Mr Clive Betts
MP for Sheffield South East · Labour · United Kingdom
“I wholeheartedly welcome the Foreign Secretary’s statement, both its content and its tone. I would like to ask about his discussions with our colleagues and allies in other countries who are looking to implement similar sanctions.”
“I offer two congratulations: first, to my right hon. Friend and constituency neighbour, the First Secretary, on her well-deserved promotion—I am sure she will do an excellent job. Secondly, I congratulate her and the Prime Minister for their real commitment to devolution, which I have wanted to see for an awfully long time.”
“I apologise for the fact that—as I have explained to you, Madam Deputy Speaker—I will have to leave straight after my question to chair Westminster Hall. I thank my right hon. Friend for doing this very challenging piece of work. I think that the theme of fairness, for the people who need benefits and for taxpayers, is right.”
“On the other hand, so many constituents with really serious conditions get turned down for PIP, and can get it only if they struggle through the appeal system, sometimes without any help at all. So the system is not fair to anyone at present.”
“When the previous Government let the contract, we were in a situation in which procurement could not properly take account of the past record of companies, and I understand that the Government have now changed that.”
“I will dive very deeply into the question, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Chair of the Committee sends his apologies for his absence; he is presently in a Committee meeting.”
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“I will have to move on to the Front-Bench speeches now. I am sorry to disappoint so many people, although it was pretty inevitable. For the information of new Members, I did not call anyone who had not applied to speak in advance, and I tried to take account of the time that they applied when deciding the order in which I called people. That is the only way we can do it, really. We move on now to the Front-Bench spokespeople, who will have 10 minutes each. If you could leave a little time at the end for the mover of the motion to respond, that would be helpful. I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson, Munira Wilson.”
“The last Government consulted at very great length about bringing accessibility standards for all new homes up to M4(2) level. The Housing, Communities and Local Government Committee recommended that be done immediately, but the response we got was that more consultation was needed. Will the Minister assure us that the issue will now be dealt with as a matter of urgency, so that all new homes are more accessible for people with disabilities? It is a really important issue that seems to have been forgotten about.”
“Will she work closely with local authorities and look particularly at land value capture? Will she ensure that when the planning permission for a site uplifts the value of that site, the total increase in value does not go to the landowners alone, but is used to benefit the public purse and reduce the cost of building those homes?”
“I welcome you to your place, Madam Deputy Speaker. I also welcome both the ambition and the detail in my right hon. Friend’s statement, and the commitments made in it. I have two questions. First, if the targets are not mandatory—although, in the last Parliament, the Levelling Up, Housing and Communities Committee said that they had to be—many councils will simply choose to ignore them, but if they are to be mandatory, will my right hon. Friend assure me that they will be based on a proper needs assessment of each local authority, and will do away with the nonsensical and arbitrary urban uplifts to which she referred in the context of London? Secondly, may I ask a question about social housing? I was proud to be brought up in a council house, as my right hon. Friend was.”
“I welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement. We must deplore the loss of civilian life, particularly of children, on either side of the divide, so I welcome his calls for de-escalation in Lebanon and repeated calls for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza. Looking ahead to long-term peace and to a two-state solution, how does my right hon. Friend deal with the comments of the Israeli Prime Minister, who said the other day that Samaria and Judea are an integral part of Israel and that they are not occupying the west bank? In that situation, have the Government not got to get on with recognising a Palestinian state, rather than waiting for the Israelis to come round to the view that it is acceptable to them?”
“T2. The use of e-bikes and e-scooters has been causing an increasing problem. In Sheffield city centre and pedestrian areas, they are a threat now to public safety, particularly when they are used by Deliveroo and other drivers. Guide Dogs UK is concerned that people who are visually impaired cannot hear these vehicles coming. Will the Minister give clear guidance to the police about what action should be taken to police these vehicles properly?”
“In 2010, we repeatedly heard the words, “The Labour Government did not fix the roof while the sun was shining.” Is it not the case that the last Government not only did not fix the roof, but destroyed the entire foundations of our public services? In the context of difficult decisions, I welcome two points made by my right hon. Friend. First, there was the encouragement to work with local councils to increase the take-up of pension credit. The Levelling Up, Housing and Communities Committee called for that repeatedly in the last Parliament, but it was not taken up. Secondly, can the Chancellor confirm that she intends to provide multi-year settlements, ultimately, for local councils, which—again—have called for that repeatedly? It would be a welcome step to help them with the very difficult financial situation that they are facing.”
