Luke Pollard
MP for Plymouth Sutton and Devonport · Labour (Co-op) · United Kingdom
“As the Member of Parliament for Devonport, where we not only base-port but refit Type 23s, I know that many of those ships that have given decades of service are no longer able to provide the capabilities we need.”
“It is unlike the SNP to be so positive about defence, isn’t it? The Type 83 and Type 32 were PowerPoints—there was no budget attached to them. That is why in the defence investment plan we set out a plan for a common combat vessel and a hybrid Navy to fulfil the opportunities that the retirement of the Type 45 presents for us.”
“If the right hon. Gentleman is talking about a salary of up to £1 billion, he is cosplaying as the hon. Member for Clacton (Nigel Farage), isn’t he? Seriously, we are the third-largest cash spender in NATO. At the spending review next year, we will be setting out an increase in defence spending.”
“My hon. Friend really is the Member of Parliament for the Royal Fleet Auxiliary, as she is determined to champion it so frequently. She will have seen in the defence investment plan our commitment to the new generation of fleet solid support ships, and she will have seen the work that this Government have undertaken since 2024 to address…”
“I say seriously to the House that my hon. Friend has been an incredible advocate for Rosyth. I have met him on a large number of occasions, and he has been absolutely determined to talk not just about the potential of Rosyth, but about the professionalism of the men and women who work there and the opportunity for young people to have a c…”
“We inherited a situation where the north-east was the region with the lowest Ministry of Defence spend in the country and we have made it a mission to increase defence spending in the north-east. We have an incredible talent pool in the north-east, with brilliant defence companies both large and small doing brilliant work.”
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“The responsibility and obligation that falls on parliamentarians is to ensure that no other family goes through what Tom’s family have gone through. The hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View has been pursuing that aim with the family for some time, and I act as his assistant in this respect to support the measures he has taken. I would, however, like to add some words of caution. I am concerned that if we give extra responsibilities to the police or the courts system without adequately resourcing them, justice could be further delayed. If steps are to be taken, I would like them to be accompanied by the proper resources, to ensure that doing so does not elongate the process in relation to any cases and that we continue to reinforce the primacy of the courts in this matter.”
“There is precedent here, but that view has not been applied to release under investigation in the same way, so there is a sound argument for looking at whether RUI has changed the social contract—the deal—between the state and victims as to what applies in the event of someone being maimed or seriously hurt when a driver has been under the influence of drugs or alcohol. It is important to look at that issue. The challenge in this debate is not only how we can remember Tom, and give the family who have campaigned so thoroughly, professionally and compassionately in his memory the justice that the courts, through the low-bar sentencing, did not deliver. The challenge is also how we can we prevent this from happening in future.”
“One of the questions that we must ask ourselves in this place is, “To what extent does that privilege apply where a vehicle has been used to either kill or maim someone and the driver has been under the influence of drugs or alcohol?” At that point, it is reasonable for us as Parliament to take a view as to whether there should be a legal ability to prevent that person from driving. Indeed, to a certain extent, we have already taken that view: long before I or my neighbour, the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View, was in this place, Parliament passed legislation that put bail conditions on those individuals.”
“Friend the Member for Neath mentioned one of the remarks of the judge in this case: that “the surest thing” was that the offender would have to live with the consequences. No, the surest thing is that the family will have to live with the consequences for much longer, and with a much deeper sense of pain and loss, than the offender. That is why there is a real difficulty in relation to this issue. My hon. Friend echoed the words of the family: driving is a privilege, not a right.”
“I hope that the Minister will agree to meet the family to discuss this, but I would also be grateful if she would put in a good case for a meeting with the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice. I think there is a cross-Government approach that needs to be adopted here. I mentioned the short sentence. I, too, welcome the increase in the tariff in the sentencing for those people who kill via drink-driving from 14 years to life. However, that did not apply in this case, and I think it is entirely legitimate for any family who have been robbed of the life of their loved one to look at the sentence that has been afforded and say, “Three months and three weeks is not justice.” I have sympathy with the family for the way in which they seek to pursue that aim through the courts, and now through politics as well. My hon.”
“If someone is released under investigation for something that happens many times in the future, there are no such bail conditions attached to a release under investigation status. Therefore, the provisions that exist in law, quite correctly, to limit the behaviour of an individual—in this case, probably to ensure that another crime is not committed in that way—do not apply. From my interpretation, that is effectively why Tom’s law is seeking to backfill and repair some of the legal fabric that has been changed by release under investigation. If the suspect in this case were bailed, I suspect those bail conditions would have been attached. That is one of the difficulties we have in this case.”
