Mr Clive Betts
MP for Sheffield South East · Labour · United Kingdom
“I wholeheartedly welcome the Foreign Secretary’s statement, both its content and its tone. I would like to ask about his discussions with our colleagues and allies in other countries who are looking to implement similar sanctions.”
“I offer two congratulations: first, to my right hon. Friend and constituency neighbour, the First Secretary, on her well-deserved promotion—I am sure she will do an excellent job. Secondly, I congratulate her and the Prime Minister for their real commitment to devolution, which I have wanted to see for an awfully long time.”
“I apologise for the fact that—as I have explained to you, Madam Deputy Speaker—I will have to leave straight after my question to chair Westminster Hall. I thank my right hon. Friend for doing this very challenging piece of work. I think that the theme of fairness, for the people who need benefits and for taxpayers, is right.”
“On the other hand, so many constituents with really serious conditions get turned down for PIP, and can get it only if they struggle through the appeal system, sometimes without any help at all. So the system is not fair to anyone at present.”
“When the previous Government let the contract, we were in a situation in which procurement could not properly take account of the past record of companies, and I understand that the Government have now changed that.”
“I will dive very deeply into the question, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Chair of the Committee sends his apologies for his absence; he is presently in a Committee meeting.”
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“My right hon. Friend is right to be concerned about the capacity of Sheffield Midland station, particularly if we want to increase the number of trains to Manchester, for example. There is an additional problem that he might like to mention, which is that the electrification of the midland main line is not going to go ahead in the mainstream programme, and there is no money in anybody’s budget to fund this, as I understand it.”
“I continue to support the third runway at Heathrow as the best option for my constituency in Sheffield, but given the delays we are still roughly 10 years away from the runway being up and running. In the meantime, Heathrow is running at around 98% capacity at certain times of day, and demand will continue to increase during that 10-year period. What are the Government’s plans to manage that increased demand over the 10 years before the runway opens?”
“The Local Government Association has been asking for meetings with Ministers about the impact of these processes on councils and on how more powers can be devolved, yet in the Secretary of State’s statement I did not hear a single reference to local councils. I cannot see a single reference in the White Paper, having read through it very quickly. Will he now commit the Government to having meaningful discussions with the LGA, and will he commit to the principle of subsidiarity, too?”
“I still have concerns about voting for the Bill—concerns that I felt when I argued strongly for remain in the referendum. In the end, though, I am more concerned about the damage to democracy if I do not vote for the Bill.”
“My constituents do not want to pay tariffs on imports from the EU; they want assurances that the food they eat in the future will be safe, as it is now; they want to see co-operation on environmental matters, on defence, on security and on science and research; and they want to keep the same employment rights and protections as they now enjoy. They do not want to see a race to the bottom to reduce taxation on corporate matters so that we can compete with offshore tax havens elsewhere. In the end, if we are to keep those issues on the agenda, it is important that Parliament is regularly updated on progress on the discussions, and this Parliament must have a vote on the final outcome, just as the European Parliament will.”
“Those concerns were expressed to me by people from different ethnic backgrounds—people from the Pakistani, Kashmiri, Bangladeshi and Somali communities, as well white British residents. I feel that if we now fail to listen to those genuinely held concerns, the disillusionment with politicians and politics will simply grow, and we risk driving those people into the arms of the racists, who actually do want to put forward a completely different agenda. At the same time I recognise that although I will vote for the Bill, it is still important for Sheffield’s industry to have free access to EU markets.”
“In the end, I will listen to my constituents and their views, because my constituency voted overwhelmingly to leave. The reason my constituents gave me on the doorstep was that many of them felt left behind by economic progress over a number of decades; they felt they were not in control of their lives; they felt that we, the political class as their representatives, were not listening to them. One of the fundamental issues of concern related to unrestricted immigration from the EU. That is the honest information that they gave to me, which I am relaying to the House. People who are not racists still have genuine concerns about the impact on their public services and their jobs, pay and conditions from that unrestricted immigration.”
