidance not to go to the office, is having a big impact on the revenues of public transport operators—bus, coach and Supertram operators in Sheffield. Will he have urgent conversations with the Transport Secretary about extra help for those operators—already we have seen massive cuts to services—and give the money to the transport authorities so that it can be best spent in the interests of passengers?”
“As that is not the case, once we have had a briefing from the scrutiny unit, the Local Government Association and others, I hope there may be an opportunity after the recess to find a way to get the Secretary of State to come to the House to answer questions about this important matter.”
“This year, we are supposed to be getting a written statement, although it was still not in the Vote Office when I checked. Can it be anything to do with the fact that a story appeared in the Local Government Chronicle the other day that said: “The Government is thought to be in ‘active discussion’ with between 20 and 30 councils about offering extra financial support to help them avoid effective bankruptcy”? That is a serious situation. Very clearly, the Secretary of State ought to be before the House today explaining his financial proposals for next year and allowing Members to question him about them.”
“On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I gave best wishes to Mr Speaker earlier, and I pass them on to you as well, for the coming season. This is a time of year when many of us expect and think about the presents that we might get at Christmas. It is also a time when local councils up and down the country wait with concern to find out how much the Government intend to give them in revenue support and other grants for next year. It is an even more important time this year due to the covid pressures on councils, on top of an already difficult financial situation. We would normally have an oral statement in the House today about local government finance for next year. We did not have one in 2019, for particular reasons associated with EU legislation going through, but every other year we have had an oral statement.”
“Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Perhaps I can write to Mr Speaker as well to see whether he can help in finding a way to get the Secretary of State back after the recess.”
“I refer the Secretary of State to the issue of third doses. I welcome the Government’s policy of giving people with compromised immune systems a third dose, and I declare my own interest in that. I ask him, though, why is there so much confusion around who is responsible for advising people with an entitlement to a third dose. There is a lot of confusion between secondary and primary care providers. Secondly, why is it not possible to go online to book an appointment for a third dose as it is to book one for a first, second or booster dose?”
“I welcome the measures to enable people to stay in their own homes. That is exactly what the Housing, Communities and Local Government Committee recommended some years ago in our report into older persons’ housing. Will the Minister confirm that in the statement there was no money to improve the pay and conditions of the workforce, without which we will carry on getting churn; no money to help companies that are now exiting the social care sector; and no money to deal with the crisis in funding that local authorities are facing, which both the Health Committee and the Housing, Communities and Local Government Committee recognised? Does she accept that without money for any of those things, nothing at all will change?”
“The Department of Health and Social Care answered on 27 October saying that it could not answer the question in the required time—that was two months after the policy statement. I asked again on 24 November whether the Government could say who would advise people of their eligibility, and I was told again that the Department could not answer within the required time. Three months after a major policy announcement, the Government cannot say who is responsible for advising people of their entitlement. Either the Department made a major policy decision without having the administrative arrangements in place to deliver it, or it has the information and is keeping it from Parliament. Neither of those answers is satisfactory, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I wonder whether you can help me get to the bottom of it.”
“On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am disappointed that the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care has just gone, because he might have been able to help me with this point of order if you cannot. I declare my interest, as I have an immunocompromised system and therefore I was very pleased that the Government announced the availability of a third dose for people with conditions such as mine and many others. I am concerned that there has been a lot of confusion between primary and secondary care about who should be advising people of their eligibility. I therefore tabled a question on 22 October to ask who is responsible for advising people of their eligibility and what the gap will be between a third dose and the booster.”
“Before we begin the debate, I remind Members that, in line with the guidance from the House of Commons Commission and the Government, they should wear face coverings except when they are speaking. I also remind Members to take a lateral flow test twice a week, which can be done in the House or at home, and to give other Members and staff room and space when seated as well as when entering or leaving the room.”
“We move on to the Front Benchers, who have at least 10 minutes. They can have a bit longer if they want, as long as they leave a couple of minutes at the end for the mover of the motion to respond.”
“The Minister will now resume his speech. We have 11 minutes to go; we will finish at 4.28 pm. I should just say that Alan Brown has courteously given me his apologies, because he is in the main Chamber for the next debate.”
“The rules of the House are that if a Member wishes to speak in a 30-minute debate, they should inform both the mover and the Minister in advance and then I should be notified. Nevertheless, it is all sorted out now.”
“Order. The Minister needs a reasonable amount of time to finish and he was unaware that you were going to speak in this debate, Mr Hanvey. Can you conclude now please?”
