Kevin Hollinrake
MP for Thirsk and Malton · Conservative · United Kingdom
“That issue is one of the many things that the people who signed the petition are concerned about, Dr Huq. One of the big things that the Government promised, which I agree with them about, is the need to encourage faster growth in our economy. Of course that is right, but look at where that growth is.”
“The UK economy went through many challenges, of course, some of them caused by Brexit; the reality is that a change like that was bound to have a short-term effect—but only a short-term effect. The country grew faster than Germany and France during that period of time.”
“As I said before, governing is not easy; we had many challenges ourselves, and we did not get everything right, but what we did during that difficult period of time—those 14 years—was get 1.2 million more people employed in our economy. Unemployment was halved during our time in office.”
“Of course, many Government Members supported his leadership challenge. We are here now, looking forward to a general election coming down the track. We are ready for a general election when the Government are, because, unlike them, we have a strong leader—against their weak leader.”
“I was, absolutely. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (John Lamont) for his excellent opening speech. He made so many good points, not least about the level of support for this petition.”
“Members on the Government side of the House also feel betrayed and angry with their own leadership, for marching them up to the top of the hill and marching them back down again on many of these issues, but they do not feel as betrayed as the businesspeople in this country in particular.”
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“My hon. Friend makes a good point. I wish him the best of luck in the election this afternoon. It is for a very important Committee that will scrutinise this legislation. The final offer mechanism is innovative and represents a positive way forward, in that it will bring parties to the table and they will both have to make sensible offers relating to how they see a fair resolution. This will avoid them putting unrealistic claims on the table, and it could well help the news industry and many other sectors.”
“Obviously they report to Parliament every year, and the Select Committee work is also important. I think that my hon. Friend and I would agree that the best way to regulate markets is through competitive environments, and that is what we should always favour in this discussion.”
“I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his engagement on this. We have discussed this at length many times, both in my role as a Minister and in my previous role as a Back Bencher, when we looked at the best form of regulation. I think we both agree that ex post regulation is preferable to ex ante regulation, as is a pro-competitive environment, as I said earlier. We should step in only when there is market failure. Of course we should look at the powers and ensure that they are being used wisely, and I have confidence that the CMA will do that. There are a number of checks and balances on the CMA and the DMU, not least through the competition appeal tribunal and the courts, which ensure that decisions are valid and worthwhile, but we should also have a good debate on how we scrutinise the DMU and CMA generally.”
“The UK is currently the only G7 country without civil penalties for common breaches of consumer protection such as unfair trading. Part 3 creates a new model that will allow the CMA to act faster, tackle more cases and protect consumers’ interests while creating a level playing field for businesses. Part 4 tackles the subscription traps that cost consumers £1.6 billion a year. We expect there to be a £400 million saving for consumers as a result of the measures we have proposed. I am sure that many Members know constituents—”
“My hon. Friend makes an important point. The tech industry is clearly very powerful in terms of its resources and its ability to recruit the best people. My experience of the CMA is that there are good people within it, and I expect that to be reflected in the DMU as well. People who have been connected to the CMA, including former chairs, have spoken highly of its abilities, but my hon. Friend makes the important point that we need to have the best people so that we can hold those powerful entities to account. The legislation will be delivered through making market inquiries more efficient, focused and proportionate, updating the merger regime and amending existing legislation concerning anti-competitive conduct and abuse of a dominant position. The measures in parts 3 and 4 make important updates and improvements to consumer law.”
“I think I am going to hear about one in a moment. Many Members will know constituents who have received shock charges for a subscription or faced difficulties when trying to cancel one. The Bill contains new rights to subscription reminders and easier cancellations, so that those who want out can get out.”
“There are also new protections for consumer prepayments to consumer saving schemes, so that devastating cases such as the collapse of the Farepak Christmas savings club, which left vulnerable consumers out of pocket, can never be repeated. Together, these measures deliver on our manifesto commitment to tackle consumer rip-offs and bad business practices, demonstrating that this is a Government who back consumers.”
“That is an interesting point and I would be happy to look at the matter in detail. It is not something that I have considered thus far but perhaps we can have a discussion about it at a later stage. We will certainly pick it up if we can and make sure that it does not cut us across anything that my hon. Friend is concerned about. This legislation includes other measures to help consumers to keep more of their hard-earned cash, including a power to add to the list of banned practices. We intend to use this power first to tackle the wild west of fake reviews, which can dupe customers into buying shoddy goods and services.”
