Mr Clive Betts
MP for Sheffield South East · Labour · United Kingdom
“I wholeheartedly welcome the Foreign Secretary’s statement, both its content and its tone. I would like to ask about his discussions with our colleagues and allies in other countries who are looking to implement similar sanctions.”
“I offer two congratulations: first, to my right hon. Friend and constituency neighbour, the First Secretary, on her well-deserved promotion—I am sure she will do an excellent job. Secondly, I congratulate her and the Prime Minister for their real commitment to devolution, which I have wanted to see for an awfully long time.”
“I apologise for the fact that—as I have explained to you, Madam Deputy Speaker—I will have to leave straight after my question to chair Westminster Hall. I thank my right hon. Friend for doing this very challenging piece of work. I think that the theme of fairness, for the people who need benefits and for taxpayers, is right.”
“On the other hand, so many constituents with really serious conditions get turned down for PIP, and can get it only if they struggle through the appeal system, sometimes without any help at all. So the system is not fair to anyone at present.”
“When the previous Government let the contract, we were in a situation in which procurement could not properly take account of the past record of companies, and I understand that the Government have now changed that.”
“I will dive very deeply into the question, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Chair of the Committee sends his apologies for his absence; he is presently in a Committee meeting.”
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“I do not think that even the Secretary of State could describe this as a simplification. I am a long-term supporter of the localisation of business rates, but is not the problem that the cut in Government funding to local authorities will mean that by 2013 the totality of that funding will just about equal the business rates, and that if each local authority keeps its own business rate there will be nothing left for redistribution to the authorities with the greatest need, and the least ability to raise money? Is not the fundamental problem the fact that he cannot deliver localisation and fairness in the same agenda?”
“The Minister will be aware that some Labour Members are rather sceptical about whether the new homes bonus will deliver more homes than were being built before the recession. Given that no research is being done into the effectiveness of the scheme, and that there is no evidence about such schemes in other countries, does he agree that it would be appropriate to have an independent review of the scheme’s effectiveness? If so, what period of time should the review cover?”
“Order. I accept that Members have other, pressing engagements, but the hon. Gentleman should be a little careful about coming in halfway through a debate and leaving before the end. It means that he is not really engaging in the debate, but simply coming to make a speech by himself. I am giving him a bit of advice for the future on that point.”
“In the last Parliament, the Communities and Local Government Committee did a report on the previous Government’s Prevent strategy. One criticism that was made to our inquiry, to which the Secretary of State has alluded, is that there was confusion between a strand of the policy that dealt with individuals who were felt to be at risk of becoming involved in terrorism and other policies that were more closely related to social cohesion measures. Is the Home Secretary saying that the first of those issues will be the responsibility of the Home Office and the second the responsibility of the Department for Communities and Local Government? Will there be any links between the two? If there are, how will the policy differ from that of the previous Government?”
“Does the Minister have any practical examples? He has talked about long waiting lists for family houses, but there are actually long waiting lists for pensioners’ accommodation, too. If a couple in their 60s, whose children have left home, were on a flexible tenancy, the local authority could ask them to move. If no pensioner accommodation was available, as bungalows are in very short supply in many areas, that couple could be forced to move into a block of flats where the majority of people were young single people or young couples with a completely different lifestyle. Is that the sort of situation that he envisages? If not, will he say precisely where in the guidelines it states that the regulator will stop a local authority or housing association doing that?”
“I follow the hon. Member for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) in his request for a ballot in all cases, because that would give us the security of a proper consultation. Changing so fundamentally the management of a tenant’s home is almost as important as changing its ownership, and we should give weight to that. If the Minister is not prepared to go that far, but is simply going to look at “ballot in, ballot out”, which at least would be a step forward, and again at the guidance on consultation, will he have a real look at how the guidance might be underpinned statutorily so that, before an ALMO is allowed to be changed and moved back into a local authority, the Secretary of State can insist that real consultation takes place and tenants’ views are listened to? That does not happen at the moment.”
“He was absolutely right to say that it changes the status of the offer that is made to someone at the beginning of a tenancy from offering them a home that will be theirs for as long as they want it, as long as they abide by the tenancy rules, to offering them a temporary residence. With that temporary residence comes the risk of temporary schooling, temporary communities and all the problems that the hon. Gentleman rightly identified, such as lack of community stability and the possibility of simply creating estates of people on benefits who are moved out as soon as they get off benefits and get a job because their tenancy is then brought to an end. That is not the sort of arrangement that I want to see.”
