Daniel Zeichner
MP for Cambridge · Labour · United Kingdom
“I recall, as a shadow Minister, visiting a major institution in the country and sending the management into panic when I asked them where the bus stop was to get back to the station.”
“My hon. Friend is absolutely right about the location of bus stops. I am so frustrated when I have taken the train to Cambridge, arrive at the station, see the bus, but have to walk 200 yards around the platform, come out of the station and walk 200 yards back to the bus stop, to find the bus has gone.”
“Devolution and local government reorganisation are different things. To be honest, they should probably be considered separately, but they have become so interlinked and intertwined in this debate that it is impossible to do so. If we are to have a stronger devolution settlement, it is right to spend more time getting it right.”
“I commend the Secretary of State and his team for their determination and resolve in the transfer to renewables. In the extraordinary and unprecedented weather that we are having at the moment I can assure the House that some shade would be really welcome in parts of the east of England.”
“I commend all the hard work that has gone into both the road map and the profitability review by the civil servants, the ministerial team and so many people across the sector, including Baroness Batters.”
“On that point about speculative building, I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman is probably not a fan of big, bold projects of this kind, but does he agree that there is a very good example just down the road in Cambridge?”
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“I would not have thought that that was necessarily the traditional Conservative approach to public money, but maybe times have changed. Again, in our debate in February, the Minister referred to people who might “take the mickey”. Given how much the enforcement capability of his Department has already been cut, and that further cuts must now be delivered after the autumn statement, how exactly does he plan to find and deal with any delinked-payment “mickey-takers”?”
“I must say that do not think that the Minister’s explanation is mirrored in the explanatory memorandum, because that itself makes this rather extraordinary admission, in paragraph 7.4: “There will be no requirement for the recipient to continue to have land.” I wonder whether the Minister can marry that up with the answer that he gave to the hon. Member earlier. How does the Minister plan to explain to the people of this country, who have seen their tax burdens rise by £4,300 per household under the Conservatives, that he will be paying out £700 million next year with no requirement that the recipients do anything at all— not even complete an application form, according to paragraph 7.15 of the explanatory memorandum? That is a very efficient system for handing out money to people for apparently doing nothing.”
“When we debated this in February, the Minister told me that “we have not seen that impact on land values, but what is more interesting is the impact that that might have on rental values going forward, and we will have to monitor that to see what impact some of these changes will have on the rented sector especially.”—[ Official Report, Fifth Delegated Legislation Committee, 28 February 2023; c. 9.] So, nine months on, what has that monitoring shown? Frankly, after our experience of the Government’s cavalier approach to public money during covid, with some £4.3 billion written off, taxpayers might find it a little odd that the plan set out in this instrument is that farmers will get paid for the next few years whether they farm or not. That picks up on the interesting observation made by the hon. Member for Amber Valley.”
“We are used to seeing the Institute for Fiscal Studies produce a detailed distributional analysis setting out the impact of Budget measures on people at various points in the income distribution. Will the Minister consider commissioning the IFS to produce a similar analysis of the success—or otherwise—of his new method of allocating funding, according to how well it supports farmers most in need of the cash, or whether, as one might suspect, the lion’s share has gone to those who are already very well-heeled? The Government have also claimed that reducing basic payments would have an impact on tenants and land values.”
“10.] So, if not all of the £1 billion already saved has yet been paid out, where does that cash now sit, and what are his plans to get it out of door in the remaining few months before the election? What is the Department doing to record what has been saved, what has been paid out, and what has been delivered for that money? As I have asked before, will he explain how any underspend will be dealt with and for how many years it will be rolled forward? I am advised that underspends in the European Union schemes could be carried forward for up to three years. Has the Department agreed with the Treasury that that arrangement will be mirrored? The Government are fond of claiming that payments under the common agricultural policy went mainly to better-off farmers.”