“My right hon. Friend makes a strong point, and it is one reason why we are reviewing the economic regulators. The work has been ongoing for 18 months, and we are due to produce our thoughts this spring. It is important that regulators focus on consumer outcomes and, as others have said, a more competitive environment produces the best outcomes, so he is right to draw attention to that issue.”
“The annual cost to business is £178 million, which we must consider carefully when we bring forward new regulatory burdens, but most people will think that the measures are needed because there is a huge consumer benefit of roughly £1 billion a year over 10 years, so it is important that we strike that balance. I am not aware that the cost to the state has been calculated, but my right hon. Friend and I are probably most concerned about the cost to business.”
“I look forward to engaging with colleagues as the Bill makes its way through the House, and I hope Members will give it their backing so that the Government can continue our work of protecting consumers, increasing competition in all markets and growing the UK economy.”
“Some will respond to the Bill by saying that we should go harder against big tech, but I remind them that the Bill’s primary purpose is to reduce economic harms, to boost competition, to create a fair and level playing field, and to give consumers greater choice and better prices. We need to act, but we must act proportionally because tech firms make a valuable contribution to the economy and our lives. Big does not equal bad. A war on tech will not create growth. It has already been argued in this debate that the CMA has enough power, and my response is that technology is changing rapidly and our watchdogs need to be equipped to fully support businesses and consumers in this competitive world.”
“My hon. Friend makes a very good point, and it is why only a few days ago we published a framework for better regulation to look at these things in the round and to make sure we have regulators that serve the public, rather than the interests of the regulator. We do not want to see regulatory creep for any purpose other than consumer benefit, and he and I will continue to have significant dialogue on those issues. Some Members will argue that we should legislate more like the EU’s Digital Markets Act, by using this Bill to create sweeping, one-size-fits-all measures. However, our Brexit freedoms mean we can draft legislation that drives innovation without placing blanket obligations on firms or creating unnecessary regulatory burdens.”
“Will the hon. Gentleman therefore support our approach, which is to consult in parallel with the passage of the Bill through both Houses about things like drip pricing and fake reviews, so that we can have that open dialogue and make sure that we get the answers right, including to the questions posed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (John Redwood)?”
“My hon. Friend raised a fair point. A fair and level playing field is important for our wider economy and opportunity. Alongside the Bill, we are keen to bring forward the product safety review, which looks at online marketplaces and how they sell and distribute products compared with our normal high-street locations, which have far more stringent product safety requirements. So a body of work is going on alongside this one.”
“I certainly do not ask for any bragging rights. May I thank the hon. Lady for the work she does on the all-party parliamentary group on ticket abuse? On the case she refers to, she is right to say that it is three years since the conviction took place, but the confiscation order, which was for £6.1 million, took place only in December last year. Does she think that sends a strong message to the cohort of people she refers to that there are strict and strong penalties for people who engage in that kind of activity?”
“Finally, let me finish by reiterating that the Government remain steadfast in their commitment to ensure swift and fair compensation to postmasters who suffered as a result of the Horizon scandal and are grateful for Sir Wyn’s work leading the Horizon inquiry. We will keep the House updated on this issue.”
“The scope of the investigation is to ensure that the remuneration committee’s approach and processes on rewarding its executives in this case was consistent with corporate governance best practice. I expect this investigation to report back to me within two weeks with its findings and recommendations. I can also announce that my Department is commissioning a wider independent review of the governance around Post Office decisions on remuneration. It should make recommendations about any further changes that are needed. This will run alongside the Post Office remuneration committee chair’s investigation of this specific incident. Further details will follow.”
“The Post Office has rightly apologised to the inquiry and issued a clarification on its website. The Post Office chief executive officer and chief finance officer have returned the remuneration associated with the sub-metric relating to the Post Office’s support for the inquiry. The Post Office CEO has also apologised to Department for Business and Trade Ministers. But more needs to be done. As a first step it is important that the facts are established. The Post Office has rightly announced that the incoming chair of its remuneration committee, Amanda Burton, will lead an immediate investigation into this incident. She was appointed non-executive director on the Post Office board at the end of last month and brings to the role experience and expertise from her time in the legal profession.”