“May I begin by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) on her effective criticism of the Government’s proposals on security of tenure? Her comments were excellent and I thoroughly support them. I also give credit to the hon. Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy), who made some very perceptive comments. The reality is that people will be dragged out of their homes at the end of a flexible tenancy and told, “That is no longer your home.” If people resist, they will be dragged in front of the courts and evicted. That is what is going to happen; there is no getting away from that.”
“I heard the Minister’s comments but I still feel that a ballot is the best way of ensuring that the views of ALMO tenants are really taken into account and that we do not simply have consultations in which the tenants say one thing and the local authority does another, which are already happening. A ballot is the best way forward, but if the Minister is saying that the same process that was used to set up an ALMO should be used to dismantle it, he must firm up the guidance and make it a statutory obligation for local authorities to comply with that. I see him nodding, and that is very good.”
“If a house becomes available in my constituency, where some areas have very limited social housing, it is by no means apparent to me that someone who has just become homeless should get that property as opposed to someone who has been in the private rented sector waiting on a housing list for six years. However, if an offer is made, it has to be made with the standards of the private rented property being approved by the local authority, with the landlord or their agent being part of an accredited scheme—probably with regular inspections to make sure that the property is kept to a reasonable standard—and with a minimum tenancy length. I would certainly want those conditions to be included. Finally, let me address new clause 3, which is in my name.”
“The reality is that, currently, as long as people abide by the rules, they cannot be evicted from council or housing association properties—they cannot have their tenancy ended by their landlord—but under the Bill that will be possible, and if Liberal Democrats vote for the provisions, they will be allowing that to happen. Let me say one thing about the homelessness provisions. It might surprise some to hear that I am not, in principle, against local authorities being able to discharge their homelessness responsibilities by making an offer in the private rented sector, but I do want to see clear safeguards.”
“My hon. Friend makes a very good point. These measures are changing the status of council tenants, downgrading them almost to second-class citizens. That is what this effectively means, and it is creating a form of welfare housing. There will be people who are so desperate for security that they will over-extend themselves in trying to become owner-occupiers, which could lead to real problems. I say to the Liberal Democrats that they should not hide behind the idea that the measures are all right because existing tenants will not be affected or because local authorities will have to choose whether to go for these forms of tenancies.”
“They do not refer to the new proposals on self-finance or the Government’s reforms. All those facts are being kept from tenants in unbalanced, one-sided consultations. I hear what the Minister says. I shall not press the new clause, and I look forward to further discussions with him and his colleagues about the best way of constructing the measure to get the best deal for ALMO tenants and to ensure that in the end they make the decisions which affect their homes.”
“The Housing Minister has said that he is prepared to have a meeting with me and other officers of the parliamentary all-party group on arms length management organisations. The information we have got from the National Federation of ALMOs, with which we recently had a very good meeting, shows that, in a number of cases, local authorities have simply been flouting the correct processes. Councils are saying, “We are going to get rid of your ALMO; it doesn’t matter what you say—it’s going.” They are then putting factually inaccurate reports to housing committees. They are not offering people a real choice in the consultation, they are not explaining the facts, and they are not presenting balanced arguments. They talk about saving money on the general fund as one reason for getting rid of ALMOs.”
“While my hon. Friend is running through a list of authorities, will she also refer to Sheffield—now a Labour-controlled authority, of course? There has been cross-party agreement between Labour and Liberal Democrats, and all are opposed to any mayoral system at all, and certainly opposed to shadow mayors. I am sure that were there any Conservative councillors in Sheffield—which there are not—they would be joining in the opposition as well. Is it not a strange system in which a mayor’s legitimacy comes from being elected by the public, but a shadow mayor’s legitimacy comes from being the representative of most councillors on a council? In Sheffield, that majority of councillors are opposed to the proposals.”
“On the abolition of everything that is regional, which is clearly Government policy and has been for some time, the Minister has just indicated that the duty to co-operate was the central plank that would replace on some sort of strategic basis the regional dimension. With hindsight, does he think the Government gave enough attention and thought to how the duty to co-operate should be formulated and how it should work in practice? There seems to have been an awful lot of criticism from everybody with an interest in these matters about the Government’s position in the Bill.”
“I want to get down to practicalities. Given that these matters are now material considerations, is it not the case that when an application comes before a local planning authority, the officer of that authority will have a responsibility to explain in their recommendations precisely what financial considerations there are and how much will be gained by the authority and the community from granting the application? That is completely different from any present requirement on any planning officer to explain any financial matters before the planning committee makes a decision on an application.”
“The Government’s stated objective is to ensure that more new homes are built than were being built before the recession. I am sure that it is an objective with which we can all agree. However, if the new homes bonus does not incentivise individual authorities sufficiently so that the sum total of all the individual parts does not meet the Government’s objective, what is plan B?”
