Mr Clive Betts
MP for Sheffield South East · Labour · United Kingdom
“I wholeheartedly welcome the Foreign Secretary’s statement, both its content and its tone. I would like to ask about his discussions with our colleagues and allies in other countries who are looking to implement similar sanctions.”
“I offer two congratulations: first, to my right hon. Friend and constituency neighbour, the First Secretary, on her well-deserved promotion—I am sure she will do an excellent job. Secondly, I congratulate her and the Prime Minister for their real commitment to devolution, which I have wanted to see for an awfully long time.”
“I apologise for the fact that—as I have explained to you, Madam Deputy Speaker—I will have to leave straight after my question to chair Westminster Hall. I thank my right hon. Friend for doing this very challenging piece of work. I think that the theme of fairness, for the people who need benefits and for taxpayers, is right.”
“On the other hand, so many constituents with really serious conditions get turned down for PIP, and can get it only if they struggle through the appeal system, sometimes without any help at all. So the system is not fair to anyone at present.”
“When the previous Government let the contract, we were in a situation in which procurement could not properly take account of the past record of companies, and I understand that the Government have now changed that.”
“I will dive very deeply into the question, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Chair of the Committee sends his apologies for his absence; he is presently in a Committee meeting.”
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“The reality, surely, is that on day one councils will receive what they are currently paying out in council tax benefit, minus 10%. They will have no choice about where that 10% comes from, because pensioners will be protected—we might support that—as will people in work, because councils have to observe the 65% tapers under the universal credit. In the end, therefore, the totality of those cuts will fall on the unemployed of working age, leading to probably up to 20% to 30% of their benefit being withdrawn. If unemployment goes up and more people claim council tax benefit, that will mean either money drawn from other services to fund it or further cuts for those on council tax benefit who are unemployed.”
“People whose income changes will also find that they have to go to one office for council tax benefit changes and another office for housing benefit changes, which will add further confusion. The Bill does not take that into account.”
“Now, however, for the first time local authorities will find that their main source of income, council tax, will go down at a time of economic difficulty. That will create instability at the heart of local government finance. The Select Committee looked into this issue. It is impossible to believe that bringing in a system in a matter of a few months—consulting on it, designing it, bringing in all the new technology required to implement it—will not result in any disasters caused by a failure to implement things properly, and such disasters will cause genuine hardship for people. I do not think this proposal can be delivered with certainty within the time period.”
“However, if authorities take account of the tapers under universal credit, so there cannot be reductions for those in work claiming council tax benefit, the total burden will fall on the unemployed of working age who claim council tax benefit. Up to 30% of their benefit could be taken away, and if unemployment rises there will be a further reduction in income so authorities will have to cut either other services or, again, the benefits of the unemployed who are of working age. There is a further issue. Council tax has been a stable source of income for local authorities over the years. It is not like a sales tax or an income tax, in that revenue from it does not tend to fall at times of economic difficulty.”
“That is why we will now have a complicated system, and one that further centralises power by giving more powers to the Secretary of State. This is centralised localism once again. The proposal fails to achieve what the Secretary of State says he wants, which is to ensure that authorities with great needs have the same amount of resources to spend as previously. All the information we have received suggests that authorities in the greatest need will lose out. I welcome the Secretary of State’s proposal not to put council tax into the universal credit, as I think it should be kept at the local level. My problem is with the 10% savings authorities are meant to make. Rightly, pensioners will be protected from many of the cuts that that 10% saving will impose.”
“On the one hand, they want local authorities to retain them so they can provide an incentive for development in their areas and have more control over their own financial futures. On the other hand, the Government want business rates to be used as a mechanism for redistribution—for taking from areas with higher resources and giving to areas with greatest needs. That is the fundamental conflict at the heart of the Government’s proposals. They are trying to do two conflicting things with the one tax of business rates. That is why the proposal is not for a simple retention by local government that everyone could understand, whereby money raised in an area is kept in that area. Instead, we have a complicated system in order to try to ensure that one tax addresses two conflicting priorities.”
“The components of local government finance then were council tax, which councils kept, and business rates, which were taken to the centre and then redistributed, and about one third of local government revenue came in the form of central Government grant and was distributed according to the resources of councils and their needs. Under the Bill’s proposals, there will be a fundamental change. When they are introduced in 2013-14 local government finance will, essentially, come from only council tax and business rates; the Government grant element will go completely. The Government therefore face a problem. They propose that the council tax will be left as it currently stands, so they have two objectives for business rates.”