“I thank the right hon. Gentleman for tabling this urgent question; I was very keen to come to the House to make a statement on this matter had he not done so and am keen to answer his question here today. The situation is extremely concerning and deeply regrettable and the Post Office is right to apologise. This is a very serious issue, particularly as it comes at a time when it is essential that the public have confidence that the culture and processes at the Post Office have been improved. Since becoming aware of this incident, I have acted swiftly, calling for an immediate explanation from the Post Office as to how this mistake occurred and asking what steps the Post Office board is taking in response. I met officials in my Department and UK Government Investments yesterday to discuss what further action is needed.”
“The criteria for the bonus are published in the annual report, but I am happy to commit to come back to the House and report, by whatever means, on the findings of the remuneration committee and the independent expert external report that will look at these issues in the round. As I said in my remarks, I absolutely think that the Post Office needs to change its culture and its approach to these matters, and wider matters arising from the Post Office scandal. We are determined to make sure that people get fair compensation; I know that the right hon. Gentleman, too, is determined to make sure that happens, and he has been a doughty campaigner for that cause for many years.”
“I am grateful for the right hon. Gentleman’s work on the advisory board, as he set out. I was keen to support the advisory board’s recommendation to widen the scope of the scheme to cover other elements of the compensation scheme, so I thank him again for the work that he does. To respond to the right hon. Gentleman’s specific questions, I was made aware of this on 6 May, Saturday; the officials were made aware on 5 May. It is absolutely right that we should have been notified of this earlier. I met with Tom Cooper yesterday, together with other officials and UK Government Investments representatives. Tom has accepted that mistakes were made, including on his behalf. Tom Cooper was already due to leave his role as the shareholder representative, which is the UKGI role he plays, and is being replaced by Lorna Gratton.”
“My right hon. Friend and I have discussed and corresponded on this matter at length. I am a big fan of mutuals, and I spoke in favour of them many times as a Back Bencher. I am happy to keep those conversations going, and mutualisation is certainly not something I would dismiss out of hand.”
“Finally, we are determined to resolve the tax problem that some people in the historical shortfall scheme have suffered. We are working on that at pace right now.”
“As I said earlier, I became aware of the matter on Saturday, and my officials became aware of it the previous day. I understand that the UKGI representative was made aware in the early part of April. We asked why we were not made aware at that point, and there are questions about information that is restricted to the inquiry. There are provisions around that, and we need to make sure it is disclosed to us appropriately and as quickly as possible. To my mind, the Post Office should have made us aware of this situation straightaway. Clearly we have to follow due process, including good employment processes, in publishing any report by Amanda Burton. I cannot make a commitment on that, or on the repayment of bonuses, due to employment laws and regulations.”
“My hon. Friend and I discussed this yesterday, and he takes a great interest in such matters given his background, including as a former sub-postmaster. I understand his concerns about why such a metric was used in the first place. Some time ago, there was an attempt to move away from purely financial considerations in bonuses. I fully recognise that the conditions under which this bonus was authorised are questionable, to say the least. Holding to account Fujitsu and other people who are responsible for this scandal is clearly a role for the inquiry. We should follow due process and wait for the facts to be published before deciding what action to take against those responsible.”
“I thank the hon. Lady for all the work she does as chair of the all-party parliamentary group and for engaging with me on many different issues, not least this one. I agree that this should never have happened, which makes it all the more concerning. The external independent review will do just that, and we are keen to ensure that it happens as soon as possible, to get under the skin of this and find out exactly what happened and who is responsible. I have great sympathy for her position that bonuses should be awarded for appropriate measures, and not for something the Post Office should be doing anyway.”
“I am not aware of the circumstances to which my hon. Friend refers, but I am happy to engage with him separately on the matter. Remuneration is clearly important to our postmasters, and we want to ensure that we have a sustainable network. Some improvements have been made this year, including a 20% increase in payments for bank deposit transaction. We need to make sure that the post office network is sustainable for the future, and that includes our postmasters being able to make a decent living.”
