Mr Clive Betts
MP for Sheffield South East · Labour · United Kingdom
“I wholeheartedly welcome the Foreign Secretary’s statement, both its content and its tone. I would like to ask about his discussions with our colleagues and allies in other countries who are looking to implement similar sanctions.”
“I offer two congratulations: first, to my right hon. Friend and constituency neighbour, the First Secretary, on her well-deserved promotion—I am sure she will do an excellent job. Secondly, I congratulate her and the Prime Minister for their real commitment to devolution, which I have wanted to see for an awfully long time.”
“I apologise for the fact that—as I have explained to you, Madam Deputy Speaker—I will have to leave straight after my question to chair Westminster Hall. I thank my right hon. Friend for doing this very challenging piece of work. I think that the theme of fairness, for the people who need benefits and for taxpayers, is right.”
“On the other hand, so many constituents with really serious conditions get turned down for PIP, and can get it only if they struggle through the appeal system, sometimes without any help at all. So the system is not fair to anyone at present.”
“When the previous Government let the contract, we were in a situation in which procurement could not properly take account of the past record of companies, and I understand that the Government have now changed that.”
“I will dive very deeply into the question, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Chair of the Committee sends his apologies for his absence; he is presently in a Committee meeting.”
The complete record
Every one of 4,726 lines we hold for Mr Clive Betts, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 66 of 95.
“I thank the Minister for what in almost all respects was a very positive response to the Select Committee’s report. First, I thank him for his commitment to send to the Committee the results of the evaluation of ERDF spending, which he has already contracted to do. That will be most welcome when we get it. It is a difficult task, as we appreciated in our report, but it should be worth while, to enable spending in future rounds to be even better targeted, so we welcome that completely.”
“We will await further information from him and await the reports of the review, and we might return to the issue in the Select Committee in due course.”
“Again, that sounds like a helpful response, but we will wait and see. We will start to see a different landscape of European funding decisions being made flexibly, together with other pots of money, to make a real impact locally. That is a move forward that can be welcomed. Finally, on repatriation, I am not sure where the penalties came in. It certainly was not an issue that the Government raised with us. However, it is an issue for the future. It seemed to the whole Committee to be a sensible suggestion. I hear from the Minister that, in principle, it has not been ruled out. It will be looked at in future in terms of relationships between the UK and the European Union. That is to be welcomed as well. I thank the Minister for his response.”
“On the welcome electrification of the midland main line, I am sure the Secretary of State will agree that one of the objectives is to reduce journey times, so will he confirm that the rolling stock on the newly electrified line will be the new intercity express trains that can complete the journey more quickly? The alternative is a cascade of existing rolling stock from other lines, but, because they are heavier with slower acceleration, we could find that we have longer journey times despite having spent a lot of money on electrification.”
“The figure the Minister used of councils now raising 70% of the money they spend is obviously going around the Government, because the Deputy Prime Minister mentioned it in the Liaison Committee the other day. Is not the real reason for that percentage increase simply that the amount of money going from central Government to local government has fallen, and therefore the council tax money, which has remained basically the same in most authorities, has risen as a percentage? That is the only reason why that percentage has increased.”
“Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Communities and Local Government Committee produced a report recently on councillors and the community? We looked at the barriers experienced by people, particularly younger people in work, in becoming councillors. Many of them lose income because they give up work and have to attend council meetings. Is it not an absolute disgrace to suggest that they should give up their pension as well, so that their income suffers in later life, and a discouragement to people of working age from becoming councillors?”
“That is five times more in Sheffield than other authorities. The Minister will say that Sheffield gets more grant, and because it has had more grant, there is more grant to cut. But Sheffield, like other cities, has had more grant because it has fewer resources and more need than other areas. Ministers are taking grant from areas that have traditionally had more grant, but those are the poorest, most deprived communities where the cuts are hitting hardest. That is simple reality.”
“Sheffield has a brilliant record of collecting council tax—a 99% collection rate—although that is likely to change with the changes to council tax benefits, when it will have to try to get £2, £3 or £4 from people who cannot afford it. We have saved more than £2 million a year through going to an alternate-week bin collection, and I have not had a single member of the public write to me with a discarded chicken masala in hand saying, “Our human rights have been breached by this terrible change.” It has gone very smoothly, and recycling is now rising as a result. Over a four-year period, Sheffield council will have to save £230 million. That is a reduction in spending power of £200 a head, but other councils—such as Windsor and Maidenhead, and Richmond upon Thames—have to make savings of less than £40 a head.”