“T2. On enterprise zones, do the Government agree that it is important that subsidies are not simply given to jobs and development that would have happened anyway? It is fairly easy to see how the Government could stop, and take measures to prevent, a firm from simply transferring to an enterprise zone with public money, but if a firm decides to expand into an enterprise zone, or if a new firm is created in one, how can the Government ensure that money is not simply given to a development and jobs that would have existed without the subsidy?”
“I ask the Secretary of State to look at paragraph 2.12 of “The Plan for Growth”, which states that where an authority does not have a development plan or where such a plan is not up to date, there will be a presumption that an application “will be accepted”. That sentence does not mention sustainability, but just that such applications will be accepted. Does that mean that where there is an up-to-date plan, a developer will have less chance of getting an application through than in an authority without a current local development framework that is still operating on a unitary development plan? In other words, will there be a two-tier and differential planning system in this country, which we have never had before?”
“Sheffield council is facing up to exactly the same problems as other northern cities are facing. Unfortunately, it is choosing to delay its cuts until after the local elections, when either that deferral of the cuts will help win the election, as it hopes, or more likely the problem will be passed on to a new, Labour council. It is hiding the reality of the cuts from the people of Sheffield. In reality, Sheffield council is facing the same funding reductions as councils in similar cities, and will therefore face the same cuts to front-line services and the same loss of jobs, not merely in the public sector but in the private and voluntary sectors. The Budget will do absolutely nothing to address the situation.”
“As it has a high level of outsourcing, many hundred more jobs in the private, third and voluntary sectors will also be cut. Voluntary sector organisations such as the south-east Sheffield citizens advice bureau are facing 15% cuts to their budgets this year, nearly twice the level of the cut in the council’s funding. That is completely contrary to what the coalition Government said should happen. There are unspecified cuts in the council’s budget, such as £1.3 million for library services. The council is not saying which libraries will close, which books will not be bought or which libraries will have their hours reduced. It is achieving its proposals only by reducing balances to what the chief executive has said is a low level at a time of considerable risk.”
“They will also be concerned that the Government have done nothing in the Budget to cushion people from the attack on front-line services caused by the cuts to local government spending. Local government is taking a much bigger hit than Government Departments, and cities in the north, such as Sheffield, are being hit harder than places in the south, such as Dorset. The front-loading of the cuts is having a real impact. The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government has said before, “It’s all right, because cities like Sheffield are managing better”. That is not true, despite the fact that the Deputy Prime Minister has said that it is all okay because Sheffield city council is cutting only 200 jobs. Its own website shows that 731 jobs are to go.”
“We can argue about the abolition of the regional spatial strategies, but it leaves a vacuum behind and there is no evidence at all that the new homes bonus will generate housing development. If it does not, we could be left with a spike in house prices in four or five years’ time, which again will price young people out of buying their first home and force more people back on to the social housing waiting list. That is a real concern, and I do not think the Government are beginning to address it. When people in my constituency look at the Budget, they will be concerned that it does nothing to address the fact that their real wages are falling or that their benefits and pensions are not going up as fast as inflation.”
“We hear that from people in our surgeries such as young couples who cannot buy their first home, people who need social housing and are on the waiting list and people in overcrowded accommodation. What the Government have done in the Budget has to be considered alongside a 50% cut in money for new social homes in the next four years, and alongside the catastrophic fall in the number of planning applications for new homes that are being approved. There is concern that as individuals’ economic circumstances improve in three or four years, as they probably will, when they feel more confident about buying a new home and mortgage availability improves, the houses will not be there to buy because they will have been stopped in the planning system.”
“There is concern, which the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government referred to, about jobs simply being transferred to enterprise zones from other areas. He said that that would be controlled, but it is difficult to see how. It is even more difficult to see how we can control the problem of development that would have been undertaken elsewhere going to an enterprise zone instead, at a cost to public funds. There is a real housing problem in this country. We can welcome the Firstbuy housing programme that the Government have introduced, although it looks very much like HomeBuy Direct, which they have just abolished, by another name. The real concern is the chronic shortage of housing in this country.”
“If they are concerned that on the site next door to them, tin sheds could go up unrestricted, they will be less likely to put their money into good quality development. The Royal Town Planning Institute has cautioned against a return to tin-shack Britain. Thirdly, not only might more houses be built on greenfield sites; if restrictions are not properly applied to applications, out-of-town superstores might rear their heads again, which would go against the policy of the previous Conservative Government of a “town and district centre first” policy for retail development. Finally, we have had enterprise zones before, and last time each job cost an average of £26,000 of public money.”