“The hon. Member raises a good point. One of the difficulties the Minister has in replying to this debate is that, as a Transport Minister, she will only be able to speak on behalf of the Department for Transport. However, this issue stretches across the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice. The 11 months that Tom’s family had to wait for justice is far too long. That is because of pressures on the court service and the police. As much as I would love to put the responsibility on the Minister herself, it is the responsibility of other Departments. We need to see a joined-up approach to make this work. Release under investigation is a particular problem that is delaying justice. It is delaying justice in cases like this and in many others. That is why the police and the authorities can attach those bail conditions to individuals.”
“That is not necessarily a licence suspension, but an application, albeit temporary until a court process, of penalty notices or penalty point endorsements.”
“It is welcome news that the Minister’s Department is looking into this matter. I think she made a commitment for a consultation, and it is welcome that it will be included. Her officials may say that the suspension of a driving licence should be a Home Office matter, but in her Department, would she look at penalty points notices? As it stands, someone who causes death by careless driving with alcohol and drugs above the limit can be subject to three to 11 points on their licence, and over that their licence is removed. The option of suspended penalty points means they can be applied to the licence in the period before conviction, which is another means of achieving what Tom’s law seeks to do.”
“Devonport is the UK’s premier naval base and dockyard. Will the Secretary of State present plans to recycle the 13 rotting nuclear submarines that are tied up alongside it? That would not only be good for the environment but good for Devonport, freeing up dock space, and good for jobs as well.”
“It has transformed that community just by changing one pub. I have also bought shares in its latest effort, to reopen the Millennium building—a former nightclub and cinema, and the scene of far too many antics to discuss in polite company—as a new hub for live music, with a brewery, a shop and restaurants, and a place for people to come together. That building has stood derelict for decades, and it is a co-operative and community venture that is bringing it back to life. That share issue is still open, if the hon. Member for Wycombe wants to show his support. I know that Nudge would welcome a final push to help get it over the line. However, it is not just Nudge that has done brilliant things using co-operative share issues. I also praise Plymouth Energy Community.”
“In the south-west, we have long believed in the power of co-operatives to strengthen our economy. In Plymouth, we have co-operatives such as Nudge Community Builders, which works to transform life chances in one of our poorest communities—not just in Plymouth, but in Britain—by rebuilding and refurbishing buildings along Union Street and Stonehouse. It is transforming that community by not only improving the buildings, but creating spaces for start-ups, social enterprises and community services. It is helping to restore pride in something by allowing people to invest in their own community through that effort. I bought shares in Nudge’s co-operative share issue to help reopen the notorious pub The Clipper, on Union Street, taking it from a 24-hour boozer to an amazing community space.”
“Doubling the size of the co-operative sector would lead to more sustainable, greener and better jobs in all our communities, more people having a stake in the businesses they work for and, as we heard from the hon. Member for Wycombe, better productivity and better outcomes at the end of it. It is a win-win-win situation. There are only two things that hold it back: a view that the market will provide for itself—in which case, let us remove the legislative blocks that sometimes discriminate against co-operative and mutual businesses—or a view that it will not provide the type of future we need. I do not see a future that does not include more mutual and co-operative businesses. That is what we heard from the hon. Member for Wycombe, and I hope that is what we will hear from the Minister when he gets to his feet.”
“When workers have a stake in their own business, they can contribute to the decisions that are made; they can see that businesses can be better run, more sustainable and better focused on not only the product and service they offer to their customers, but the people who work in that business to make it better every day. Co-operatives provide an opportunity to renew our high streets and villages and to give everyday people a say in how their local community works. The opportunity to expand the co-operative and mutual sector is immense. I would like to see the Government adopt Labour’s policy of doubling the size of the co-operative sector. It is a bold, challenging ambition; however, if Ministers put in place the right conditions to make it happen, it is also achievable.”
“Those of us in the Co-operative party take every opportunity to put forward the huge advantages of co-operative and mutual business models. We have seen huge changes and progress in recent years, both under the last Labour Government and, where campaigns have been successful, under the current Government. However, we are seeing the context change; we are seeing a hollowing out of our communities and a more precarious environment for businesses. However, we are seeing no less entrepreneurism and no less drive and creativity from our businesses. People are now looking at alternative models to organise their business to make a difference. When businesses fail, it is often because those in charge have become removed from the realities of the shop floor. That is where mutuals and co-operatives have an advantage over other business models.”