“I am a localist. I believe that this country is too centralist and that, in order to further localism, local authorities need to have more control over their own finances. In 2004, the Select Committee that I now chair produced a report on local government revenue in which it concluded that business rates income should return to local authorities, where it was raised. I have no problem in principle with measures that seek to give local authorities more incentives to encourage development in their areas and that allow them to retain more of the finance raised in their areas, but let us look at what the situation was in 2004.”
“In regard to workers who are transferred to another organisation, can the Chief Secretary confirm that their right to stay in their pension scheme will apply to all pension schemes? Will that be time-limited in any way? If the organisation to which they are transferred is taken over or changes ownership, will they still have the right to remain in the public sector pension scheme?”
“The Select Committee on Communities and Local Government was due to hold hearings to ratify the appointment, but it was only in November that the Government decided to terminate the process. That is nine months of dealing completely inadequately with an appointment to an extremely important position.”
“The other day I received a letter from the permanent secretary at the Department for Communities and Local Government, Sir Bob Kerslake—in response to a letter I sent to the Secretary of State—which provided the helpful explanation that the process for appointing an ombudsman had been halted because the Government were reconsidering the nature and focus of the post in the light of last July’s public services White Paper. We have all experienced appointment procedures in which the candidate was not deemed suitable, there was disagreement about the candidate, or we reviewed what the candidate should be doing in the light of the appointment process itself. That appears to be the case in this instance, but the difficulty is that the interviews for the post were held in February.”
“It is rather an unusual experience to hear the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) support a private Member’s Bill in the Chamber. He generally has another function in life: to prevent new rules and regulation contained in private Members’ Bills from being inflicted on people. I want to raise two issues. First, discussing a money resolution relating to a Bill giving new powers to a person who does not currently exist is a slightly strange experience. I understand that there is no local government ombudsman at present, which is a matter of concern to me.”
“The Minister cannot say that under the Bill as drafted there are no spending commitments, but he can say that there are potential spending commitments, which will be determined by unelected people. The counter-argument might be that, as the measure applies only to events that have been unreasonably banned there is a right for judicial review—in which case, why do we need the Bill? However, there is the potential for money to be spent.”
“The power to spend the money does not rest with the local authority—it effectively rests with the ombudsman—so we are almost giving a blank cheque or an undetermined ability for the ombudsman to decide in any case how much the local authority should pay in compensation, with the cost to local council tax payers determined by an unelected official, rather than elected councillors. That is a fundamental issue of public expenditure that the Bill, as drafted, opens up. The Minister may discuss amendments, but the promoter has said that the Bill has not been amended yet. As drafted, that is precisely what it would do, and I have serious concerns about it.”
“On any other matter, the ombudsman can produce a report that an authority is bound to consider and tell the ombudsman what action it will take, but in this instance there is no requirement for the authority to act in line with the ombudsman’s recommendations. As drafted, the Bill includes a clear right of redress for the ombudsman against local authorities, including the ability to compel them to pay compensation to event organisers for events that are unreasonably banned or restricted. That is where money comes in. The power that is granted in respect of that issue is different from the power in other issues with which the ombudsman deals.”
“Yes. I made my point about the ombudsman, because there are concerns about the delay to the service itself. Candidates have been waiting for nine months, and that is not an acceptable way of proceeding—I wanted to put that on the record. I understand your strictures, Mr Deputy Speaker, about the money resolution and not discussing the Bill. However, I return to what the Minister said about not envisaging the measure costing anything to local authorities. There is potential for costs and the spending of extra money precisely because of the way in which the Bill is drafted and how it deals with the extension of powers relating to health and safety. It creates a relationship between the ombudsman and the local authority that is different from the relationship in any other matter that an ombudsman considers.”
“I am more than happy to accept the hon. Gentleman’s assurance—perhaps that is what the Minister was alluding to. However, it is rather difficult to debate the Bill as drafted when there are amendments of which we are not aware that would alter its capacity to incur public expenditure. That is what we are addressing and, on that point, I shall conclude.”
“I welcome the fact that the Government at last recognise they may have some responsibility for appropriate standards being maintained in local councils. Can the Minister give an assurance, however, that where there is a serious complaint against a chief executive or leader of a council—perhaps about bullying of a junior member of staff or another councillor—the complainant will receive as robust an investigation into those complaints as under the current regime that the Government seek to abolish?”