“and learned Member for Banbury (Victoria Prentis) told us in 2021: “All funding released from the reductions will be reinvested in new schemes in this Parliament.”—[ Official Report, Fifth Delegated Legislation Committee, 18 March 2021; c. 3.] And, in March 2022, she said: “All moneys that are saved by those reductions will be invested in farming and farming businesses.”—[ Official Report, Third Delegated Legislation Committee, 15 March 2022; c. 11.] The Minister himself told me, only in February this year, that he was, “more than happy to” reassure me “that we will deliver that cash”, and that as “we move into these new schemes, we will transfer all that cash from one pot into the other.”—[ Official Report, Fifth Delegated Legislation Committee, 28 February 2023; c.”
“The taxpayer is entitled to ask what public value will be got from all that cash. Equally, what has happened to the money that has already been deducted from farm payments during the transition period? According to the figures in annex D of the Government’s original 2020 transition plan, in total, from 2020 to 2023, around £1.3 billion to £1.4 billion should have already been saved by the end of this year, with another £1 billion to come next year. Can the Minister confirm how much of that has actually been paid out to farmers to date under the new environmental land management scheme? The Minister’s predecessor, the right hon.”
“We have also repeatedly and consistently argued throughout that those public goods should include support for sustainable food production, and that a baseline of farming regulation is critical to ensuring that the environmental gains are genuine. Furthermore, the system should not end up with farmers who do not wish to take part enjoying an unfair advantage at the expense of our wildlife and landscapes. Those remain our key tests for the Government’s plans, and I am not particularly convinced that this set of regulations does enough to meet them. Large sums of public money are at stake. Even with the reductions that have already taken effect, the National Farmers Union has estimated the amount to be paid out in 2024 alone will still amount to around £700 million.”
“I have discussed many very similar statutory instruments over the past three years or so, and debated the Agriculture Act 2020 and indeed the Direct Payments to Farmers (Legislative Continuity) Act 2020 with the Minister’s predecessors. I am sure that the Minister will be delighted to know that I have at hand both his and his predecessors’ speeches, from which I can quote. This instrument marks another step in the Government’s long-drawn-out post-Brexit reforms to the farm-support system over the past five years and counting. One is tempted to ask, “Are we nearly there yet?” It is worth repeating that we on the Opposition Benches agree that farm support should be changed to a system that uses taxpayers’ money to incentivise public goods in the form of environmental benefits.”
“It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Sir Robert. This is a weighty instrument. In fact, it is probably three instruments. It is a shame that the three issues cannot be considered separately, because, while we support the intention of moving away from basic payments and support an environmentally friendly sustainable food system, frankly, we are deeply unimpressed by the way that the Government are doing it, and we have significant concerns about the potential environmental risk caused by the removal of cross-compliance. However, we must decide on the instrument as a whole, so we will not be opposing it today, but that should not be read as approval for the Government’s failures. These draft regulations are familiar grounds.”
“The Secretary of State confirmed only the other day at the Country Land and Business Association conference that only 800 sustainable farming incentive schemes are currently being paid out—that is compared to 80,000 basic payment agreements. There is a gap, and I wonder if the Minister would agree to write to me to explain where in the accounts that money is located.”
“In conclusion, much in the regulations is to be welcomed, but if we dig into the detail, support for some of the measures was not as strong as the explanatory memorandum suggests. It would be sensible to pick up some of the points when the other instruments are brought forward, so that the new regime can be considered as a coherent whole.”
“I am sure that many of those present today study wine labels closely, and many of our constituents who buy wine will be used to seeing specific information showing the origin; the grape varieties used; by whom, how and where the wine is produced; and other important details, such as the percentage alcohol content and units, whether the wine is fair trade or organic, and whether it contains sulphites or egg white. They may feel wary of that sort of information being presented in a different and perhaps more generic or less informative way. Will the Minister clarify exactly what the changes in the regulations will mean in practice for the information on wine bottle labels? How does the Department plan to inform consumers, so that their confidence can be maintained?”
“We are grateful to the House of Lords Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee for its useful report on this instrument, which makes for sobering reading and is worded quite strongly. In addition to the questions I have asked, it expresses concerns about the potential negative impact on consumer confidence if labelling ends up providing less information for consumers or is just less clear. It states: “it will be important that all products are labelled clearly so that consumers can make an informed choice of what they are buying.” The issue was raised in the other place, but the response of the Minister’s colleague there was a little vague.”