“Thank you, Dame Angela. You will be pleased to hear that I will not inflict 20 minutes of Plymouth co-operatives on everyone. However, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr Baker) for introducing this debate. It is really important that co-operatives and mutuals have a voice in Parliament; that is why, for the past many decades, we have had a Labour and Co-operative group of MPs that has been making the case for co-operatives. I am proud to be a Co-operative party MP; those are not just some extra syllables in my job title. Being a Co-operative MP is not just a label; it is an instruction to campaign for mutuals, fairness, co-operation, doing business in a fairer way and sharing wealth and power.”
“It really is a model for others to follow.”
“It has opened Plymouth’s first solar farm in Ernesettle and it is about to apply for planning permission for a second solar farm at Chelson Meadow—next to Saltram House—which is the scene of Plymouth’s largest landfill. I will support that share issue when it opens, too. CATERed is another superb example of a co-operative in Plymouth. Faced with the challenge of poor school food, the Labour council brought together food provision into a co-operative, which our primary schools and some secondary schools have now bought into. That provides not only healthy, nutritious food but an investment in the staff who provide that food—in the kitchen and serving—which is unbelievable. What is important is that those staff feel valued, the food is healthier, the profits are reinvested and there is not a turkey twizzler in sight.”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman for his enthusiasm. I am really passionate about this issue, and people in Plymouth that have invested are passionate too. It is not just about investing. Co-operative share issues have not had the press they deserve, because it is not just that putting that 50 quid in a co-operative share issue or a mutual will return more financial benefit than leaving it in a bank where interest rates are low. It is about the social purpose—the social multiplier—and the economic multiplier that will come from that investment. It is taking place not only in Plymouth, but right around the country. Plymouth Energy Community has funded solar panels on the roofs of our city’s primary schools and our largest leisure centre, as well as on the top floor of all our car parks.”
“We could consider a new duty on banks to encourage greater lending to co-operatives and to ensure banks are held to account over the types of businesses they support. There is sometimes discrimination in funding to co-operatives because their corporate structures can be a little bit different, a little bit challenging. However, the social benefit and opportunities that come from that investment can be even bigger than investing in the usual type of business models. There is an opportunity there to make that happen.”
“It is time now to move mutual and co-operative policies into the mainstream, not only as niche providers but as an alternative to mainstream provision that would give those mainstream business models a run for their money. To do that, some of those legislative and, in particular, financial resourcing barriers need to be removed. There is an opportunity to go through them progressively and remove them, to make sure that we are getting there. Creating a co-operative development agency in England, following the lead of Wales, would make a big difference. We could put new duties on Governments to promote the growth of co-operatives, not just of businesses. We could look at new capital instruments, such as a national co-operative-held investment bank, which would allow better investment in UK co-operatives.”
“My hon. Friend is exactly right. There is an energy around this policy area not only because it returns good outcomes but because it is the scene of so many good ideas and so much innovation. That innovation is often at the periphery, because co-operatives and mutuals are not mainstreamed in the way that they really need to be. There is not an accelerator that moves those ideas into the mainstream. As co-operators, many of us are quite nice, decent people, and mutualism has a reputation of being nice and caring for and lovely, which often means that we are quite comfortable sitting in a corner. As an economy, we often say, “We have got a fair mutual side; it’s over there in the corner.” We know it is important because we put it in the corner where we put all our important things.”
“The basic bank accounts that the Treasury has been promoting via businesses will not be enough to replace the service provided by Plymouth credit union, and I encourage the Minister to look at what happens when credit unions fail.”
“Our Plymouth credit union is on the verge of closure, which I worry will deny access to finance for people on the margins of finance and society in particular. The City of Plymouth Credit Union’s office is opposite my office, on Frankfort Gate, and at the end of the week, the queues that come out of that credit union show a number of individuals who always face challenges—not only economic and financial challenges but challenges elsewhere. We must also be aware of the closure of credit unions. I do not know what will replace the provision the Plymouth credit union gives to some of those most marginalised people, but we need to find an alternative.”