“As my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer), the shadow Brexit Secretary, said at the beginning of the debate, this is very difficult for many of us on the Opposition side of the Chamber. I strongly supported remain in the referendum campaign, and I did so because I believed it was in the interests of the country and the constituency I represent. I thought that the economic arguments advanced by the remain campaign would, in the end, succeed, but that was not the case. In the end, I did not ask the people for their views in order not to listen to what they said. I accept that a vote for this Bill only opens the exit door, but ultimately it is likely to mean that, as a result, we leave the EU.”
“Although there is money in the first year to help local government with start-up costs, after the regulations have been put in place, the Act will probably not be implemented for about a year. We then have a second year with limited funding, and then no funding in the third year, which is probably the second year of operation. I have concerns about that. I cannot see that there will not be costs to local councils, so I think there is a need for a more immediate review after the Bill is passed, with regard to that third year. If Ministers are looking at a quicker, more immediate review of the finances as soon as the Bill is passed, that would be helpful. The Select Committee would be ready to do an immediate review on that very limited basis, if it would assist the process.”
“Within those tenancies, people can get the certainty of an agreed annual rent increase, which is different from having an artificially imposed rent control from outside. In the here and now, money is absolutely crucial to the Bill’s success. We are getting a little confused about the timings of reviews. From the Select Committee’s point of view, two years on from implementation seems to be a good time to review whether the legislation is working and whether the money available had enabled it to work over the previous two years. I hope that the Minister sees the commitment to a review as a helpful proposal. Alongside the Government, we will review the working of the legislation and the position regarding money.”
“We hope that it will be published before the end of February, when Ministers will be coming before our Committee to give evidence as part of our inquiry into the capacity of the housebuilding industry. We will be able to pursue further some of the points about the ability to provide the homes that are needed at that time. I hope that, as the Minister for Housing and Planning seems to be indicating, we will see a move away from the idea that starter homes and shared ownership are the total answer to the country’s housing needs. A lot has been said about longer-term tenancies in the private rented sector. The hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) is absolutely right. When the Select Committee looked at that in the previous Parliament, we supported longer-term tenancies. We want to encourage everyone to move towards them.”
“I will be brief because I recognise that we want to get to the final stages of this excellent Bill by the end of the sitting. In terms of wider reach, the Bill is of course only a partial solution. The report of the Communities and Local Government Committee on homelessness drew attention to wider issues that need to be addressed. We need to build more homes in this country, particularly more affordable homes, and we need to build more affordable homes to rent. The Committee recognised that housing needs vary in different parts of the country. Different housing markets need a different response, particularly in terms of tenure mix. We look forward to the housing White Paper, which we understand is coming soon.”
“I hope that Ministers will welcome that as another way in which the Select Committee can play a constructive role in this private Member’s Bill process by ensuring that the legislation has cross-party support and really works for homeless people.”
“Many of those important issues are in the existing code of guidance, but authorities have not implemented the code or addressed them. We all hope that the Bill will be enacted before long. The Minister said helpfully in Committee that he will present the code of guidance to Parliament for approval, which is welcome. Our Select Committee has said that we will quickly arrange an evidence session on the code because we want to make sure that it is right. Getting the Act right but having a code of guidance that does not work will leave us no better off; getting both of them right will make the situation much better so that local authorities are able to address the issue of homeless families.”
“The code of guidance, which was discussed at length in the Bill Committee—I had a discussion about it with the Minister outside the room and then we referred to it in Committee—will be important to make it clear to local authorities how they should treat a family who are subject to a section 21 notice and in priority need. They will need to make sure that they do not get to the court stage before action is taken. It is also important for making sure that an offer acknowledges, as far as possible, an individual family’s circumstances with regard to the schooling of children, the employment of family members, caring responsibilities and so on. Moreover, if a family have to be offered accommodation outside the borough, the receiving borough has to be notified that they are coming.”
“I had concerns that the specific requirement to deal with homelessness once a section 21 notice had been served, rather than allowing the matter to get to court, which was in a previous version of clause 1, had been taken out. I accept that the requirement for local authorities to exercise the prevention duty means that as soon as a section 21 notice is served and the family provide the local authority with that information, the duty kicks in and the local authority immediately has to seek to resolve the family’s homelessness and look for alternative accommodation for them.”