“It is interesting that in the latest MORI poll two thirds of the public said that they had not yet noticed any impact from council cuts on their lives. That will change, but it shows how good councils have been so far in absorbing the savings and achieving the efficiencies that have been requested of them. But people will be affected and, frankly, the Secretary of State’s 50 ways to save the world will not save our local service. The Minister talked about the pennies being important. Of course saving pennies is important. When I went to a meeting at Sheffield council the other day I did not get tea or coffee and biscuits. They were not provided. When I do my surgery at Crystal Peaks library on Saturday morning, there is a private coffee shop in the foyer which the council has rented out. Those are the sorts of things that are being done.”
“I have to say that a little bit of me has started to wonder whether it is more comfortable for Ministers to see councils and councillors as something of a human shield—people they can hide behind or to whom they can say, “You’re the people to blame in your local council chambers.” They are the people the public can get at for making the cuts that are affecting them. There is someone between Ministers and the impact on local communities of the cuts they are making to council services. The councillors can always be blamed, and I am very concerned that it is easier for Ministers to make cuts in this area. Councils have always been very good. Under the Labour Government, when we used to have increases in council funding each year, councils were always required to make 2% efficiency savings a year.”
“The Minister talked about hard-working council tax payers, and, of course, council tax payers are, by and large, hard working; but not once did he refer to hard-working recipients of council services. People will now lose those services, which in many cases they rely on. It seems as though the Government are saying to our country and the public at large that libraries, parks, environmental health and adult social care are, in some way, second-rate services that we should have less regard for, because they are prepared to make cuts of a third to those services, but cuts of only 20% across the board to other Government services. What they are really saying is that those local services, which our communities value so much, are worth less and should be esteemed less than other things the Government do.”
“Clearly these are difficult times. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) said from the Front Bench, there will have to be reductions in local government spending. Our task today is to examine whether the cuts that have been made are fair and reasonable. Let us look at what the Local Government Association has said. It calculates that, over the four-year period of the comprehensive spending review, local council spending power will be reduced in real terms by a third. That is a significant reduction—indeed, a massive reduction. We are not just talking about local council spending; we are talking about the services that the money is spent on and the effect of the withdrawal of those services on our local communities.”
“Yes, Sheffield has around £150 million of reserves, but more than £25 million of it is held for schools, and it cannot spend that; £25 million is in the housing account, ring-fenced and dedicated; some £50 million is to be allocated for capital projects; and then there is the money that has to be used to match-fund a PFI scheme that the Government have just approved—I give credit to them for taking forward that Labour scheme. That leaves around £11 million of reserves, and it would be folly for the council to put that money into services next year and leave itself with no reserves. So the council is being prudent and appropriate, as are most councils, in how it deals with that issue.”
“There are lots of factors that have been put into the formula in the past. We can all make arguments about the details. For example, it is more expensive to provide services in Sheffield because of its topography. We have hills, so construction costs, such as for the tram, go up. But on the index of deprivation, the most deprived areas will get the biggest cuts. There is no argument about that—if there were, Ministers would be jumping up to the Dispatch Box to deny it. The Secretary of State says, “It is all right, councils have got reserves. There is no need for cuts.” That is not true.”
“At the end of the day, these cuts are not going to hit councils; they are going to hit communities, and they are going to hit the most deprived communities hardest. When the public, already sceptical, see these cuts become a reality, the anger against this Government will grow considerably in the coming months.”
“It is not just Labour-controlled Sheffield that is doing that; many councils up and down the country and of all political persuasions are approaching things responsibly in that sort of way. The Government should listen to the siren voices—Sir Merrick Cockell, Baroness Eaton, the leader of Kent county council. These are not just siren voices, but voices of reason. The graph of doom, whether it comes from Birmingham, Barnet or Sheffield, is a reality. The reality is that if we keep on cutting council funding and the demand for social care goes up, other council services are going to get squeezed out of existence. Ministers are fond of saying that localism is not just about councils. No, it is not; it is about communities as well.”
“What the council is doing is a very detailed and proper consultation, recognising that it simply cannot afford to keep libraries going in the way they were funded in the past. It is looking at 10 different models from 10 different authorities across the country. Those are out for public consultation on the different ways of doing things. That is a responsible way to try to approach a very difficult situation. The council was also ridiculed by the Deputy Prime Minister for spending £2 million on council meeting rooms. No, it has not done so. It has had to make some essential repairs to a grade 1 listed building, the town hall, and it is putting money into reorganising the council accommodation to save £30 million in running costs over a 10-year period.”