“I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that. Long before I had grey hair and was elected to this place, I wrote an article for the Co-operative party about co-operative insurgency—the idea that a harder, bolder form of co-operation could also come out of a purposeful building out of a co-operative shareholding in business models. To follow my hon. Friend’s idea, it is not only about creating a co-operative or mutual from day one; it can be about mutualising a business model. Even a small, co-operatively held component of a big publicly listed company could help drive and direct an ethos and culture change within that business, which could produce better outcomes for staff and the overall business model. However, I am afraid that not all is well in our co-operative sector in Plymouth.”
“My challenge to those who speak about co-operatives is that we should talk up rural and coastal co-operatives as well. I am very pleased that the Co-operative party has started a new commission around rural co-operatives, to feed into Labour’s rural review, that will make the case for further investment in rural co-operatives as distinct from urban co-operatives and the challenges that they face. The future is bright for mutuals and co-operatives, and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.”
“In our rural communities, we see an amazing penetration of successful co-operative businesses, providing support at scale not only for rural housing and, in particular, agriculture, as we heard from the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), but for fishing. Greenhook Fishing in Plymouth is our brand-new co-operative. It is pioneering sail-powered fishing in Plymouth, and is bringing back the Plymouth Hooker, a fantastic old-style fishing boat. It also provides opportunities for people who have left prison and veterans to be re-trained in new skills, not only in boat construction but in fishing. Greenhook Fishing is following a model that is present in many other coastal communities and rural communities —of co-operatives being successful, getting on with it and never identifying as a co-operative.”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I hope that it will be, but I fear it may not. The challenge is that the future is very uncertain, especially for smaller credit unions that do not have the financial backing of a larger credit union. The social benefit that they provide is considerable, and it is worth the Treasury looking at that. My final point is a challenge to those people who speak about co-operatives and mutuals, like myself and everyone in this place. Often the debate around co-operatives and mutuals is an urban-themed one; as an MP for a city, most of my examples have been urban themed. However, there is enormous potential in telling the story of the success of the mutuals and co-operatives in our rural and coastal communities.”
“Homophobia is a lived reality for thousands of gay people up and down the country every single day. These avoidable murders of gay young men will be broadcast around the country, and LGBT people will be looking at the Minister’s response and saying, “They do not value my life because I am gay.” A full public independent inquiry will give LGBT people the reassurance that something will be done to stop this ever happening again. Will the Minister reconsider his refusal to have that independent inquiry?”
“It is not just cross-Humber, as there is cross-Tamar support from Devon and Cornwall MPs. In Plymouth we have lost two trawlerman in recent years: one on the Solstice and one on the Laura Jane. In remembering them as individuals and the risks they take in going to sea, may I ask my hon. Friend to use this opportunity to talk about the need to invest in improved safety such as the further roll-out of the Plymouth life jacket scheme? A personal locator beacon is included on the life jackets, which takes the search out of “search and rescue” if a person goes overboard.”
“We will lose the essential spirit of the west country. That is why we need a focus on first homes, not second homes. I hope the Minister will respond to those points. We need to put first homes first and second homes second.”
“In particular, that should focus on the key workers who keep our communities alive—the nurses, the shop workers, the teachers, the care workers, the farm workers who are now being priced out of our communities. Finally, we need to introduce a discount lock for future renters and purchasers of those properties, to ensure that affordable first homes are not lost in the market blizzard of second home and holiday let purchases after that first family moves on, staircasing the benefits, not losing them. That is why we need a focus on first homes, not second homes. We need to be bold, because our communities are being dominated by a second-homes approach. If we do not act soon, the south-west’s amazing attractiveness will be lost. Shops will not have anyone to work in them. Care homes will not have anyone to support the people inside.”
“Thirdly, let us create a “last shop in the village” fund, so that councils gain the power to introduce an affordable community infrastructure levy on empty and underused second homes, to support the last shop in the village, the last pharmacy, the last post office, the last pub and the last bus. Hollowed-out communities do not sustain essential community infrastructure and services. We need to find a new way to keep them in business. Because people should not need to move away from where they grew up to get a decent job and a home they can afford, I want us to focus, fourthly, on an effort to build first homes, not second homes. That means building more genuinely affordable zero-carbon homes to buy or rent and for social rent, with a preference and priority for local people.”
“First, let us give councils the power to quadruple council tax on holiday lets and empty second homes. We need an economic disincentive against keeping houses empty, denying local people homes. Secondly, let us introduce a licensing scheme for second homes, holiday homes and Airbnb lets, to understand the full extent and to set a minimum floor on the number of homes in any community that must be for local people and not for second homes, holiday homes or Airbnb lets. The minimum floor should be 51%, meaning that no community can be dominated by folks who do not live there. Then let us give councils the power to adjust that threshold upwards, to suit local circumstances—60%, 75% or 90%—because it is time that we called time on the takeover of the south-west by absent landlords.”