“We on the Select Committee on Communities and Local Government received much evidence on the important issue of transitional arrangements. Does the Minister accept that the purpose of transitional arrangements is to enable local authorities to adjust to the new planning regime that will eventually be implemented, and to give them time to do so properly? There will be detailed, thorough negotiations with the Local Government Association in trying to reach an agreement about what a proper length of time for that transitional arrangement should be.”
“On 13 September 2010 at the Select Committee on Communities and Local Government, when asked whether success for this Government will mean building more homes per year than were being built prior to the recession, the Minister for Housing and Local Government replied: “Yes. Building more homes is the gold standard upon which we shall be judged.” In which year or years of this Parliament does the Prime Minister expect that gold standard to be achieved?”
“The Chief Secretary has once again said that all accrued rights will be protected. Will he confirm, however, that the change from the retail prices index to the consumer prices index will, in practice, affect the accrued rights of every single member of every public sector pension scheme?”
“The Secretary of State has earmarked funds for councils for this year and next year to encourage them to freeze council tax. Given the importance to councils of planning, is the Secretary of State thinking about what will happen in the following year? Is he likely to continue his present policy? Does he accept that if he withdraws the grant he will not have frozen council tax, but will merely have deferred two years’ increases and produced the possibility of very large increases in the following year?”
“Order. There are slightly under two hours before the winding-up speeches start, so if Members take no more than about 10 minutes they should all be called.”
“Order. A lot of people clearly want to speak, and I do not want to stop or discourage interventions, but if they are made could they be brief and to the point so that we can keep things flowing?”
“With regard to the eventual vote at the United Nations on Palestinian statehood, if the Government were to adopt a position that they would vote in favour of such a motion only if a comprehensive peace agreement had first been agreed, does not that effectively give the Israeli Government a veto over Palestine ever becoming a state?”
“Let me ask the Minister about the issue of 20%, as it is important to the context of building on land where that building will have the least environmental damage. If there is an extra 20%, will local authorities be able to prioritise which sites should be developed first within the 120% requirement? If not, it will be open to developers to cherry pick which sites they build on and it will be the land associated with the least environmental damage that will be left behind, as they will be the hardest sites to build on, while the greenfield sites will be built on first.”
“Is too much emphasis being given to economic factors, which in any decision might override environmental and social factors?”
“Will the definition be applied consistently at a local level, or will there be differences in an application and in how we apply the definition in a northern industrial town with lots of dereliction, as opposed to in a leafy suburb in the south or, indeed, in a national park? There is not much special reference in the framework to the differences that might be applicable and relevant in different areas, so we want to address those matters in particular, and it is important that we do so. People have made the point to the Committee that the framework came out of proposals for growth. There are three legs—economic, social and environmental—to the stool of sustainable development, but has the economic leg become a little longer than the other two, and is the stool becoming a little unbalanced?”
“The duty to co-operate is in place and the Minister has taken steps to strengthen it, but is it sufficient to ensure that we can deliver on those wider issues? There are some carrots, but are there any sticks? Can any penalties be imposed on local authorities that do not co-operate, and what does not co-operating actually amount to? Those are also concerns. Concerns have been raised with the Committee about sustainable development. Should there be a national definition, which is much clearer and, perhaps, written down in legislation or in the framework? Should it be included? If it is, the point that my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford) made will be important.”
“That is stated in national legislation, so there is a relationship, but is it absolutely clear, because national legislation apparently has primacy over the guidance? That relationship has to be worked through. Having listened to Government Members, I think there is clearly an issue to be worked through about the national requirements for more homes, on climate change and regional requirements on waste disposal, and on Traveller sites and how they relate to local aspirations at local planning level where there may be differences. If all the local plans and the plans for housing in them do not add up to the requirements that we need at national level to build sufficient homes, where does that leave us? There are clearly concerns that go beyond one local authority boundary.”
“Has any planning authority really said, “This is irrelevant and we have no need for it?” Is there a danger that once it is all removed at national level councils will start to look at the local level and incorporate more and more in their local plans, because if their local plan is silent on something they will worry that they will get development that they do not want? That is a concern that we must reflect on. Will simply stripping out everything and pretending that it does not matter really be of benefit? What is the precise link between the national guidance, local plans and neighbourhood plans, which are very new and untested? The framework refers a great deal to the importance of local plans, but it does not say that any application that is approved has to be consistent with the local plan.”