“It would be very welcome if that were the case.”
“I welcome my right hon. Friend to her place and thank her for her statement. We all suspected that policy in the Home Office under the previous Government was a bit of a mess, but we did not realise how much of an expensive mess it was until she provided us with the details in her statement. Let me ask the Home Secretary about the attraction for people to come here illegally to work in the black economy. If people have suspicions, they have to go to His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, the Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority, UK Visas and Immigration and the police to get action to deal with those activities. I note that the Home Secretary is looking to try to combine the approach to deal with illegal working in the car washing sector. Will that be a systematic change of approach, and will it be applied to other sectors as well?”
“I welcome my right hon. Friend back to his position on the Front Bench, and I particularly welcome his reference to hydrogen. I know he has been to visit ITM Power in my constituency. When will an announcement be made about the chosen two technologies to pursue with small modular reactors? Will he give an assurance that whichever firms are picked, they will have to ensure that a very high percentage of the SMRs are built in this country by UK firms, such as Sheffield Forgemasters in my constituency? That will create well-paid jobs as well as clean energy.”
“As my hon. Friend is aware, the Levelling Up, Housing and Communities Committee published a report in the last Parliament proposing exactly that. We went to look at the system in Canada, which gets near to 97% or 98% registration accuracy. Some 8 million people could not vote in our election because they were not on the electoral register. We need to address that.”
“Hydrogen should be supported—that is in the proposed legislation—and ITM Power, a major hydrogen company, is in my constituency. I welcome the work being done with Boeing by the University of Sheffield on sustainable aviation fuels. Boeing is now developing research into light-bodied frames for aircraft. Again, that is a contribution to jobs, helping to equalise wages and living standards in my constituency, and to net zero. I hope to see those measures come forward as a matter of urgency.”
“There have been eight councils with section 114 decisions in the last year. Of those, 19 were given permission to borrow capital in order to fund revenue. That is not sustainable in the long term. Yes, there is a recognition there, but can we really carry on with local government finance based on a council tax system that looks at 1991 valuations and, according to the last Secretary of State Michael Gove, is regressive? I am not sure that a Labour Government can sustain that. I hope for proper discussions with local councils about a new system going forward. Finally, on my own constituency and going for growth, I want to see early decisions about small modular reactors. We can build those in Sheffield: Sheffield Forgemasters is in my constituency.”
“It is important that the Government listen to that and have a long-term clear view of what rent policy will be, because that is where most of the income will come from to fund social house building. It is right that the Government revisit the unfair decision about debt in social housing that was put on councils in the 2010 settlement by the coalition Government, because that burden stops councils from going ahead and doing what many of them want to do. There are issues that I hope the Government respond positively to. I must mention local authorities. Given my passion for local government and devolution, I welcome what the Prime Minister said about devolution—not just to mayors but to local councils. I welcome his recognition of the current challenges of financing local councils.”
“That is great, but it will cost money. I hope the Government will listen and work in partnership with the 20 local authorities that have just written to them to ask for a joint agreement on how we build social housing in this country. They are saying, “Look, we are going to have challenges not just about building the homes but about net zero, building safety and decent homes standards. We need the Government’s commitment that the funds will be available to deliver on those homes.” Otherwise, as a Select Committee report said a few months ago, all the money that should be going to build new homes will go on those other priorities, because the first duty of landlords in the social housing sector is to look after their existing homes and tenants.”
“The first 350 have just been given planning permission—credit to Sheffield city council, the mayor of the combined authority Oliver Coppard, and Homes England. First, the development will not create section 106 funding to help with affordable housing. The mayor will have to put in £4 million to build on a brownfield old industrial site. These sites are more expensive to build on—we must understand that. It is right that we build on them as a priority, but they are more expensive. We need that contribution from the mayor, and he has put it in. Secondly, there will be no social housing on this site, as a purely commercial venture. Homes England has been extremely good; it will provide some subsidy so that a significant number of those homes will be social housing, which a housing association will manage.”