“I am keen to deal with the matters I have referred to in my statement and in answers to questions. I understand the intent to move away from purely financial considerations, which were one thing that drove inappropriate behaviour in the Post Office before. However, the hon. Gentleman raises a good point, and I fully recognise that the conditions on which the bonuses were paid and authorised were questionable. I am keen to look at this in the round, to include the other matters we have discussed today, and to resolve these matters for good, so that we have an organisation fit for purpose in the future.”
“I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his question, and I certainly agree with that last point. People often confuse the Royal Mail’s activities with those of the Post Office, but there have been some issues with both organisations in recent months. We are keen to ensure that we do whatever we can to resolve those problems, and I am happy to talk to him at length about how we might do that.”
“I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his points. The Government’s position is that we are maintaining a network of 11,500 branches nationally and that 99% of the population will be within 3 miles of a post office. That will continue, and there are other criteria, which we will continue to maintain. He is right that we need to ensure there is a sustainable business model for a post office, and I am happy to discuss with him whether that involves the relationship with banking. Opportunities for banking hubs, for example, might make those businesses more sustainable, and I am keen to exploit such opportunities wherever we can.”
“My hon. Friend raises a number of good points and an interesting way of looking at how we can incentivise management to make sure we have a sustainable network of post offices in the future. I am happy to engage with him further on that.”
“We have set aside £1 billion to compensate postmasters for various different detriments that they have suffered, and our message to all postmasters affected by this scandal is: please come forward, you will be treated fairly. There is an independent processes to make sure that is the case, including the advisory board, of which the right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) is a member.”
“I spent much of the coronation day dealing with this matter, as the hon. Gentleman might imagine, although I had the TV on in the background. It is disappointing that this took so long; as I said earlier, Tom Cooper found out about this matter in early April and we should have been made aware earlier, either through the Post Office or by other means. I am sorry about what has happened to the hon. Gentleman’s constituent, and the hon. Gentleman and I have talked about it previously. We want all people who have suffered as a consequence of the Post Office scandal to come forward and make sure that they submit a claim for compensation. That is the most important thing now.”
“I am sorry to hear the tragic case of my hon. Friend’s constituent; sadly, too many people have died waiting for justice and compensation. Of course, a claim for compensation can still be made and it would go to the family, and people will get reasonable legal fees paid as part of the compensation process. Again, if any Member has constituents who have suffered detriment and are looking for compensation, I am keen to engage with them to make sure that they submit the claim, so that it can be dealt with as quickly as possible.”
“That matter needs to be determined by the different inquiries that will be taking place. I think the hon. Gentleman would agree that we have to follow due process; there are employment processes and laws associated with this. I cannot stand up here and say now what I would do on the payment of bonuses, but he can be assured that we are looking at the situation carefully, and I am sure that what he sets out will be one of the considerations made as part of these investigations.”
“As I say, we should wait for the outcome of the inquiry, but these are serious matters and we should take them seriously. I have great sympathy with my hon. Friend’s points. A lot of these matters are governed by employment law, and it is important that we respect due process. We would expect other organisations to do that and we should do it too, but I will take his comments on board, of course.”
“The sub-metric referred to here is an element of the bonus, and the total bonus of £400,000 does not relate to this particular sub-metric in its entirety—the hon. Gentleman is right to say that. I have sympathy with what he says. It would be wrong for me to stand here and comment on a matter that is clearly subject to employment law. I do not think that could be done in a normal commercial organisation—I have spent most of my life in such organisations—and it would be wrong for me to do that as a Minister; we in this place make the rules and we have to follow them as well. I take his point, of course, and we will be looking at these matters extremely seriously when we have the results of both reviews.”
“It is important that we have a remuneration package that attracts the right kind of person—many people will question whether that is the case today. On the compensation fund, the Government are prepared to fund compensation up to £1 billion, and that commitment has already been made. We want to make sure that everybody who has suffered as a consequence of the Post Office accounting scandal is returned to the position they were in before detriment was suffered and gets compensation in other areas, such as for non-pecuniary losses.”
“By whatever means, I am very happy to have a further discussion with the right hon. Gentleman. We want to make sure that we have a sustainable network, which must mean that postmasters can run sustainable businesses. It is in the nature of things that, with the reduction in mail volumes and the frequency with which any of us visit post offices and use them for different reasons, it is more difficult to be a postmaster today than it was a decade ago, but we are keen to make sure that there is a sustainable future for the network and for the individual businesses that make up that network.”