“This could be a Budget for growth—reduced growth. A few weeks ago, the Chancellor blamed the snow. Now we have the old chestnut, “When in doubt, blame the planners.” There is the idea that everything that is wrong with this country is down to our planning system. I accept that some proposals in “The Plan for Growth” may be helpful. Speeding up the consideration of planning applications is generally beneficial. However, I have four areas of doubt in which I want to urge caution. First, developers want certainty. Consistently tinkering with the planning system leads to uncertainty and is likely to discourage development. Secondly, good developers want good quality development.”
“Does the Secretary of State accept that in the last assessment, the business case for the electrification of the midland main line was just as strong as that for the Great Western line? As he is not prepared at this stage to commit to the electrification of the line in one go, will he re-examine the possibility of introducing the new bi-modal trains on the line? On that basis there could be incremental electrification without the up-front costs coming all at once.”
“As the Member who secured the first debate, on women in business, is not present, I am afraid that I have no alternative but to suspend the sitting until 11 am. Sitting suspended.”
“Let me bring the Secretary of State to the question of the midland main line—the forgotten line in this country—and ask him about the ageing high-speed trains, as my hon. Friend the Member for Luton South (Gavin Shuker) has just done. Those trains were second-hand when they were introduced on the line. Can he give a commitment that we will actually see bi-mode trains introduced on the midland main line? We have the immediate advantage of being able to use the electric line up to Bedford, allowing electrification of the rest of the line progressively and incrementally in the future.”
“I welcome the commitment made by the Minister of State, the right hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark)—who is responsible for decentralisation—to look favourably on any further proposals for community budgets from local authorities, but does the Secretary of State not agree that Departments have an obligation to become more involved and proactive in this regard? Does he understand my disappointment that at a recent meeting of the Select Committee, Ministers from the Department for Work and Pensions, the Home Office and the Department of Health could not between them cite a single proposal for further decentralisation measures? Is it not time that the Government as a whole got their act together?”
“I am sure that the Secretary of State is aware that many older privately rented properties do not have cavity walls. Therefore they can benefit from loft insulation, not cavity-wall insulation, and external or internal cladding is often problematic. In those cases, will he consider giving extra priority under the green deal to offering assistance with double glazing?”
“The Secretary of State said that this is a matter for local decision, and that there is no need for any council to make cuts to front-line services. Can he name one single council in the country that has so far managed to reach a budget decision without any cuts to front-line services?”
“In the last Parliament the Communities and Local Government Committee conducted a report on Supporting People. It accepted the removal of the ring fence, but said that spending on Supporting People should be monitored. Perhaps as a result of that, the day after the Secretary of State appeared before the Select Committee in December, Westminster city council announced a £1 million cut in its Supporting People services.”
“The Secretary of State has obviously listened to many representations in the past few weeks, but the question is whether he has actually heard what people have been saying and whether he is prepared to act. Today, we have found out that, presumably after prostrating himself on the floor before the Chancellor, he has come away with a further £10 million.”
“Local authorities are going to get a further £10 million on top of the settlement they were previously promised. Even if that £10 million was given to one authority, such as Salford, instead of its reduction in total spend being cut from 8.9% to 8.8%, there would hardly be dancing in the streets. Authorities such as mine in Sheffield are getting nothing extra out of that small amount of additional money: they will still get a cut of more than 8%.”
“Some of them concern quality of life—for example, libraries, parks, playing fields and sports centres—and others are essential, such as refuse collection, street repairs and street lighting. Most local authorities are doing all they can to protect their social services provision and to protect looked-after children and children with particular disadvantages, so it should come as no surprise that even when they have looked at back-room services and sharing services with other authorities, councils throughout the country of all political persuasions are cutting services such as libraries and bus services and changing their methods of refuse collection.”
“The Secretary of State’s words are very apposite—it is not a lot of money, but there are an awful lot of reductions up and down the country that local government is having to deal with. My first point, which I made in a Westminster Hall debate but still have not received an adequate response to is that the overall cuts in Government expenditure over the four-year period are 19%, whereas the cuts for local government are 26%. Why is local government experiencing higher cuts than the overall average cuts to Government spending? We know that the services delivered by local government are important to our constituents. Some of those services go to those in most need—social services provision for aids and adaptations and for looked-after children.”