“One of the worst aspects of the way in which homeless families are currently treated—even those who are acknowledged to have a priority need—is that they are told to go away, sit at home and wait for the court to hear their case, and that then the authority may act, once a court order has been made, to deal with their situation. In the very worst cases, they are told, “Wait until the bailiff has arrived and while you are out on the street, we might decide to deal with you as a homeless family.” That situation is not acceptable, so it is important that it changes as a result of this Bill. The hon. Gentleman said that, importantly, the 56-day provision will not end responsibility—the prevention duty continues beyond that time if a family does not yet have settled circumstances.”
“Friend the Member for Hammersmith (Andy Slaughter) said, there has been a great deal of discussion not only in the House, by Members on both sides, but outside it with the charities arguing the case for homeless people, the Local Government Association and landlords, among others, to try to get this right. It is important that we do get it right, even though the process has taken a bit longer than some of us would have wished. Once again, I pay tribute to the diligence and forbearance of the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) in trying to get us moving forward in a consensual manner on these issues. As he said, it took us a long time to get to this version of clause 1, which has appeared in many formats. It goes to the heart of the concerns that many of us have about the workings of existing legislation.”
“When we discuss a Bill on Report, there are times when we find ourselves dealing with an awful lot of Government amendments and suspect that Ministers are trying, at the last minute, to slide one or two contentious issues past the House under the radar, thinking that people might miss them due to the great complexity of our discussions— [ Interruption. ] I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) never did that when he was a Minister, as he has just indicated. This, however, is not one of those occasions. As my hon.”
“That is very helpful. The Select Committee might well want to extend its remit and look at those codes of practice as well to make sure that everything is working. Indeed, the Minister has gone further by saying that he wants local authorities to indicate to the Government how they intend to implement the Bill. Ministers want to work with the LGA to get templates for how elements of the Bill, including giving advice to individuals who are not in priority need, should be implemented. Those are welcome measures and the LGA will want to be thoroughly involved in the process. With those comments about the issues that will need to be addressed once the Bill becomes an Act, I am happy to support the Government amendments.”
“I thank the Minister for that helpful clarification. The Committee will try to play a constructive role in that. We welcome the code of guidance coming to us, and we will as quickly as possible take a look at it and get comments back to him. Equally, if the code of practice is coming to the House, we will probably want to play a role as part of that formal process as well.”
“We hope that Ministers will look at this to see whether, on occasion, payments direct to landlords, where tenants are satisfied that that is appropriate, can help to stop such problems occurring—and stop homelessness occurring, given that one of the major causes is the loss of private rented tenancies, as we heard in evidence. With just those caveats about issues that we need to look at further, I very much welcome and support this Bill. I am really pleased that we have got to this stage. Once again, I particularly thank the hon. Member for Harrow East for selecting this subject and for operating so consensually and collectively to get the Bill to this stage.”
“It is also important that Government Departments get their act together and understand that the policies of one Department can affect the operation of policy in another. In our report we drew attention to welfare reform in general terms, and to the particular issue of the withdrawal of housing benefit from 18 to 21-year-olds and how that can affect people. Young people who lose a job should not be put out on the streets or forced out of their home while they try to find another one. We addressed the problems with universal credit and the difficulties that can be created, and already are being created in some parts of the country, in driving up rent arrears. That is a serious potential problem.”
“The word “soon” has an expandable quality in Government circles, but I certainly hope it will be before the end of March. Building enough homes, particularly homes that people can afford, or afford to rent, is absolutely crucial in dealing with the problem of homelessness in the long term. I will not go into issues about the sell-off of high-value assets, although it is interesting that the permanent secretary used the word “if” in relation to that when she came to talk to us. Of course, Ministers could not possibly comment, but let us hope that there may be substance to the word “if” on this occasion. We want co-operation in dealing with homelessness. Organisations at the local level—health authorities and others—need to properly engage with councils in tackling homelessness. That is absolutely crucial.”
