Kevin Hollinrake
MP for Thirsk and Malton · Conservative · United Kingdom
“That issue is one of the many things that the people who signed the petition are concerned about, Dr Huq. One of the big things that the Government promised, which I agree with them about, is the need to encourage faster growth in our economy. Of course that is right, but look at where that growth is.”
“The UK economy went through many challenges, of course, some of them caused by Brexit; the reality is that a change like that was bound to have a short-term effect—but only a short-term effect. The country grew faster than Germany and France during that period of time.”
“As I said before, governing is not easy; we had many challenges ourselves, and we did not get everything right, but what we did during that difficult period of time—those 14 years—was get 1.2 million more people employed in our economy. Unemployment was halved during our time in office.”
“Of course, many Government Members supported his leadership challenge. We are here now, looking forward to a general election coming down the track. We are ready for a general election when the Government are, because, unlike them, we have a strong leader—against their weak leader.”
“I was, absolutely. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (John Lamont) for his excellent opening speech. He made so many good points, not least about the level of support for this petition.”
“Members on the Government side of the House also feel betrayed and angry with their own leadership, for marching them up to the top of the hill and marching them back down again on many of these issues, but they do not feel as betrayed as the businesspeople in this country in particular.”
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“I thank the hon. Gentleman for his amendment, which is very sensibly thought out. It proposes that the new rules for subscription contracts come into effect from April 2026. I very much admire his wish to balance the needs of businesses and consumers; that is exactly what we should be doing. Competitive markets that rely on business investment are good for consumers too, so there is a delicate balance to strike. The hon. Gentleman seeks to ensure that businesses have clarity about the start date and know when the new rules will come into effect so they can make appropriate preparations. We have listened very closely to the needs of business. I met Sky and others that will be affected by the change to hear their concerns. The hon. Gentleman said that the proposal goes further than other measures set out previously.”
“Again, the balance we need to strike must not delay the commencement of the Bill, because it will benefit consumers, and we are also making sure that stakeholders, including businesses, have time to understand and implement the new rules. We will continue to engage to make sure that both we and they fully understand the operationalised impact of the new rules. I hope the hon. Member will withdraw his amendment on the basis that we will keep those conversations ongoing.”
“I think there are differences in different sectors, and the hon. Gentleman referred to things such as mobile phone contracts. Lots of people subscribe to things they do not know about, as set out in the impact assessments and the various different evidence we have had from different parties. There are differences, and we believe it is right to have slightly more frequent requirements, such as six-monthly notifications, but we are continuing to discuss these issues. Yesterday we met a representative of the media industry, who raised similar concerns, and we are listening to them. We certainly hope to strike the balance that the hon. Gentleman seeks, but we think it is wrong to put a commencement date on the face of the Bill, given that there is quite a lot of work to do to get it to pass through both Houses.”
“Clause 316 makes provision regarding commencement of the Bill. Part 6 and powers to make regulations will commence at Royal Assent, and all other parts will commence by way of regulations made by the Secretary of State. Clause 317 establishes the short title.”
“If the rules are applied, there should be no need for further action on the secondary market, such as that proposed. However, we will work with the CMA to monitor the market and technological developments to assess whether the measure is both practical and necessary. New clause 9 seeks to put a strict obligation on a secondary ticketing facility to verify certain information provided to it by a seller. The CMA acknowledges that placing a strict liability on platforms in this way would be an unprecedented step. Moreover, thanks to previous enforcement work of the CMA and others in the secondary ticketing market, choices and associated costs are more transparent than they were five years ago. Therefore, it is not clear to me that the proposal would amount to proportionate regulation.”
“As she said, the National Trading Standards eCrime Team successfully prosecuted two ticket touts for fraud and consumer law breaches. They received prison sentences of four years and two and a half years and were subject to a £6.2 million confiscation order. Despite the imposition of additional regulation by the Breaching of Limits on Ticket Sales Regulations 2018, it is those general consumer protection law powers that the regulators have tended to use most effectively. New clause 8 would make the platform liable where the number of tickets resold on a platform by an individual seller exceeded the maximum set by the event organiser in the primary market. It is already an offence to use automated software to buy more tickets for events than permitted, with a view to financial gain.”