“My passion is to get Britain building, but building social housing as well. In trying to achieve that, it is important to draw attention to a particular development in my constituency. It right that we build on brownfield sites as far as we can. The idea that the planning changes that the Government are proposing will somehow mean that central diktat determines where houses are built is not the case. Local plans will still determine where houses are built at local level. The Sheffield local plan gives priority to building around the city centre and in the old industrial areas in my constituency. The first development, called Attercliffe Waterside, will see up to 1,000 new homes built by a private developer Citu.”
“We need to get Britain building again—it is good for the homes that people need and it is good for growth. It is an important part of our growth agenda. It is good that we will make local authorities set targets to be achieved in their local plans—not advisory ones as the previous Government did under the Levelling Up and Regeneration Act 2023—and it is absolutely right that targets have to be met. However, if we are to build 1.5 million homes, we must recognise that the private sector and private developers will not build them. We will not hit that target without a substantial contribution from councils and housing associations—that is right in terms of the numbers. It is right also to address the housing needs of those who cannot afford to buy, and who need a decent home to rent.”
“There have been comments about the famous Sheffield tea room meetings where we come together once a month—that is quite famous. I want to draw particular attention to issues that were raised when I was Chair of the Levelling Up, Housing and Communities Committee in the last Parliament. There are so many issues in the King’s Speech that I would like to mention, but the first is the commitment to build 1.5 million new homes. Housing has been a passion of mine ever since I was chair of the housing committee in Sheffield back in the 1980s. Clearly, we have major problems—all MPs can refer to people without homes in their constituency, or who are living with in-laws, in shared accommodation, or inadequate homes with families living in upper-floor flats.”
“First, I thank my constituents in Sheffield South East for re-electing me for the ninth time. I sort of remember making my maiden speech many years ago along with the challenges that posed and the nervousness, so I pay great credit to all colleagues on both sides of the House who have done that today so ably and so well. I was reminded by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Hallam (Olivia Blake), who spoke earlier, that there are now six Labour MPs in Sheffield. I am also reminded that, of those six Labour MPs, I am the last man standing. That is the change of balance in the House, with five women MPs for the city, and that is absolutely great. We will always continue to work together as colleagues on behalf of our city.”
“It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning, Mr Sharma. I thank the Minister for his positive comments on new clause 8, which are very much in line with what it is trying to achieve. I think the Minister said that the new clause is unnecessary because the essence and intention of it is already contained in other clauses, and the regulator would be expected to operate in providing assistance to clubs in line with the way described in new clause 8. I think I have got that right.”
“The Minister is nodding on that point. On that basis, I will not push the new clause, because the Minister’s explanation, and the evidence we have heard, reassures me that clubs that are coming up from the National League and want that assistance will be helped in precisely the way the new clause would require of the regulator.”
“On the point about playing games abroad, which we will come back to later, it is interesting that although clubs will have to consult their fans, if the competition organiser decides to move games abroad and requires the clubs to do so as part of the competition requirements, there is no requirement for the competition organiser to consult fans. That seems to be a hole in the provisions that we will have to address at some point.”
“Is the Minister saying that, if a competition organiser such as the Premier League, UEFA or FIFA suddenly required clubs to play their games away from home in another country, it would be covered by the regulator’s powers at present to stop that?”
“Is the Minister saying that if there is a requirement by FIFA, UEFA, the Premier League or any other league for clubs to play their home matches away in another country, the clubs would have to consult the fans about that issue and the regulator would take account of that consultation, even if it was a requirement on the club by the competition organiser? Could the regulator overrule the requirement of the competition organiser in line with the fan consultation that a club would have to engage in?”
“On corporate governance, I do not want to name names, but this relates to a club not too far from me. Is the Minister saying that in the future it will not be appropriate to regulate the corporate governance of a club if it merely has an owner who is the chairman, and no board of directors to run the club?”