“I remind hon. Members of the guidance from the Commission and the Government about wearing face masks when they are not speaking, giving space to other Members and staff, and testing twice weekly with lateral flow tests, either on the estate or at home.”
“I thank hon. Members for keeping to time in this debate. We can now move on to the Front Benchers. First, I call Patrick Grady for the Scottish National party, who has five minutes.”
“The word “mandatory” was used but is that not just a word in the statutory instrument? In practice is it not unenforceable? As Darren Pearce, the manager of Meadowhall shopping centre, said in evidence to the Housing, Communities and Local Government Committee, “The biggest problem we had last time was about trying to get face coverings to be worn. I saw a group of young people going to Meadowhall, saying very loudly, ‘If they ask you, just say you’ve got asthma.’ Then they say, ‘We’ve got asthma. We’re exempt’, and there is nothing anyone can do, is there?” That causes all sorts of tensions with the shop assistants and with other people wearing face masks, who feel that some people are getting away with it. What is the Minister going to do about that situation?”
“The issue is that enforcement is impossible when people can just claim an exemption and we are not allowed to ask, “Why have you got an exemption; can you prove it?” Does my hon. Friend agree that we should have had a system in place from the beginning where if people wanted an exemption—a medical exemption is what the Minister called it—there had to be medical confirmation that they were entitled to it because they had a medical condition that meant wearing a mask was damaging to their health?”
“I think there is a desire across the House for a planning system that gets homes built but also recognises the democratic rights of local residents. Looking at the Minister’s planning reforms, may I suggest that he drops his zonal proposals, which are really quite bureaucratic and time consuming, and looks instead to simplify the local plan system, allows for more residents to contribute and be involved in it, and brings in his digital proposals, which have been generally accepted? Once a local plan is in place and an individual application comes in, should there not be a presumption that that application will be accepted where it is in agreement with the local plan, subject to any remaining concerns from residents being taken into account and listened to as part of the consideration of the application?”
“I thank my honourable football friend, the hon. Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch), for the report that she has produced. We look forward to further discussions with her at the football group meeting next week. Richard Caborn, a previous Sports Minister, convened a group of football parties in Sheffield, and we put forward a submission to the review, promoting the independent regulator, the golden share, and important elements of the review that have now been published and supported by the hon. Lady. That is really welcome. Does the Minister accept that, at the end of the day, the regulator must have real powers to redistribute the funding of football to do away with the cliff edge between the premiership and the championship and the cliff edge within the championship that is caused by parachute payments?”
“Last week’s announcement, a centralised decision from the Department for Transport, effectively scrapped not merely the high-speed line from Sheffield to London, but the high-speed lines from Leeds to Sheffield, from Sheffield to Birmingham, and from Sheffield to Manchester. Is it not the case that, because Transport for the North disagreed with those decisions, the Minister has effectively switched it on to Zoom? He can sit in his office, he can see that it is there, but with the mute button on, he does not have to listen to its advice.”
“Will the Secretary of State therefore agree to meet Sheffield Members of Parliament, representatives of the city council and the mayor to discuss the details of these proposals and what they actually mean for our city?”
“There has been a great deal of commitment to HS2 in Sheffield, across the political parties and in the business community, so today there will be a lot of anger. People will feel that Sheffield has once again been snubbed and left behind. I believe that as a consolation we are to see the electrification of the midland main line. Is that the third time it has been promised? It has already been scrapped twice, so are we going to be third time lucky? What is the guarantee? There are a great many questions to be asked about, for instance, the links between Sheffield and the other major cities, and whether there will be investment in our tram network, including badly needed links to our hospitals.”
“Or is this simply another example of Sheffield being not levelled up but, together with whole parts of the east midlands, being forgotten about and left behind?”
“Five years ago, Sheffield looked as though it was going to benefit from a whole range of levelling-up measures for rail infrastructure, but then the electrification of the midland main line was abandoned in 2017; a positive 2016 report on a new road tunnel between Sheffield and Manchester seems to have lain in the bottom of some ministerial drawer since; and the high-speed rail line between Sheffield and Manchester seems to have become an upgrade to the Hope Valley line which, however welcome, means that trains will get to the very high speed of under 60 mph. The one thing we have left is the eastern leg of High Speed 2. Will the Secretary of State now commit to that eastern leg going ahead?”
“May I return the Secretary of State to the 3% increase in spending power for local councils? Has he seen the analysis by the Institute for Fiscal Studies? It states that the 3% includes the £5.4 billion that the Government have used from the levy, but as the way in which councils must spend it is specified, it amounts to only a 1.8% increase in money that they can choose, and the 1.8% is there only if they put their council tax up by 3% a year.”