“One overarching point that I think it is fair to make here is that we should all encourage the primary market to do more to inhibit touting and report breaches of existing law. If anybody went to Glastonbury recently, they would have found great difficulty in—in fact, the impossibility of—selling on tickets, because they are limited to the person who bought the tickets in the first place, so it is clear that primary markets can do more to clamp down on secondary ticketing malpractice where it exists. The Bill, under part 3, will itself give more powers to the CMA and other public enforcers to enforce existing consumer protection law, which includes legislation applicable to the secondary tickets sector. The shadow Minister referred to good work that is going on in this area, including existing laws.”
“Two of these new clauses seek to add further regulation on secondary ticketing and platforms. The third would provide for a report on the introduction of a new regulatory function for the secondary ticketing market, to be prepared within 12 months of the Bill receiving Royal Assent. I thank the hon. Member for these new clauses. I am also grateful for the work of her colleague, the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West, who has worked so hard in this space. The new clauses reflect the recommendations made by the CMA in its secondary ticketing report from 2021, as the hon. Member for Feltham and Heston said. She also referred to our position, which we set out on 10 May 2023. At this point, it is too early, we believe, to bring forward further regulation on secondary ticketing.”
“14MC.] In relation to the CMA’s new consumer direct enforcement functions under part 3 of the Bill, clause 193 gives the Secretary of State the power to request a report from the CMA from time to time on the effectiveness of interventions. Such a report must also be published by the CMA, so that it is available to parliamentarians and the public. I noted her points on the Regulatory Reform Group. I met Lord Tyrie and my hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Bim Afolami). They made some interesting points, which I am sure the wider House will have heard. These matters should be kept under review, but for these reasons, I hope the hon. Lady will withdraw the new clause.”
“I wholeheartedly agree that the CMA should be firmly accountable to Parliament across its digital competition and consumer functions. However, that is already the case. The CMA is already required to present an annual report to Parliament. That includes a survey of developments relating to its functions, assessments of its performance against its objectives and enforcement activity, and a summary of key decisions and financial expenditure. The CEO and chair of the CMA regularly appear before the relevant Select Committee—five times as the hon. Member said. Most recently, they appeared before the House of Lords Communications and Digital Committee. Indeed, they meet me on a regular basis, and we also provide an annual strategic steer. [Official Report, 20 July 2023, Vol. 736, c.”
“On a point of order, Dame Maria. I put on the record my thanks to all the Clerks and the many people who worked on the Bill, including all the officials and my private office, for doing a tremendous job. I thank Opposition Members for their constructive dialogue.”
“I beg to move amendment 71, in clause 217, page 146, line 5, leave out second “trader” and insert “person”. This amendment ensures that the definition of “commercial practice” for the purposes of Chapter 1 of Part 4 of the Bill includes an act or omission by a trader relating to the promotion or supply of a consumer’s product to another consumer.”
“Members will support Government amendment 71, and I propose that clauses 217 to 222 stand part of the Bill.”
“It requires traders to provide consumers with the information they need in an up front, clear and timely manner to make an informed transactional decision. Clause 220 defines and prohibits commercial practices that are aggressive and restates the equivalent provisions from the CPRs. Clause 221 defines and prohibits commercial practices that contravene the requirements of professional diligence and restates the equivalent provisions from the CPRs. It requires that traders do not engage in practices that fall below the standard of skill and care they may be reasonably expected to have provided. Clause 222 lists what information must be provided to consumers when a commercial practice is an invitation to purchase. The information is deemed material. I hope hon.”