“That is why not so many new homes are being built in Sheffield—it is not through want of trying or want of effort on the part of the council. I note that the council was blamed by the Deputy Prime Minister the other day when he said that it was cutting front-line services. Yes, it is. There is a proposal to close the Don Valley stadium where Jessica Ennis trained because there is not enough money to keep it going. There are cuts to early-years provision because the council has lost more than £6 million in grant directly, so it cannot be kept going. There are cuts to the eligibility criteria for adult social care. The Deputy Prime Minister ridiculed the council for cuts to libraries.”
“There are smoke and mirrors all over the place. Ministers talk about the new homes bonus as if it were new money as well as new homes. It is not: it is top-sliced from the grant. In Sheffield’s case, the figures are very stark. For every 55p the council gets from the new homes bonus, it would have received £1 if the money had been allocated through the grants system. It is not that Sheffield does not want to build new homes. There is a reason. The market is flat in the private sector, the money for housing associations comes through the Homes and Communities Agency and the money for council housing is not there because the Government have capped the amount councils can spend from the housing revenue account.”
“Assuming that the Deputy Prime Minister does not support the creation of an English parliament or elected regional assemblies, does he accept that if devolution in England is to work, local authorities have to be at the heart of the process and not bypassed as the Secretary of State for Education wants? Will he therefore look closely at the proposals from the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee to put the relationships between central and local government on a proper constitutional footing?”
“I hope to find a bit of common ground with the Minister. He knows that local authority borrowing is covered by prudential guidelines, apart from borrowing for house building, which is covered by a separate cap imposed by the Treasury. Given that housing finance accounts are now separate, if a local authority were allowed to borrow up to the prudential limits for house building, it could potentially borrow to build another 60,000 homes without any cost to the Treasury. In other countries, that would not even count as Government borrowing. Is the Minister prepared to look at that as one way of kick-starting house building and creating more jobs in the construction industry?”
“Seven hon. Members want to speak. If I allow 10 minutes for the wind-ups, there is a maximum of seven minutes for everyone who speaks. I cannot enforce the guideline, which is advisory, but it would be helpful if Members kept to it.”
“When the Secretary of State first announced the settlement for next year he referred to a cut in spending power of 1.7%. Will he confirm that that should have been 2.6%, as he double-counted the council tax support money? Will he also confirm that the cash handed over to local authorities in the start-up funding assessment next year will be 8.4% less than this year’s formula grant, which it replaces? Will the Secretary of State stop pretending that cuts of that magnitude can be managed without hitting front-line services?”
“I welcome the Secretary of State’s announcement of an HS2 station in Sheffield. There is an argument for having it in the city centre, but I understand why he has chosen Meadowhall on grounds of cost and time. In particular, it should be a station for the whole city region. Will he therefore give an assurance that his Department will work closely with local councils and South Yorkshire passenger transport executive to make sure that there is real connectivity in the whole Sheffield city region so that everyone can get to the station at Meadowhall easily?”
“I will call the Front-Bench spokesmen from 10.40 am. That gives no more than eight minutes each for all the other Members who want to speak. That is a voluntary arrangement, but I hope we can keep to it.”
“The removal of pensions from councillors will do nothing to encourage younger people in employment to come forward and stand for public service. Will he reflect on what he said at the Select Committee last week, and listen to his colleagues in local government? He dismissed the graph of doom then, but might he now start to think that this is not simply a fantasy, as he has claimed, but a reality of his own making, which has come into effect more quickly and more harshly with the withdrawal and destruction of public services in the poorest communities in our country?”
“It is possible that in the next financial year more councils, including Conservative-controlled ones, will decide to increase their council tax. Councils are worried that although help has been made available for a council tax freeze, the Government may decide not only not to continue with it beyond 2013, but to withdraw the help made available for previous years, thus creating a black hole in council finances. Will the Secretary of State give a categorical assurance that the money made available in 2013 for the council tax freeze will be made available to councils on a permanent basis?”
“Has the Minister now solved the problem with the keeping of statistics on planning performance agreements, which could twist what a local authority does? Will he take that into account and do it retrospectively?”
“The part of the industry most in difficulty comprises the small builders; the volume house builders and larger companies have simply reduced how much they are building. The small builders build on small sites which, by their very nature, do not have section 106 agreements attached to them, yet it is those schemes that have largely stopped across the country, again because of a lack of customers and the fact that banks, by and large, have withdrawn finance from that section of the industry. In that area, there has been almost no growth at all; in fact, the industry is now at a standstill. Once again, that is not due to section 106 agreements.”