“I also understand that the Department has yet to reach an agreed way forward to ensure alignment across the GB internal market. Of course, this is not the only such issue, as it has also failed to agree a UK deposit return scheme, which could accept wine and other glass bottles. Will the Minister therefore provide more clarity around what exactly the other two instruments will do? How will they impact on the labelling requirements? What further changes is the Department planning for 2024-25? What is getting in the way of it reaching the agreements needed with the devolved Governments on this and other important matters? Perhaps the Opposition could help. How exactly does the Minister plan to reach a consistent regulatory approach across the GB internal market?”
“I also appreciate that efforts are being made in this legislation to provide consumers with clearer information and to reduce unnecessary packaging—for instance, by removing the foil and mushroom cork requirements for sparkling wines—and we have heard that the Minister intends to bring in another two instruments to make further changes and to consolidate legislation. I understand that today’s instrument needs to be in place before 1 January—just a few weeks away—which rather answers the question raised in the other place: why not do all three together? To put it kindly, DEFRA is clearly a just-in-time Department; putting it less kindly, this is all rather last-minute. Perhaps the Minister can explain why this could not all have been done a bit earlier, and therefore in a more rational way.”
“I noticed that it is quoted in the impact assessment as saying that the UK wine market was worth over £10 billion in 2022—I think the Minister said £11 billion, but what is 1 billion between friends. However, it is certainly a very large amount of money in off-trade and on-trade sales, with large volumes of wine imported, bottled and re-exported across the world. As we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Easington, we are the world’s 12th largest exporter by value. Wine is a very important part of our highly successful food and drink sector. As has been said, the vast majority of wine consumed here—99%—is imported. We recognise and accept the need for the rules inherited from the European Union to be updated and streamlined to help the sector operate even more efficiently.”
“It is a pleasure, as ever, to serve with you in the Chair, Mr Stringer, and to hear the Minister’s introduction. I start by reassuring him and the Whips that we recognise the constructive approach the Department has taken with the industry on this instrument and that, given the support the industry has expressed, we will not oppose it. That said, there are of course some issues, which were aired in last week’s debate in the other place and on which more clarity would be helpful. As we have heard, the wine sector makes an important contribution to this country’s economy, and I thank the Wine and Spirit Trade Association for its help in preparing for this debate.”
“May I press the Minister slightly? In a few weeks’ time, will we not end up with produce being regulated differently in different parts of Great Britain?”
“In recent weeks, I, like many colleagues, have visited shops in my constituency as part of USDAW’s—the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers—Freedom from Fear campaign. I have heard from staff about the daily levels of verbal and sometimes physical abuse they face, and the huge losses from theft. Will the Minister say more about what the Government are doing to stem that tide of lawlessness, particularly for independent retailers who may not be part of the Pegasus Project? Will she also say how much is being lost to theft, because that costs all of us as customers, as well as costing retailers?”
“We will work closely with the farming sector, the crop protection sector, and the wider food production sector to find alternatives that provide sustainable, secure supplies of food but also work for nature. That is a prize worth seeking.”
“Bans on chemicals are generally preceded by a listing on the “substances of very high concern” list. The last additions to the UK’s list were made more than three years ago, in June 2020. Since then, the European Chemicals Agency has added 26 substances to its equivalent list. It seems that the UK is falling behind. That is disappointing because the UK played a key role in setting up the EU’s gold standard chemicals regime, yet now we are lagging behind the EU in tracking and regulating harmful substances. Why has the UK failed to add any chemicals to the list of substances of concern, when our EU neighbours have added 26? The regulations are a temporary fix—they could be deemed a sticking plaster. We need to develop new ways of protecting crops without harming the environment.”
“I ask the Minister for an assurance that the permissions are indeed temporary and to outline the measures that the Government are taking to facilitate and accelerate the development of alternative systems for crop protection. Let me finish by reminding the Minister that there are concerns about some pesticides, still in use in the UK, that some believe threaten insect and animal life as well as human health, including through carcinogens and/or neurotoxins. With new research, and growing concern about these issues, a number of pesticides have been added to the EU’s list of “substances of very high concern”. That is because they have been found to be carcinogenic or to affect the reproductive system, as well as being persistent in the environment and bioaccumulative.”