“Government amendment 71 is a technical amendment to clause 217. It ensures that the Bill reflects acts or omissions by traders that are currently covered by the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, or the CPRs for short. It ensures that traders that enable private individuals to sell products to each other are within the scope of this chapter, reflecting the scope of current law. Clause 218 defines and prohibits commercial practices that are misleading actions and restates the equivalent provisions from the CPRs. It protects consumers from traders who deceive through the provision of false and misleading information. Clause 219 defines and prohibits commercial practices that are misleading omissions.”
“It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Mr McCabe. Clause 217 sets out the unfair commercial practices that are prohibited. Those include misleading actions, misleading omissions, aggressive practices, contravention of the requirements of professional diligence, the omission of material information from an invitation to purchase, and the practices listed in schedule 18. The clause also defines important terms for the purpose of this chapter, including “commercial practice”, “consumer” and “trader”. Commercial practice is defined as any act or omission by a trader relating to the promotion or supply of any trader’s product to a consumer or of a consumer’s product to another person. As such, a business providing a platform on which products are promoted or supplied may fall within the scope of this chapter.”
“I think there is just one key point that the hon. Lady asked me to address, which is about other types of coercion. Looking at the definition with regard to practices, clause 220 talks about “coercion or undue influence”. Under subsection (3), “‘undue influence’ means exploiting a position of power in relation to consumers so as to apply pressure in any way”. I think that covers the definition, as she requested. Amendment 71 agreed to.”
“Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Jo Gideon) has done fantastic campaigning in that area on button batteries. There is much we need to do. This is not just a consumer safety problem: it is about creating a fair and level playing field for UK retailers. The hon. Gentleman mentioned Argos and Amazon, but I would add our local high-street electrical stores, which have also been disadvantaged by online marketplaces being able to operate in the way they do.”
“Gentleman: these are not just UK-based problems: this is a global problem. As he knows, marketplaces operate around the globe and other jurisdictions are also seeking to tackle the issue. I hosted a roundtable with major online marketplaces in April and was clear that, in addition to their current duties, they must do much more to keep unsafe products off their sites, including removing third-party sellers who supply unsafe goods. That point was mentioned on Second Reading of the Online Sale of Goods (Safety) Bill, as the hon. Gentleman referenced just now. The Office for Product Safety and Standards, which I visited in Teddington, is following up with a programme of test purchases. There I saw at first hand some of the potential products sold online, such as toy magnets that do not comply with UK product standards. My hon.”
“I appreciate the continued spaghetti western analogies. In my case, “Pale Rider” might be a more apt example, as obviously my demographics mean that I am pale, stale and male, but we are keen to ensure that we have a proper shoot-out with the people the hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark describes. I am totally onside with the vast majority of what he says. He knows we need to make sure we take the right kind of action in this area, and his amendments would add provisions related to product safety to regulate the sale of dangerous and counterfeit goods in online marketplaces. Existing UK product law is clear: all products must be safe, including those sold online. However, we recognise the challenge the growth of online marketplaces has created for how we deliver product safety in a global economy. I gently say to the hon.”
“I entirely agree. We do not think the marketplaces are going far enough. It is a key phrase that the likes of Amazon, Wish and so on just see themselves as marketplaces rather than distributors. Our point is that they are distributors. The key thing is making sure that is properly defined in law. The hon. Gentleman is right to point out some of the percentages. That is the work done by the OPSS, defining that between 60% and 80% of the products it sampled were unsafe. That is clearly and completely wrong.”
“Perhaps if the hon. Gentleman allows me to go through my speech, I might be able to give some answers to his points. We are on exactly the same page on this and we have to get this right. He talks about getting the analysis right and raised a different analogy of where he considers we may have got that wrong in the past. It is important we get this right. From our perspective, the product safety route is the right way to do this. The whole product safety framework will be reformed, including online sales, and that holistic review of product safety, taking existing obligations into account—we believe there are distributor obligations—is the most appropriate vehicle for meeting concerns about unsafe goods sold online.”
“Gentleman’s point was about similar powers for other enforcement bodies such as trading standards. As I said to him, however, in a letter that I think he received yesterday, that is something I am keen to explore, and will do so over the summer. I will give him a final chance to intervene, if he wants, and then I will conclude.”