“Indeed, there is legal evidence suggesting that, because no local plan will be in place that has had a chance to take account of a new framework once agreed, on day one all local plans will effectively be out of date and inconsistent with the national guidance. Clearly, therefore, there must be a transition to allow change to take place. The history of changes in planning policy and legislation reveals that any change at all, and even the proposal of change, creates uncertainty and tends to cause delay, increase the number of appeals and involve the lawyers to a greater extent. We ought to look at how we can minimise those impacts and get to the best position. A number of specific concerns have been raised with the Committee which we will want to look at. First, is all the guidance that is being scrapped really useless?”
“We all welcome the fact that the Minister is listening, and hopefully he will listen to the Committee’s recommendations when they are made. If he is minded in the end to make some significant changes to his proposals, will he consider a further round of consultation? If we are really to get this right, is it not important that we have the maximum amount of dialogue, because there is a common interest in trying to ensure that the matter is taken forward in the right way. I welcome what the Minister said about transitional arrangements. We have heard much evidence suggesting that we cannot simply press a button and change from one system to another without an awful lot of problems being created.”
“Is the planning system really responsible for the lack of house building and growth in this country? Is there evidence for that? Those are the questions we should address first. If there are problems with the planning system, is it a problem of the policy and guidance, or one of process? Is the process of getting local plans agreed too lengthy? Those are the sorts of issues that the Committee wants to look at, but the fundamental question is this: is there clear evidence that planning is holding back house building and growth, or are other factors more important? The Committee has certainly heard much conflicting evidence. We had the National Trust and the Home Builders Federation sitting before us giving evidence together, so it was apparent that there are slightly different views about the wisdom of the Government’s proposals.”
“Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) to his new post and thank him for raising a number of important points in his contribution, many of which have been raised with the Committee and which we want to address. I am sure that the objectives that the Government are trying to achieve—building more homes and providing more jobs—are shared across the House. I certainly have a long-standing interest in trying to increase the number of homes being built in this country. It is a prime need and something that all Members should be interested in. The real issue, of course, is where that building and development will take place. That, in essence, is what the planning system is all about. In looking at the Government’s proposals, there are a number of questions we want to ask first.”
“The Communities and Local Government Committee, which I chair, is in the middle of an inquiry on the national planning policy framework, so, like the Minister, I do not want to come to conclusions today, as it is important to hear all the evidence before reaching any decisions. I thank the Minister for advising the Committee at an early stage of his intention to bring in a new NPPF and for asking us whether we wanted to be involved in the consultation process by conducting an inquiry. We have indicated that we will reach our conclusions before the Christmas recess as part of the consultation. I also want to welcome my right hon.”
“We will try to do so in an evidence-based way, which is how we try to operate; we will try to identify the real concerns; and, where we think that there are genuine concerns, we will try to go to the Minister with some clear proposals on how the document might be amended with benefit.”
“The Minister is looking again at that issue and, in particular, at how it relates to the additional 20% of houses and the contingency that will have to be planned for. That is very welcome, indeed. We have to look at the “town centre first” issue. Why have offices been removed from it? They are an important part of a sustainable “town centre first” strategy, so will the Minister make it clear that, if an application fails a sequential test, it will be deemed unsustainable? How does the sequential test relate to that issue? The Minister has not mentioned the needs test, which it was Conservative policy in opposition to reinstate. I opposed the previous Labour Government’s removal of it, so will he look at that issue, too? The Select Committee has a lot of issues to look at.”
“When we pushed a practitioner who was on the group that made the initial recommendations to Ministers, asking him, “What does significant mean?” he said, “Well, of course, if it wasn’t significant, it wouldn’t matter.” That is an issue, because the adverse consequences of a development might outweigh the benefits, but if they do not outweigh them in a significant and demonstrable way, the application will still have to be accepted. We have to probe some of the definitions. I welcome the Minister’s comments on brownfield development and on taking another look at it. I understand some of the concerns of Government Members about building in gardens, but we should not allow those concerns to enable the removal of brownfield development.”
“That is absolutely right. No one here wants lawyers involved in making decisions that should properly be made in this Parliament, and that is why we have to get the policy absolutely right and look at the definitions. Indeed, there is a range of definitions in the framework, some of which are untested and we want to be clear about. In the Select Committee the other day, we took evidence on the issue of “significant and demonstrable”. What does it mean?”