“However, an explanation would be helpful—not least because I am told by those in the industry that most parallel importers have moved to product authorisation in the transition period. Again, will the Minister say more? Regardless, in our view these extensions should be temporary. We strongly urge growers to use this time efficiently and productively to seek alternative solutions to crop protection and we urge manufacturers to develop and submit applications for new alternative products that minimise environmental harm. We are committed to working with farmers and scientists to find alternatives and will follow the scientific advice on the licensing, regulation and impact of pesticides.”
“Although we support the extension, it is not clear to me or others I have consulted how the period of three and a half years was arrived at for the provisions that allow the import, sale and use of seeds treated with a plant protection product authorised in at least one European Union or European economic area member state prior to the implementation period completion date. I am advised that the standard registration period is 18 months; I think the Minister said in his opening statement that the period had been carefully considered. Will he say a little more about how that three and a half years has been arrived at? Similarly, we do not object to the reinstatement of trade permits for importing plant protection products that are authorised in the UK for up to two years, so we will not be opposing the instrument.”
“As we have heard, maize, which is used extensively for cattle feed and energy generation, would be particularly affected as 99% of all maize seeds are treated with at least one of three plant protection products that do not currently have GB authorisation for use as seed treatments. We read in paragraph 7.2 of the explanatory memorandum that “Since EU Exit no new seed treatments for maize have been authorised in GB.” The curious reader might wonder why. The issue begs a bigger post-Brexit question, of course. The fact that there are no UK authorisations points to the highly integrated nature of crop systems across Europe. Maize seed is not produced in the UK, and we therefore have to rely on at least one of our European neighbours—hopefully, given today, not Greece.”
“So I absolutely understand concerns about any prospects of further crop loss due to disease and insect infestation and anxiety about the availability of effective tools to prevent such problems and their financial consequences. We recognise that the farming and amenity sectors need to plan ahead and adjust to any changes in the pesticides, and seeds treated with pesticides, that they are permitted to use. Indeed, they would probably also welcome news from the Minister today about the long awaited pesticide national action plan. Can the Minister enlighten us about when that is expected? On the instrument before us today, we appreciate that farmers and growers need access to these products in time for the 2024 growing season and that without these temporary extended permissions, there could be adverse impact on both crop yield and output.”
“It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Sir Gary, and I thank the Minister for his introduction. We are all aware that farmers and growers have been grappling with some formidable challenges over the last few years given the sky-rocketing costs of fertiliser, animal feed and energy; tight profit margins; a rocky transition from the common agricultural policy to environmental land management schemes; and a trade and regulatory regime that has thrown up yet more barriers and red tape. Many farmers have had to endure the distress of witnessing damage to crops or livestock due to the devastating recent floods, and too many have suffered from persistent workforce shortages.”
“10. What recent assessment he has made with Cabinet colleagues of the potential impact of the border target operating model on cross-border flows of goods.”
“It has been a very long wait to get border checks in place on the UK side. What evidence does the Minister have that EU businesses have the appropriate systems in place, including enough vets, to make them work smoothly? What estimate has he made of the impact on UK food security?”
“Q11. A few weeks ago, the world cringed at the Prime Minister’s fawning welcome for Elon Musk. This week, advertisers are fleeing Musk’s platform after his latest vile outburst. What exactly did the Prime Minister think he might learn from an unelected, super-rich individual who had taken over a once successful organisation and plunged it into a death spiral?”
“Successive Conservative Ministers have allowed the criminal justice system to fall into its current parlous state, making many communities, including in Cambridge, less safe. Now they propose to shift the burden from an over-pressed prison service to an over-pressed probation service. Can the Secretary of State guarantee that the money that should have been available to prisons will be moved to the probation service to allow it to keep our communities safe?”
“Local newspapers are under threat. When the community news project was introduced in 2018 for newspapers such as the Cambridge News, it was widely welcomed. The project was supported by tech giant Meta, but it has now withdrawn funding. Will the Minister join me and others in calling for it to rethink its decision?”