“We believe, however, that extensive enforcement powers are already available. For example, when a trader markets misleading or faulty goods online, enforcers including the CMA and trading standards can apply to the court for an enforcement order to stop and prohibit the marketing and sale of the offending goods under part 3 of the Bill. [ Interruption. ] If the hon. Gentleman will let me get to the point where I think he wants me to get to, that will be the point made in the letter. Part 3 of the Bill gives the CMA the power to impose an online interface order against the infringer or a third party. That type of order or notice may require the removal or alteration of online content on a website that gives access to or promotes the offending goods. The hon.”
“Very shortly. I just answered the shadow Minister; there is no prolonging this issue from my perspective. We are keen to get on with this but want to make sure the review is in the right place and the right shape when it happens. We want it to happen very soon. The forthcoming consultation will include proposals to ensure that shopping online is as safe as on the high street and that there is a fairer playing field for law-abiding businesses. We anticipate publishing these proposals soon and look forward to continuing engagement with our stakeholders to inform and shape our proposals. Amendment 124 would give powers to the Competition and Markets Authority and trading standards to require the removal of marketing material for counterfeit and dangerous products online.”
“I totally understand the hon. Gentleman’s point, which is why I will look at it over the summer. It is not provided for in the Bill, but he makes a good point and I am keen to explore the options. We will come back to the House at some point to report what we will do in this space. I therefore very much hope that he will withdraw his amendments.”
“Amendments 68 and 69 would add the practice of greenwashing to the list of banned practices in schedule 18, and would introduce a requirement for the Government to consult on the matter. I thank the hon. Member for Gordon for his amendments, and I absolutely agree that consumers should not be misled. I admire his commitment to recycling, which is admirable. I wondered whether I should touch on that, given the difficulties that the SNP has got into with its deposit return scheme, but—”
“It is against the law to mislead, and as she says, the CMA’s draft guidance on sustainability agreements between businesses, which aim to ensure that environmental goals are achieved, will give greater clarity on these issues. Those interventions are already significant. The Government’s priority is to ensure that interventions support our environmental goals; we would then observe their impact before taking further steps. I hope the hon. Member will withdraw amendment 68 on that basis.”
“I was just referring to the hon. Gentleman’s point. I will briefly say that our perspective is that a nationwide scheme would be best for business. Misleading consumers about the environmental qualities or impact of goods and services in a way that causes, or would likely cause, consumers to take a different decision is already against the law. Furthermore, under clause 187, when the CMA gives a provisional notice to a person in respect of an infringement of the unfair trading provisions, the CMA can require the respondent to provide evidence to substantiate the claims that they make to consumers. That meets the shadow Minister’s requirement.”
“We believe it is important to conduct that exercise first, so that we have a proper, evidence-driven policy. I hope the hon. Member will withdraw the amendment.”
“I share the hon. Member’s concerns. That is why we commissioned research earlier this year, which we will publish shortly. It will detail how widespread and harmful the practice is. The Prime Minister has already said that we will gather evidence on what steps the Government should take to tackle drip pricing, so I think we are aligned in our commitment to tackling the issue. One of the key challenges, which I do not think the hon. Lady addressed, is distinguishing drip pricing that is harmful or anti-competitive from practices that may offer greater value to the consumer—for example, a company offering optional extras such as faster postage or insurance. We will consult during the passage of the Bill on which elements of drip pricing might need tackling, and on whether further action is required.”
“I am keen to make a commitment to work with the hon. Member on the issue, and to ensure that a measure is brought forward as quickly as possible. I cannot give a precise date, but it will be very shortly.”
“I cannot say when Report will be, and I do not have the timetable for that, or for the consultation on the work that we may need to do on the issue. I cannot make that precise commitment, but we are very committed to delivering on drip pricing. As the hon. Member knows, the Prime Minister spoke on it, so I cannot imagine that there will be any undue delay.”