“Some of them relate to Hillsborough, and I have indicated that I am quite prepared to have all that information in the public domain. It is incumbent on us all to do our small bit to make sure that the information gets out into the open.”
“So, in the end, it is incumbent on us all to make sure that this information is available, particularly for the families and friends and those who were injured to get the certainty that they have lacked all this long time—certainty, when they have not known whether something is there, hidden away, that has not been brought out into the light of day that might better explain exactly what happened, why it happened and whether it could have been avoided and their loved ones could still be alive today if other action had been taken. I am doing my small part. I have already been approached by the panel. I have papers in the Sheffield archives that I understand are classified as my personal papers, but they relate to my responsibilities as leader of the council.”
“We want to see as much information as possible out there, so that people can really believe that the cover-ups are at an end and they can reach their own decisions about that information. There are real concerns about the coroner’s inquiry and the artificial cut-off point. In my view, that should never have happened. I hope that this might let some light fall on that. I was a member of the police authority as well. I will not go into all the details about the police’s actions. That has been covered already. All that I have to say is that, the previous year, I went round when the same two clubs were to play a semi-final at Hillsborough with a senior police officer and looked at the arrangements. My understanding is that they were somewhat different on the day of the disaster than they had been in the previous year.”
“This was a tragedy, of course, above all else for the people who died, for their families, for the people who were injured, for Liverpool as a football club and for Liverpool as a city, but it was also a tragedy for Sheffield and Sheffield Wednesday as well. We went a few days later outside the ground to see the scarves, the flowers and the messages from football fans all over the country. This was a tragedy for football and football fans, and it could have happened to any club and many grounds up and down the country, but it happened there on that day. Therefore, although the tragedy is with Liverpool, there is also a desire in Sheffield to have all this information come out in the open. We want to see it out in the open.”
“It took an awful, long time for even people sitting there watching the events to realise the horror of what had actually happened. Initially, we were told that 60-odd people had died. Then it became more, of course, as the events unfolded. I remember simply going back to the directors’ box, being kept abreast of events and just simply sitting with the directors and one or two friends who were there and crying. What else could we do? This was in our city, in my football ground: 96 people had died before our eyes. What else could we do? Next morning, I went back to the ground, after the Prime Minister had been there, with representatives of the three councils—Liverpool, Nottingham and Sheffield—and the clubs to look at the scene where things had happened, and people simply stood and cried again.”
“Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton has expressed similar feelings to me in the past about that. I was at the game on that day. I was leader of Sheffield city council. Normally, when I went to matches at Hillsborough, I was on the Kop. That day, I was in the directors’ box, at the invitation of the club to go to a semi-final; I had been to a number over the years. I remember when things started to happen that, initially, there was a feeling that there might be a bit of disturbance in the crowd. We could see people start some movement. People were trying to clamber over the fences. Eventually, it became apparent that something more serious had happened—an accident of some kind. The thought was that people had been crushed and perhaps fainted.”
“First, I apologise to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and to my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram) for being late to the debate. I am sorry that I did not hear his introductory speech. I was chairing a Select Committee meeting, which I could not get out of. I came in for the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Halton (Derek Twigg). I thank him for what he said about the people of Sheffield and how they responded to people who were leaving the ground on that day. We have to remember that it was an era before mobile phones. People were desperate to make contact with families and friends. Houses were opened up; people were welcomed in; phones were used and cups of tea were made. That was felt by the people, and my hon.”
“I know the Secretary of State will be aware that there is widespread political and business support in my city, Sheffield, for HS2. Will he also consider how improving the connecting links to the wider city region could make the business case for HS2 even stronger?”
“May I ask for a debate on the criteria used by the Boundary Commission in its review and the inherent instability built into the system for the future? A city such as Sheffield has wards of 14,000 people, so only a small amount of house building in a new constituency such as mine is likely to mean that in five years’ time, there will be a knock-on effect in Rotherham, Doncaster and Barnsley, because the ward size in Sheffield is such that it will not be possible to carry out further reorganisation there. This complete reorganisation is bad for democratic accountability.”
“One of the most successful policies of the previous Conservative Government was their change to the planning guidance in the mid-’90s to ensure that priority was given to retail development in district or city centres or adjacent to them. Will the Minister now give an assurance that his proposed changes to the planning system will not water that down in any way and lead to an increase in stand-alone retail developments at the expense of our city and town centres?”