“To maintain that healthy, sustainable food system, farmers need a level playing field, so when the right hon. Member for North East Somerset (Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg) made his recent comments about the benefits of importing hormone-injected beef, it sent a shudder through the industry. This time last year, he was at the very top of Government, alongside the Secretary of State. Given the Minister’s long experience in Government, can he tell us how many others at the top of his Government privately harbour that view?”
“Cambridgeshire schools are some of the lowest funded in England, and they will now receive £4.4 million less than they expected. The Minister will know that local authority officials and schools will now have to spend time recalculating their budgets. What will he do to compensate them for the time they are spending on that?”
“He also talked about postgrad and international students, who are reliant on scholarships and often depend on extortionate visas, and the visa criteria for international students being harsh, with some having to prove progression to maintain their visa. There is a range of complicated issues here, but clearly something needs to be done to improve the situation. I also echo the points about further education students. I was told this morning that some are paying £2,000 a year in rail fares just to come to and from Ely for their education. I will conclude by observing that there is quite a furore in the papers about the triple lock. Is it not extraordinary that there is not a furore about this generation, which is actually suffering here and now? Would it not be wonderful to see that on the front pages of the newspapers tomorrow?”
“Disparity across the collegiate University means that students’ experiences of both applying for and receiving necessary funding differ vastly.” There are many different experiences, but the fact that one of the Cambridge colleges has had to set up a food hub speaks volumes about the situation in which we find ourselves. I am grateful to Harvey Brown, the CUSU welfare and community officer, for pointing out the pressure on postgraduate students in particular. He said that some had been in touch to say that there is simply nowhere they can afford to live in Cambridge, with some suggesting that living in a tent was the only means of staying in the city to finish their studies.”
“I am sure he is embarrassed about it. He ought to be embarrassed about it on behalf of the Government, and they need to do something about it. I will make a few quick points about the city of Cambridge, which I represent. Cambridge is a genuine education city, with fine universities, an excellent further education college and brilliant sixth-form colleges. But as the Cambridge University Students Union points out, although the University of Cambridge is a very wealthy university—perhaps the wealthiest in Europe—sadly Cambridge is also the UK’s most unequal city on some measures. In CUSU’s words: “Students must pay extortionate rents, College bills and other hidden costs, while maintenance loans and University and College bursaries have been largely stagnant.”
“It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Sir George, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield). He said almost exactly what I would have said, but I would not have put it so well. Colleagues of different parties have made similar points, so I will try not to repeat them. I find myself returning to the point made by the Institute for Fiscal Studies that the value of maintenance loans for students from the poorest families is at its lowest in real terms since 2016-17, and the poorest students in England are more than £1,000 worse off than in 2021-22. Like the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), I respect the Minister, but he has to explain how the Government have allowed this situation to develop, because there has been a paltry rise in the maintenance loan.”
“The Government have lost the plot when it comes to the big environmental challenges that we face.”
“Will the Minister confirm that the Government remain committed to it? It is important, because the “polluter pays” principle was once a driving principle of this Government. We agree, because for too long producers, brands and retailers have not had to take full accountability for the products they place on the market. I am sure the Minister agrees that EPR can be a crucial step towards a more sustainable resource management system. We have a real opportunity to be world leaders abroad and innovators at home, but that requires boldness, ambition and commitment. I do not doubt the Minister’s personal commitment, but it seems to many of us that the wider Government are on the run when it comes to environmental policy. We will not force the issue to a vote today, but the wider world knows the truth.”
“Friend the Member for Newport West has pressed the point about enforcement on a range of issues. There is a lack of clarity about how the new regime will be enforced, not least based on what happened when the original legislation was introduced. Will the Minister outline how much money her Department has allocated to enforcement? As we all know, there is no point introducing new rules unless they are going to be enforced. We can also see from the legislation that the proposals will have a limited impact on the resources sector as that is more aimed at the producers. I suspect that any impact will depend on the type of business and where it is in the value chain. Can the Minister outline what engagement she has had with producers and the producers sector? Overshadowing all this is the wider extended producer responsibility regime.”