“That is very important, and the Committee will follow the Bill with a look at the new burdens review the Government are doing, at the code of practice—when it is produced—at the code of guidance and then at the two-year review of how the Act is operating. Let me finish by saying that the Select Committee’s initial report looked at the wider issues. There is still the issue of the shortage of homes in this country. We are now doing an inquiry into the capacity of the house building industry, and as part of that we hope to ask Ministers questions about the housing White Paper. I think that the permanent secretary said when she came to the Select Committee two weeks ago that it will be available soon, and we hope it will be.”
“It was around a year ago that the Committee started taking evidence. Indeed, I have the report here—I carry it around with me at all times, of course—and we had our first hearing on Monday 14 March. It is appropriate that, on that occasion, some of our first witnesses were from Crisis, St Mungo’s and Shelter, and they have certainly been an important part of this whole process, along with other organisations. As I mentioned on Second Reading, the way in which the Select Committee was involved from the beginning—doing our report and then the pre-legislative scrutiny—has not merely followed precedents, but actually set precedents for the House, and I hope those precedents will be followed on other occasions.”
“Friend the Member for Hammersmith (Andy Slaughter), who has obviously held the Government to account, and quite rightly, including on some broader issues today. Nevertheless, he has played a constructive and positive role. My hon. Friends the Members for Westminster North (Ms Buck) and for Dulwich and West Norwood (Helen Hayes), who are here with me, also played their role. I want to say a little about the Select Committee. It is good that, as well as the hon. Member for Harrow East and my hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich and West Norwood, the hon. Member for Northampton South (David Mackintosh) has seen this process right the way through. Indeed, I think I am right in saying that he first suggested that the Select Committee look at homelessness as the subject of a report.”
“Gentleman for what he has done. The cross-party nature of proceedings extended right through the Bill Committee to all Members. That applied particularly to the Minister— [ Interruption. ] I thought for a minute that he had gone—that he had given up and left us to it, but he is still there. Throughout, he engaged with all members of the Committee. Where we had issues we needed exploring, he tried to deal with them in the Committee, but also outside—either himself or through his officials. That is really appreciated. Even today, he has suggested ways in which the Select Committee can continue to be involved in the code of practice, the code of guidance and the reviews. That is really constructive and helpful, and it shows a recognition of how the whole House can make a contribution. I also congratulate my hon.”
“Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman)—on this occasion, I will reciprocate and call him my hon. Friend. We should not underestimate the amount of time, sheer hard work and effort that he and his staff have put into bringing the Bill to this stage, as well as the forbearance—there must have been times when he was tearing his hair out. [ Interruption. ] Yes, it’s the same with my hair. He must have been tearing his hair out at the complexities and at the need to get different competing forces together to take the Bill forward on a consensus basis. There have not necessarily been problems with getting consensus across this House, but there has been a lot of consensus-building to do outside, and everyone does not always see and appreciate that. I express many thanks and congratulations from the whole House, I think, to the hon.”
“This is obviously a time for congratulations, and I shall not disappoint, but we should still remember that, tonight, in this rich country, there will be people sleeping rough on our streets, individuals sleeping on sofas that belong to friends, families trying to live with relatives in overcrowded accommodation, and other families living in unacceptable and inadequate interim accommodation. We also have to be careful not to give the impression that, as a result of this Bill, all these problems will be resolved. It will make a contribution to solving the homelessness problem, but it will not actually solve it. It will help to reduce homelessness—that is what the title of the Bill says—but it will not, of itself, solve the problem of homelessness. However, congratulations are due, particularly to the hon.”
“Order. Five hon. Members wish to speak, and I want to start the Front-Bench wind-up speeches at 3.38 pm. That gives us about 35 minutes—about seven minutes each. Will Members keep to that guideline?”
“I thank all hon. Members for being so co-operative with the time available to make sure that we got everyone in and they had a full opportunity to contribute. I now call the Minister.”