“It is a difficult balance to strike. The best way forward is to make sure that we find more business opportunities for postmasters to make a living.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for his question and Mr Borroughs for the work that he does for the community. My hon. Friend is right to say that post offices and postmasters are at the heart of our community—that is absolutely right. As I have said, they are needed now more than ever with the demise of many banks on our high streets. He was absolutely right to say that. However, it would be wrong of me to say from this Dispatch Box what incentives we are considering to make sure that we have the right network for the future, but, clearly, these matters are under review. The network itself is supported heavily by the taxpayer—about £2.5 billion over the past 10 years. We are balancing what we need to make sure that we have a sustainable network and sustainable businesses with the impact on, and asks of, our taxpayers.”
“We are trying to address a number of different things, including making sure that people are properly compensated and that we have a sustainable business going forward. It is a difficult balance to strike. As I said, the taxpayer supports the post office network to a significant degree—£2.5 billion over the past 10 years, so it is about striking that balance. If we talk to any postmaster, we will find that the principal challenge they face is finding more business—getting more people through the door to use their services. That is why we need to determine what the best future for post offices is to make sure that there is a sustainable business. Obviously, we encourage all our citizens and constituents to use their post office to make sure that those post offices have a sustainable future.”
“My hon. Friend raises a fair point. It is important that we pay the right package to get the right person for the job. People have had questions about that today, and I understand that. We do want to make sure that we have a sustainable future for our post offices. I pay tribute, as he does, to the postmasters in his area who do a tremendous job, but it is important that we find that sustainable future. I am very happy to engage with him and discuss our work in that regard to make sure that that is the case.”
“I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his points, and I agree with many of them. I, too, represent a rural area and have a number of post offices that have closed either temporarily or otherwise. Yes, we want that sustainable network. Yes, that is a key part of the conversation that I constantly have with the Post Office management and senior leadership. I accept his point that many of our postmasters are struggling to make a living. We must make sure that they have a sustainable future at a business and network level. The taxpayer makes significant contributions to ensure that that is the case today, and that is the balance that we need to strike. I am very keen to achieve the right hon. Gentleman’s objective, which is a sustainable future for our network.”
“I think the first step is to look at the evidence to find out what has actually happened and who is responsible, and then we can decide what action we need to take. We have two parallel inquiries and reviews: one by the remuneration committee and another by an independent external expert. I did not answer the earlier question about the speed of that inquiry. The remuneration committee will report back within two weeks. We have not set a timeline for the external review, but we will do so, and we will make Parliament aware of it as soon as possible. We should of course consider any action that results from that, but that must be within the context of due process.”
“I join the hon. Gentleman in paying tribute to the right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) for this urgent question and for all the work he has done for postmasters up and down the country. I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s point about reputation and that many will feel that this is another slap in the face. I completely understand his points. He mentions accountability, and he knows from the work we have done together that I agree with him: scrutiny and accountability are necessary, and we must ensure that the process of the reviews that we are undertaking is as transparent as possible and subject to parliamentary scrutiny. I am very happy to ensure that that is the case.”
“I am grateful to be called, Dame Maria, and it is a pleasure to speak in the debate. I congratulate the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mick Whitley) on bringing this timely subject forward. I thought it would be appropriate to type his question into ChatGPT. I put in, “What is the potential impact of AI on the labour market?” It said, “AI has the potential to transform many aspects of the economy and society for the better. It also raises concerns about job displacement and the future of work.” That is it in a nutshell. It did not say that it was time for a Labour Government.”
“I do not think we can regulate those people very effectively, because they are not going to comply with anybody’s regulations. The only way to deal with those people is to find them, catch them, prosecute them and lock them up.”
“Clearly, right across the piece, we have regulators with responsibility in those five areas. Those regulators are there to regulate bona fide companies, which should do the right thing, although we have to make sure that they do. For instance, if somebody held a database with inappropriate data on it, the Information Commissioner’s Office could easily look at that, and it has significant financial penalties at its disposal, such as 4% of global turnover or a £17 million fine. My hon. Friend the Member for Watford made a plea for a Turing clause, which I am, of course, very happy to look at. I think he was referring to organisations that might not be bona fide, and might actually be looking to undertake nefarious activities in this area.”