“The hon. Lady is absolutely right—there are many good owners of clubs in football. I refer immediately to Milan Mandarić, who came into Sheffield Wednesday when we were virtually bust, put the club on a sound financial footing, wrote the debts off, took the club forward and got it promoted, with Paul Aldridge as chief executive. They worked together. Mandarić then sold the club on, because he believed that he could not take it any further at that time. There are other owners who do not necessarily have bad intentions—I think the Bill exists to stop those who have bad intentions—but just make mistakes. This Bill will not make every club successful and it will not make every owner make the right decisions, and we should always remember that. The Bill is to stop people from deliberately doing things that undermine the future of their club.”
“That is a really helpful point. The Bill is about stopping people from doing the wrong things for the wrong reasons, as opposed to stopping people from making mistakes because they are trying to do the right thing but get things wrong. We will never be able to stop that completely.”
“Wednesday just made a mess of theirs and got the timing wrong, so they got a points deduction anyway. New clause 3 is an attempt to say that although we cannot go back and reverse that decision—we cannot force the owners to sell back the grounds to the same organisation that owns the club—we can say that if the club is to be sustainable, the owner has to demonstrate that the ground will be available. A club cannot play without a ground; if it does not have a ground, it is not sustainable. I hope that the Minister will take that point seriously. If he cannot accept the new clause, because there is some—”
“Absolutely. Trying to keep clubs in line with the league’s rules, so that others do not over-compete to match them, is vital. We will come on to parachute payments later, including how they can drive these processes. We cannot go back and undo all the problems of the past. My concern about new clause 3 is about owners who, for whatever reason, have decided to separate the ownership of the club from that of the ground. I know that in future that will require proper consultation and approval from the regulator, but this is being done in some clubs. My own club, Sheffield Wednesday, is one. Derby County has done it, and I think Aston Villa and Charlton have as well—it has happened at quite a few clubs, for various reasons. For Sheffield Wednesday and Derby, it was a way to try to get round the financial restrictions on clubs.”
“The Minister refers to what the Bill will do in regard to future sale, but the new clause does not deal with future sale; it deals with something that has already happened. The Minister says that it does not cover all eventualities, which may be true, but surely there are eventualities that need to be covered. If the Minister does not think that the new clause goes far enough, is he prepared to table another new clause that goes further to ensure a sustainable future for a club with a ground to play on?”
“I accept that new clause 3 is probably imperfect, and I very much look forward to a perfect clause coming back from him in due course.”
“I am speaking in the right place this time. I was pre-emptive in my comments before the break, but that has given the Minister an opportunity to go away and look at the wording that he will come forward with to improve new clause 3. I take the Minister’s point about the complicated circumstances for many clubs with respect to who owns the ground and what form they own it in, and that is understood. I hope that we can find a way of ensuring that, whatever the complications, the owner cannot simply put the club and the ground into different organisations—different legal constructs—but that in all cases there can be an assurance that the club will have use of the ground going forward, because otherwise the club cannot be sustainable by anyone’s definition. I thank the Minister for agreeing to go away to look at the issue.”
“The Minister is almost assuming that the regulatory regime is going to make a perfect world, and that there are not going to be failures. The question being asked is: what happens when there are? When there is an owner who is required to sell, what happens to the club in those circumstances?”
“I beg to move amendment 21, in clause 45, page 37, line 11, leave out from “fans” to “about” in line 12 and insert “players and staff of regulated clubs in England and Wales”.”
“On amendment 22, having “the full impacts of such a decision” taken into account seems a fairly obvious thing. The Minister will no doubt tell us that that is the intention of the Bill and that there is no need to add in the extra words, but I am sure he will agree that the extra words are not in any way in conflict with what the Bill is trying to achieve.”
“As Ben Wright said, there are only two groups of people who really matter in football: “those who play it and those who watch it.” –– [ Official Report, Football Governance Public Bill Committee, 16 May 2024; c. 88, Q145.] Without those two groups, football would not exist. I hope the Minister thinks about the amendment and comes to the conclusion that he could accept it without undermining the Bill in any way. I hope he might give careful consideration to that. I am also happy to support amendment 13, which was tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley East. It is very much along the same lines as my amendment, and the Minister might rather choose her wording if he cannot support the wording that I have put forward. I hope the Minister will reflect carefully on the amendments.”