“I want to raise a number of points on which I hope the Minister can provide the reassurance that, in previous debates in the Chamber and before the Communities and Local Government Committee, he has not provided. First, where is the evidence of a problem? The Homes and Communities Agency wrote to me to say that it had had no difficulties with section 106 agreements holding up any of its schemes. The volume house builders, to which I presume the Minister talks—I have been at meetings with them—say that the problem is not the section 106 agreements or the planning system, but getting customers who have access to finance and the confidence to spend it walking through their doors wanting to buy their homes.”
“The Minister needs to address that worry and include some proper time periods, as my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham has suggested.”
“Friend the Member for City of Durham mentioned the possibility of revisiting the issue after one year and reinstating higher levels of affordable housing for any scheme. That is a really important point, because the worry that some people have about the proposal is that developers will simply say that schemes are not viable; renegotiate them so that less affordable housing has to be provided; and sit on the land and wait till times become more propitious—when they can sell the houses for more, sell more houses and provide fewer for rent. In the meantime nothing will happen. In other words, instead of a stimulus to growth, the proposals could defer development and increase the profitability of the schemes so that fewer affordable or rented houses are produced.”
“They will be very suspicious if, without such criteria in the Bill, the Secretary of State seems to be doing a deal behind the scenes—whether or not it is called the Planning Inspectorate—which results in the withdrawal of the affordable homes that they thought were being built, and to which they and their families would have access, and different amounts of affordable housing, if any, being agreed for the site. That is why it is important that the Minister states upfront the criteria that will be used to change the affordable housing component that communities will assume will be negotiated for their areas. Finally, the lack of rigorous time scales in the proposals is worrying. My hon.”
“The right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) made the point about viability and whether we can trust developers when they say that a scheme is not viable. By what criteria will they and the Secretary of State be judged if a scheme is changed and fewer affordable houses are built? The Minister must accept that 106 agreements are not often backroom deals made in isolation between council officials and developers; they are often out there and scrutinised not merely by councillors, but by the public affected by them. Communities want to know what will be built in their areas and whether rented homes will be available for people who cannot afford to buy.”
“We need mixed schemes where everyone, irrespective of their tenure, can live together side by side. I thought that was the Government’s policy. We had an interesting discussion about that in the Select Committee. We asked the Minister why, if £300 million was to be made available to provide additional rented homes in order to compensate for the ones lost under section 106 agreements, those properties could not be built on the same sites as the schemes in question in order to increase their viability. As I understand it, that is precisely what my hon. Friend’s amendment 46 would do, so will the Minister respond favourably to it? It would simply put into the Bill the idea that he seemed to welcome in the Select Committee the other day. I look forward to his response. I turn to amendment 44, which was also tabled by my hon. Friend.”
“If developers have a problem with viability, why is he championing the community infrastructure levy and 106 agreements that are currently providing infrastructure for non-housing elements while targeting the housing element of 106 agreements? Why is that necessary? Again, we have had no answer from him. On the housing element, I want to return to a point that we discussed in the Select Committee the other day and which my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods) just made very strongly. I refer to the crucial issue of mixed housing developments. I would have thought that there would be cross-Chamber support for the idea of mixed housing developments. We do not want people in owner-occupied houses in one place and a smaller number of rented homes completely segregated on a different site.”
“I put to the right hon. Gentleman a point that has already been made very effectively: why, then, are the Government targeting only the social and affordable housing element of section 106 agreements? What about the rest of the obligations on developers? Do they not cause a problem too? In an earlier debate—I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman was present—when challenged by his colleagues behind him about the need to ensure proper infrastructure, the Minister talked about the need for the community infrastructure levy to provide the resources to ensure that that infrastructure was provided.”
“No doubt the Secretary of State will confirm that, following the introduction of universal credit, when people’s incomes change they will have to go to the local council to sort out their council tax benefit changes, and to the DWP to sort out their housing benefit changes. Two visits, or two contacts, will be required as a result of one change of income. What progress is the Department making in discussing with councils the need to provide a joined-up service so that, in future, people will need make only one contact when their incomes change?”
“The Secretary of State will be aware of the direct payments pilot schemes, which are taking place before universal credit, before the bedroom tax and before the changes to council tax benefit. Is he aware that the pilots are showing an increase in rent arrears due to an increase in partial payments? If that remains the case at the end of the pilots, is he prepared to change policy to make it easier for rent payments to be made direct to the landlord?”
“Since March, neither the management nor the unions at Remploy Sheffield have received any information about, or any assistance with, securing the future of their factory. I have identified some local business people who may be interested in becoming involved. They contacted Remploy HQ, but received no reply. I have tried to set up a meeting between a local Remploy manager and these local business people, but he says that he cannot meet them, because everything has to go through KPMG. Is it not time for the Minister to start cutting through the bureaucracy and provide real assistance to people who want to become involved in trying to keep Remploy Sheffield as a going concern?”