“The Government responded that they expect the costs will be covered by the extended producer responsibility disposal cost fees borne by the packaging producers and payable to local authorities. However, that was their answer when they were arguing that the costs were minimal. As I have argued, like many of the stakeholders in this sector and beyond, I am not convinced that they will be minimal. Therefore, I am concerned about the wider consequences. Can the Minister tell us who she thinks will bear those costs, and over what timescale? Can she also tell us what meetings have taken place between her Department and the sector? How often and when? I understand that she might not know today, but perhaps she could write to me. In recent years, my hon.”
“The Government have too readily dismissed the analysis of the Environmental Services Association. Can the Minister explain how she is so sure that the association is wrong, and the costs will not exceed the £2.65 million threshold required for a proper impact assessment? If she is wrong, will she carry out that assessment and think again? Why is she so reluctant to submit the policy to proper scrutiny? The question is: who is going to end up paying for all this, either directly or indirectly? Will it be the facilities, manufacturers or local authorities, or will it ultimately be the consumers and council tax payers? I draw Members’ attention to the Government’s response to the question posed by the Green Alliance, which, for those with a sharp eye, can be found in the report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee.”
“The association noted that, in a quarter of cases, the SI could require investment of £50 million for each facility and that some facilities would need to close for up to 12 months to be able to reconfigure their operations and comply with new testing requirements. An extensive survey of stakeholders that the association carried out found that just over half of all recycling facilities lack the space for the enhanced sampling requirements. Many, including waste transfer stations, will require reconfiguration and reduced throughput to accommodate the requirements. Those sites will also incur significant additional logistical challenges, such as additional staff traffic and a move to off-site sample analysis. If that is the case, it seems that the implications have not been properly thought through.”
“I am told that one waste company claims that it will have to recruit an additional 80 staff to fulfil the testing requirements at new sites. Employing those 80 new staff alone will run to more than £1 million a year for just one company, and that is before the new equipment and reconfigurations are taken into account. The Environmental Services Association has undertaken a detailed analysis of the logistical and financial impact of the additional obligations presented by this statutory instrument and has concluded that the costs would significantly exceed the £2.65 million threshold for an impact assessment.”
“Certainly, the sense I get is that there has been insufficient consultation and engagement. One of the key questions is understandably about cost. The Government claim that minimal costs will be incurred for the recycling facilities and other stakeholders by the additional regulatory burdens, including the requirement to conduct more sampling and report considerably more data. There has not been a full impact assessment, which would have provided a much clearer picture of precisely how the changes will affect recycling centres, food and drink producers, local authorities and, ultimately, consumers and taxpayers. I find it extremely hard to believe that, in the first instance, materials facilities that recycle waste and have to comply with the additional regulation will not incur significant additional costs.”
“Frankly, the Government’s environment policies are in tatters, which makes it hard to support extra regulation for businesses in a scheme that I am not convinced the Government will ever be able to enact. I remain, however, an eternal optimist. Despite the shambles, let us hope a way forward can be found. There are some issues of detail about the planning, implementation and costs associated with these proposals. I am not fully persuaded that they have been properly thought through. There is a lack of clarity about how the scheme will work; indeed, I have talked to stakeholders, and they seem perplexed at the lack of detail. Businesses need to be able to plan for the future, not left in the dark, worrying about how many additional staff they might need to recruit or how much they need to set aside to invest in new equipment.”
“We agree with the regulations: more data and information about the waste that we as a society generate will help us with our ultimate aim to protect the environment and minimise waste in all areas of our lives. I have some concerns, however, about the details, which I will come to, and more widely. I think it is fair to say that it has perhaps not been a tremendously good summer for the Minister and her Secretary of State, whether because of poor water quality in our rivers, continuing poor air quality, the debacle about deposit return schemes, the chaos around nutrient neutrality or—specifically relating to the regulations—yet more delays on extended producer responsibility.”
“Friend the Member for Newport West (Ruth Jones), who is away on parliamentary business today, so cannot attend this sitting as she normally would. I will not detain Members for too long. Normally, I would start by reassuring the Whips as to whether we will support the SI—I can immediately reassure them that we will not be pressing this to a Division—but should say that the decision has been more difficult than usual. I will explain why. We support the basic principles of what the Government are trying to do with the regulations. It is clearly important that we as a nation go as far as we can to avoid unnecessary waste and all the negative impact it creates for the environment and through costs to the consumer.”