“That is why I have worked with Councillor Jayne Kirkham, leader of the Labour group on Cornwall County Council, and Councillor Tudor Evans, leader of the opposition on Plymouth City Council, to develop our “First Homes not Second Homes” approach. That is a very simple, five-point radical plan, designed to tackle the housing crisis that is facing so many rural and coastal communities because of the surging number of second homes and holiday and Airbnb lets in the south-west, especially since the pandemic hit. The region most affected by second homes is rightly where the solution to fix the problem should be first applied. Our “First Homes not Second Homes” approach is a simple one, which I hope that the Minister and my hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Matthew Pennycook) will be able to support.”
“We need to see proper action, and nowhere is that more important than in the south-west, where more than a quarter of England’s second homes are, according to 2019 data. Our rural and coastal villages are being hollowed out, and local people are priced out of moving or buying within the community where they grew up. In cities such as Plymouth, homes are being flipped to become Airbnb properties, damaging our local hotel trade and robbing local people of a home of their own. I want to see more people come to the south-west—it is a great place to be—but housing policy should put local people first. We need a focus on first homes, not second homes.”
“It is a pleasure to see the hon. Member for St Ives (Derek Thomas), who has called such an important debate, especially for the south-west. The holiday industry is important to us, but so is our housing market. Our housing market in the south-west is broken, and needs fixing. The pandemic has turbocharged our housing crisis. We not only have a housing crisis; we have a homes crisis. In many cases, there are enough houses but not enough homes for people to live in. Too many tenants have been turfed out to make way for holiday lets and second homes, which can sit empty for much of the year. The low-wage economy means that many people cannot afford to live in the communities where they work. The sell-off of council homes means that there is no longer that safety net for far too many local families, and that is not good enough.”
“Russia’s actions are deliberate, not accidental, and they are against a clear strategy and sequence. The threat to Ukraine’s sovereignty is clear, but so is the threat to our NATO allies in the Baltic states. Will the Minister set out very clearly that the article 5 protection of our NATO allies in the Baltic states stands firm and will be unquestionable, and that Britain will not renege on our enhanced forward presence, which is protecting the Baltic states from any Russian aggression?”
“I would like the Minister, when she gets to her feet, to explain what lessons have been learned, especially from the details of the fishing boat that was detained having been left off the database provided to the French by the UK authorities. A little bit of honesty would go a long way in supporting that.”
“Many small exporters have simply stopped exporting—stopped selling into our EU markets. Problems remain, especially with live bivalve molluscs around the south-west: although some waters have been reclassified as grade A—the hon. Member for Totnes (Anthony Mangnall), from further up the Devon coast, is very cheerful about that—not all those waters have. Businesses that still fish in grade B waters are unable to export their live bivalve molluscs to markets in the European Union, and I worry whether, after another season of that, there will be any business available for them. That needs to be addressed. The French disputes over the past few months have been difficult for our fishers. They have added extra caution for people going to sea and extra worry about fishing in French waters in particular.”
“I know that the Minister will look kindly on an application made by Plymouth to help us redevelop our own fish market and bring our facilities into the 21st century. That will not only provide better, more cost-effective locations for landing, processing and selling fish, but will make sure that we have a sustainable future for the industry in Plymouth; we are also supporting the industry right around the south-west coast. The National Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations report by former senior DEFRA negotiator Gary Taylor set out the numbers that many of us suspected. There were losses by our fishing industry of £64 million a year. That is not just eating away at margins, but breaking businesses. We need to recognise that exporters have been hit in particular because of the additional red tape and costs, and other problems.”
“I want to give a shout-out to Call4Fish, a super Plymouth initiative that started out on a shoestring budget and is now supporting fishers nationwide to sell their catch directly from the back of their boats. That was thanks to the Seafarers’ Charity and fishmonger hall charities, who helped by putting their confidence in that. It shows that we continue to be pioneers in Plymouth. I would have liked a wee bit more support from DEFRA on that initiative, but there is still time. I am afraid that, when it comes to fishing policy, all is not well. Fishers do feel betrayed, especially over the six to 12 mile promise that was broken. They feel betrayed that much of the money that has been promised to them in redeveloped opportunities has not come through.”