“I have spoken to both organisations and met them regularly. In fact, one of my first jobs in my ministerial role was to speak at an Electrical Safety First conference. On that note, I hope that hon. Members will withdraw their amendments.”
“That includes defining what we mean by fake reviews and how “reasonable and proportionate” steps will be understood. Similarly, we want those rules to encompass the manipulation of reviews that may harm consumers, which also needs detailed work with stakeholders to define. For example, the issue is not just about people trying to boost reviews, as the hon. Member for Feltham and Heston stated; it is also to do with people removing negative reviews inappropriately, which might affect ratings on review sites. The Government will therefore be consulting on fake reviews during the passage of the Bill to ensure that these rules work as intended and are clear for businesses. We will be doing that shortly, in the autumn. The hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark talked about ESF and Which?.”
“I am not sure that I can take that analogy any further. I think we are all in agreement. They say that the art of originality is to remember what you have heard but forget where you heard it. The Opposition say that we are stealing their good ideas, but obviously we committed some time ago to taking action in this area. I am not averse to taking some of the good ideas that we hear from the Opposition from time to time, but we also have to ensure that we reject the many bad ideas we hear from them in debates. The Government agree that legislation to tackle fake reviews should be strengthened. We anticipate doing so by adding to the list of banned practices. However, it is important to get the details of those proposals right.”
“As has been said, the schedule protects consumers from the most prevalent and harmful commercial practices engaged in by deceitful traders. It largely replicates schedule 1 to the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 and provides a list of 31 commercial practices that are banned in all circumstances due to their inherently unfair nature. Among those practices are operating pyramid promotional schemes, displaying trust marks without obtaining the necessary authorisation, and stating that a product can be legally sold when it cannot. Question put and agreed to. Schedule 18 accordingly agreed to. Clause s 218 to 221 ordered to stand part of the Bill.”
“However, I am happy to have further conversations with the hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark, certainly based on the evidence he has received, which I am happy to look at. Amendment 127 would require that information as to whether a third-party seller or online marketplace is a trader or a consumer be added to the list of material information in an invitation to purchase. We have the same aim. Clause 222(2)(c) will require “the identity of the trader and the identity of any other person on whose behalf the trader is acting” to be disclosed. Moreover, subsections (2)(d) and (e) will require a range of contact details to be provided to consumers about who they may be buying from. Accordingly, I hope that hon. Members will not press their amendments.”
“It is an interesting point. We took the decision to strengthen the existing provisions in the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 in relation to invitations to purchase by removing the need for enforcers to prove that the transactional decision test has been met. This significantly increases the criminal liability of unscrupulous traders. Amendment 126 would expand the definition of an invitation to purchase still further to cases in which information about products is presented to consumers without a price shown. We are concerned that that would expand the definition too far. Moreover, other provisions in chapter 1 of the Bill will achieve a similar aim: they will prohibit traders from making misleading statements or omissions in respect of all commercial practices. We feel that that covers this issue.”
“Clause 223 sets out who is responsible for enforcing the prohibition on unfair commercial practices. Trading standards have a duty to enforce the prohibitions in their areas across Great Britain. The Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland has a duty to enforce the prohibitions in Northern Ireland. The CMA has the power to enforce the prohibitions on a civil and criminal basis in the UK.”
“I have meetings with the national teams of trading standards, and indeed the CMA, on a regular basis. We have had numerous discussions about the legislation, if the hon. Lady means her question broadly. Indeed, she was able to question some of those witnesses in the recent evidence sessions. Clearly, resources for trading standards are a matter for local authorities, not central Government. It is for local authorities to determine where those resources are committed. Question put and agreed to. Clause 223 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 224 Rights of redress Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.”
“Clause 224 sets out the conditions under which consumers may exercise redress rights. The main condition is that misleading actions or aggressive practices must play a significant factor in the consumer’s decision to make payment for the supply of a good or enter a contract. Without the clause, victims of rogue traders who engage in lies and aggressive selling practices would be left with no private right of redress.”