“Amendment 21 is quite simple, and I am sure that the Minister can accept it without much consideration. It simply applies where a team is prevented from going into a prohibited competition, which I think is absolutely right. The outrage of the European Super League in some ways triggered recognition of the issue and the need to regulate football more appropriately. There are consequences for people who make their living from football, whether they are players or staff members of clubs. Ben Wright from the PFA very appropriately spelt out the fact that the Bill quite rightly, in many cases, highlights the need to consult and involve fans, but players are not mentioned anywhere.”
“I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Amendment proposed : 13, in clause 45, page 37, line 15, at end insert— “(aa) professional football players,”.— (Stephanie Peacock.) This amendment expands the list of those whom the IFR must consult. Question put, That the amendment be made.”
“Why does the Bill give powers to the regulator to stop clubs entering into new competitions but no powers to stop fundamental changes to existing competitions, which fans might find just as unsuitable?”
“I do not know how on earth the regulator will come to a view that is not a view derived from consulting the fans, so I hope that the Minister will give way on this amendment. At the heart of what we are doing here is ensuring that fans are listened to about the issues that are so important to them, and there is nothing more important for fans of a club than where their club plays, so I hope the Minister thinks that this amendment is in the spirit of the Bill and could be accepted.”
“In clause 48, we have a regulator that will have to look at the significant harm done to the heritage of the club by moving ground. How does the regulator decide what is significant harm to the heritage of the club in isolation? The fans are the ones who understand that. They are the custodians of the club; they are the ones who go every week, whose families have gone to the club for years and whose children will go in the future for years. They are the ones who have a real stake in the heritage of the club, yet there is nothing in the wording that says they must be consulted. All amendment 29 states is that in looking at the issue of significant harm to the heritage of the club, we should actually ask the fans what they think about it, so that they do not consider that the arrangements will constitute significant harm.”
“I rise to speak to amendment 29, which I tabled. We will move on to a debate on clause 49 shortly, to which it relates. It is interesting that fans will get a specific consultation, involvement and approval about changing the crests, shirt colours and names, as those are decisions that can be reversed quite easily. We know about the problems at Cardiff with shirt colours and at Hull with the name, but even if those mistakes are made by the owners, they can be changed the following year. A club cannot go back to playing on its old ground if it has been sold and is no longer an asset of the club. In some ways, the issue of where a club plays and its ground is more important for the heritage of the club, and it needs to take account of the interests and wishes of fans.”
“The Minister is therefore saying that a club makes a proposal, consults with the fans and comes to a view, then the regulator must accept the view that the club has come to. Why does the regulator not have a responsibility to ensure that the fans are comfortable with any proposal in the way that amendment 29 suggests? Why is it simply left to a club, which may have a vested interest, to consult with fans and report at second hand to the regulator?”
“Where does it say precisely that the club must consult on that? It must consult about shirt colours, names and crests, so where does it specifically say that about the ground?”
“That is the IFR’s responsibility, but nowhere in the Bill does it say that fans have to be consulted. Neither the IFR nor the club has to consult on the matter, does it?”
“I will reflect on what the Minister said. I will perhaps do so at a future date, but I will not move it at this stage. Clause 48 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 49 Duty not to change crest, home shirt colours or name without approval Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.”
“I beg to move amendment 30, in clause 52, page 42, line 28, at end insert— “(9A) The starting point for calculation of the levy payment under subsection (9) applicable to a particular club shall be a percentage of its annual revenue.””
“This is a fairly simple clarifying amendment. As we have heard, smaller clubs feel that regulation must be proportionate and that there should be more requirements on very wealthy clubs, because they have the staff and resources to deal with that. Smaller clubs may find the whole issue of regulation very challenging, so amendment 30 simply says that the levy they will have to pay should be a percentage of annual revenue; in other words, a proportionate basis for the levy should be written into the Bill. The Minister may say that that will happen anyway—that that it is what the regulator will do—but the issue is a concern for smaller clubs, and the amendment 30 is an attempt to highlight and deal with it.”
“I beg to move amendment 27, in clause 55, page 45, line 1, leave out paragraph (b). This amendment allows the regulator to consider the effect of “parachute” payments when assessing the distribution of revenue between competition organisers.”