“It has been a huge success, and we should continue to encourage its continued nationwide roll-out because it will save lives. I pay tribute to the RNLI. It provides support for our fishers 24/7, all year round. In particular, I thank the people who have dedicated their entire lives to it. Milf—or Dave Milford, as he is better known—has given 32 years’ service to the RNLI at Plymouth. The fishing industry’s gratitude to him is echoed by me and many others whose lives he has saved. He also has an amazing nickname, which helps. Coastguards and the National Coastwatch Institution, which my stepmother is a member of, also do a super job all year round. In the pandemic we saw the fishing industry hardest-hit, not only by a botched Brexit deal, but by the closure of the export and domestic markets.”
“Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) that we have started our time as an independent coastal state quite poorly. That is because of a botched Brexit deal, because of overpromising to our fishers and because, frankly, when it came to the crunch, fishers were regarded as disposable by the negotiators. They must not ever be regarded as disposable. This industry matters. Fishing does take too many people; it is a dangerous profession. We need to remember people at home and abroad who lose their lives to accidents at sea or are injured. Progress is being made on safety. I would like to praise Clive Palfrey, RNLI coxswain and former fisherman, for his work taking the search out of search and rescue by starting to put locator beacons on lifejackets as part of the Plymouth lifejacket scheme, which the Minister supported with a grant.”
“I congratulate the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) on securing this debate. There should be an annual fisheries debate in the parliamentary calendar, ahead of the December Fisheries Council, so that we can give as much power to the Minister’s elbow as possible to ensure that the deal that she goes to negotiate, albeit from outside the room, is as good for our fisheries as it can be. Fishing matters. It matters in Plymouth, where there are nearly 1,000 jobs that rely on not only the catching but the processing sectors and the associated trades—supply chains and exporters. Fishing matters because it is part of our identity. Plymouth is no different from other coastal communities that I see represented around the room, in that we want to see our fishers get a better deal than they have so far. I agree with the hon.”
“I would like the Government to have a strategy with a date by which fishing will become net zero—not just because they are buying offsets for the larger companies, but because they are decarbonising their propulsion and fishing in more sustainable ways. I have posed quite some challenges there, but I have enjoyed my chance to serve on the Front Bench, and I warn the Minister that I will continue to ask difficult questions from the Back Benches about fishers, especially for those from Plymouth.”
“I would like the Minister to recognise that the absence of a deal with Norway on fishing in distant waters is causing real pressure—not for fishers in Plymouth, but certainly for the fishers that I met when I went to Hull to see the distant water fleet there. There is a real concern that the lack of a deal with Norway will collapse that part of the sector, which is a proud part of not only Hull’s fishing past, but its present and future. Finally, I would like to know the Government’s plan for net zero for fishing. Each and every time our fishing boats go to sea they consume an enormous amount of diesel, pumping a large amount of carbon into the atmosphere.”
“Fishing in the Channel Islands is an important part of the sector; they are part of our big family that has been hit by a botched Brexit deal. I hope that the Minister responds to that point. Turning to the December fisheries council, what are the Minister’s expectations around shared stocks and what is the science that we are asking for in relation to that? Much of the extra promised fish that the Government made a lot of in their announcement is paper fish: it only swims on spreadsheets. It does not exist in the sea; it was a fabrication and a fiction, and fishers know it. How can we ensure that any deal that may come out of the December fisheries council that affects our shared stocks will be based on science and will be catchable? What are we doing in relation to non-quota species? There is a real concern about how some of that sits.”
“We are living in a climate and ecological emergency, and that matters, because it challenges us to do things differently from how we have done them before. That is one of the reasons why the sense of outrage about river pollution—river sewage—has been so intense. I agree with the right hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller), who said that facts are important. I agree with her in that respect, and I think the facts of river pollution are sobering. Not one English river is in a healthy condition, and not one meets good chemical standards. England has the worst river pollution in Europe. There were 400,000 discharges of raw sewage into our rivers and seas last year. These are scary facts, but—”
“This has been a good debate so far, and one that has reflected the strength of feeling in all our communities, no matter which party represents them. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) for opening this debate in such a coherent and clear way. A lot of people feel strongly about this topic, including the 207 people from Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport who have signed the petition, and that is testament to the campaigners, who have raised this issue for quite some time. I am grateful to Ferry Harmer, who organised this petition, but also to campaigners from Surfers Against Sewage, to Feargal Sharkey, to wild swimmers the nation over and to people who just think that this is not right; there are many of them.”