“That means doing away with all the disparate pots of money they have to bid for. The Local Government Association last calculated that there are 117 different pots of money that councils have to bid for. I am not making a party political point here; if we go to Conservative leaders of councils, they will be just as strident in their criticisms as Labour council leaders on this. Will the Secretary of State please look at that as a major issue?”
“The recent report by the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee said that, for all the current documents, levelling up was “a wide ranging and disjointed programme of random policies…it is difficult to see how they all tie together under one over-arching strategy.” I think that is a fair comment on what exists now. Presumably, it is the job of the Secretary of State, with his new responsibilities, to produce that overarching strategy and to tie together all these disparate funding streams. I presume we will see all that in the White Paper, which is hopefully coming shortly, and no doubt we can explore that further with him when he comes to the HCLG Committee next week. However, as well as having an overarching national strategy, councils need the ability to plan and have a local strategy.”
“First, I associate myself with the comments of the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) about the need for more money for social housing and cladding and the importance of dealing with the issues of rough sleeping. We have dealt cross-party with those matters on the Housing, Communities and Local Government Committee. Generally, I am supportive of the whole idea of levelling up, but I must say to the Secretary of State that I could be a lot more enthusiastic if I knew what it meant, how it would be achieved and how success would be measured.”
“Those cuts have fallen disproportionately on the poorest areas; it has not been levelling up, but a major exercise in levelling down. The very areas that he says he now wants to help have had the biggest cuts to their funding in the past 10 years. This Budget will probably stop the cuts getting worse, but it is not seriously going to reverse them. There is a Government policy on levelling up, an aspiration and even a Department and a Secretary of State with “levelling up” in the title. I look forward to him actually showing us what levelling up means, and producing the policies and a coherent strategy that actually deliver it.”
“We must look again at the Green Book evaluations of spending on housing sites, which are totally biased towards uplift in land values. There is bound to be a bigger uplift in land values on a greenfield site in the south than on a brownfield site in the north, and that needs addressing. We also need to look at the no additionality rule; where a derelict site with 100 old homes is cleared and 100 new ones are put in, thus really regenerating the area, Homes England funding cannot be got towards that. Those three issues do need addressing. Finally, we had a discussion about the Institute for Fiscal Studies analysis of local government spending and what that meant. I say to the Secretary of State that in the past 10 years local government has been the major subject of austerity cuts—it has had bigger cuts than anywhere else.”
“That, of course, is against the background that in the Sheffield city region, expenditure on buses is £5 per head of population. It is £70 per head of population in London. That really needs to be addressed in levelling up. I welcome the successful levelling-up fund bid from Sheffield for the regeneration—or the beginning of the regeneration—in Attercliffe in my constituency. I also welcome the £1.8 billion for brownfield sites, which is really important. Peter Freeman, the chair of Homes England, came to look at Attercliffe and the sites there, and I say to the Secretary of State that some changes to the way Homes England distributes its money are needed. First, we need to do away with the 80:20 rule, whereby Homes England is obliged to spend 80% of its money in the south-east—that simply cannot be right.”
“I see the Secretary of State nodding, so hopefully we might be able to get some change there. The Secretary of State is right to emphasise the importance of transport. Yes, the South Yorkshire region got £600 million, but its bid to the levelling up fund for transport expenditure got turned down completely. When councils look at their local plans, there is a levelling up fund, a bus service improvement plan, a city region sustainable transport settlement plan and a zero emission bus regional areas fund to bid for. That is four different pots of money that councils must bid for to fund local transport services and that they must try to tie together, in the hope they may get some of them. That is really no way to enable our city region Mayors to plan the transport for their areas—no way at all.”
“I welcome the Secretary of State to his new role and look forward to seeing him at the Select Committee next week. I do not know whether he has had the chance to read yet the Select Committee’s review of the planning reforms. May I suggest that local plans need to be at the heart of a plan-led system, indicating where development is likely to happen? To do that, local plans need to be simpler, easier to understand and get more people involved in the process so that there is real community buy-in to them. Finally, even when local plans are in place, there still needs to be an opportunity for local people to be able to comment on, object to, and, where necessary, influence the outcomes of individual planning applications.”