“A few months ago, the Government made the welcome announcement of the intention to electrify the midland main line to Sheffield, which the Secretary of State knows very well, by 2019. There is now a concern that the timetable may be slipping, and that only part of the route may be done by 2019. May we have an unambiguous statement from the Minister that the intention still is to electrify the whole of the line to Sheffield by 2019?”
“When the regional development agencies were in existence, they provided important match funding to enable European regional development fund money to be properly used. When the Communities and Local Government Committee looked at this, we suggested that a portion of the regional growth fund be earmarked to ensure that all our ERDF money could be properly spent. That suggestion was turned down. If we do not spend all the ERDF money to ensure that we create the maximum number of jobs, will it be the Minister’s responsibility or that of his colleagues in the Department for Communities and Local Government?”
“T6. Polestar, a major printing works in my constituency, has created hundreds of well-paid jobs through its investment in recent years. However, its bid to the regional growth fund to create hundreds more jobs has been turned down. Will the Minister look at how such firms can get good quality feedback, so that hopefully they can submit successful bids in future and create those jobs?”
“Gentleman’s amendment if he presses it. However, I support all the provisos put forward by the Chair of the Finance and Services Committee. We must continue to monitor the situation to ensure that the principles that he rightly laid out are adhered to.”
“There is a fundamental flaw with the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Harlow. It would be wrong to agree to a spending plan today without agreeing to the income proposals on the other side. If we did that and the income proposals were rejected in a further debate, we would have agreed a net spending level that was not sustainable. We would then have to increase the level of net spending, in which case we would not make the 17% reductions, or agree to other specific spending reductions to allow for the income that we would not raise. It is important, if we are to have a serious debate about the financial plan and come to a serious conclusion—as I am sure we will—that we agree to the totality of the plan, including the spending proposals and the income proposals. That is why I will vote against the hon.”
“However, when people come in simply as visitors, I see no reason why we cannot charge them, just as they can be charged by Westminster abbey or Buckingham palace. I really do not see the difference. This place is expensive because of the nature of the building. It is a world heritage site. People come here just to admire the building or to look at the art collections and other things. It is reasonable that we should ask them to make a contribution. The Chair of the Administration Committee is right that many organisations already pay to use this building. They rightly and properly get the sponsorship of an MP, who signs a form to enable them to do that. Why should they not be able to use the buildings at weekends when the place is empty and contribute towards the costs of running it?”
“Indeed, I hope that at some point we will commit ourselves to a living wage in this place, so that people who face the very high costs of living in London can be paid a little more for the work that they do for us. Finally, I come to the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon). Like the Chair of the Finance and Services Committee, I understand why he has raised the idea, but I think that he is wrong. I subscribe absolutely to the three principles that the Chair of the Committee laid out. Of course this building has to be open and available for Members of Parliament to do their job. Nothing should be put in the way of that and we obviously have first call on the use of this building. Of course it is right for this building to be open and available for constituents to visit us and see how we work.”
“I support the amendment tabled by the Chair of the Administration Committee because, given the extent of the commitment from management and staff representatives to that process, if we said today that we would go ahead with market testing without giving those proposals a chance to be implemented to see whether they work, it would be a breach of trust with everyone who has engaged so willingly in the process to try to reach a successful conclusion. A fundamental principle is that we must not make savings or reductions in expenditure at the expense of the pay and conditions of the lowest paid workers in this building. That would be completely wrong. I worry that we would be doing that if we went to market testing, on top of the savings that can be made through the business improvement plan.”
“They are thoroughly professional and very committed to supporting our work as Members of Parliament. The way in which they have been involved in the process has been good. I talked to union representatives the other day. They are clearly not happy about every single proposal and they do not necessarily agree with all the reductions, but they are appreciative of the way in which the process has been conducted, both on the part of Members and how management have sought to engage with them. I draw attention, in particular, to the business improvement plan, which has involved a great deal of discussion with staff representatives to try to get consensus and agreement. That has largely been achieved.”
“The issues before us are detailed. In general, the way in which we have approached them has been excellent. We have been assisted by the advice of the management of the House. I put on the record my thanks to them for that. They have come forward with reports, alternatives and detailed analysis. In the past, I have sometimes questioned the way in which the management of the House have operated. Sometimes they have provided alternatives to Members, but sometimes the process has been very opaque. On this occasion, they have been detailed and helpful. They have certainly operated in a very professional manner. I pay tribute, as did the Chair of the Finance and Services Committee, to the staff of the House as a whole. The service that they give us is excellent.”