“There were ear-marked allocations, including some transferred money from NHS funding, but even so local authorities are facing severe reductions. Westminster, a flagship Conservative authority, is cutting £1 million from its Supporting People budget. Hammersmith and Fulham was named for cutting eight community centres, I understand. Gloucester and Somerset councils are cutting libraries and closing them. Those are cuts in front-line services. Even authorities that are sharing services and cutting management costs still have to cut front-line services. Why has local government been singled out for bigger cuts than the rest of central Government combined?”
“All I can say is that the hon. Gentleman’s authority must have had a much more favourable settlement than many others that are making those cuts. That is not happening on a party political basis. Conservative and Lib Dem authorities are making cuts as well. I am more than happy to receive a list from the Secretary of State of all the authorities that are managing the process without any cuts in front-line services. It will not include many Conservative and Lib Dem authorities, which are presumably making cuts not to spite the Government, but because of the position that they have been put in by the Government.”
“I am sorry, but I must make progress. Other Members want to speak in the debate. My next point is one made by the Local Government Association on a cross-party basis. Why are the cuts front-end loaded? Will someone explain? Even if the Government feel that they have to make the cuts over the four-year period, why are they front-end loaded?”
“The leader of the council sat across the table and said to me, “The thing that is really affecting us and may stop us delivering on projects like community budgeting and the big society is the front-end loading of the cuts, which is making it impossible for us to deal with them in a planned and organised way.” That is a Conservative authority, and the Local Government Association is saying exactly the same. The front-end loading is forcing the cuts up front, which makes it harder to reorganise and to provide services in a different way. It means more money being spent on compulsory redundancies. It is a major problem, and nobody will explain why the cuts must be front-end loaded. Why?”
“That is not the intervention that I was expecting. I thought that as those on the Front Bench could not help me, the Back Benchers would. Why are the cuts front-end loaded? Why do nearly half the cuts come in the first year? I was in Croydon council on a Select Committee visit on Tuesday. Croydon council is a flagship Tory authority. It has participated in Total Place, it has community budgeting, it is part of the big society project and it is enthusiastic about it.”
“—over which authorities do not have discretion. The figures include the housing revenue account and working capital that is needed to manage the cash flow of an authority, and they probably include identified sums in the authority’s capital accounts for major projects. All those things tend to get lumped together. The Secretary of State says that is not true. If he produced a list of figures for each local authority that extracts all those sums, that would be very interesting to see. I look forward to a copy of that being placed in the Library.”
“The Secretary of State has had an exchange of letters with the Conservative chair of the Local Government Association, who has complained bitterly that if more than £200 million is required nationally in capitalisation to pay for redundancy costs, that will result in a further cut in the grant to pay for it. I will move on to the spread of the cuts. It is undoubtedly true that local authorities in the most deprived areas are getting the biggest cuts. Government Members will say that those authorities have the biggest grants, which by and large is true, but that is because they have the biggest needs and the most deprivation. The reality is that my local authority is getting more than an 8% reduction in its spending powers and Dorset county council is getting an increase. That is simply not fair.”
“I have already given way to the hon. Gentleman and think that that is reasonably fair. The spread of the cuts is simply not fair. I accept that the Government have provided an element of transitional grant to help those authorities with most deprivation, but they simply have not gone far enough to protect those with the most needs and the most deprivation. That is why those areas now face the biggest cuts in services.”
“It has received legal advice on the matter from Bevan Brittan solicitors, which states that in this instance the Secretary of State has not set the distributable amount as a sum equal to the difference, but has chosen to budget for a surplus and set the distributable amount some £100 million lower at £19,000 million. That is simply unlawful, and that is the legal opinion the LGA has received— [ Interruption. ] I am raising the issue with the Secretary of State and giving the advice that the LGA has given me. If it is inaccurate, will he publish a precise assessment on whether he intends to budget for a surplus on the business rates and whether he believes to do so is lawful so that Members have the full and proper picture?”
“Manchester city council has to make its own local decisions, and I am not here to support or defend every action of every local authority. I thought that leaving such matters to local councils was what localism was all about. We must not put them in the position where they have to make cuts in front-line services, as Somerset, Gloucester and other authorities are having to do. I support what the Government are doing on ring-fencing. I believe, as I have been saying for many years, that abolishing ring-fencing as far as possible is the right thing to do so that local authorities have more discretion in how they spend the money available to them. On the question of business rates, I followed up with the LGA the issues I raised with the Minister for Housing and Local Government in my Westminster Hall debate.”
“I understand that revenues from business rates go up and down, so when they go up more should be distributed to local authorities as a result. [ Interruption. ] Rather than engaging in further debate on this, I am happy to pass on to the Secretary of State the legal advice that the LGA has given me and ask him, if he believes that it is wrong, to issue a detailed correction. That seems an appropriate way to proceed.”