“I have been fortunate in the past few weeks to go to both France and Italy. Both countries have vaccination rates very similar to the UK’s—in fact Italy has a slightly higher rate now—but the difference is that a person cannot go on public transport or into a supermarket without wearing a face mask, and they cannot go into a bar, restaurant or leisure centre without showing a health passport. Infection rates in those countries are now around a tenth of the infection rate in this country. Does the Minister accept those public health measures have brought down those countries’ infection rates well below our level, or does she think there are other reasons why infection rates are so much higher in our country than in Italy and France?”
“I remind all Members of the guidance from the House of Commons Commission and the Government to wear masks and to give other Members appropriate space when entering or leaving the room. I recognise that the House rightly paid tribute to Sir David Amess, given the tragedy of his killing last week, but we should also remind ourselves that Sir David was a highly respected and long-serving member of the Panel of Chairs. In other circumstances, he might have been in my place today. Without getting formal, we will all want to think our own personal thoughts about the contribution that Sir David made as a Chair and in other ways as a Member of this House, about the incredible loss and grief felt for him, and about his family at this time.”
“Six Members have indicated that they would like to speak. In order to start the Front Benchers at no later than half past 10, I would suggest about six minutes for each Back Bencher. I call Andy Slaughter.”
“I do not know how to respond to that, Mr Speaker, but I will carry on. In declaring an interest, I welcome the Government’s decision to give a third jab to people with compromised immune systems. There has, however, been confusion in the NHS about the difference between a booster jab and a third jab. May I therefore ask the Secretary of State where is the responsibility in the NHS for advising people and arranging the third jab, and what will be the time gap between getting a third jab and a booster, as opposed to the second jab and a booster?”
“The other week, Lord Deben, the chair of the Climate Change Committee, speaking at the Housing, Communities and Local Government Committee, indicated that, if we are to hit the Committee’s targets, local government has an incredibly important role to play in the retrofitting of existing homes, the building of new homes, local planning policies and local transport policies. Is it therefore not disappointing that there is not one single mention of the role of local government in the Minister’s announcement today? What has the Minister to say about that?”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker; for a minute, I thought you were going to miss me out! I welcome the fact that the Secretary of State launched the Government’s hydrogen strategy in my constituency at ITM Power, which is a leading green hydrogen producer. The German strategy is totally committed to green hydrogen alone, and of course the Germans have put substantially more funding in than we have into this country’s strategy. The Government have an aspiration to replace all fossil fuel boilers in this country by the 2030s. That ambition is important for reducing carbon emissions and for the security of our energy supplies. Does the Secretary of State agree that we can deliver on that ambition only with a much more significant commitment from the Government to develop and install green hydrogen boilers across the country?”
“I declare an interest, as I have an electric car. Local charging is obviously important, but on Saturday I will be using my car to go from Sheffield to Plymouth to watch Sheffield Wednesday play and hopefully win. It is quite a challenge to find rapid charging points on the journey to get there and back in reasonable time. One of the concerns is that people get to a rapid charging point and it does not charge rapidly. Apparently there is a problem with the grid in many places not consistently providing the level of charge needed for these rapid chargers. Could the Minister have a look at that problem, because I think it is quite a serious one?”
“I want to ask the Minister: how much money is actually going to get to local authorities to deliver social care at the frontline? Can I refer him to paragraph 36 of the Government’s document, which we got yesterday? It says that £5.4 billion in adult social care will be provided from this levy, but that will be spent on the reforms that are in the document. It also says that all the other pressures on social care that local authorities have now, demographic and otherwise, will be paid for from council tax and the social care precept, which is council tax by another name. So are we expecting the pressures on social care to be funded not from this document, but actually from further rises in council tax? Is that the honest situation?”
“I bring my hon. Friend back to paragraph 36, which I asked the Minister about, which seems absolutely key. There is no clear money coming from the levy to social care. That is what the Government said. I think the Minister said it would all be revealed in the spending review. Paragraph 36 states: “The Government will ensure Local Authorities have access to sustainable funding for core budgets at the Spending Review. We expect demographic and unit cost pressures will be met through Council Tax, social care precept”. On top of all the other hits that working families are going to get, can they expect an above-inflation rise in their council tax next year to pay for the Government’s failure to fund social care properly?”
“The Health and Social Care Committee, of which the hon. Gentleman is a member, estimated last autumn that there was a £3.9 billion funding gap in social care. I assume that he agreed with that report. Can he explain, therefore, how this levy will deliver £3.9 billion a year for social care? I have not seen any figures showing that at all.”
“It is pretty obvious that there has been a major funding crisis in local government over the past 10 years. Local councils have had bigger cuts to their budgets than any other part of the public sector, around 30%.”