“On the issue of redistribution, we currently have the needs assessment, and indeed the Government are going to conduct another review of needs before they start the new 100% business rates retention system. The House has information each year on the needs assessment within the local government financial settlement and, indeed, votes upon it. I understand, however, that in future we are not going to have that system; instead, we are going to have something called the principles of allocation statement, which is made and set for the rest of the period over which the system runs. The principles of allocation statement will not come to this House for approval, however. Why is the House being circumvented in this decision-making process?”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way a second time. I entirely accept his explanation in relation to the year-on-year arrangements, because there will not be a change every year in needs assessment as there currently is; that will be fixed for the period of a longer settlement. What is essential, however, is that right at the beginning of this new system, when the new needs assessment has been done and an allocation is agreed in the first principles of allocation statement, that comes back to this House so that we can take a view on it.”
“I rise to support this Bill in principle, although much of the detail, which will determine whether it will be effective in practice, is not in the legislation itself, but will be worked out in due course. Just in passing, I note that the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) gave himself credit for the uniform business rate system. I noticed that he did not give himself credit for the other part of that Act when it came in at the same time.”
“If we build that into the system right at the beginning, the system will never succeed in doing its job. Let us have an independent look at social care, and at whether some other form of funding needs to come in to support it in the long term.”
“Businesses could then understand that, although they could not have an immediate say in linking the money raised from business rates to a particular project, their taxes are, in principle, related to business activities in their area. I also say to Ministers that if we are to have a new system, there are still powers under section 31 for them to give grants. We cannot consider a whole new system without looking at social care. We have to look at a long-term, revised arrangement for funding social care. One of the real concerns—it came out during our inquiry—is that social care demands are likely to increase faster than income from business rates. If we are relying on income from business rates to fund social care in the long term, there is bound to be a growing disparity.”
“If it is the latter, how is the needs assessment going to work with the reset periods? Again, I think that it would be much easier if the needs assessment were done in relation to a separate grant kept within the system. I accept that if we had a separate revenue support grant we would need to devolve even more powers to local government to absorb the money from that grant, but it might be easy to do, and it would be in the spirit of devolution then to devolve even more powers. I ask the Minister to look at our Committee’s report in that regard. I am pleased that tenants allowance has been taken off the agenda. If we are going to devolve powers, can we make them powers that are relevant to business mainly in relation to transport and skills, which were asked for in relation to economic development?”
“Will Ministers look at some form of rolling reset— this is an interesting idea that the Committee heard in our inquiry—so that we do not have a cliff edge where we say, “Right, all the extra business development you have had in the past six years will now be stopped in the system and the whole thing will be reset.” What happens if there is a new development only six months before the reset? Why would any authority want to encourage that development when, if it waited another few months, it would fall into the new period and get the benefit of the business rate for longer? Those are some technical issues that we really need to address. Will we have a new needs assessment every reset period, or will the needs assessment that is done at the beginning of the system last in perpetuity?”
“I welcome the fact that Ministers are going to be doing the new needs assessment with the Local Government Association, which I understand will have a working group. The Communities and Local Government Committee will do some research on that as well. Let me move on to the complications with resetting in the system, which is really important. If we reset too often, we take the incentives away, but if we do not reset often enough struggling authorities will struggle for longer.”
“By far the biggest challenge in this Bill is how we marry the need to give incentives for development, which I entirely accept, with the need to equalise within the system—to recognise those authorities that cannot grow their base as rapidly as others but still have needs that are high and that might grow in future. My concern is that trying to do that with one tax is a bit like trying to play a round of golf with one club. Can we really do competing things—equalise and incentivise—with the same tax, or are we going to keep some form of grant to do the equalisation, which might make the system an awful lot simpler? Equalisation is never simple, but it could become more complicated because it is now being addressed as part of the business rate system. I will leave that with Ministers to think about.”
“We had an enormous amount of evidence in our inquiry that showed that the appeals system is a major problem for councils. Rather than falling on the central pot, the cost of appeals potentially falls on individual councils. I understand that, collectively, local authorities are holding back about £1.5 billion in reserves to cushion against appeals. When my own local authority in Sheffield gave evidence, it said that 33% of its business rate base was subjected to appeal, which is a very high figure. We need to deal with that uncertainty for local councils.”