“The outcome, however, is similar to the desired situation under the EU’s directive on collective redress, which requires member states to designate entities, such as consumer organisations, that can bring actions for collective redress on consumers’ behalf. The EU does not mandate that member states introduce direct rights for individual consumers to bring an action for collective redress. We will keep the evidence under review, but our priority is to embed the CMA direct enforcement regime and understand the impact that it makes. On that basis, I hope that hon. Members will not press their amendments.”
“For example, in 2021 the CMA secured an undertaking from Teletext Holidays to pay over £7 million in outstanding refunds from package travel trips cancelled due to covid-19. The Bill will make the power to require enhanced consumer measures directly available to the CMA. Consumers also already have individual private rights of redress. In the “Reforming competition and consumer policy” consultation, we consulted on whether to introduce a right for consumers to bring collective redress. Responses were mixed, with concerns raised about unintended consequences such as the creation of a claims culture and inadvertently disincentivising the bringing of proceedings by consumer groups. The hon. Member for Feltham and Heston referred to the EU situation.”
“We would like to retain the ability to exceed the existing private redress provisions, if appropriate, which may encourage more consumers to make use of these rights. The first regulations made using the power will be to create the new regime to replace the current private redress provisions in the CPRs. Accordingly, those regulations will be subject to parliamentary approval via the affirmative procedure, thereby providing for appropriate parliamentary oversight of use of the power. I turn to amendment 114. The courts already have the power to make an enforcement order against an infringer, or to accept undertakings from them to provide redress to affected consumers, through the measures in part 3. Enforcers can also accept undertakings from infringers to provide redress to affected consumers.”
“Amendments 67 and 114 deal with consumers’ private rights to redress. I agree with the hon. Members for Feltham and Heston and for Gordon that it is vital that consumers have robust private rights of redress. Amendment 67 would limit changes by regulation to the consumer rights of redress to those that are equivalent to the remedies in the CPRs—the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008. The Bill includes powers to amend rights of redress. That could include how such rights are exercised; the powers could also be used to make those rights clearer and simpler. Those would be positive changes for consumers that might not meet the test of equivalence to the current regulations that the amendment would impose.”
“Any legal claim must be brought within the time limit for simple contracts that applies under the Limitation Act 1980. If successful, a consumer will then have the right to unwind, the right to a discount, or the right to damages. Clause 227 outlines the relationship between consumers’ private redress rights and other claims that are related to the prohibited practices of misleading actions and aggressive practices. It states that a consumer is not prevented from pursuing a claim under a rule of law, equity, or other legislation, but they cannot recover compensation twice for the same conduct.”
“It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Dame Maria. Clause 225 enables the Secretary of State to make new regulations for consumers to have a right to unwind, a right to discount and a right to damages. The regulations may cover, among other things, how such rights are to be exercised and when damages are to be payable. Before these regulations are made, the existing private redress provisions set out in the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 will continue to apply. The first use of the power will be subject to the affirmative procedure, ensuring appropriate parliamentary scrutiny. Clause 226 sets out how consumers can exercise their right to redress and allows consumers to undertake civil court action.”
“I am very grateful. I have just a couple of points. Obviously, no gap will occur because of this, because the existing provisions are still effective until the provisions are replaced by any provisions made by the regulations. The reason for doing it like that is to create more flexibility around different measures that might need to be introduced. The world of consumers, consumer behaviour and activity providing services for consumers and goods is changing rapidly, so it makes sense to take a more flexible approach. Question put and agreed to. Clause 225 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clauses 226 and 227 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 228 Inertia selling Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.”
“Clause 228 protects consumers against inertia selling, which occurs when traders send unsolicited products to consumers and then demand payment for the products or that the products be returned or safely stored. The clause provides clarity for consumers and traders, leaving no room for doubt. Consumers are exempt from any obligation to pay for the unrequested products, return them or store them safely. The lack of a response by a consumer to a trader does not mean that the consumer has agreed to pay for, return or store the product.”