“It would be right and more democratic if councils themselves had the ability to determine business rate multipliers at a local level, even if they did it on a joint basis with other councils. That would take us back to the system that operated before the hon. Member for Christchurch had his say and brought in the new legislation. I do not know why Ministers are so resistant in this regard, because, in the end, if councils cannot determine multipliers, they have very limited ability to raise income from business rates. I accept that they can do it by approving development—the whole purpose of this is to give more incentives to do that—but that is limited control indeed. It still leaves us with a very centralised system. There are some important details that we must get right.”
“I have one little point about this proposed legislation: in future, this House will no longer be able to approve Ministers’ decisions on the threshold at which local authorities have to bring in a referendum to have a council tax increase. That is yet another power taken away from this House. I hope that, at some point, Members will have the chance to express a view on that. On the business rate retention, it is a 100% retention of the growth in business rates—that is what the system means—with no power to determine multipliers, except to reduce them. On the supplement, in very limited cases—for mayoral combined authorities or the Greater London Authority—the business rate can be increased by a very small amount for specific projects.”
“This Bill, in a very small way, goes in that direction, but it still leaves us the most centralised country in western Europe. I thought the Minister was getting a little bit carried away at the end of his speech when he called the measure “revolutionary”. I cannot really see this as a revolutionary change in local government finance. It leaves us with local authorities having to rely on council tax—I have no problem with that—which raises about 28% of local government finance. It is the only tax in central and local government that needs a referendum to increase it beyond a given amount, which is determined by the Secretary of State.”
“My concern is that, since 2010, local government has received far more than its fair share of the austerity measures, and that local councils, such as my own northern council in Sheffield, have received more than their fair share of the cuts that local government as a whole has had to endure. I welcome the devolutionary approach that the coalition Government took and that this Government are now taking, but only as far as it goes. I recognise that devolution cannot simply be about devolving powers and giving councils more control over money that Government give to them, but councils must have more ability to raise that money in the first place. Fiscal devolution is just as important, and the Committee has recognised that.”
“The hon. Gentleman is the last Member standing who supports that legislation. Let me refer to the first report this Parliament of the Communities and Local Government Committee, which went into considerable detail about the Government’s proposals on business rates. As we were conducting our inquiry, the Government announced a further consultation, so this was a list of matters for the Government to consider, which I hope they are doing. We had a good deal of evidence about issues that do need consideration and resolution before the system finally comes in. I will not refer to the general issues of local government finance.”
“I think that Ministers have to address that very important point. Either the Government want to give up their powers to change the business rates system once it is set, or they will bring in changes in future, in which case how will they compensate councils if they remove their grant-making powers altogether? That point is so fundamental that I think Ministers have to address it. I will end where I began. I support the Bill in principle, because it is a very small step towards more devolution and giving councils more powers and a little more control over the money they raise to spend on the important services they deliver. I cannot agree with the Minister that it is revolutionary, but it is a small step in the right direction. I look forward to seeing more of the detail, but in principle I support the Bill.”
“The previous Chancellor announced plans to extend small business rate relief and change the way in which the multiplier for business rates was calculated, from the retail prices index to the consumer prices index. Both those measures reduce the amount of money that local councils get from the business rate. What the Government have said so far, as I understand it, is that they will compensate councils in the current system for those changes, and no doubt they will be reflected in the amount of money taken forward for the new system for which councils will then get new responsibilities. What would happen if a Chancellor were to make some similarly drastic changes to the business rate system? How would local councils be compensated if there were no revenue support grant to do so?”
“I am not sure that we could get that into the Bill, given its long title. The Government have to think about the longer term. If they are going to completely reform the business rate system at the beginning of 2020, and the funding for the responsibilities of local councils, without addressing the fundamental problem of social care and the demand to which the hon. Gentleman rightly draws attention, with 5% year-on-year growth, they are devising a system that will fail. I do not want it to fail; I want it to succeed. I want us to give more powers and responsibilities to local councils and increase their ability to raise funds, but we need to address this problem and see it in the wider context, even if it cannot be incorporated into the Bill. I have one final point to make, and it is a very important one.”